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Hi
Does anyone have a list of shadchanim that work with Toradig/Modern Yeshivish singles from NYC or nearby in their 20’s?
I’ve never heard of Modern Yeshivish. Can anybody define that for me?
Modern Yeshivish means someone that has a solid yeshiva education, is frum, but doesn’t bother with the white shirt/black hat 24/7. I.e. he wears polo shirts, perhaps is in college, etc. Yes, there are many young men like this.
white shirt/black hat 24/7
Does anyone wear a black hat 24/7?
So basically, Yeshivish but not in learning?
yekke2, I guess. That is also what I am looking for. But, I thought were not allowed to post shadchanim on the YWN?
Aren’t you looking for a boy in learning?
SYAS and JWed/Frumster are also my main sources of the term. I wouldn’t necessarily describe it as “Yeshivish but not in learning”.
I have seen people use it in different ways, and that is one way that it is used.
But I have also seen it used to mean “Chareidi/Yeshivish in terms of hashkafa and/or sociological setting but modern religiously”
In other words, someone who went to Yeshivas that are considered Chareidi as opposed to Modern Orthodox and has Chareidi Rabbanim, but watches movies,etc, and/or makes a point of partaking in the secular world (as opposed to someone who works simply because he needs a parnassah or is not the type who can sit and learn all day).
Why is everyone ignoring Meno?
Why is nobody answering his question?
Surely one of the most profoundly vital questions to appear in the CR since its inception.
(Alas, Meno, I cannot answer you as I have never worn a black hat.)Forgive me please Rebshidduch 💖 I never found a shadchan for you. I don’t know what happened to that and I’ve been somewhat MIA.
Not even Abraham Lincoln did.
Meno – I can’t answer you since I have never worn a black hat, but I will tell you that on my friend’s daughter’s birthday when she went around the table giving brachos to everyone, she gave me a bracha that I should be very tznius and wear tights day and night.
I did not say Amen to that bracha.
But given the choice, I think wearing tights 24/7 is easier than wearing a hat 24/7.
Does anyone wear a black hat 24/7?
I think Joseph said he does.
I do
Attention nudnik post from LB about tights: It’s not a good idea for the average person to wear them 24/7 because they cut off blood flow. Certain layers beneath the skin may be obstructed from circulation, and that could lead to further complications of various natures.
Okay back to your regular programming.
Wait. technically if they are loose tights that would be okay but loose tights are not tights and that’s really just pants. I think I just found a non-looping loophole.
Thank you enjoy your meal!
It’s easier to hang upside down with tights on versus a hat on.
Gravity.
What about those hats with a chin strap? Can you wear one with a chin strap? Is velcro muttar on Shabbos?
Yekke2, yes.
“I do”
It must be really hard to sleep that way. I think I’ll stick with the tights.
In other words, someone who went to Yeshivas that are considered Chareidi as opposed to Modern Orthodox and has Chareidi Rabbanim, but watches movies,etc, and/or makes a point of partaking in the secular world (as opposed to someone who works simply because he needs a parnassah or is not the type who can sit and learn all day).
That sounds more accurate. Those who go to work because they cannot stay in Kollel for one reason or another are not in any way less Yeshivish. Your description does sound more ‘modern’, but less ‘yeshivish’. The way you put it, somebody from a Yeshivish background who is not Yeshivish himself?
So basically, Yeshivish but not in learning?
yekke2, I guess. That is also what I am looking for.
Aren’t you looking for a boy in learning?
Yekke2, yes.
Huh?
I mean that he is “Yeshivish” in terms of his hashkafa. Really “modern Chareidi” would be a better term, but in the US, they don’t use the term Chareidi.
Depending how people use the term “Yeshivish”, some would call him Yeshivish and some wouldn’t. I find that people from Brooklyn often seem to use the term this way, but most people I know from Lakewood would not call this person “Yeshivish.”
My super-Frum friend from Teaneck who considers herself Modern Orthodox would call him Yeshivish (even though he’s less Frum and way more involved in the secular world than she is) because he’s not tzioni, believes in Kollel as a value, and says “Shabbos” instead of “Shabbat”.
Basically, it depends if you are using the term Yeshivish to refer to religious level, hashkafa, or sociology (all of which are legitimate and widely-used definitions).
With apologies to Meno :).
So this doesn’t refer to religious level or haskafah (eg making a point of integrating with Modern World), does refer to sociology.
Correct that it doesn’t refet to religious level and that it does refer to sociology.
I did mean that it does refer to hashkafa, although I see why you understood differently (from what I wrote about integrating with Modern World).
I guess I’ll have to explain better. To some degree, you may be right that it doesn’t refer to hashkafa, but to some degree I may be right that it does. Keep in mind that we are talking about many different people using the term and they are all different (both because all people are different and because all people use terms differently. This term in particular is one that gets used in a variety of ways, and generally, the person himself has to explain what he means.)
This post is long enough – I’ll continue on another post.
I think the reason these people define themselves as Yeshivish even though they are involved in the secular world is that they don’t necessarily see that as a hashkafa. I deliberately wrote “and/or makes a point of participating in the secular world” because that part wouldn’t necessarily apply to all of them.
Even when it does, it is not necessarily because they view it as ideal but rather because it’s important to them personally (any maybe they do view it as less than ideal but that is where they feel they are holding and they are not trying to change in that area).
Even for those who do seem to view it as an ideal, it is often a result of the fact that they are not clearly differentiating between what they consider an ideal and what is just who they are.
Alternatively, there is a difference between their “considering it an ideal to participate in the secular world on some level” and a Torah U’mada hashkafa.
Another possibililty is that they are fooling themselves and there really is not much difference between their hashkafa and a Torah U’Mada hashkafa.
The bottom line in all of the above is that they show some interest in the secular world yet their Rabbanim are “Chareidi” and they send their kids to “Chareidi” schools.
Also, there are other aspects to hashkafa besides “involvement in the secular world” so they may consider themselves to be hashkafically Chareidi in other ways.
I guess the main point is that if their Rabbanim are Chareidi and they are sending their kids to Chareidi schools, they clearly feel that Chareidi hashkafa is the ideal even if they find it hard to live up to that ideal (whether in their actions or their hashkafos). I do have the impression that this is a common phenomenon in Brooklyn.
I’m curious what England is like since you mentioned that you never heard of this concept before? Are there people who would fit this description? I feel like I have met people from England who seemed to fit this description more of less, but I’m not sure.
England isn’t big enough for so many different types of labels. In America, there are enough of each type to give it a name, find themselves some Rabbanim, open Yeshivos tailor made to their needs. In London, there are not that many high schools. For boys, there are two Yeshivish/Heimish schools [Pardes House and Beis Hamedrash Elyon], another one which less Heimish, less Yeshivish, more anglicised and is a matter of opinion whether it is as Frum [Menorah Grammar], and then one school which is the closest England has to Modern Orthodox and plenty of people in the school don’t keep Shabbos [Hasmonean]. (From what I understand, there are differrent sections in the school for different levels of Yiddishkeit, ranging from non-existent to above average.)
Although we have all different types of Yidden here, they are labelled a lot less. Another point is, because we don’t have the numbers, everyone is forced into some level of conformity one way or the other. Having bigger numbers justifies people to live the way they want.
There are definitely people like you mentioned. (Of course, the description was slightly vague and can apply to different levels, but we have those levels too.)
I think it’s only because of shidduchim that all these new labels got invented. “Modern Yeshivish”, “Modern Orthodox Machmir”, “Modern Orthodox Liberal”, “Modern Orthodox middle-of-the-road” and “Carlebachian” are all pretty new inventions.
When and where I grew up you were either Yeshivish or not-Frum. I thought my family was strange because we weren’t either one, but at the same time I didn’t think that anyone was labeling us, and I didn’t really see too many differences (although that may be more a reflection on me than anything else).
skald89 – so what would you say makes you modern Yeshivish as opposed to Modern Orthodox Machmir?
I’m not saying there’s no difference – I just want to understand what you consider the difference to be, and if/how it differs from what I wrote.
These artificial groupings of people are commonly used when describing people, and all too often in the shidduch world. Personally, I find these labels offensive, and truly meaningless.
The boy/girl entering shidduch eligibility can be labeled as virtually anything, and this has no real bearing on how he/she will be living life after marriage. How many “learning boys” are truly so? Many try, but cannot sustain the life of dependency, and lack the resources to remain outside the working world. Even more do not really belong there, and should be addressing their parnosoh needs in a Torah and honest way, and taking steps to pursue gainful employment. Yet, such boys are labeled “learning boys” or “yeshivish”, with zero correlation to their actual futures. We would be far more productive if we assessed our shidduch age boys and girls by their midos (I refer specifically to the real midos, not the standard “information” that flows freely when inquiries are made about a shidduch prospect).
The same problem is when we label “hashkafa” as Chareidi, Modern, Machmir, and similar concoctions. These words do not really carry any standard definition, and tell us virtually nothing about the compatibility for a shidduch.
If all this was funny, we might be laughing a lot. But it is a tragic misuse of our intellect.
TLIK – I agree with you that people have to be careful about not getting too caught up in labels. The main places where I see these terms used is on SYAS & JWED & shidduch resumes. In all of those places, people have the opportunity to explain what THEY PERSONALLY mean by the term.
Personally, even though I describe myself as Yeshivish, I won’t write off someone who considers himself “modern Yeshivish” or “Modern Orthodox Machmir” without first clarifying what he means by that. However, if someone checks off that he is “Modern Orthodox Liberal”, I KNOW that he is not for me. And honestly, the “modern Yeshivish” guys are rarely for me. Even the “Modern Orthodox Machmir guys are rarely for me. So labels do seem to mean something, even though one should be open-minded enough to look beyond the label at the person.
skald89 – the people I know who call themselves Modern Orthodox Machmir are very Frum and are very serious about learning. Ofen they are more Frum than those who call themselves Modern Yeshivish. But of course there is a broad range both of people who call themselves Modern Orthodox Machmir as well as those who call themselves Modern Yeshivish.
It seems to me that the main difference is sociological. The people who call themselves Modern Orthodox Machmir are usually people who grew up in “Modern Orthodox” communities, and the Modern Yeshivish people are people who grew up in “Yeshivish” communities. This can end up having an impact on hashkafa since they may follow different Rabbanim and send their kids to different kinds of schools.
In terms of the moderator’s comment, I guess she/he will have to answer. I understood your comment the way you are saying, but I can see how it can be read either way.
Skald89 first wrote “What we consider non-jewish music, is fine with me.”, and then “movies and tv shows are fine” so I think that on the way hand, he may have thought it was clear he also meant that movies and tv are “fine WITH HIM”, but the moderator did not think that was clear.
I’m not expressing an opinion either way (and I can see both sides) – just clarifying where I think you’re both coming from.
LU -“SYAS & JWED”
I don’t use web sites, but Shadchonim, like Shadcan Mr. Sholom Blatter!
The pigeonholes are multiplying and at the same type getting smaller and smaller.
One morning we’ll wake up and find that each one of us is sitting all alone confined to his (or her) own lonely little pigeonhole.I also don’t know why a moderator had to add comment to my view of modern yeshivish.
As a macho’ah against any statements that those things are “fine” to you or anyone else.
I started off by saying that it was all my own opinion.Outside of the first line of the first paragraph, I don’t see that applying to your post. Either way, whether it is your opinion or not, it is not appropriate to leave a misleading statement such as that one without a very clear disclaimer. Matters of halacha are not subject to our opinions.
LU – it didn’t matter if it was fine with him, or fine. It is false and needed to be stated so.
Mod 29 – oh, sure. I was responding to Mod 100’s understanding of the comment (or at least my understanding of Mod 100’s understanding of the comment).
If your point was to make a macho’ah against the idea of referring to movies as “fine” or “fine for me” (as opposed to simply saying “I watch movies”), then I understand.
I just reread the thread and I think I may have misunderstood Scald’s post. Were you trying to say that it’s okay with you if the girl watches tv and movies? On SYAS, for the tv/movies question, one of the options is: “possibly” which apparently means that whether or not you watch tv/movies, you won’t necessarily reject someone who does (even if you don’t do so yourself and do consider it assur).
Was that what you meant?
No, he meant that it’s fine to discuss on a date how assur TV and movies are.
Back to the op – I don’t know if I have any names, but I don’t think the moderators would let us list names in any case.
I guess that’s as opposed to those people who consider it assur to even say those words.
I knew a girl who refused to say the “M” word, so I guess she wouldn’t have been a good shidduch for Scald.
LU -“I knew a girl who refused to say the “M” word”
What’s the “M” word?
And what’s wrong with saying it?LU -“SYAS & JWED”
Health: “I don’t use web sites, but Shadchonim, like Shadcan Mr. Sholom Blatter!”Health, I just noticed your post now. I actually had him in mind when I wrote “and shidduch resumes”. That is probably my main source of shidduch resumes.
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