http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/tags/conforming-with-standards YWN Coffee Room » Tag: conforming with standards - Recent Posts en-US Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:41:36 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/search.php http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/5#post-26388 Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:36:18 +0000 ujm 26388@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>josh, i'm not sure where you're trying to go with that, but that is as nonsensical as going to your nearest mo leader and telling him you want to form a committee to attack all women who don't utilize mixed swimming pools. that scenerio and the one you described are as equally unlikely either to be suggested or to be practiced. actually you're scenario is far more unlikely. what you describe at best sounds like the type of story peddled by anti-semitic rags of the nature of haaretz and ynet when they are seeking an avenue to attack chareidim. it can't even be described as an exaggeration, as it doesn't happen anywhere but in their hate-filled minds. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-26380 Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:27:23 +0000 Josh31 26380@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>ujm: Try this. Go to your nearest Charedi Torah leader and tell him you want to form a Tznius Patrol to attack local women not dressed properly. If you are a womean, also tell him you want to start wearing a Burqa. If you are a man tell him you want your wife in a Burqa. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-26353 Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:26:59 +0000 ujm 26353@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>josh, you are correct about that in the sense that "if it were not for YU, there would be tens of thousands that would be lost to Torah Judaism" in that many of those Yidden would not be frum at all, and YU is a much better alternative to being frei. Where you are not correct is that halacha itself requires that halacha be enforced. I don't know whatever gave you the idea that "there is widespread agreement in Orthodox Jewish circles" otherwise. As I said, halacha itself requires that it be enforced. I have no idea what you mean "those who adopt extreme levels" but kol hakovod to those that adapt extreme levels of tznius for themselves. May many more do so as well. Those who are on the madreiga on maintaining extreme levels of tznius are a zchus and an encouragement for the rest of us. More power to them and may we all pick up a little bit from them. It is an aveira gamur when people mock those who adapt chumros. I am tired of those in the mo crowd (and there is no other way to put it) that say there is too many chumras, etc. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-26332 Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:43:29 +0000 Josh31 26332@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>More bashing of YU.<br /> If it were not for YU, there would be tens of thousands that would be lost to Torah Judaism.<br /> When I said above "most zealous in the area of Tznius" I was referring to those who take it upon themselves to enforce Tznius on others, and those who adopt extreme levels to call attention to themselves. There is widespread agreement in Orthodox Jewish circles that religious enforcement in inappropriate nowadays. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25950 Fri, 09 Jan 2009 14:34:46 +0000 Chuck Schwab 25950@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Josh: Apparently you prefer the hate-mongering YU'niks who have a dime a dozen blogs who's entire geshmak in living is to attack Raabonim, Gedolim and plain ordinary Torah observant Yidden as well as various chumros etc. The fact of the matter is those Jews who are stringent with tznios are also stringent with Choshen Mishpat as well.</p> <p>gavra_at_work: When left-of-center people like yourself try to shut up anyone who they disagree with, like you did in a previous thread telling someone to not post anything in the thread after you offered your diatribe, you discredit yourself and your entire left-of-center philosophy. </p> <p>No one here, not a single poster, said every Jewish woman must stop driving. Not one. Its the mo types that cannot tolerate that there are Kehilos Kedoshim that uphold these lofty standards as per the directives of their Gedolim. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25838 Fri, 09 Jan 2009 08:36:54 +0000 gavra_at_work 25838@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>When the "The Big One"'s of the world start making letzonas and chozek of the Acheinu Bnei Yisroel for Deciding that anyone who is not like them is a rosha, by calling us "extremists", "Taliban", "Yishmaelim", "going to Gehennom", etc. etc. we stand up proudly and say "Yes, we do still have emunas chachomim. We do not make up our own halachas based on our feelings or the latest chumrah trend, we ask our Rav." </p> <p>Sorry, couldn't help myself, even though I try not to respond to the flamer/troll. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25796 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:38:27 +0000 Josh31 25796@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>The YWN blogs are getting a wide reputation of having hard kanoim (zealots). This topic brings out the real hardliners.<br /> As a matter of fact, religious zealotry is ascendant worldwide and we are not immune to this trend.<br /> Chasidic customs that for generations were implemented in a very civilized way are now getting into the wrong hands.<br /> And I do notice a pattern that many of the most zealous in the area of Tznius are very Meikel (lenient) in areas of Choshen Mishpat (interpersonal relationships). </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25708 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:07:07 +0000 The Big One 25708@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Zalman, Yasher Koach for that beautiful Torah! All those Gemora's, Poiskim, Meforshim.</p> <p>intellegent, Thank you for your sane comments.</p> <p>dd, It is truly disgusting that someone who claims to be a Jew would denigrate Bnei Torah who uphold tznius with irresponsible terms like yishmaelim, frummies, taliban, extremist, etc. You truly need to do some introspection. Yes, it very much does have relevance halacha lmaaisa, your inability to understand it not withstanding.</p> <p>Rabbosai, the point of all the Shulchon Orach and Rambam and the Gemora's is not that ladies cannot go out. If there is a tachlis and they must go out, they can. Even if they have a valid reason to go out every day. But they must minimize it to the times that it is a necessity and not stam to go out. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25668 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:06:19 +0000 The Big One 25668@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>When the dd's of the world start making letzonas and chozek of the Acheinu Bnei Yisroel for keeping tznius as perscribed by our Rabbonim, by calling us "extremists", "Taliban", "Yishmaelim", "frummies", etc. etc. we stand up proudly and say "Yes, we do still have emunas chachomim." </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25591 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:09:57 +0000 dd 25591@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Whenever I wonder how our cousins, bnei yishmael in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan can be so extreme in their customs, I come to Yeshiva World and realize that some of us are only a step or two away from that.</p> <p>For the life of me, I can't understand this thread. I understand the original post as a sociological question about how some communities can have such rules. But to see that so many people here take it seriously as having any possible relevence to halacha lema'aseh is baffling.</p> <p>I did notice that a number of posters asked about the consistency of kollel and women staying at home. None of the usual gang of kannaim here bothered to answer. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25585 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:59:13 +0000 gavra_at_work 25585@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>intellegent:</p> <p>whether women should drive or not. you seemed to be saying no, and then turned around and clarified. If you were refering to something else, as we agree, you were not clear, and I apologize.</p> <p>I think the quote is refering to free time avalible (more now) as opposed to "Kol Kavod" being due to "the times" vs. derech bas yisroel. "Kol Kavod" is a Hanhaga that does not change with the times. What is considered "respectful" (and a husband MUST be respectful to his wife) does change with the person (as per expectations).</p> <p>Reminds me of what someone else posted a while back (don't remember who):</p> <p>"The man is the head of the house, but the woman is the neck. And she can turn the head any way she wants." </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25573 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:36:35 +0000 intellegent 25573@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>"and the fact that for 3,000 years women were treated a certain way, was not always due to halacha, but to the tenor of the times."</p> <p>I think it is highly improper to criticize previous generations in this way. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you really mean to say.</p> <p>gavra_at_work<br /> I'm not sure what you were referring to, opposite of what? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25520 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 15:16:58 +0000 Josh31 25520@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Lets get back to the orginal question from Mrs. Beautiful:<br /> "Is it appropriate for women to drive? My husband claims not, but I dont see a difference if the woman is in the driver's seat or the front passenger seat..."</p> <p>You and your husband need to discuss with your own Rov. Coffee room is unable to resolve without asking for details (such as financial) that do not belong in coffee room. For example, a Rov may advise a financially secure couple to adopt a certain stringency and strongly discourage another couple from doing likewise. This is why extrapolating from published “questions and answers” by famous leaders is improper unless we know all the details of the original questioner. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25488 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:25:42 +0000 gavra_at_work 25488@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>intellegent:</p> <p>You were not clear before (seemed you said the opposite), but thank you for clarifying. </p> <p>I agree 100% that Jewish women in prior generations were treated with respect (which is the torah way)(and much better than the other women btw), and should be treated with respect today as well. If they wish to drive, why not? (assuming their rav has not stated it is "assur", of course). </p> <p>Postscript: "Kol Kavod" is a "Hanhaga", not an "Issur". </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25474 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:47:19 +0000 intellegent 25474@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I have a drivers licence and I go out of the house much more often than twice a month. (at least I should)</p> <p> I saw something in Nefesh Chaya (a hebrew sefer that is a compilation of speeches from R' shamshon Pinkes a"h). I think he says that it used to be that the house was a place of kedusha. Nowadays, that is not so women go out to look for something elsewhere. </p> <p>Times are different. It's true and certain things are different because of that. (I think women nowadays would go into deep depression if they were to stay home all the time except for once in a while) But some people are connotating that in previous generations women were mistreated and I think that is extremely wrong. They were treated the torah way and we don't have to come with our pea size brains compared to those of previous generations and "correct" their wrong doings. That is what I am trying to bring out, I don't know if I am clear. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25471 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:44:00 +0000 Josh31 25471@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Some customs are clearly incompatible with each other. Women not driving and men in Kollel is impossible, unless they have a huge trust fund.</p> <p>Communities in which women do not drive are those in which they never started driving and men are expected to provide the total family income and run all errands needing a car.</p> <p>Nothing will push people away from keeping Torah and Mitzvos more than pushing impossible ideals.</p> <p>Chassidic customs were intended to draw people towards Judaism, not create impractical barriers to living.</p> <p>A woman who actually drives will feel "jailed" if she is suddenly told that she can no longer drive.<br /> If the hardliners are triumphant and impose a full raft of impractical Chumros (stringencies), we will have a breakaway from Judaism (G-d forbid) worse than the Haskalah triggered breakaway 150 years ago in Europe. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25462 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:18:56 +0000 oomis1105 25462@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>"The Shulchan Aruch, Rambam, etc. (amongst the other varied sources) is halacha lmaaisa. I apologize in advance for your MO sensibilities that are in sync with Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug and Susan B. Anthony, rather than the Chofetz Chaim, the Chazon Ish, and the Steipler Gaon. Its just too bad that you view 3,000 years of glorious Jewish history as "women were totally subservient to men, and NOT treated at equal partners in their marriages." For us Torah-based traditionalist, we will continue living in the ways of our holy zeidas and bubbes, as they have since Matan Sinai. "</p> <p>I stand by what I said before. I personally have nothing in common with the hashkafos of Ms. Steinem and Abzug, despite what you think. I find their views to be as stident and filled with self-righteous indignation as your own.You know nothing whatsoever about me, and the fact that for 3,000 years women were treated a certain way, was not always due to halacha, but to the tenor of the times. If you cannot see that, there is no further dialogue between you and me on this issue. We live in a time when we have modern conveniences (sometimes more like INconveniences), and the halacha reflects that evolution, as the rabbonim gain a greater understanding of how things work, i.e. electricity. Perhaps women did not drive wagons, though clearly they rode on camels, which could be considered as driving (before you protest, WHERE was Rochel Emainu sitting when her father came looking for the teraphim?). So it is not an issue of driving. It may have been less tsniusdig in the alte heim for women to drive a wagon in the open (though I cannot recall that women needed to do that driving, as they were homebound due to the nature of raising of their families when their husbands worked the land or did other jobs). But it surely is not untsniusdig for them to drive an auto, in which they are so encased, you cannot always tell if a man or woman is driving. In any case, do you also have a halachic objection to them riding a bike? What about walking in the street? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25460 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:03:38 +0000 gavra_at_work 25460@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>intellegent:</p> <p>That is not to say they should be in the street/Shuk! That falls under "Kol Kavod". Driving is a personal thing with no interaction.</p> <p>If you are from EY, as we have seen (in the news with the bochrim kicked out of yeshiva) the Gedolim there don't allow men to drive, so there it is some other sort of svorah. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25459 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:58:11 +0000 gavra_at_work 25459@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>As before:</p> <p>I am Moche for the Kavod of Oomis' Rav, who is a Talmid Chacham and a Yarei Shomayim.</p> <p>PS. Thank you mod either way. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25455 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:31:08 +0000 gavra_at_work 25455@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>intellegent:</p> <p>Of course if your Rav asks you not to drive, Kol Hakavod.</p> <p>Personally, I dont understand the minhag issue. How could someone have a minhag for their wife not to drive? (unless it was not to have a woman as a Baal Agalah, which is irrelevent to driving a car) :-) </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25453 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:28:33 +0000 gavra_at_work 25453@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>intellegent:</p> <p>And women driving is an example. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25449 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:18:13 +0000 gavra_at_work 25449@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Mod: I meant all references (Zalmans &#38; Oomis). If you leave theirs, please leave mine as well. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25427 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:33:55 +0000 SJSinNYC 25427@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Intellegent, with all due respect, quoting sources does NOT mean that Zalman has his <em>hashkofos intact despite modern propoganda.</em></p> <p>How many women nowadays do you know who don't visit friends? How many do you know who only go grocery shopping 1-2X a month? With refridgeration available, we should be able to go out <strong>less</strong> not more! Remember, we don't pasken by everything written in the gemara - there are so many arguments and opinions in there, if we followed everything we couldnt possibly manage it! Some are physical impossibilites. (not sure if I am being clear here...just basically that the gemara isnt the bottom line - we have to follow the bottom line halacah)</p> <p>Its unfortunate that many people have pledged to oust "modern propaganda" when as you yourself said on one thread, you couldn't find anything halachically wrong with what I say. (don't remember if you said you couldnt find anything or that you almost never find anything) </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25426 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:31:25 +0000 intellegent 25426@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p><em>Also, do you have electricity? a Fridge? Internet? You are already not "living in the ways of our holy zeidas and bubbes, as they have since Matan Sinai". You sound like you want the Jews to be Amish following Halacha, not Jews (Who invented "when in Rome, do as the Romans do").</em></p> <p>Modern technology that works with the torah is fine. We don't open a light on shabbos but we use lights. No one is saying that we have to live exactly the way Avraham lived but we can't change our hashkofos because modern times are "different". </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25420 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:11:07 +0000 NechamaRugelach 25420@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>SAVE THE TREES KEEP WOMEN OFF THE ROAD </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25402 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:49:25 +0000 gavra_at_work 25402@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p><strong> EDITED at the request of the original poster </strong></p> <p>Zalman (if you will respond):</p> <p>You are not new here, so you probably already have an answer to my question:</p> <p>How do you reconcile "Kol Kavod Bas Melech" with Kollel wives working?</p> <p>Also, do you have electricity? a Fridge? Internet? You are already not "living in the ways of our holy zeidas and bubbes, as they have since Matan Sinai". You sound like you want the Jews to be Amish following Halacha, not Jews (Who invented "when in Rome, do as the Romans do").</p> <p>Lastly, with your shittos, what are you doing on the internet? Did you ask your Rav if you could be in the coffeeroom?</p> <p>Get back to me after you ask. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25396 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 08:59:50 +0000 intellegent 25396@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Zalman,<br /> Thanks. It's nice to see some people have their hashkofos intact despite modern propoganda. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25384 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 05:27:20 +0000 intellegent 25384@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>"Sara threw hagar out with Avraham's bechor Yishmael. She didn't ask his permission."<br /> I remember learning that H-m had to tell Avraham that Sara is right and Yishmoel and Hagar should be sent away. If Sara was able to accomplish this without Avraham's permission/consent, why did H-m have to speak to him about this? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25372 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 02:06:09 +0000 Zalman 25372@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>The Shulchan Aruch, Rambam, etc. (amongst the other varied sources) is halacha lmaaisa. I apologize in advance for your MO sensibilities that are in sync with Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug and Susan B. Anthony, rather than the Chofetz Chaim, the Chazon Ish, and the Steipler Gaon.</p> <p>Its just too bad that you view 3,000 years of glorious Jewish history as <em>"women were totally subservient to men, and NOT treated at equal partners in their marriages."</em> For us Torah-based traditionalist, we will continue living in the ways of our holy zeidas and bubbes, as they have since Matan Sinai. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25347 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 01:20:11 +0000 oomis1105 25347@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>"And btw, Sara, Rivka, Rochel, and Leah Emainu looked towards Avraham, Yitzchok, and Yaakov Avinu for all their guidance.</p> <p>Yeah, I know. Your MO Rabbi never mentioned any of this in his "Shabbat speeches"</p> <p>No they did not, NOT when it counted the most. Sara threw hagar out with Avraham's bechor Yishmael. She didn't ask his permission. Rivka took the brachos meant for Esav out of Yitchak's hands, and made sure Yaakov got them. She didn;'t ask his permission. Rochel took her father's idols, to keep him from doing avoda zara. She didn't ask Yaakov's permission (and ended up dying for that, but then again, it was al kiddush Hashem that she did what she did, and that is why she is the one who is mevaka al baneha and no one else) Leah did not ask her husband's permission to be with him. She gave her son's flowers to Rachel, and then informed her husband that he was going to be with her that night.</p> <p>BTW, you know nothing about me, yet you make what superficially sounds like pejorative comments about my MO sensitivities, and even more, you comment about my Rov, about whom you surely have no basis or right to make what appears to be a negative judgment. I will stack my rov and his shabbos drashas against yours any day. My rov is an extremely learned man a musmach of Torah Vadaas, and your "MO Rabbi" comment was unworthy and abysmally off-base. I understand that your comments all come from choshuvah sources, but are they all halacha l'maiseh, or opinions about women's behavior, from a time when ALL women were totally subservient to men, and NOT treated at equal partners in their marriages? And again, I will reiterate, if what you say is halacha, then there is no excuse for even one kollel wife to be out working instead of running her home. Period. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25327 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 00:54:05 +0000 Zalman 25327@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>oomis, not that I intended to be strident with you, but aside from being incorrect the tone of your comment was acerbic and dismissive. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25226 Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:42:57 +0000 Zalman 25226@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>uhh oomis, sorry for offending your very sensitive modern orthodox feelings. But everything in my preceding comment were <strong>verbatim quotes from the Gemora, Shulchan Aruch, Rambam</strong> and many other meforshim. NONE of it were my own words or chiddushim. So the problem you have you'll have to take up with the Shulchan Aruch, not me.</p> <p>And btw, Sara, Rivka, Rochel, and Leah Emainu looked towards Avraham, Yitzchok, and Yaakov Avinu for all their guidance.</p> <p>Yeah, I know. Your MO Rabbi never mentioned any of this in his "Shabbat speeches". </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25198 Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:11:48 +0000 oomis1105 25198@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>A husband is the final decider</p> <p>Not according to Sara, Rivka, Rochel, and Leah Emainu. Not according to Miriam, Tzipporah, Devorah, Rachav, etc. </p> <p>And Zalman, BOY did you twist this: "The beauty of a woman is to stay inside - "Kol Kevudah..." That does not mean a woman has to stay inside, it means her real beauty is her INNER BEAUTY, that externals are not what are important. That her middos are part of her internal essence, and that is what is her true kovod. As to all the excellent quotes that you posted, many of them are observations of the times. Women do not wear burkas today, and walk with faces veiled, not Jewish women anyway. It is typical for women to leave the home. And you cannot have it both ways. Either it is assur for them to leave the home as you imply, or meritorious that they stay in, as you state, or it is<br /> a good thing, because without women leaving the home and earning the parnassah, all those lovely yeshivah husbands in kollel would be unable to be there all day. So it is ok for women to do something that all the chachomim (according to your own excellently researched post) agree is NOT a good thing or tzniusdig, or b'kovodig, BECAUSE THEIR HUSBANDS WANT THEM TO. Kinderlach, can we say ... never mind, I am refraining from using the expression that this type of thinking calls to mind. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25169 Wed, 07 Jan 2009 22:02:12 +0000 Zalman 25169@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>1) Women should stay inside:</p> <p>(a) Poskim</p> <p>1. Shulchan Aruch (73:1): A man must give his wife clothing like women normally wear outside. A woman should not go outside much. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside - "Kol Kevudah..."</p> <p>i. Gra (4): Hash-m did not create Chavah from Adam's foot, lest she roam too much (Bereishis Rabah 18:2). "Ishtecha k'Gefen Poriyah" is only when she is modest "b'Yarkesei Veisecha" (Medrash Tehilim 128:3).</p> <p>(b) Rishonim</p> <p>1. Rambam (Hilchos Ishus 13:11): A man must give his wife clothing like women normally wear outside in order that she can go to her father or a house of mourning or Simchah. She may go to these places to bestow Chesed to her friends and relatives, in order that they will come to her. She is not a prisoner who may not come and go. However, it is degrading for a woman to always be outside and on the streets. A man should prevent his wife from doing so. She should go outside once or twice a month, according to the need. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside - "Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Penimah".</p> <p>i. Source (Magid Mishneh): Bereishis Rabah (45:5) says that when the Torah discusses the detriment of women, it says that they go out - 'Va'Tetzei Dinah". The Sifri (Tetzei 242 (23)), regarding a Na'arah Me'orasah who was enticed to Zenus, says that a breach (going out in the city) calls to the thief. Bereishis Rabah (8:12) reads "Kivshuha" like 'Kavshah' to teach that a husband should prevent his wife from going out too much.</p> <p>2. Rambam (Nedarim 12:11): If a woman vowed not to give water to her husband's animals, he cannot annul it. A wife need not do this for her husband.</p> <p>i. Kesef Mishneh: A wife must give straw to her husband's animals, but she need not give water. This is because normally one leaves the house to go to the river or spring for this, and "Kol Kevudah..."</p> <p>4. Rosh (Kesuvos 13:17): If a man married a woman from a city of the same quality as his own, even if he married her in his city we force him to live in her city. We learn from "Be'ulas Ba'al"... Another reason is because he can go to visit his friends, but she cannot, due to "Kol Kevudah."</p> <p>5. Rosh (Shevu'os 4:2): The Ri ha'Levi learns from our Gemara that we do not disgrace an honorable woman to go to Beis Din, due to "Kol Kevudah." Rather, we send a Shali'ach of Beis Din to hear her claims. The Aruch and R. Chananel agree. The Ramban and Teshuvos of the Rif and Rav Sadya Gaon do not allow this. The Rif allows only that Beis Din send scribes to record her claim. The same applies to a Chacham for whom it is degrading to argue with Amei ha'Aretz in Beis Din; his honor is greater than a woman's.</p> <p>i. Teshuvos Maimoniyos (Mishpatim 5): The Gemara (Nazir 12a) says that women are Kevu'os due to "Kol Kevudah."</p> <p>(c) Gemara</p> <p>1. (R. Yochanan): Avner told Do'eg 'We learned that an Amoni and a Mo'avi are forbidden, but an Amonis and a Mo'avis are not!'<br /> 2. Question (Do'eg): If so, you should say that a Mitzri is forbidden, not a Mitzris!<br /> 3. Answer (Avner): Mo'avim are forbidden "Because they did not go out to greet you with bread and water." This does not apply to women. It is normal for men to go out to greet, but not for women.<br /> 4. Objection (Do'eg): The men should have gone out to greet the men, and the women to greet the women!<br /> 5. Avner was silent.<br /> 6. Question: How can we answer?<br /> 7. Answer #1 (Chachamim of Bavel): "Kol Kevudah Vas Melech Penimah" (it is dishonorable for women to go outside, even to greet women).<br /> 8. Answer #2 (Chachamim of Eretz Yisrael): We learn this from " ... Where is your wife Sarah?" (It is praiseworthy that she stayed in the tent.)<br /> 9. (Beraisa - R. Yehudah): "Amoni" and "Mo'avi" are forbidden, not Amonis and Mo'avis;<br /> 10. R. Shimon says, "Because they did not go out ..." - it is the way of a man ...<br /> 11. Nazir 12a (R. Yochanan): If Reuven made a Shali'ach to be Mekadesh an unspecified woman and the agent died, Reuven may not marry any woman (Leah), lest the Shali'ach was Mekadesh Leah's relative to Reuven.<br /> 12. Question (Reish Lakish): When a Hekdesh bird flies away, we are not concerned about other birds (lest it is the Hekdesh bird; we follow the majority. The same should apply here (most women are not Leah's relatives)!<br /> 13. Answer (R. Yochanan): Because woman do not roam, the Safek is considered Kavu'a (fixed), so we don't follow the majority.<br /> 15. Gitin 12a (Beraisa): If a wife was exiled to a refuge city, her husband must feed her. He can tell her to feed herself from her earnings only if she earns enough to feed herself.<br /> 16. Question: If she can earn enough, this is obvious!<br /> 17. Answer: One might have thought that due to "Kol Kevudah...", she need not work and he must feed her. The Beraisa teaches that this is not so.<br /> 18. Shevu'os 30a - Question: What is the source that (women are invalid witnesses, so) Shevu'as ha'Edus does not apply to women?<br /> 19. Answer (Beraisa): "V'Omdu Shnei ha'Anashim" refers to the witnesses.<br /> 20. Question: Perhaps it refers to the parties in the case!<br /> 21. Answer #1: The Torah would not say "men", for women also need to come for judgment.<br /> 22. Answer #2: If you prefer, you can learn from "Shnei" (masculine).<br /> 23. Question: What objection might one have to the first answer?<br /> 24. Answer: Normally women do not come to Beis Din for judgment (rather, they send a man to plead their case), due to "Kol Kevudah..." </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25079 Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:38:24 +0000 mdlevine 25079@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>for those of you who drive in Monsey - for those who do not drive in Monsey, use your imagination.</p> <p>I was driving from 59 down 306 towards Maple. The light was changing and I was 2 or 3 car lenghts away from the light going slow because of the weather and road conditions. the car behind me swing into the left turn only lane. sped up and went though the light straight (didn't even turn left). </p> <p>This was not the first time I have seen this on this intersection and NEVER was it a woman driver.</p> <p>where are those red-light cameras when you need one? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25073 Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:14:03 +0000 Phyllis 25073@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Lesschumros, of course women ARE treated with respect. Women are the essence of the home. Women were given their own precious Mitzvos. Women are the backbone of their husbands.<br /> There is no greater respect than that of a women that accepts her role as an Ikeres Habayis with love, dresses modestly despite the outside influences etc.<br /> Yes, Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Pinima, so maybe that restricts her from certain things, but certainly not things that lessen her respect. In fact its the observance of these basic things u mentioned, that make the women respected. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25069 Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:04:32 +0000 intellegent 25069@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>oomis1105,<br /> I guess my answer was not a good one. I was going to point out that I only skimmed the points. I guess I should have read more thoroughly. It does not say anywhere in the torah that women have to walk in a subservient manner behind her husband (at least not that I am aware of and I don't practice this) but I meant to say that yes, there are differences between men and women. A husband is the final decider. But his points are definitely exaggerated. One point that is true ist that as far as far as I know is that generally women have to listen to their husbands. In today's modern world it's hard to believe but that is the way it should be (of course within reason, abuse should never be tolerated.) </p> <p>Women should ideally be treated with a lot of respect, just differently then men. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25043 Wed, 07 Jan 2009 14:33:34 +0000 Josh31 25043@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Bogen,<br /> There are four sections to Shulchan Aruch. Have you studied all 4?<br /> I have not studied all 4 either. There is also the "fifth section of Shulchan Aruch" called "being civilized" or "common sense". And you do not suddenly yank the car keys from your new Kallah (bride)!!!<br /> This is not a strictly "Modern Orthodox" concept. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25020 Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:18:42 +0000 Joseph 25020@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>oomis, We've had mekors from Shlchan Orach, Rambam, etc. on this issue on at least 2 other threads months ago. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-driving/page/4#post-25019 Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:16:02 +0000 KeepinEntertained 25019@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>everyone just do as you like! if your husband allows it than gr8, lucky you, if not, live with it! but if it is something that means so much to a girl (maybe she really wants to drive for chessed) then it should be discussed prob while dating. I personally know i wouldnt like to give up the freedom that comes with being able to drive and wouldnt be very happy if my husband would demand such of me. guess its something to keep in mind with the list of wants/needs in a shidduch but like good looks it shouldnt be top priority! </p>