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YWN Coffee Room » Tag: possible kefira - Recent Posts http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/tags/possible-kefira YWN Coffee Room » Tag: possible kefira - Recent Posts en-US Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:16:13 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/search.php YW Moderator on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12986 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 16:15:59 +0000 YW Moderator 12986@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Enough! Everyone is sick of this thread going in circles. sammygol on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12982 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 16:09:36 +0000 sammygol 12982@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Ignorance is bliss, especially if cloaked in misplaced frumkeit. What would happen to all this supposed Emunah Peshutah if G-d Himself would say - dodo, I have you all the evidence to see My great work, and you managed to constrict it to a box that you yourself know is way to small to contain it. Charles R. Darwin on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12981 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 16:08:09 +0000 Charles R. Darwin 12981@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Joseph: "If there is anyone here who really believes they are a decendant of monkey, please speak up." I do. If you look at Homo sapiens sapiens today, you will see plenty of variety - Caucasians, Africans, Pygmies, Orientals, etc. And we, as a species, are only about 100,000 years old. Do you really think Adam and Eve possessed the chromosomal varieties necessary to bear these multicolored fruit? Obviously not. If so, then in 6 million years Australopithecus afarensis can becom Homo sapiens sapiens. 000646 on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12955 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:52:41 +0000 000646 12955@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Joseph, Again you post a write up that is full of fallacies, there IS a treasure trove of transitional fossils of humans and other species. There had NEVER been any evidence found of humans interacting with even the smallest plant eating dinosaures (and there were plenty of them that would be more harmless then modern farm animals so they would have interacted with them just like they did with evrey other animal that lived around them) and just from these layers (of gnerations of animals living and dying) it is apparent that the world is much much older then 6000 years old, how would it be neccessary to (and were is the proof that hashem did create) the fossils of hundreds of thousands of species that never exsisted just to make the world fully grown? there are many other ways that are used to date things besides carbon dating such as varves, ice layers, stars thousands of light years away (things such as supernovas that we are just able to see today that couldnt be seen 5000 years ago because there light has just reached us from more then 6000 light years away) among many others and common ancestry is proven from way more then just the fossil evidence Joseph on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12952 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:44:05 +0000 Joseph 12952@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ If there is anyone here who really believes they are a decendant of monkey, please speak up. Pashuteh Yid on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12946 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:30:55 +0000 Pashuteh Yid 12946@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Joseph, your argument that the Rambam's advanced knowledge of the lunar interval indicates that the science of chazal was accurate has a big problem. The Rambam himself says that he got his cheshbon from the Greeks (Kiddush Hachodesh. 17,24). Furthermore the Rambam says there that any fact which is proven by science, even by non-Jews, carries as much halachic weight as the divrei neviim. Your argument the the eggs of kinim are not considered alive is also problematic, as what are they, plants? Also the Rambam and nosei keilim in Hilchos Shabbos don't say that they reproduce but just are not halachically alive, rather the term used is einan parin vravin. The same is used regarding a mouse that arises from dirt. (BTW how is that not a problem vis a vis mayseh breishis, if animals can pop out of dirt anytime?) Furthermore, in Pesachim 94b the Jewish sages said, "By day the sun passes beneath the firmament and at night above it." The sages of the nations maintained, "By day beneath the firmament and at night beneath the ground." Rebbe said, "Their opinion seems more correct than ours." (Translation from Rabbi Slifkin's sources page.) Chazal themselves admitted that they were wrong on science and the non-Jewish scientists were right. (Do you believe that the sun goes above the sky at night?) The Rambam says that there are these spheres in which all the heavenly bodies are embedded, and there is no space in between. This simply doesn't fit with what we know today. However, the greatness of the Rambam was that he understood that we continue to grow in science, and accept its proofs from wherever they come. Your citation that Chazal knew the world was round is also not a proof, because Tosfos in Avodah Zara says that the way Chazal knew it was round was that Alexander Mokdon the Greek went very high up above the Earth (I have no clue how) and saw it was a ball (Avodah Zara 41a). Chazal got this from the non-Jews. Now I am not saying evolution is a proven fact, as it makes untestable claims that would require millions of years to verify, the same as I am not convinced of global warming, man-made or otherwise. I say to be open-minded. But one thing I will say is that your claim that all the science of Chazal is true and that one who believes otherwise is going to gehennom is very hard to accept. When did this end? Clearly the Rambam's science was incorrect (check also his calculations of the relative sizes of the earth and moon and sun in Yesodei Hatorah 3,8. Rambam says Earth is 40 times bigger than Moon. We know the Earth's diameter is 8,000 miles, while moon's is 2,000 miles. Doesn't seem to work either in diameter or volume. Sun's diameter is 800,000 miles, while Rambam says sun is 170 times bigger than earth, which also doesn't quite work in diameter, and in volume would be far off. So by the time of the Rambam this was no longer true. Yet if you claim that it is true, and somehow the Rishonim and Acharonim down until today did know everything about science, then this is a verifiable claim. Let us simply give a test to any talmidei chachamim of your choice on known and testable facts in science. We can construct circuits and test on the voltages currents and transfer functions like college and grad students take. We can construct tests in biology on gene cloning and reading of electrophoresis gels and Western blotting, 3-D protein structure, etc. We can test in organic synthesis in chemistry or in quantitative analysis. We can also give the tests in English to Israeli Talmidei Chachamim who should know English since that is also a chochma. (Chazal knew 70 languages.) While you will probably claim this is demeaning, yet we are allowed to test neviiim. It would be a nes goluy, and a tremendous kiddush hashem that nobody in the whole world could possibly deny. It would demonstrate the greatness of those who study Torah. Sadly, while this would be great if achievable, we are all only mortals. Chochma is infinite, but human capacity is not. Even the greatest scientists only know their one small area of expertise, but little of other scientific subjects. Emes and anivus requires that we respect the knowledge of others, and not claim that we miraculously know it all. At any rate, this is easlily testable, as above. Joseph on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12923 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 13:29:43 +0000 Joseph 12923@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Here is another good write-up I found: First, even if semi-humanoid life forms existed, it does not prove in the slightest that they were our ancestors. Perhaps they existed, as ape-like mamals, with more similarity to humans that the apes with which we are familiar. Fine. But what says they are our ancestors? Nothing at all. Second, there is no evidence at all that those fossils are indeed of ape-humans. They dont even have proof that those creatures even existed. Any shred of a fossil that they find that gives them an opportunity to speculate about what kind of creature the fossil came from, they latch on to and built mountains out of molehills, and produce theories about what the creature was. This happens constantly: Zinjanthropus Man, a humanoid race touted as being 600,000 years old based on "fossil evidence", was not even based on one body, or even an entire skull. They found one skull with the lower jaw missing. The skull was not found in one peice - it consisted of 400 fragments, found distributed among tons of debris, and put together at the discretion of the people who stand to gain the most by such a "discovery". The entire episode was totally biased, and they still have zero evidence that this creature was anything but human, with, at most a perhaps slightly deformed skull. And how do they know how old this creature was? Because of the fossils that they found in the same strata with his fossils. ANd how do ythey know how old those animals were? Because of the theory of evolution which says that such animals should be that old. There is no evidence of anythign here - just theory and wishful thinking. Every such "discovery" has had opposing scienists who declare them to be nothing. Java and Peking Man were declared by the prominent evolutionist Weidenrech to be plain humans, nothing more and nothing less. E.E. Stanford, ("Man and the Living World") declared that Nenderthal Man lives with us today. IN "The Fossil Evidence for Human Evolution". W.E. LeGros Clark declares that Neanderthal Man existed at the same time with regular human beings. All these types of ape-humans are nothing but apes or humans that can be seen among us today. At hte London meeitng of the Congress of Zoology it was revealed that the nuseum exhibits of Neanderthal Man walking hunched over like an ape was a regular human who had arthritis. Only 13 samples of Neanderthal Man have ever been found - ever! - every one of them incomplete, yet the evolutionists built on them an entire mythical "race" of ape-men. Procunsul Africanus, touted as the ancestor of "both apes and humans" was declared at that same convention to be nothign but a plain ape. Java Man was represented by a skull cap, a left femur, a small peice of a jaw, and 3 teeth. Nothign more. And they were found not together but about 50 feet apart, over the span of a year, among many many other bones and devris. Based on this "evidence" they created an entire era in history. Laterthey found more skulls, more bones etc. Everythgin was the same as human remains except forthe teeth, and evolutionists claim that those teeth are the teeth of a plain monkey. Peking Man has nothing that cannot be found in normal men. Cro-Magnon Man was, evolutionists admit "fully developed" and intelligent as any man today. He was about 6 feet tall, with a regular forehead, full chin and large brain. he is no more proof of evolution than we are. But do the math: Even according to the most stubborn and irraitonal evolutionists, for every single fossil of normal humans and apes that they find, they should be finding billions upon billions of in-between fossils. The steps between ape and human included tons of in-between creatures, and mutant cxreatures who were not fit for survival. Yet no such fossils have been found. Even the little that they desperately squirm to concoct is pitifully useless compared to what should exist out there. Yet fossils of regular men and apes exist in abundance - in a bundance! - and only once in a blue moon do they even clima to find an in-between fossil. And incidently, the fossils of normal men are found in the same strata as those of the "ancient" and prehistoric men. Go figure. The fossil record is the biggest proof against evolution. Not that proof is needed - the entire idea is a baseless hteory, the only reason they cling to it is because they have nothign better to cling to, if they dont want to admit the obvious - that the world was created by G-d. I would suggest, if you want this information in detail, to read Rabbi Avigdor Miller's SIng You Righteous and Awake My Glory. ***** "But the "age" of fossils is established by carbon-dating which measures the amount of radiation present in the isotope?": Carbon-14 dating rests on two assumptions. (a)that the amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere has always been constant, and (b) its rate of decay has always been constant. Neither of those assumptions has been proven or clsoe to proven. And sicne the world was created in six days, who knows how the cosmic radiation in the atmoshphere was fluctuating then. There is another issue that makes the carbon dating useless. WHen th e world was create, it already had an age. In other words, when Adam for instance was created, he was an adult, even though he was one day old; there were fully grown trees; the sun's light already reached the earth; an entire world existed, full-blown and OLD. How old was the world at the moment it was created? I dont know -- it doesnt say. But we do know that it didnt sdtart fomr scratch. And so lets say someone would chop down a tree 1 week after it was created and find maybe 50 rigns insude - would that prove that the tree wa 50 years old? Nope - it owuld only prove that when it was created it was created as an adult, 50 year old tree. So even if dating would be accurate, it still doesnt prove that the world was not created 6,000 years ago - because when it was created, it already could have been thousands of years old. ***** "But isn't it true that no human fossils have been found at the same level/time period/whatever that dinosaur skeletons were found? and forgive my "jurassic park" imagery, but even if they were extinct AFTER the flood, doesn't it sound highly unlikely that people would be able to peacefully live in settlements before then at the same dinosaurs were roaming around? without being constantly on the run, I mean?": No, it's not true. Actually, there have been human fossils found on the same level as dinosaur fossils, and even deeper; the fossil evidence itself doesn ot support the evolutionary theory in the slightest. On the contrary, Freud predicted that it would, and a century of digging has shattered his hopes. Teh evolutionists have yet to explain why the the fossil evidence does NOT supprot their theory. Dinosours didnt run around attacking people like in the movies. In fact, many of them were vegetarians. ***** If G-d "could have" created the world either way then the dating mechanisms dont prove what they claim to, because they do nto negate the possibility that G-d created an aged world. But never mind that. The entire idea that G-d would have created a "new" world is not reasonable, because surely things like Adam, the animals. the trees, were created ADULTS and full grown, with all the characteristics of people and animals much older than 6 days. Insects that live in decayed dead trees had their homes to live in. The world surely was created more than 6 days old. Adam as an adult by deifnition had the signs of being older than 6 days. The adult animlas too. And trees with fruits on them full grown right at creation. A world swarming with life is a world that is clearly more than a few days old, and the teeming life forms are clearlyshowing siugns of being more than a few seconds old. So clearly the world was much older than its creaion-date. The only quesiton is how old. The "dating" of the scientists is therefore not test of Emunah at all - except a test of Emunah in what the scientists say. Emunah Peshutah for sure. 000646 on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12911 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 12:24:57 +0000 000646 12911@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Tal, Hi how are you, Of course as jews we beleive that hashem is directly in controll of evreything and all processes in nature, when i say complete evolution i just mean that from a scientific point of view all speicies share a common ancestor (wich as you pointed out is satistcally speaking impossable to have spontaneusly generated) i obviosly dont mean unguided by hashem so i dont see why even complete evolution would mean that the torah is false c'v as evolution is just another natural process like the ones that make rainstorms, and the same way knowing how rainstorms form is not a stira to beleiving that hashem makes them so to evolution should not be a stira to believing in hashem making life I think we may be agreeing like you said. Anyway have a great day its nice speaking to you again. tal on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12908 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 11:50:28 +0000 tal 12908@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Your opening statements are all I’ve been trying to say the entire time. Hashem set the law of nature as in rainstorms controlling the world indirectly. He can alter laws and renews creation directly. He is in control period. He was, He is, He will be. There is some level of evolution, I’ve seen it in multiple viruses, just Darwin went way off the deep end. Because, ultimately, Hashem created diversity resulting in evolution and He allows it to continue. Hashem did create a level of evolution. Just not Darwinian. Hashem directly and indirectly controls the morphology of everything. I said in HCV there are minor genotypic shifts. I’ve genotyped things and saw upfront that there are changes. I know they are there, I’m not denying that. I’m denying that total evolution resulted in us. I’m not denying Darwin’s observations rather his conclusions based on his observations. That is a very important distinction. If we are the direct result of evolution rather than a diverse creation, then Torah is false and Israel is not ours. As the saying goes, we can’t have our cake and eat it too. Hashem created two genotypes and now there are billions. Since Hashem displays Himself through nature and did not ‘knead’ another person from earth or form one from a rib again, anyone can fill in the blank. I can’t say anything about the Gemara because I am a girl and don’t learn it. Just talking statistically, spontaneous generation of species and it leading to people is just too far off. People can be identified by genetic fingerprinting because there is a statistical improbability of anyone else in the universe having exactly the same fingerprints. The improbablility of spontaneous generation is even higher, however, most people rely on that theory. There is a big discrepancy. We have to follow probability all the time or never and evolution certainly is not probable. So, the scientific world is clearly contradicting themselves. I didn’t have time to post this before Shabbot. Have a good day. As, I said before, respectfully, I think we are pretty much on the same page and neither of us is expressing ideas too well. We are both saying Hashem created the world and gave them the tools to make slight changes over time. But, He also controls the changes through the environment, killing those He has selected... Hope shabbos went well. Also, Gore is an uneducated fool. He’s never studied in detail anything he’s claimed. All he does is make money off of foolish notions and win nobel prizes. GW Bush is someone who at least has something because he has been kind to the Jews. Don’t mock people we must have hakarat hatov to. He at least beleives in doing the right thing. He may be a little mixed up on what emet is because he does not believe in torah. Pashuteh Yid on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12845 Sat, 22 Nov 2008 23:07:57 +0000 Pashuteh Yid 12845@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ I once heard this from Reb Yerucham Gorelik, ZTL, who was known for his biting sarcasm. On the topic of a monkey being able to throw water on a person's hands and being a valid netilas yadayim, Rav Gorelik said, "Hakof, hagam shehu hayah hasabah shelanu, aval mikol makom, hu lo yachol lhotzee otanu bmitzvot." 000646 on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12732 Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:06:48 +0000 000646 12732@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Will Hill, its really quite simple, i dont beleive that the torah is a science book: We dont know what it meant by a "day" and we dont know what it meant by "dirt" we dont know what it meant when it talks about "water" before the creation, we dont know what it means when it says hashem place a "firminent" on top of the earth among many other things i dont think the account in bereishes is coming to tell us ANYTHING about science other then hashem made it if you want mar hamekomos to hold like this read the books i mention in my earlier posts. Will Hill on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12687 Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:50:00 +0000 Will Hill 12687@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ QUESTION TO 000646 (or anyone else accepting the premise of evolution): Evolution insists man came from monkey. The Torah insists man came from earth. Do you, or do you not, believe man came from monkey? If you do not, how do you cherry pick and choose what provisions of Darwinism you believe and what you do not believe? You maintain NO credibility as such. If you do, you are in the wrong religion. This is antithetical to the Torah. Defend your position, whatever you reply. (Not there is someone or some book that agrees.) shtark bochur on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12647 Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:51:04 +0000 shtark bochur 12647@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ AL GORE CAUSE MORE POLUTION WITH HIS PRIVATE PLAN THAN THE WHOLE STATE OF OREGON 000646 on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12637 Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:01:04 +0000 000646 12637@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Tal, I dont see why the fact that there are laws of nature that seem to cause things that that makes hashem any less directly invovled as i beleive he is the source of evreything and is constantly renewing and keeping those laws the way they are. the sages of the gemara have also stated that bats lay eggs, that a snakes gestation period is seven years and that fleas are spontaneusly generated (the fact that they just didnt consider there eggs to be eggs or that that based on the spiritual definition of nefesh theres isnt a life force like joseph said in an earlier post dosnt change the fact that from a scientific point of view the statement isnt true) about that virus thing, My point was just that any satistical change that happens within a population (wich is what happens by natural selection) no matter how small if it keeps increasing enough millions of times it WILL change the species to another one, picture for arguments sake a flying fish lets say the ones that can jump and glide for longer live and reproduce for longer then evreyone else and the babies of there's that can jump the furthest (even the weaker ones of theres probably can jump longer then the offspring of the ones who cant jump as far just like the parents ) live and reproduce for longer, repeat this process enough millions of times and you will have a creature that flies way more then it swims an can in no way be called a flying fish! Anyway nice speaking to you again Good night! Charles R. Darwin on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12634 Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:37:43 +0000 Charles R. Darwin 12634@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <code></code>Homo sapiens sapiens<code></code> is a very diverse population. Ther are Caucasians, Africans, Orientals, etc. Do you <code></code>really<code></code> think that Adam and Chava had all those variations to their genes? squeak on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12631 Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:23:55 +0000 squeak 12631@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Sorry, but Gore is educated. His is indeed a fool, but he is educated. He belongs to the ranks of other Educated Fools, such as GW Bush, Joe Biden, etc tal on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12624 Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:54:00 +0000 tal 12624@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Complete evolution means that people were not created; rather, they evolved from lower forms of life. Then, automatically, if Hashem did not create people, He is less involved. It’s just a fact by default. If he did not create diversity, then formation is spontaneous and not directed by Him again by default. I do believe rainstorms are a direct and indirect result of His interactions in the world. First, He created nature leading to indirect control. Secondly, He can change nature leading to direct control. He created the world, and, in tefilah, we say He renews creation everyday. Obviously, I believe that in the recent centuries He has allowed us to gain insight into His miraculous world even to the point of influencing it. But, that only enhances His involvement with us. I don’t think Hashem allowed us to see the way genes control phenotypes to discount Torah. He was rather allowing us to appreciate the complex world He has created in an ever more confusing world. He was giving us more of an opportunity to participate with Him in formation and understand what humans have tried to for centuries. Unfortunately and fortunately it worked in both directions as everything does. Until you can tell me what the rabbanim who wrote the gemara intended, I’ll take them at their word. Who am I to say what the tanaim intended when they wrote sifrei hakodesh. Are we that intelligent that we understand their intentions and we can pick and choose which ones we believe? We would not be able to understand the Torah without Rashi telling us how. We cannot just say we understand Gemara until someone equivalent comes along and tells us how. We just don’t have anyone willing to do that. Let me explain the viral replication I was referring to using HCV as an example. It’s one of the fastest replicating viruses. If you would genotype the virus in someone who is on first presentation and then in forty years, you would find the same major sub-type the person was originally diagnosed with. You wouldn’t find any new virus nor a shift in sub-type. Rather, you would find multiple quasispecies of the same sub-type. I was referring to something like that. Evolution was just taken to far which is what I am trying to point out. Don’t you believe that Darwin took this theory just a bit too far? Have a good night. (And Al Gore doesn’t know anything. He is an uneducated fool.) Again, nice to talk to you. I think we are both in agreement that Darwin went a little off the deep end and I'm not expressing it properly! Good night. Charles R. Darwin on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12611 Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:52:28 +0000 Charles R. Darwin 12611@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Joseph: Why is believing that <code>i</code>Australopithecus afarensis<code>/i</code> gave rise to <code>i</code>Homo sapiens sapiens<code>/i</code> antithetical to the Torah? bigmo on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12472 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:56:11 +0000 bigmo 12472@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ To all who say that the gemara has been proven "wrong", i must stand up for kavod haTorah and protest. whether you understand it or not, every word in the Gemara is the absolute truth. And about the topic of global warming in general, i personally don't know enough to form a coherent opinion, but from the little i do know, it is happening, but not on such a large, doomsday scale that Al Gore is preaching. The funny thing is, my Economics teacher claims there is scientific proof that an ICE AGE(!) is approaching. might be, but funny how everyone says global warming and he says punkt farkert. Also, there is a statistic going around that Gore produces, due to flying around the world to preach going green , as much pollution as the whole city of Portland, Oregon!! 000646 on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12454 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:34:16 +0000 000646 12454@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Tal, i dont beleve that complete evolution would mean hashem is less invovled in the world c'v we know exactly how rainstorms form but i still beleive hashem is intimitly involved with them forming, he just gave us the ability to see how he does it! i dont see why evolution should be any diffrent. most of the scientific things disscussed in the gemara is not to be taken litteraly in a scientific sense as to what you were saying about macro as opposed to micro evolution, those small diffrences you saw in the virusus if they kept on happening millions and millions of times with the most changed ones having more "babies" then the other ones who dont have this change it would result in a completly diffrent spiecies then the original : enough micro changes will end up equaling a macro change (imagine those small virusus you saw but magnify the diffrence by 100,000 now times it by 500,000 times keep doing by the time you would reach "even" a few million it would be so radicly diffrent that it would not be able to even be said to resemble the original virus ) Good night! Talk to ya later. 000646 on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12448 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:57:48 +0000 000646 12448@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ I would say stranger things have happend but that would probably be a lie! :-) tal on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12447 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:56:22 +0000 tal 12447@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ 000, If you are an observant Jew, then why are we having this discussion? If you believe in Hashem, you don’t believe in complete speciation. Why am I trying to show you the theory isn’t perfect when you agree with me anyway? Of course you know the Gemara is true. I thought we were having this discussion because you didn’t. Forty life cycles is a short time for a mammal or a human because of their reproductive speeds. But, for bacteria or viruses it’s an eternity. But, that is typically how long it takes for genetic drift in mammals and people. Yet, mammals to people took such a short period while different species of prokaryotes (bacteria and archea) took such a long time. Logically, it should have been the opposite. I wasn’t talking about the apparent lack of fossils. I was talking about the ones they have unearthed that don’t make sense. We spent days and days discounting fossils in some classes because they didn’t support the theory. Obviously there is some level of evolution. But, evolution does not exist to the degree of speciation that the world has fallen for. In a grad course of mine, we subtyped a virus, allowed it to replicate for generations (not that long!), and then genotyped the community. We had tons of quasispecies. Mah rabu maasecha Hashem?!? It was one of the most amazing things I have even seen. Then my professor said it was proof that there was evolution. But, we did not see a new, novel virus just multiple forms of the old. They all essentially had the same functions. They just had a different total genome. Complete speciation is lunacy. But, you apparently agree. This is why I try to differentiate between micro and macroevolution. Microevolution (as in new populations of a species or drift) happens to some degree. Macroevolution (descent with modification) just didn’t result in you or me. I believe that I have a purpose beyond just allowing the human race to continue like serving Hashem. After I die, the non-jews will say that I fulfilled my purpose because I replicated. I will say I have if in din, Hashem tells me I have. I don’t think that humans were an ‘evolutionary screw-up’ as one of my professors says. Then why should I care about anything at that point? Why live? Since you agree with me, there is no point in discussing the falsity of Darwin’s descent with modification. You learn Gemara and the Gemara says Hashem created a diverse world. Nice to have spoken with you again. I know I take a while to respond because I only come on the web once a night to check my school stuff. Also, I never heard of Dawkins before. His experiment was interesting and funny. Thanks for sharing. Have a good night. Thanks for clarifying. I’ll post back later. Joseph on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12443 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:35:47 +0000 Joseph 12443@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ 646, I knew you'd eventually see the light! I always had confidence... :-) anon for this on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12438 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:10:44 +0000 anon for this 12438@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Thanks for the prompt replies. I had not been aware of that book. 000646 on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12437 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:10:20 +0000 000646 12437@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Hey what do you know! :-) Joseph on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12431 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:00:09 +0000 Joseph 12431@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Finally, 646 agrees with me! 000646 on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12429 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:51:19 +0000 000646 12429@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ ANON, I THINK MAKING OF A GADOL (book by RNK) Joseph on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12427 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:44:29 +0000 Joseph 12427@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ anon: The book Making of a Godol. anon for this on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12383 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:28:33 +0000 anon for this 12383@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ jewishfeminist02, What does MOAG stand for? jewishfeminist02 on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12370 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:23:10 +0000 jewishfeminist02 12370@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Joseph, if you want people to read your posts word for word, try shortening them. In response to your main point, please read the paragraph of the article below which begins "Beyond that..." The following is excerpted from an article by Avraham Bronstein. It summarizes a lecture he attended which was given by R' Nathan Kamenetsky shortly after the tsunami hit in '05. You can find the full version here: <a href="http://www.thebronsteins.com/archives/000393.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.thebronsteins.com/archives/000393.html</a> The focal point of the shiur was R. Yaakov Kaminetsky's first visit to Israel (Today, incidentally, was his 19th yahrzeit). It was 1956, R. Yaakov was 65 years old, and had lost his wife two years before that. A little depressed, in love with Israel, he seriously considered making aliyah, retiring, and living out his life as a private citizen. As it happened, an OB/GYN friend of his, a Dr. Dov Shapiro, who was friends with R. Yaakov going back to Slabodka (who had to appeal to the Rugatchover to let his parents let him become a doctor), convinced him that he should continue his career in America. The rest, as they say, is history, but what would have happened if R. Yaakov had not taken his advice and, in fact, made aliyah? R. Nathan suggested that Chareidi society would have been different in that MOAG (which was not even read by those Gedolim that banned it -- they don't read English!!) would never have been banned. R. Yaakov, along with the Lithuanian Gedolim, believed that the truth should never be hidden. Rather than try to portray themselves and their teachers as flawless, they took pride in their humanity. Saying someone is human is not lashon hara, nor is it speaking negatively about that person. In a similar sense, R. Nosson Slifkin's books would not have been banned either. As quoted in MOAG p.680, the Lithuanian Gedolim believed that flawed faith is preferable to hurt people. Beyond that, RNK said his father would have taken issue with the entire idea of denying the validity of modern science when it seems to contradict Torah as interpreted by Chazal. He recalled how R. Yaakov watched Neil Armstrong land on the moon (in the house of a neighbor who owned a TV) and conclude that, clearly, the first few chapters of the mishna torah that discuss the moon being a living spiritual being must have been based on Greek philosphy that had been conclusively disproven. In contrast, an English Jew once tried to convince R. Nathan's son that the moon landing was staged, and his proof was that the flag did not droop. He was unaware that the flag had a wire built into it to make sure that the Stars and Stripes would be visible. That latter attitude is the same one that denies carbon dating, fossils, astrophysics, etc, and it hurts the honor of Torah more than it helps. Clearly, if modern science demonstrates that the world is older than 6,000 years, then the world being literally 6,000 years old can simply not be an Principle of Faith. In short, MOAG enhances our appreciation of the Gedolim by presenting them as real human beings, and Nosson Slifkin demostrates true kavod haTorah by not avoiding and denying reality and the issues it presents. Those that claim the opposite are "kol ha-posel bi-mumo posel". By presenting superhuman, perfect Gedolim and denying the realities of modern science, they are doing more harm than good. As RNK put it, "This is why a man should never consult a gynecologist." ...R. Nathan concluded by pointing out that, since the world was created based on the blueprint of Torah, it would follow that understanding the world can only help us understand Torah just as the pesuqim in Job and Psalms enhanced our comprehension of Genesis. As he asserted in the Q&A section, if science is true, and torah is true, they obviously cannot contradict. We should be happy that modern science has shown us that "yom echad" has meanings beyond a simple 24 hour day. Again, the theme was living in the real world, and not denying reality. The goal, as always, is to use reality in framing a religious worldview. 000646 on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12309 Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:31:33 +0000 000646 12309@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Joseph, i read your post and explained to you why it was full of fallacies: it was known since the times of the yivonim that the earth was round and before that no one had any proofs either way there was never a time when it was considerd scientificly proven that the world was flat rashi in bechoros clearly says that it is talking about a bat (there are no birds that nurse there babys either and the gemara says that the "Atlef" mentioned does this.) the sun cannot be said to be moving around the earth in any physical sense because it (the sun) is what is making the earth orbit as it does (see my post before this were i explain this in more detail) there ARE fish that have scales and not fins. and there are the other examples i gave (there are many other ones that i didnt write also!) of chazal's scientific statements not being true in a physical scientific sense. Joseph on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12275 Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:11:46 +0000 Joseph 12275@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ zevi, I see you too have spewed forth prior to even reading the first post on this page. Aside from that, just about everything you just stated is is fiction. zevi8 on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12271 Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:01:06 +0000 zevi8 12271@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Joseph, Before you go condemning people to gehenim, why dont you do some research. The scientific knowledge of the gemara is on par with the knowledge of the science of that era. The gemara states that the sun revolves around the earth. That has been proven wrong. The gemara states that the gestation period of snakes is 7 years. That has been proven wrong. Many opinions in the gemara found the earth to be flat as well. The gemara should not be relied on for scientific knowledge. That would just be foolish. Science has come a long way and we should always be learning new things. The gemara has also been proven wrong in human as well as animal anatomy. I am not knocking the gemara but it was written over 1000 years ago. Our knowledge of science has increased and we should not keep ourselves stuck on knowledge from that period. Joseph on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12258 Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:17:01 +0000 Joseph 12258@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ 646, It is obvious and clear from what you just wrote, that you haven't even read the post immediately preceding your last which answers some of your queries. What I will add is that anyone who voices doubt as to the complete truthfulness and correctness of the Gemora's SCIENTIFIC statements, has bought themselves a free ticket to gehenim. 000646 on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12245 Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:48:17 +0000 000646 12245@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Joseph, First of all i hate to be the one to break this to you but there ARE fish that have scales and not fins google it. you still have not explained what the chinuch (545) meant when he said that no species of animal ever goes extinct. the gemara in bechoros (7 on the bottom of the amud) states that bats lay eggs. the gemara also says that a snake has a gestation period of 7 years. the gemara in chullin talks about a mouse that is half made out of dirt on the earth going around the sun, it is gravity that makes the earth move it is the sun with its larger gravatational pull that makes the earth move as it does it is therefore from a physical point of view only meaningfull to say that the earth moves around the sun (of course you can say it means that the whole universe "revovles" around torah wich is on earth the same way you would say a self centerd persons life only "revovles" around themselvs but that does not change the fact that in a physical scientific way the earth moves around the sun and not the other way around) also it was already known in the days of the greek empire the yivonim that the earth was round and before that peopole ust didnt know if it was round they didnt have proofs either way Joseph on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/4#post-12223 Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:08:54 +0000 Joseph 12223@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ This is a good write-up I found. Unfortunately I couldn't determine who the author is: Regarding the Refuos in Gemora, the rule is "nishtanu hativim" - refuos change, and in the days of the Gemora they worked. We do not rely on the Refuos in the Gemora today. Scientists are constantly changing their mind about things and one would be hard pressed to use current scientific knowledge as a question on Chazal. (A while ago, they would have said that the Zohar, which states the world is round, is a strange statement, since the scientists know that the world is flat!). On the other hand, there are inexplicable statements in Torah that have proven centuries later to be scientifically correct, such as the statement in Niddah that there are no fish with scales that do not have fins, or the Rambam's incredible calculation of the exact time of the lunar month down to the fraction of a second, which took NASA about 700 more years of technology to figure out the exact same number, to the thousandth of a second, using their technology. --- Some scientific facts were known through rabbinic tradition. The Rashba cites a rabbinic tradition from Sinai that a treifah cannot live more than 12 months. (Rav Yonason Eyebushitz (Kreisi Upleisi 40) writes that such traditions are not to be disregarded even if found to be against “all the laws of heaven and earth”, since they are part of Torah shebal peh.) The most recent example of this is the Chazon Ish ZTL, who lived in our times, and had no secular education at all, yet showed much knowledge of math and astronomy, much of which can be seen in his teshuva on the international dateline. To question a scientific fact that is derived from the Torah is to question the author’s understanding of the Torah, which, in the case of Chazal, cannot be done. The only question is, did Chazal derive all of the scientific facts they used from the Torah, and what do we do when we see a scientific fact in Chazal that contradicts current scientific knowledge? The Rama in Toras HaOlah quotes the Rambam who says that in the days of Neviim and Chazal, the science of astronomy was “incomplete”. The Rama strongly argues, stating clearly that we assume rabbinic science to be infallible, and ancient rabbinic knowledge of astronomy complete. The Maharal (B’er Hagola 6) writes that when the sages mentioned a scientific fact, they derived it from their knowledge of the Torah and Hashem, Who is the Cause of all science. He says that science is inferior to Torah even where it comes to scientific knowledge, because scientists base their opinions on what they see, which is a finite and imperfect method of investigation, as opposed to knowledge of science through Torah, which is the root and cause for all facts in the world. The fact that science in Chazal was gathered from “higher sources” was used by Rav Yehuda Breil ZTL, Rebbi of the author of encyclopedia Pachad Yitzchok, to refute his student’s suggestion that we reconsider Chazal’s leniency of killing lice on Shabbos because lice are spontaneously generated. The Pachad Yitzchok (topic: “zaide”) suggested to his Rebbi that now that science has refuted the possibility of spontaneous generation, we should not be lenient in allowing the killing of lice on Shabbos. But Rav Breil did not accept the suggestion. Stating an idea similar to that of the Maharal, that Chazal’s knowledge is based on the reality, not mere scientific observation, it is certain that the rabbinic science is more accurate than the science of the scientists, and even if currently it appears one way, the rabbinic view will eventually be proven correct. He mentions that in the disagreement between the sages and the scientists regarding whether the sun revolves around the earth or vice versa, the sages conceded to the scientists, but centuries later, it was proven that the Torah sages were right all along (Note: See Shitah Mekubetzes that the sages never conceded that the gentiles were right; they merely “lost the argument”. They knew from tradition that they were right; they just could not defend the correct position). There are others (Rav Dessler, if memory serves) who write that when the sages explain a Halachah based on a scientific fact (such as the heter to kill lice on Shabbos), they do not mean to say that the Halachah depends on this fact. Rather, the Halachah is based on deeper, hidden reasons, and they merely “clothed” their reasoning in the scientific fact. They did not even mean to commit themselves to the truth of that fact per se. So if the fact is proven wrong, the Halachah stays the same. (I am fully aware of the statements in the Sefer Me’or Anayim of Rabbi Azariah min Ha’adumim where he states that secular scientific fact would outweigh the science of Chazal. Please note that the sefer Meor Aynayim is considered highly unreliable (see Sdei Chemed vol. 9 p.179), declared prohibited to read by many Gedolim (and even worthy of being burned); at the very least, not everything he says is considered true or authoritative. It is his statement that the Maharal (quoted above) came to refute.) --- When Chazal discuss life, or what constitutes animal, mineral, or vegetable, they are using the Torah’s definitions, not the scientists’. And the Torah’s definitions of all of the above depend not on physical characteristics but spiritual ones. An inanimate object has a Nefesh Hadomem – the “spirit” (which is a better translation than “soul”) of an inanimate object; plant life has a Nefesh HaTzomeches; animal life, a Nefesh HaBehamis, and a human being, a Neshomah. The definition of life that is used throughout Torah is spiritual, not physical. The Halachic cut-off date for an embryo being considered not yet life regarding certain Halachos is 39 days. On day 40, that changes. Biologically, there is no way to identify the exact date of “life”. This is a spiritual, Neshama-based, assessment, because the definition of life depends on spiritual, Nefesh-based criteria, not scientific ones. If I were to create an android – a robot made out of human tissue – that is “programmed” to have human characteristics – to cry when hurt; to laugh when told a joke; to smile and display all chemical and physical signs of happiness when confronted by a desirable event (i.e., events that are programmed to be “desirable”) to eat and drink and burn the food as fuel; to portray in every scientifically way possible human characteristics – such a Golem, no matter what biological signs or functions it displayed, would not be a human being because it has no Neshamah; it would not even be considered “alive”. Perhaps a clone is in that category, a non-living humanoid constructed through biological matter and those biological factors that enable human functionality, copied from a real human being the way one copies a computer program, but without the spiritual components of a live creature, the Nefesh and Neshama. I don’t know whether, when you clone something, the spiritual components get cloned as well, but if they don’t, then I imagine a human clone would be considered not a human being but rather an organic robot, a humanoid, with no “life” of its own. Even if the scientists cannot tell the difference. Should a human not have a Neshama or a Nefesh, he is not a human, but an organic construct; should someone create an organic machine that mimics plant life in every biological way possible, it may still be considered a Domem, if it lacks the spiritual Nefesh HaTzomeches. So when Chazal say that lice do not reproduce but rather spring from sweat and dirt, they mean that lice do not impart into their eggs the same life-force that animals do, that their eggs have a Nefesh HaDomem, or partially a Nefesh HaDomem, and Halachicly their status is not that of eggs. The fact that scientists will tell you lice eggs are the same, biologically, as any other eggs, means nothing here. They see a Mommy louse, a Tatty louse, and a baby louse, but that’s just the way this construct was programmed to function. Plants also “reproduce” – the pollination process involves moving a seed (the pollen) to another "organ" (the stigma) which causes reproduction - so we have a Daddy plant, a Mommy plant, and a baby plant -- but plants aren’t animals. And plant “eggs” aren’t eggs. And Chazal had a tradition that neither are lice eggs, Halachicly, because the way lice are reproduced -- with a Mommy louse and a Daddy louse -- does not involve the result in the creation of an egg that enables an animal Nefesh the way other eggs do. The Gemora, no matter what explanation you are going to have of it, says that dirt can produce lice. The scientists point out that it is an egg that produces lice. That’s not a big deal, because I am saying that those eggs are halachicly not eggs, but dirt. Because the difference between an “egg” and a biologically identical domem is something only Chazal could know, based on their knowledge of the Nefesh. The Pachad Yistchok proposed to prohibit the killing of lice based on then new scientific knowledge that they are not spontaneously generated. Most achronim disagreed with him, either because (a) when the Gemora makes such statements it does not mean to link the halachah to the scientific fact but rather to "clothe" the halachah in a scientific fact, but the reasoning behind the halachah is based on spiritual reasons rather than science, or (b) the scientists constantly change their mind about things and their current position on anything is no proof that they will not change their mind. But whatever - that’s a discussion in the Achronim. But it says nowhere that Torah she bal peh depends on the scientific statements that chazal based halachos on. As I said, that is a discussion in the achronim. Your question is not directed against torah she bal peh - for nowhere does it contradict you - but rather the interpretations of achronim. If you prefer the Pachad Yitzchok's approach, I would disagree with you and tell you it's not necessary, but it wouldn’t make you any more of an opponent of Torah she bal peh than he was --- and he was one of the great Sefardish sages of recent history. --- Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch says that, even according to the scientists, who say today that the hare only appears to be chewing its cud, and even if it is true, it is not a contradiction to the Torah. The reason they do not chew their cud is because the hares we have today are not the same hares we had in those days (the time of the giving of the Torah). Rabbi Hirsch was not claiming to independently confirm or deny what the scientists said in his days - he never claimed to be a scientist. He is not saying that the hares of 5,000 years ago changed into today's hares. He's saying that the animal identified in the Torah is currently extinct, and what we call a hare is not that animal. This is a rare but altogether acceptable occurrence. It has happened. When the Torah refers to certain animals, it does not give identifying features to classify the animal. We rely on Torah shebal peh to do so, when necessary. Otherwise, translations such as these can become confused. For instance, there is a machlokes as to what a "nesher" is - Tosfos in Chulin 63 a says it is not an eagle. (there are those who say it is a vulture). There is a machlokes between Rashi and Tosfos regarding what "orzo" is -- rice or millet? (The question is, which one do we make a mezonos on?) There is even a Rabbi in Eretz Yisroel - Rabbi Yitzchok Abadi - who holds l'halachah that shiboles sh'ul is not "oats", and that the real "shiboles shul is some kind of grain that we don’t have nowadays. He holds that oats are not mezonos but hadamah; that you cannot fulfill the mitzvah of matzoh with them; that they are not chometz. So if Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch says that an arneves is no longer with us, or that it is not lepus or oryctolagus - hare or rabbit - then fine. Not anything shocking. I would have said that when the Torah talks about chewing cud, it can very possibly include something that appears to be doing so such that you would need scientists to tell you technically it does not. The Torah was given to people, not scientists only, and if Hashem wanted to tell us about a hare, He definitely could describe it that way. It does not say anywhere in Torah shbal peh that the arneves is what we today call a "hare." These things sometimes get confused, as I pointed out above. Today, in Israel, they call a tiger "NOMER" (as in "Tony HANOMER" on the box of Frosted Flakes), but we know that NOMER is a leopard. I would not be surprised if in many years from now, there will be some innocent Talmidei Chachamim that mistakenly confuse nomer for a tiger because of the colloquial usage. In fact, regarding the arneves itself there is clearly an error in "common knowledge". See Professor Yehuda Felix's "Chai v'Tzomeach B'Torah" p. 23, where he insists that the arneves in the Torah - the species that chews its cud - is NOT the domestic house rabbit that people think it is. It is only the wild species. He says this mistake happened because in ancient times they brought to Eretz Yisroel house rabbits from outside the land and grew them IN Eretz Yisroel (you can tell the difference because of their smaller body and legs). He adds that mistakenly people commonly refer to the domestic rabbit as "shafan", but clearly, he says, that is a totally different animal (i.e. the hyrax). Point to a cougar and ask an average person what that is. "Leopard" he will likely say. That’s how these things happen. I don’t know where this idea came from. The subtle insertion of false assumptions into an if-then pattern of logic is a typical tactic of the "misinformation professionals" who try to "prove" falsehood. They arrange their falsehoods in such a way as to sound as if some transitive formula is being stated when in reality it’s just a bunch of hogwash. The listener gets so caught up in the "if A then B so if B then C" pattern that they are distracted from the falsehood of the entire sequence. --- The earth revolving around the sun is only relative. Nobody has proven nor even claims that it is absolute. In other words, if the Earth is the center of the universe, and the entire universe revolves around the earth, it will appear from the vantage point of anyone located within the universe that the sun is revolving around the earth, when in reality it is the opposite. In other words, if you throw a ball in the direction of north at 60 MPH, you are stationary but the ball is moving. However, if at the time you threw the ball you were on a bus traveling south at a speed of 60 MPH, you were actually moving, but the ball was stationary. It wouldn’t seem that way to you, though, because you’re on the bus throwing the ball. But someone outside the bus would see the ball stay in the same place, and you move. However, if that outside observer were standing on earth, which was (for the sake of the argument) rotating North at 60 MPH, then even though to him it would seem like the ball was stationary and you were moving, the truth would be that the ball is moving, you are stationary, and he is moving. Movement relative to another object depends on your perspective. And in order to know, ultimately, whether the earth revolves around the sun, because the earth is moving, or the sun revolves around the earth because the universe is moving and earth is stationary, you would have to measure form a vantage point outside of the universe, and nobody has been able to do that yet. At least not scientists. So the idea that the earth revolves around the sun is like saying that the ball is moving inside the bus. Maybe. Or maybe everything is moving in your immediate area except the ball. You'd have to be outside the bus to know that. Same thing here. To know whether it is the earth or the sun that is moving, you would have to take into consideration the entire universe's movement, which no scientists has been able to do. The scientists themselves do not claim to be able to determine what goes around what, except from the vantage point of being inside the universe. The Torah is talking absolute. So the scientists, and everyone else in this universe, are "on the bus". From their vantage point, it does indeed seem like the earth moves and the sun is stationary. But they are not, nor do they claim to be, able to determine whether the entire universe is moving around the earth. People merely tend to assume that is not so, because of all the quadrillions of planets and stars in the universe, why would everything be revolving around this particular planet earth? Except for the fact that Chazal tell us that the entire world was created for the sake of Klall Yisroel and the Torah, and that the sun in fact revolves around the earth, as does the entire universe, of which the earth is the exact center. And no scientist in the world is going to tell you that he can disprove that. From our perspective, we who are "on the bus", it looks like the "ball is moving". But from the ultimate perspective, the complete perspective, stepping so far back that the entire universe is in view, the earth is smack in the center. The idea that stopping the sun is not literal will not help, because the Gemora says explicitly that the sun travels around the earth. The scientists today do not even claim to know that the earth revolves around the sun except in a relative way as I mentioned before. The Torah is speaking in absolute terms. --- The "four corners of the earth" is not taken by anyone literally nor was it ever. It was, and still is, an expression. Kind of like when the Torah says Hashem took us out of Egypt "with an outstretched arm." Jews always knew the world was round even when the scientists said it was flat. The Zohar speaks about "kadur haatrez" - the ball of the earth. Of course, if "secularists" were there, they would have said the Torah doesn’t mean "globe of the earth" literally, or something messed up like that. 000646 on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/3#post-12215 Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:02:35 +0000 000646 12215@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Tal, let me start off saying i am a frum jew who beleives in hashem and davens 3 time a day. i am not talking about the forming of the first life form either, i am talking about common ancestry and the evolution of exsisting life it is worth noting if the mutation is one that benifits the organisim it will genarly build up at surprising rates in the population if there is somthing forcing it to be rapid namely natural selection (the animals that dont have this trait either end up being dead earlier or reproducing less). there is a famous experiment were Richard Dawkins made a computer shoot out random letters and programed it to save evrey letter that brought the jumble closer to the sentence "methinks it is like a weasel" it took a mere 40 "generations" to get there. a lack of fossils in NO WAY disproves the theory for besides the fact that fossilisation could be a very rare event as there are plenty of proofs to it without the fossil evidence the only way the fossil record could be a problem to evolution would be if somthing was found that CONTRADICTDED it. i will now repeat the point i made earlier, being that evolution is proven from many independent sources it just dosnt make sense that evreything just coincedently looks like evolution happend even though it didnt I say all this with the utmost respect as you are entitled to your opinion as much as i am to mine. it is nice talking to you to good night tal on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/3#post-12175 Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:58:03 +0000 tal 12175@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ You are right, I read over your post. I read it wrong initially. I think you said mammals in the dinosaur period, they haven’t found. But, there is inappropriate dating. The evidence I know of: They found more ‘complex’ organisms when only ‘simple’ should have evolved at that point. Pardon the words ‘complex and simple.’ My guess is you are more like my professors in the usage of those terms. Just spend some time on it. All the perfect mutations of antennas to legs were all there just waiting to be expressed. Then, a HOX gene mutation develops and a perfectly formed useful appendage appears. That is just too convenient. (Obviously, that is completely oversimplified. But, that’s the point.) There have been fossils dated to the wrong periods. Spend some time looking up some of the examples. I. It’s the fault of the sediment. II. The environment in that period. III. Improper fossilization… They come up with multiple reasons to discount the fossil that doesn’t support the theory. I do grant you that sometimes they refigure the periods. When the likelihood of some parts of the theory forming the foundation continuously decreases because of mounting evidence, then, I can’t believe it. In science, as time passes, certainty should increase. It only makes sense to say something unusual happens a few times. At some point, it gets old. When they test a medication, there can be only very few outliers to introduce the medication to the public. There is more certainty, effort, reproducibilty, and time in the introduction of a medication than in a theory that the ‘entire’ natural science world believes. Maybe medicine deals with less uncertainty. (I completely separate the two.) I can’t make you see how the theory is disproved. You need to disprove something to yourself. People cannot be made to have a view. They develop one themselves. Again, have a good day. I know I don’t word things too well. I’ve learnt that from my students. I hope this time I was a bit more clear. The thing is, to keep probability of a mutation in the species, there would have to a similar mutant to mate with usually. Too many differences results in inviability. So, you need a general population of drift and that typically takes place over generations. Unless there is something forcing it, it is gradual. So, when you find a fossil in the wrong period and not all the gradual ancestors, then something is wrong. It could not spontaneously appear. It’s not a perfect theory. Also, finding one fossil from a population and not multiple also prevents the theory. (I understand that there are ways that fact could support evolution. Let me explain why it doesn’t.) How was it reproduced to that point? Who were its parents? It would have to have been really close to this new form. Also, things spontaneously appeared millions of years ago but not anymore. What happened? Chemical composition has been pretty steady. The same elements that existed then exist now. Why did this random event of life only happen once. This is one of my main frictions with the entire idea. If it could have happened once, it become more probable. But, it didn't. Only one thing became alive and that evolved. There is too much beauty and complexity in it. It's just too simple. Do you at least recognize that evolution is not certain and that it doesn’t solve all the origins of the species? You also never answered me when I asked you if you believed you are responsible to a higher being beyond yourself? I think that it would speak worlds. Respectfully, I think you've been avoiding answering it. Too long as is. Have a good night. Nice to talk to you. I hope your day went alright. Thank you for understanding that I disagree and I'm not criticizing. 000646 on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/3#post-12003 Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:54:52 +0000 000646 12003@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ tal, with all do respect i think you misunderstood my post, the things that i mentioned would that would contradict the theory (the mamaml skeletons being found were they shouldnt be ect.) NEVER have happend or been found. what i was saying was that if somthing has many proofs to it from many independent sources (as evolution does) some parts of it being unlikeley to happen in no way disproves the proofs that you still have: when somthing has alot of proofs to it it makes more sense to say that the unusual thing happend, and not that all the proofs you had from other places just coincedently made it look like evolution happend even though it didnt. I am sorry if any of my posts are coming across harsh and \ or argumentitive i am enjoying this disscusion with you very much and in no way mean to be dissrepectfull. tal on "The Hoax known as man-made "Global Warming"" http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-hoax-known-as-man-made-global-warming/page/3#post-11983 Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:39:16 +0000 tal 11983@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ Firstly, You just pointed out contradictions to the theory. 1. Dating of skulls to the wrong evolutionary periods. How does that follow the theory? 2. Dating of mammal skeletons to the wrong periods. That doesn’t follow the theory either. You said yourself it was ‘unlikely.’ So, it is improbable. In science, that means there is a contradiction. Secondly, I’m not looking to win a nobel prize for anything. I don’t want to spend my life fighting to disprove this to this world. I hate fighting. Let them realize their mistakes on their own. I don’t want to preach Torah. That’s not what a Jew does. It ultimately comes down to this: do you believe you control things or that you are responsible to a higher being and your life does matter that it’s precious to Him because He lovingly formed you? You believe the former. I believe the latter. As you can see, most people here believe it too. I’m not looking to preach to you. Just to show you that there is contradictory evidence and there are many instances that the theory is improbable. Obviously you are somewhat educated on the subject. In that you think you understand enough to believe it are argue your point. I feel I beleive enough to say its not true. But, you also need to understand the theory isn’t concrete. It isn’t 100% supported 100% of the time. You told me that in a different post. At that point, you need to begin, as the saying goes, take everything with a grain of salt. I wanted to end with this: I’m not trying to argue with you. It sounds as though you think I am from the tone of your last post. I’m trying to respectfully disagree with you. As I said, I’m a young adult. You are an adult. I respect you because you are closer to my ancestors than I, in my opinion. I don’t think your one step closer to an ‘ape-like’ hominid population. Have a good night.