http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ en Thu, 23 May 2013 07:23:47 +0000 http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/3#post-56753 Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:04:12 +0000 oomis 56753@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I'm coming into this discussion rather late, but I believe that the main reason for cutting down on the cola (and other sodas), is that a) they are empty calories and b) the enormous amount of sugar in even a single can may have an adverse effeect on the students, especially if they are drinking soda after soda. The caffeine may also be a factor. It is better for the kids to be drinking juice, milk and just plain water. Cola has a dehydrating effect, as the caffeine acts as a diuretic. I happen to love soda (only drink diet, though), but even I have cut down considerably to only drinking an occasional soda on Shabbos, or at a simcha.</p> <p>As to the rules and regs in Yeshivahs, well, it IS true that if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. You don't like this Yeshivah's rules, send your kids elsewhere. But what if there IS no "elsewhere" readily and easily available to a parent?<br /> What if they have sent their kids to that Yeshivah for years, and suddenly the Yeshivah changes many of the rules that were never in effect before? I experienced that to a very mild degree when my daughter's yeshivah suddenly decided they wanted to institute a "uniforms" policy. After having bought clothing for the school year, I had to now suddenly spend way more money buying the uniform. I had no choice but to do so. There was no other school to which I would be able to send my daughters, for various reasons, both hashkafically and in terms of the friends they would have in their school versus another. Sometimes, you have to bite the bullet in order to benefit in other ways. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/3#post-56658 Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:16:22 +0000 Ashrecha Yisroel 56658@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>My rebbi told me over shabbos that R' Chaim Ozer, when he was a child, rode a goat into cheder. He was wild as a child. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/3#post-53307 Thu, 05 Mar 2009 13:47:29 +0000 smartcookie 53307@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Oh, I wish. Whats wrong with kids having gym class, baking/cooking(yes even boys!), swimming, or even an interesting current event workshop once a week - IN THEIR OWN YESHIVA BUILDING. Oh- lets keep on dreaming but it would be great! </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/3#post-53264 Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:02:47 +0000 squeak 53264@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I can't verify that story, so I will refrain from comment, but I think the story with the Netziv is even more powerful. His parents gave up and decided to apprentice him to a shoemaker (because he had no hatzlacha in learning). The young boy heard this and became so distressed at the thought that he was motivated to apply himself and became the Gaon we are familiar with.</p> <p>When he told this story, he would then add that had he not overheard his parents' conversation, after 120 years he would have arrived before the Judge, Who would have asked him why he did not write the sefer Ha'amek Davar. The simple shoemaker would have been shocked, but completely unable to defend himself. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/3#post-53160 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 22:28:00 +0000 Ashrecha Yisroel 53160@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Back on what was being said earlier about playing as a kid:</p> <p>Today, someone told me that R' Chaim Kanievsky said about himself that he didn't learn well until the age of 17 and that if it weren't for his connection (Steipler/Chazon Ish), he would have been thrown out of yeshiva as a child.</p> <p>Please verify this story if possible. But even if it goes unverified, the point is still there. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/3#post-53148 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 21:52:45 +0000 SJSinNYC 53148@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I don't agree that its superfluous indulgence for me right now - without coke, I cannot get through a day of pregnancy! But yes, normally its a terrible thing that should be avoided 99% of the time. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/3#post-53116 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 21:06:02 +0000 kiruvwife 53116@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>sjs-I agree. Drinking soda, I believe as was discussed on another thread a very long time ago, was categorized as superfluous gashmius/ indulgence. That aside, we need very much to teach our children about health/nutrition...it is so neglected, and it can be taught in the context of a mitzva to satisfy those that need justification. I would also add to the list managing money. I don't think having a certain level of bitachon should be a one way ticket to irresponsibility-in the money or health realm. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/3#post-52739 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 12:56:27 +0000 SJSinNYC 52739@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>kiruvwife, I'm impressed. We really should have health/nutrition classes in yeshivas. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/3#post-52725 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 12:26:29 +0000 kiruvwife 52725@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>sjs-yes that's what a friend of mine told me in a few of the east coast schools. I believe that was the main purpose although I'm sure there were other reasons. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/3#post-52722 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 12:12:32 +0000 yossiea 52722@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Joseph, not everyone lives in NYC. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/3#post-52713 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 10:50:50 +0000 SJSinNYC 52713@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Kiruvwife, why are they getting rid of it? To help with health and childhood obesity? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/3#post-52587 Tue, 03 Mar 2009 20:53:47 +0000 kiruvwife 52587@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Interesting point-many of the yeshivos and bais yaakovs are getting rid of soda machines and no longer allowing soda at siyumim etc. So, coca-cola classic will become a thing of the past when it comes to finding it in our children's schools.... </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/3#post-51973 Mon, 02 Mar 2009 20:35:50 +0000 Joseph 51973@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Coke's hechsher, unless they changed it, is etched on top of the cans and printed on the label of the bottles. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-51465 Mon, 02 Mar 2009 13:20:00 +0000 tzippi 51465@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I didn't know Coke had the hechsher printed on the label. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-51397 Mon, 02 Mar 2009 10:51:38 +0000 squeak 51397@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I agree, moish. If you add the OU then it would be on topic. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-51236 Mon, 02 Mar 2009 01:02:13 +0000 anonymisss 51236@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>moish, cool pix! I like!</p> <p><em>~a~</em> </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-51232 Mon, 02 Mar 2009 00:53:29 +0000 asdfghjkl 51232@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>moish: ha awesome can of coke!!! thanx i enjoyed it, nice &#38; refreshing!!!! </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-51184 Sun, 01 Mar 2009 20:19:40 +0000 an open book 51184@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>nah. i think the title's more like the "(and moish)" one. its a dual topic </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-51181 Sun, 01 Mar 2009 20:12:09 +0000 moish01 51181@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>i should look for an israeli can of coke? don't think that's got much to do with yiddishkeit.</p> <p>HOWEVER: it's got an o-u so that's pretty jewish, aint it?? there's nothing more jewish than food (with a hechsher, of course ;)) </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-51170 Sun, 01 Mar 2009 19:46:18 +0000 squeak 51170@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>The drawing was off topic. That was just a can of Coke. It has nothing to do with Yiddishkeit - not even Hebrew lettering. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-51143 Sun, 01 Mar 2009 18:56:19 +0000 moish01 51143@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>hey what's the shevach for anyway? <em>not</em> doing the <em>wrong</em> thing?? that's pretty stupid. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-51142 Sun, 01 Mar 2009 18:53:28 +0000 YW Moderator-39 51142@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Moish, what do they say? Miktzas shvacho b'fanav? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-51138 Sun, 01 Mar 2009 18:47:24 +0000 moish01 51138@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>you mean Brian D. Quick's kavod?</p> <p>stop, joseph it's assur to be malbim pnei chaveiro berabim. (unless i'm not a chaveir? that's kind of you.) </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-51136 Sun, 01 Mar 2009 18:34:03 +0000 Joseph 51136@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Colonel Moish is a tzaddik gamur. Never takes credit from others. Always worried about yenem's kovod. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-51130 Sun, 01 Mar 2009 18:13:23 +0000 an open book 51130@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>:) </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-51126 Sun, 01 Mar 2009 18:09:29 +0000 moish01 51126@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>yeah i was gonna cut it out but i figured it would probably be gnevas daas </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-51121 Sun, 01 Mar 2009 17:57:01 +0000 an open book 51121@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>whoa thats cool but its a good thing u left the signature there or i would be scared!!!!! who has that kind of patience?! </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-51104 Sun, 01 Mar 2009 16:59:45 +0000 moish01 51104@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <pre><code>. .....uuuxuouuuuuuuuuu..... ..xnHHMM$5$$$$$$$$$R$$$$$$$$$$$$NWbeou.. .::!!H!MMMMM5$888888888M8888888BB$$$$$$$$$$$$Neu. .&lt;!!!!!!!!H@M**#&quot;##T?????!!!???TTTTT###*R$$$$$$$$$$Nu :!!!!!!!!!!!!!)xxuoiX!~~&#39;&#39;&#39;&#39;&#39;)???!!!!!!!!?TT#*$$$$$$$$k dX!!!!!!!!)&gt;!:H#&quot;???&quot;!..::::!!:!!!&lt;~!!::()!!!!!!?T*$$$$R ?$U!!!!!&lt;!XWiix:xxxxxXX(..&lt;???X()Xud%:::/&#39;!!:::)!!!?T*#) :8$NiX!!!!!!&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;?##!**@@****##&quot;&quot;&gt;!!!~---!!!!!&lt;!!XxH6 9$$$$$RHnx:::~~&lt;&lt;:&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;:&lt;~~~~~~&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;:&lt;:~&lt;&lt;(:xHX88$$k :$$$$$$$NN@WQSXXx+&lt;x&lt;::.L::..:::::.....:&lt;x+:nHS88NN$$$$$$$ t$$$$$$$$$$$$NNNWWUQXQXXS?!??!????XXXUUWWWWWNN$$$$$$$$$$$$L $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$NNN8NNNNNN$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$&gt; $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$R$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$k $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$7$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$&#38;T$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$XR$$$$$$$$R$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$?QR&#38; $$$$$$$R ?T*$$$$Z.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$B?$$M ?$$$$$$$ T#$$U.R$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.?$R $$$$$$R 9NWX ?$% #$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$W.TR RZ#$$$B ?R$$WX R$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$N.?%X9$N.#$$X TRB$$WX XXW$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$RX ?#$$$W.#$NX ?TMR$W?#$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$# ?HX ?T*$$U?#$NU ? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$R X$WX ?T*NW.R$NWUX X$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$R X$$$$NU ?T% R$$$$WXM$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$X X$$$$$$$WUX &quot;T*R$$N T$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$X X$$$$$$$$$$$WUXX 9$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$&#38;X8$$$$$$$$$$$R*#RH UxX XU$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$B?#*$$$$$$$$$R XWiU ?#$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$RX WWQ R$$$$$B ?*$MXWWUT*$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$X W#$$WU R$$$$X ?X$$$$NX#$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$&#38; RW $$$N #$$$$WX ?T*$$R ?$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$X R$6 R$$ R$$$$RtX 9$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$WX #$NW $$$R#T?R*NUUXXXU$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$NX ?$$$$$$$R tNNWbU2TR$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$W ?*$$$$$B ?*$B$$$WX#$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$NX ?#$$$$UX ??T$$$$W?$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$U ?#R$$$UX ?R$$$H?$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$WX ?#*$$NWWUB$$R 9$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$R$NU ?T#**R$*T? 9$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ?T$NUX X$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$U $$$NWUX U@$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$RNW$$$$$$$NWWWWWWN$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ?TR$$$T*$$$$$$$$$$R$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$&quot; ?#$$W2#$$$$$$$Rt$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ NNUX &quot;T*H?#$$$$R $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$X.#$NWX ? 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Quick</code></pre> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-50207 Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:30:50 +0000 yossiea 50207@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Well that is one reason why I think in a Utopian world we would have school districts with school boards and the schools would be run like a government entity. It'll never happen, so if you do want a more open and flexible school you would have to R"L move out of the tri-state area. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-50205 Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:28:17 +0000 kiruvwife 50205@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Well, I'm not exactly sure how it works in Lakewood and other places, but I assume the school is "owned" by those who make the school policies. Just like a store can mandate "no shirt, no shoes, no service" a school has the right to make it's rules. If you don't like their rules, then don't go there. Just like the school says, this is a school just for girls, then no one can make a fuss about the fact that they won't accept their boy into the bais yaakov. They're not telling you that you don't have a choice whether or not you want a tv in your home. But they surely have the right to say if you want to be in this school these are the conditions. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-50165 Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:20:08 +0000 Feif Un 50165@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>kiruvwife: Why can you mandate such things? Is it their right to or not? If you're arguing that because of their circumstances they can mandate such things, maybe it's time to re-think the power we give the schools. You yourself said schools don't have the right. Why should we allow them to forcibly take the right? I understand that you might not want your child associating with children who watch TV. Well, if a child is encouraging other kids to watch TV, you'd have a case. First, see what happens. I grew up with a TV in my parents' house, and I barely discussed it with anyone growing up. I never influenced someone else to watch TV. So why wouldn't I be allowed in a Lakewood school nowadays? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-50128 Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:07:55 +0000 kiruvwife 50128@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Feif Un--the east coast booming cities are in a position to make such mandates for their school to have such standards. The way it seems to me is, if parents wish to send their children to such a school, then they have to follow those standards. It doesn't mean that the schools have now removed all options for parents to use their sechel and imagination to see to it that their children will use their scarce spare time wisely. And if a parent wants that TV/internet in their home, then they will have to either choose a different school, or rethink what takes precedence.</p> <p>As far as being loaded with homework, that is the schools achrayus together with the parents to have good open communication to see how it is affecting their students/children. This partnership is crucial and a well balanced approach is a necessity in building well balanced children. Ultimately though, it is the parents who must do the parenting, and do the best they can despite the flaws of the school. We as parents of the future of klal yisroel owe it to ourselves and our children to have confidence in our parenting abilities and to instill in them a Torahdik approach to these challenges in life. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-50124 Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:58:05 +0000 onlyemes 50124@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Kudos to Rabbi Haber for telling it like it is.<br /> Unfortunately, the system is far from ready for his proposals.<br /> I remember when Rav Shteinman Shlita came out with his reluctant support for the Nachal Chareidi. He was immediately, and I emphasize, immediately, ripped to shreds in the chareidi press and in numerous vicious pashkvilim which made him appear like an archetypal hater of Torah. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-50119 Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:29:20 +0000 Feif Un 50119@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>kiruvwife: I agree. The problem is that the schools took it out of the parents hands. Schools now mandate what you can or can't have in the home. If you have internet access in Lakewood, your kids can't go to their schools. A TV? Forget about it (please don't argue the point about the TV, my point is that the schools are taking these decisions away from the parents). When kids get home, they don't have any free time. They get home late, and are loaded with homework. Kids don't have time to play anymore. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-50118 Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:26:32 +0000 Jothar 50118@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Here is a quote from an upcoming Horizons article:<br /> Horizons: I just recently came across another warning against the dangers of the internet to the spiritual wellbeing of our children. Maybe we can begin our discussion by asking how much is the internet to blame for “kids at risk”? Or is that merely scapegoating?</p> <p>Rabbi Haber: The internet has proven to be capable of a great amount of damage to Jews of all ages. However, it is important to remember that the internet is a reality. There will come a time in the not-so-distant future when it will be impossible to pay a bill, bank, make a phone call or even turn on a light in your house without using the Internet. Instead of forbidding the Internet and non-kosher cell phones, it would seem to be more prudent to teach students how to interact with the Internet responsibly. If we were to forbid everything that we can use the wrong way we must include cars, mp3 players, and for that matter—women! We have to be very careful with internet technology—but forbidding it is not the answer in the long term.</p> <p>When a teenager leaves us for a more exciting lifestyle, we have to ask ourselves why they are not finding that excitement in our homes and communities. In his remarkable sefer, Tzav V’Ziruz, the Piacezner Rebbe teaches an important lesson in education: Nature abhors a vacuum. The sustenance of the neshama is regesh (emotion). The neshama wants to be filled with a regesh of kedushah. If it doesn’t find kedusha, it will search for any form of regesh, even violent or disgusting regesh. We have to fill our children’s neshamos with healthy Torah regesh. Then the urge to look elsewhere will disappear.</p> <p>So it’s we, the parents and teachers, who are responsible for “kids at risk”?</p> <p>Rabbi Haber: I don’t think the issue is “kids at risk.” That expression is used because it makes us feel good. It implies that it’s the kids’ fault, that something is wrong with them. The underlying assumption is that the system is okay, just something went wrong with this or that kid who “fell through the cracks.” Really, the opposite is true. They are being pushed through, not cracks, but gaping ditches and huge holes. We have to decide if we’re willing to lose them.</p> <p>You make it sound as if we were making a conscious decision of some kind to send them away…</p> <p>Rabbi Haber: That’s right. They are lost by design. Our educational system is elitist. It caters to the brightest students. Most teachers do not pay much attention to the average and below-average students. Those who do not excel academically are offered no option. Everything is stigmatized. To tell a kid to get vocational training is tantamount to calling him mentally retarded. Or in Israel to serve in the army, is like telling him he’s a failure. The kids understand this and feel rejected. They say to themselves, “I don’t see myself in this system, so I’ll find my own way.” They find their way on the streetcorners of Har Nof and Ben Yehuda.</p> <p>How did this elitism come about?</p> <p>Rabbi Haber: There was a decision made after the Holocaust that Yiddishkeit in the U.S. and Israel has to be rebuilt. And that meant producing gedolim, the next Rabbi Akiva Eiger, the next Brisker Rav. And I’ve heard it said that it was understood, perhaps even stated at the time, that since not everybody is going to be a gadol b’Torah, “we are going to have to lose a few.”</p> <p>What took place over the next forty years was the rise of an elitist system. When I was growing up and went to school, the teachers would speak to the average student, trying to involve and reach everyone in the class. But in an educational system geared to the elite, the teacher cares primarily about the geniuses, certainly not the slower students.</p> <p>In this system, there are certain known yeshivos at the top, and everybody wants to get into them. From the earliest years, parents and their kids are aspiring and planning to achieve acceptance in those elite schools. The teachers and principals are also caught up in it.</p> <p>Nor is the issue only one of getting into yeshivos. Even for those in the ‘right” yeshivos, they must have highly trained and capable eyes to learn about each individual talmid and advance him according to his unique potential. The yeshivos all advertise that they cater to the individual. But do they?</p> <p>What reaction do you get when you say things like this?</p> <p>Rabbi Haber: They admit it’s so, but they say, “What can I do? If I lower my admissions standards, then the parents won’t send their kids to my school. And if I don’t get the best students, I’ll lose my standing with the yeshiva ketanos.” The yeshiva ketanos are in the same bind, having to provide the top students for the yeshivah gedolos, who will accept nothing less. Certain yeshiva high schools offer virtually automatic entry into the elite yeshivos.</p> <p>And naturally parents are ambitious for their kids and want the best for them.</p> <p>Rabbi Haber: It’s an issue of shidduchim too.</p> <p>An elite shidduch for an elite school graduate.</p> <p>Rabbi Haber: No, it’s getting into the top yeshiva in order to get the best shidduch. And, of course, that translates into financial support for the future rosh yeshiva who will continue learning in kollel. There’s a joke going around that they want to lift the ban of Rabbeinu Gershom against having more than one wife, because the financial situation being what it is, you need two fathers-in-law to provide support…</p> <p>I want to emphasize that nothing I am saying here should be taken as a criticism of Gedolei Yisrael. I have the greatest respect for them, have never I made a serious move in my life without consulting gedolim. And they understand that we have to address the needs of all the children. For example, HaRav Aharon Leib Steinman shlit”a endorsed the establishment of Nachal Charedi (a special Israeli army unit for the Torah-observant, which affords boys who do not see their future in Torah learning to discharge their military obligations in a suitable environment prior to entering the work force—Y.R.) Rav Shach zatza”l advocated a quota to ensure the acceptance of Sephardi boys in the Lithuanian yeshivos. They fully realize that Jewish education does not exist for any one group.</p> <p>Throughout history, Gedolei HaDor that were faced with unusual challenges used Hora’as Sha’ah (emergency measures) to save the day. Often a Horaas Shaa requires a sacrifice of the individual for the Tzibur, but they did what they had to do. From Hillel to the Rambam to pre-war Europe, “work” was never considered a dirty word and was always the option for the majority of frum Jews. The question for today’s Gedolei HaDor is, “Given today’s realities, is it time to go back to tradition, or should this be a permanent change in the culture of Judaism?”</p> <p>Here’s a stupid question: Why not assemble all the educators whose fault it isn’t, and have them decide all at once together a broader admissions policy so that nobody loses standing relative to anyone else in the competition for the top students?</p> <p>Rabbi Haber: Well, there’s a problem with achdus.</p> <p>Oh.</p> <p>Rabbi Haber: You know, not everybody can be the tzadik of the generation. Rabbi Dr. Avraham Twersky tells of a discussion he once had during a visit with the Steipler Gaon, whom people often consulted for medical advice. Since he had heard that Rabbi Twersky was a psychiatrist, he inquired about medications for mental illnesses.</p> <p>“Is anything available that can cure someone from delusions?” asked the Steipler. Dr. Twersky replied that there wasn’t much in the way of medicine for delusional thinking.</p> <p>“But what if someone has the delusion that he is the greatest tzaddik in the generation?” the Gaon asked.</p> <p>“No medication can cure that,” Dr. Twersky laughed.</p> <p>The Gaon shook his head sadly. “Too bad,” he said. “That malady is so widespread.”</p> <p>Sounds like the system is designed to spread the malady.</p> <p>Rabbi Haber: You know, I would say that it’s not “kids at risk, it’s “Klal Yisroel at risk.” I have worked with hundreds of so-called “kids at risk.” Most of the time these young people are the cream of the crop. Adel, sweet, caring individuals. The kind that, if you say “Well, I have to be going into the city now,” they’ll immediately offer to give you a ride. And it’s often because they are not aggressive or bullying by nature that they are swayed by bad influences, make bad decisions. But they are good kids.</p> <p>You have to ask yourself : What would happen if they would not fall through the cracks? They have tremendous potential and a role to fill in the Jewish people. There are so many different mandates: tefilah, chesed, writers, administration, etcetera. In an elitist system, these are all b’dieved. But is that really the emes? No one should be an extra. Everyone should feel needed and important—because they are. This is how Yaakov Avinu spoke and blessed all of his children before he left this world: “Each man according to his blessing did he bless them.”</p> <p>So, if we allow them to fall through the gaps, Klal Yisrael loses. So it’s not just a matter of saving this kid or that kid; but of saving Klal Yisrael. As I said, we have to decide if we can afford to lose them.</p> <p>Do you have a solution?</p> <p>Rabbi Haber: Well, the beginning of a solution starts in our description of the problem; we have to change the terminology. Calling them “kids at risk” only exacerbates the problem because it makes it sound like they have an illness. Somebody actually suggested that if one in ten children fall into this category, it could be that they are the same one in ten who suffer from learning disabilities.</p> <p>We need to create options, without a stigma, to encourage respect for ba’alei batim, for people who work and are not roshei yeshivos. And if there’s someone who can start a school which is not elitist, that would, of course, help.</p> <p>Thank you, Rabbi Haber.</p> <p>Rabbi Haber: Thank you. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-50105 Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:14 +0000 kiruvwife 50105@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>At the beginning of this thread there were opinions regarding school, it's obligations to molding our children and the role of family.</p> <p>An odom godol said that the home is the ikur place of chinuch, the school is the supplement. </p> <p>I think parents need to have more self confidence in their abilities to be the ones to be truly mechanech their children and not be so incredibly reliant on the school to do the educating and parenting. The schools and yeshivos have their place, but ultimately it is the parents who must take resposibility to how they are mechanech their children.</p> <p>That means parents have an achrayus to how they guide their children in their spare time-boys and girls. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-50098 Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:17:58 +0000 SJSinNYC 50098@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Ames, if you think Kollel people don't look down on those that work, why would Striving (the nice young woman who is looking for a shidduch) say "It's a frustrating thing that if you tell a shadchan that you want a boy who's working part time, they'll think you're not serious about torah... "? </p> <p>Right now, schools are preaching to their students that being in Kollel (or being a Kollel wife) is the ideal way and anything less is only done if you cannot do that. I think you are kidding yourself if you think Kollel society doesnt look down on workers (please note: I am not talking about individuals. I know plenty of individuals in Kollel who do not look down on others. I am talking about the general view).</p> <p>As for the philosophy of taking services: it happens to be something I am against. Services are supposed to be there if you NEED them, not to put yourself in a situation to need them. I really wish the government would change the provisions, but until then, I am still allowed to be upset with how my money is being spent. And I really wish that people taking services would understand them for what they are - CHARITY from the American people. Getting services is not really a "right" but charity provided by others. </p> <p>As for the economy - my statement about Hashem handing out money was sort of directed to the story about the Valley of Gold coins. I 100% agree that Hashem controls all money (and everything else). </p> <p>And most kollel men I know, generally wake up later than working men who learn/daven before work. </p> <p>Let me explain my philosophy in a different manner, that maybe is easier to understand.</p> <p>Your husband is working and you have a few kids. You pay all your bills. Your first kid goes to Yeshiva and you pay full tuition. By the time the second kid gets there, you cannot afford to pay full tuition. So, do you apply for a scholarship or do you go get a job? You prefer to be a stay at home mother, but is that fair to the rest of the community that shoulders the added burden? No - you should be responsible and go get a job (assuming of course that you make enough money to cover the cost of daycare and such). Or, you get a scholarship. Now you find you have $500 to "spare" - do you give it to the school to cover costs, or do you buy new clothes for Shabbos? I would give it to the school because I don't believe in being an unecessary burden on anyone. Are there times that scholarships are necessary? Absolutely, and there is no shame in taking one. But you really should be doing everything in your power to not need one. </p> <p><em>They don't look down on the Zevuluns of the world. The TRUE Zevuluns they look up to! They look down on those failures who spend there waken hours in pursuit of the all-mighty dollar. The ones for whom a car is not a means of transport, but rather a status symbol.</em></p> <p>If thats true, does it matter if they are driving a 78 dodge? They shouldnt care. And, one outfit for shabbos should be enough. One pair of shoes should be enough. Most women I know in Kollel have more than that - are they pursuing too much gashmius? </p> <p>Jaymatt, I know quite a few rich families. Most of them are not striving for gashmius - they have it, and use it, but don't worry about the status. They might buy a nicer car because it has better pickup and a smoother ride, but the ones I know don't buy status cars just for status (I mean, how many Porsches do you see, even amongst the rich)?</p> <p>Do you count supporting your kids as part of the zevulun relationship? Because I do know plenty of parents that support their kids in the way they raised them (if they can). </p> <p>OK, this is getting really long...yasher koach if you made it to here :-) </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-50094 Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:52:42 +0000 gavra_at_work 50094@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I don't understand. Why does Kollel mean not paying full tuition?</p> <p>According to economic theory, the ones who need the product the most will pay the most for it (Demand curve). As such, since the kollel families are the ones who are least likely to send their children to public school, the yeshivas should charge them more and they will have to pay it, as opposed to the non-kollel families who have another choice (public school, breakaways (since they have capital to start up a new school) or homeschooling (as one parent may not work, or it may not be worthwhile due to tuition payments)?</p> <p>Just a pet peeve of mine, even though it will never happen. </p> <p>side point: we have no idea whos learing is more chashuv in the eyes of Hashem, and it would be terrible to tell anyone that they can't sit and learn if they want to do so. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-50080 Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:20:33 +0000 JayMatt19 50080@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>&gt;&gt;JayMatt, How can there possibly be a real relationship like Yissachar/Zevulun, when the group preaching for Yissachar looks down upon the Zevuluns of the world?&lt;&lt;</p> <p>They don't look down on the Zevuluns of the world. The TRUE Zevuluns they look up to! They look down on those failures who spend there waken hours in pursuit of the all-mighty dollar. The ones for whom a car is not a means of transport, but rather a status symbol. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-49903 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:21:22 +0000 Jothar 49903@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>In reference to the original topic of this thread, here's another interesting tidbit from the mishpacha article on Reb Chaim Shmuelevitz (search mishpacha.com for "Shmuelevitz"). I am appreciative that Mishpacha's articles are OCR-searchable, allowing me to cut and paste from the PDF's. Quote:</p> <p>It is almost inconceivable how this<br /> giant, a man who lived in a rarified, sublime<br /> world, who scaled the loftiest heights, was<br /> so aware of the realities of this world, was<br /> able to address the uglier side of the human<br /> heart in such a normal way.<br /> He once remarked to a talmid that he<br /> thought the practice of certain Yerushalmi<br /> families to have their children don<br /> shtreimlach at the age of eight or nine was<br /> dangerous. “If they have shtreimlach at<br /> eight, then they will never grow up.’<br /> Children needed to be children and<br /> then, only then, could they be adults.</p> <p>On pages 42-43 of "In Their shadow", Rav Shlomo Lorincz is describing how the Chazon Ish gave a sizable donation to trade schools set up to teach a parnassah to those who couldn't learn full-time. When Rav Shlomo Lorincz expressed his surprise at this, being as the Chazon Ish was the one who pushed for full-time yeshivos in Bnei Brak where none existed before, he said, "We must show concern for those who need a vocational school, in order that such students remain within our framework and do not become dropouts from our ranks, chas veshalom". This is why he was a gadol. While he very much believed in the supremacy of Torah, he fully understood that there are those who aren't suited, and they should not be pushed away from the ranks of klal yisroel. Contrast that to today, in which many yeshivas get more and more elite, and the dropout problem gets bigger and bigger. Halevai that Gedolim could run our yeshivas, eliminate the protektzia, and treat our children the way they were meant to be treated. </p> <p>I spent a few years learning in kollel before leaving and joining the workforce. It is mentioned by many gedolim that someone who works all day and learns at night is a much bigger masmid than someone who learns all day but doesn't learn a minute more than he has to, or hangs out in the yeshiva (or YW)coffee room. I have personally found that my learning, while much lower in quantity, is a much higher quality since I have to struggle for every minute of it. </p> <p> I am happy that my tax money is going to kollel families instead of to welfare queens or Wall street bonus millionaires. If the government is giving away money, why shouldn't people take advantage? All of the rich people have advisors telling them how to maximize their college scholarships and minimize their taxes. The big banks gladly take the government money and use it for bonuses and junkets. I'd rather my kollel friends get my money than my Wall street friends. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-49880 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:35:14 +0000 SJSinNYC 49880@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>JayMatt, I work in NYC but live in NJ. Regardless, my point stands. </p> <p>Ames, yes thats beautiful in theory. But when groups of people who LOOK DOWN ON MEN WITH JOBS, then they shouldnt ask for any money from those with jobs. THAT INCLUDES TAKING OUR TAX MONEY. True, Hashem can hand everyone lots of money. But thats not the way Hashem generally runs the world. </p> <p>Also, just because someone doesnt sit all day and learn, does not mean they arent Bnei Torah. My husband gets up earlier than every kollel man I know (as does my bro-in-law and most of the other men Iknow). Its much harder to wake up at 5 am to daven/learn, then go for a long day of work and learn some more...All men are obligated to learn! </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-49838 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:46:55 +0000 JayMatt19 49838@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I'm confused. You are in NYC and you complain that your tax dollars go to support torah in NJ.</p> <p>Thanks Joseph, chizuk is always helpful </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-49810 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:21:49 +0000 Joseph 49810@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Yasher Koach JayMatt for standing up for the Kavod of the <strong>Torah Hakedosha.</strong> </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-49795 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:47:20 +0000 SJSinNYC 49795@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>JayMatt, I understand that not everyone is a Zevulun. But understand that the society that preaches to sit and learn, looks down on people who go to work. You cannot be a zevulun if you don't have money to give someone. Unfortunately, in this world, we need money for food, shelter, clothing etc. </p> <p>In old times, support mainly meant food. So someone could plant an extra acre for another family to feed and help them build a house. Nowadays, its food, shelter (which requires monthly payments as opposed to just helping build someone a shelter), medical insurance, yeshiva tuition...it takes a lot more than it used to. So you DO need a skewed number. </p> <p>Not everyone needs support. But most do - most women (especially if they dont go to college) don't earn enough to support a family.</p> <p>If you doubt this, find out how many people in Lakewood are on WIC, food stamps, government health insurance, HUD...what is that if not support? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-49771 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:49:34 +0000 anonymisss 49771@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>not surprised, moish, just appreciative of it as opposed to some others here....</p> <p><em>~a~</em> </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-49770 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:49:31 +0000 JayMatt19 49770@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>&gt;&gt;Also, the numbers balance doesnt work out. When its a small percentage of people learning full time, communities can band together and make sure those learning have a good lifestyle. But when the ratio is skewed, how can the community afford it?&lt;&lt;</p> <p>The numbers aren't skewed, we are. Yissachar/Zevulum was 50-50. It isn't 1000 people giving change to support 1 person. It is skewed because we have convinced ourselves that luxuries are really necessities. </p> <p>By the way, please show me where one can only learn if someone supports them. If you are claiming that people learning have a sense of entitlement towards other people's money, or that they don't truly have bitachon in Hashem, then that is a completely different conversation than the one we are having (and one where our views could very well be identical). </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-49763 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:35:23 +0000 JayMatt19 49763@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>To SJSinNYC. The definition of a Zevulun isn't he who isn't a Yissachar. Both recognize the need for torah. One learns it, and the other works for it. A Jew doesn't invest in this world, they invest in the next world. If you want to work and live a luxurious lifestyle, fine, just don't use Zevulun's name as your heter for doing so.</p> <p>Shemos Raba (52:3) states the following story: Once a student of R' Shimon bar Yochai's left Eretz Yisroel and returned with great wealth. The other students were jealous and wanted to leave Eretz Yisroel to get their riches. R' Shimon took them to a valley near Meron, davened, and announced: "Valley, valley, fill up with gold coins!" The valley soon filled up with gold coins. R' Shimon turned to his students and said, "If you are seeking gold, here it is! Take for yourselves! But be aware that whoever takes now is taking from his share in the world to come" </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-49738 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:17:54 +0000 SJSinNYC 49738@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>JayMatt, How can there possibly be a real relationship like Yissachar/Zevulun, when the group preaching for Yissachar looks down upon the Zevuluns of the world? Why would I ever give my money to someone who thinks my lifestyle is a way to live only if you cant get someone to support you?</p> <p>Also, the numbers balance doesnt work out. When its a small percentage of people learning full time, communities can band together and make sure those learning have a good lifestyle. But when the ratio is skewed, how can the community afford it?</p> <p>Please show me where in the Torah it is my obligation to support those learning Torah full time to my detriment... </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-49732 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:11:12 +0000 moish01 49732@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>try not to sound so surprised, anonymisss. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coca-cola-classic-and-yiddishkeit/page/2#post-49728 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:09:22 +0000 Jothar 49728@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Let those who want to learn go ahead and do so. But it has come to the point where someone who isn't cut out for learning his whole life is viewed as a second-class citizen. No wonder so many kids feel like failures. As for the dismal math of everyone learning, the Torah is omeid al haneis, meaning yeshivos should never do well bederech hateva. If we turn today's kids into successes instead of failures, we might find ourselves with less dropouts and less kids turned off to Yiddishkeit. That was the point of the article. In Lita, many balabatim were big lamdanim. Not everyone is on the level of Rabbi Shimon Bar yochai of "Toraso umnaso". It's time we realize that when the gemara says Rabbi Yishmael's way of talmud torah im derech eretz worked out better, the gemara knew better than us. </p>