http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius YWN Coffee Room » Topic: How to increase Tzinius en-US Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:31:19 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/search.php http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/5#post-3475 Tue, 19 Aug 2008 01:09:07 +0000 Joseph 3475@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>The Big One, strike roughly. After rereading your masterpiece, I must confess I could not have put it more aptly myself. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/5#post-3472 Tue, 19 Aug 2008 00:51:00 +0000 saythatagain 3472@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>The Big One,<br /> I respectfully disagree with most of what you wrote. Tznius is something we need to work on and Joseph's attempt to increase it is wonderful. </p> <p>Maybe Joseph can continue to maintain his shefos and desire to bring more tznius in teh world and that even with all the great intentions one can still be nechshal and we can have compassion on those who don't always pass the nisyon. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/5#post-3466 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 22:18:45 +0000 Joseph 3466@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>The big one, Thank you. If I had thought it worthwhile wasting my breath further on these attackers (as you so aptly dubbed them), I would have roughly made the same points as you said so well. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/5#post-3465 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 22:02:34 +0000 dontjustfollow 3465@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Just for the record:</p> <p>I completely agree that it would be a good topic to EFFECTIVELY discuss - how to increase tznius awareness. </p> <p>I completely disagree that "laypeople" (of the male gender) should be bringing up "specific" tnius issues relating to women in a public forum. My gut reaction to that was - that in of itself is UNtznius! I could understand a comment here or there - but obsessing about it...?? </p> <p>AND then presenting an attitude/comments showing a complete lack of "understanding" of the proper way to deal with the Tznius issue, and a contradiction of "really wanting" to influence Jewish women to higher/better levels of tznius... it reeks of pompousness, as if that person has "arrived" on THAT issue (relating to men). </p> <p>So bring on the discussion of "Tznius Awareness", heaven knows we need to improve in so many areas including this one. </p> <p>So again, the topic is a good one, males should definitely be careful of that slippery slope of borderline-tznius interactions with the oopposite gender - online, or off. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/5#post-3450 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 18:19:48 +0000 The Big One 3450@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>This is the most absurd point I've read in a long-time, but let me try spelling it in simple language to you since you seem to fail to get a grasp of plain black and white English, and the other posters have given up trying to follow your circular arguments and explain it. First of all the very same cadre of posters who suddenly are ostensibly giving tochacha in an area that no wrong was done, are the very same who displayed opposition to the stringencies of tznius in the first place. In the face of being unable to answer the points, point-by-point, they've stooped to manufacturing a fault where none exists. I just read through the entire thread contextually. Think BIG asked for roundabout age and marital status because it makes a difference in perspective regarding the issue of discussion. And the compliment clearly was contextually made for understanding the halachos clearly. Do you really expect anyone to actually believe that these very folks are opposed to mentioning age/status (or making a compliment) between genders for halachic reasons!? Especially where that information is useful for the topic? This is the prototypical chosid shoiteh situation. It is hardly hypocritical to mention these points while in full adherence to every tznius stringency in the book. I am willing to say dollars-for-donuts that the attackers are the very same folks that will have far less vanilla inter-gender conversations. The only reason they even bring up these points, is because they have no valid arguments regarding this topic. And they know that very good and well (as much as they will now deny it).</p> <p>The first attacker made the most absurd statement. He criticizes any man who dares discuss tznius! Why? Because he claims it is untznius for a man to discuss tznius! This is patently absurd on its face. The next one says that its not everyones danger that some women are dressing untzniusly. That is equally absurd. Then someone criticizes anyone who dares broach any issues he deems "controversial." He defines this as tznius, raising children, and a whole litany of other issues he deems controversial and therefore not allowed for discussion. According to him you must accept the most watered-down standards the biggest liberal comes up with, and "aloha" accept it.</p> <p>You call that tochacha? I call that a joke. Perpetrated by a cadre of folks being unable to elevate themselves to proper adherence, so instead they try to bring down anyone else whose standards they feel threatened by (without the other person even imposing anything on them!) It is no wonder people don't bother responding to these kind of circular arguments (that will now undoubtedly be repeated in response to this comment, using slightly new words), as they are repeatedly made instead of addressing the issue at hand. And the thing about this, it is so obvious and self-explanatory, that the only reason these folks keep making these same false points, is to try to put those who do support upholding the proper tznius laws on the defensive and to keep repeating themselves. And that is why they are ignored. The points were made. If you care about the Torah you will follow it. If you don't care about the Torah you will find 100 different excuses why the mussar was wrong, the person who gave it was wrong, and whatever other drivel you can conjure up. And for the rest of us it is unbeneficial to exert additional effort in convincing, where clearly they don't want to be convinced of the truth, or anything for that matter. And that is why you can have the final word, and convince yourself in your mind that you are right. Nothing will ever change your perception of what you think is reality.</p> <p>And one final point. I see a few attackers call those who support fully upholding the tznius laws as "very frum, "frummer", etc. It is very telling that these "very frum" posters never called themselves any frummer than anyone else. It is the attackers who identified them as being frummer. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/5#post-3277 Fri, 15 Aug 2008 08:55:38 +0000 Bogen 3277@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>what is wrong is when bnei torah turn a blind eye towards the prevalence of pritzus amongst our people. this problem is epidemic. and someone must stand up and yell "enough!" it is every mans call of duty to bring this pritzus to an end. you are very wrong. when some of our sisters are sinning like this, and causing our brothers to sin with their sinning, we MUST become obsessed in our continuous and unending struggle to eradicate this plague. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/5#post-3248 Thu, 14 Aug 2008 20:40:08 +0000 ujm 3248@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Fighting pritzus is where there is a problem? No one can fight it since someone calls it untzniusdik?? Fighting pritzus is a mitzvah for every man AND woman. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/5#post-3217 Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:18:13 +0000 Think BIG 3217@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Joseph: This will be my last post, bringing our conversation to an end. Let me just say that you have convinced me that the issue of women's tznius is a deep concern of yours, as it should be every Jew's. </p> <p>I can hear that people like you may feel helpless in this regard, especially since many other men are not taking care of their own bnei bayis, and all men (and all women as well) are the unwitting victims. I continue to maintain that the "fight" must be fought with wisdom and gentle words, with an eye towards effectiveness, and not through insensitivity and the like.</p> <p>I remember reading a letter to the editor in a women's magazine (Binah) last year. (I don't remember evreything exactly, but this is the gist of it.) It was written by a yungerman from Lakewood, I think. He began the letter, "Dear bnos chashuvos,holy daughters and woman of our community..." or something thereof, displaying tremendous respect and admiration to those he was adressing. He started off by expressing his appreciation for all women stand for etc., He then went on to recount a personal story where he went to the store and a woman reached to get something and inadvertantly exposed what should have been covered..." To make a long story short, his letter was so sincere, so heartfelt and most importantly, so bachovadik...He begged and pleaded with the women to realize what they were doing, how they were inadvertantly but surely causing men to be nichashal, against their will...etc. He ended with brochos to them, and again pleading for them to take it to heart.</p> <p>Personally, I thought the writer was overdoing it. Why was it so necessary to take such pains to write like that, just tell it like it is! But I can tell you, Joseph, that the response to that letter were overwhelming. Women wrote that they had never realized what they were doing and how they resolved to be more careful in the future...That is the approach that works (imho!) and perhaps it is something like that that you and others like you can do.</p> <p>Once again, it was a pleasure. Keep up your conviction and integrity in this confusing world we share. And may we all be zoche to restore hashem's shechina in our midst.</p> <p>To all of you out there, its been nice meeting you and sharing ideas. Hatzacha to all, and my opologese if I have offended anyone. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/5#post-3174 Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:27:24 +0000 kutzibundi 3174@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Joseph, you are to be commended for your determination. You're quite young but it's interesting that the women and wives of many orthodox pre and post holocaust families did not adopt the tznius standards of today's orthodoxy. This would even include the daughters and wives in chassidic families; of prominent rabbis; and even Rosh Yeshiva. Many if not most mothers of post war baby boomers did not cover their hair until their children started to marry in the early 1960's and it just progressed from there. Someone once asked one well-known Rosh Yeshiva why his wife didn't cover her hair. His response was something like: "So, do you want me to divorce her?"<br /> Keep up the good fight. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/5#post-3173 Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:20:12 +0000 gavra_at_work 3173@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>From what I hear, there is a serious problem of Tznius in lakewood due to the influx of non-lakewood type people who were/are (or their husbands) learning there. (The person who I spoke to compared the pizza places in lakewood to those hangout pizza parlors of the Five Towns) Perhaps it is time to start a new "branch/move" for the serious learners further out of town where ther is already a frum community but close to NYC (Allentown comes to mind as a possibility, maybe Scranton is a bit too far) where the cost of living will be much cheaper, and many of the issues with living in the "in" location will go away? If a large group moves at once, we may be able to re-create the community of 30-40 years ago where everyone wanted to follow the rules.</p> <p>Just a thought. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/5#post-3153 Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:00:39 +0000 Joseph 3153@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>P.S. At the end of the day, there is nothing signifigant that, in my evaluation, we disagree with IN PRACTICE on this matter. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/5#post-3151 Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:43:31 +0000 Joseph 3151@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Because, as you said, this is a major problem today and it is an issue someone must take a stand. Especially considering how resistant some segments of society are to this. I am bothered to the core with the pritzus displayed by "frum" yidden in the public streets. Rabbonim are, like you mentioned, these days are taking a greater stand against this machla. But considering the great extent of the problem, everyone must stand up to this crime.</p> <p>It is an extreme test to every man when confronted with this type of brazen pritzus in the street. I'll tell you a little secret. Due to my personality I've never given mussar to a woman (outside immediate family) regarding her personal tznius. But someone has to. Even if her husband is oblivious or worse to it. Who will? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-3141 Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:37:16 +0000 Think BIG 3141@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>joseph:</p> <p>Before i sign off for the night (and this is my last night here), perhaps you can satisfy my curiosity. It is interesting to me how cut and dry you are in regards to many issues, especially the tznius/tochacha issue. Though we agreed on many other topics, on this one we were a bit at loggerheads despite the fact that we are both professing to talk in the name of tznius.</p> <p>Do you mind telling me why this issue is such a burning one for you (or so it seems) ? (For me it is obvious, as I work with these issues on a daily basis as part of my job...) </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2877 Mon, 11 Aug 2008 20:21:14 +0000 Think BIG 2877@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>JOSEPH: oK, if you say i should be grateful that i haven't been exposed, I am, but I'm even more grateful that my husband and i made the decision not to have a computer, as besides for all else, it is very addictive. it is fascinating to me that with a few clicks one can be connected to people all over the world.</p> <p>So, what else can I say? I live "out of town", I am married to a choshuv yungerman with several little childern, b"h. I teach part time and spend the rest of my time doing what everybody else does, I guess. That's all I'm willing to say for now on this public forum...hope that satisfies your curiosity!</p> <p>Tzippi: believe it or not, I cannot even type! I am of the "two-finger" typers...(though I did learn in school, I never had practice!) </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2831 Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:45:46 +0000 tzippi 2831@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Women may be more erudite, etc. It's also possible that we were taught to type so type faster and better (not that we don't make the occasional typos, etc.). </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2819 Mon, 11 Aug 2008 07:02:06 +0000 Joseph 2819@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Think BIG, You ought to be thankful that you haven't been exposed to other forums. This is relatively benign, an uncommon characteristic compared to the shtus out there (including the purportedly "Jewish" ones.)</p> <p>Believe it or not, I too come from a typical background. And I too have always had a quest for knowledge. I would venture to say that most of my (certainly secular) knowledge, including advanced language, I've acquired on my own i.e. via reading. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2798 Mon, 11 Aug 2008 01:09:44 +0000 Think BIG 2798@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Thank you Joseph. What can I say? i am flattered, though I would not say that my positions are "absolutely correct." Much of what I write is my own personal perspective/opinion. But thanks just the same. </p> <p>You say such commodities are rare...I am not familiar being that this is the first "forum such as this" that I have ever participated, but I did find that there are several intelligent posters on this site, that gave me much food for thought. </p> <p>Yes, I went through the "typical Bais Yaakov system", more or less. However, the home I was raised in is quite different (in subtle ways--nothing overt) than the one I have now in terms of emphasis and hashkafas hachaim. So, in a sense, I was exposed to different ways of thinking. Additionally, I have always had a thirst to read and understand others points of views.</p> <p>You speak about English language skills. I have observed that you write in a manner not typical of a yeshiva graduate, in both vocabulary and scope. Can you tell us a bit about yourself? (age, occupation, background etc.) </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2753 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 15:59:23 +0000 Joseph 2753@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I too am from the NY Metro area. I take it you went thru the "typical" (litvish) Bais Yaakov system. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2749 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 15:28:29 +0000 Joseph 2749@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Curiousity, I suppose. I've found your posts very intelligent, erudite, and of greatest importance absolutely correct. I appreciate your expressing yourself as thus. Such commodities are indeed rare, especially in forums such as this. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2731 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 13:51:00 +0000 Think BIG 2731@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I am originally from the greater new york area, though I don't live there anymore. May i ask why it interests you? Where are you from.<br /> (Actually, i've read that in the area of language, woman are stronger than men in the general population, not just in the Jewish one. Men are stronger in math and the sciences) </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2723 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:37:28 +0000 just me 2723@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I do understand the tzniyus crisis in Lakewood. Lakewood is no longer just a yeshiva town. The cheaper property rates have brought in many other poeple who are not "Lakewood types". These people and their not-yeshivish way of dressing is a crisis to the more yeshivish in the community.<br /> On the other hand, some people take things to the extreme. My mother's friend went to Lakewood to go to her grandson's bris. She is a woman in her 60s who dressing atractivly, but not "in your face". Her sheitel is dark and just brushes her shoulders. One guest, a young woman, at the bris came over, gave mazal tov and then said that as a bubby, it would be more tzniyusdic and proper for her to wear a shorter shaitel. I guess manners arenot tought together with halacha.<br /> Also, you might be interested to know that many people have different feelings about what is tzniyus. My daughter went to sem in Gateshead. The girls all went to that video about tzniyus where many rebatzins from around the world spoke. The next day, one of my daughter's teachers had a few words about it. This rabbi is a world renown person. I wouldn't mention his name here. He said that it was an important presentaton but IT WAS A SHAME IT WAS SPOILED by the American women who spoke. He felt their shaitels werent tzniyusdic enough.<br /> Tzniyus seems to be relative to where you are. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2722 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:37:12 +0000 Joseph 2722@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Think BIG, Thanks for that correction. What rough geographic area are you from?<br /> (Interestingly, I find that Jewish women tend to have better English language skills than their compatriot men.) </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2713 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 11:10:54 +0000 Think BIG 2713@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Joseph, my background is nothing exceptional.<br /> One thing I will tell you is that I am a "she", not a "he", as you seemed to assume from another post. I thought it was obvious, but apparently not. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2701 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 10:15:21 +0000 Joseph 2701@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Think BIG, I'd love to know a bit of your background (nothing necessarily identifying)! </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2671 Thu, 07 Aug 2008 23:19:59 +0000 Think BIG 2671@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Joseph:</p> <p>I was thinking, the best (truest) way to "know" a person is to know his mind. And i've certainly given everyone here a piece of my mind!</p> <p>What else would you like to know? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2668 Thu, 07 Aug 2008 23:08:23 +0000 lgbg 2668@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>think big</p> <p>your very welcome! as long as i can bring laughter to the world im glad:)</p> <p>and regarding you and lakewood i was actually being sarcastic. what i mean is everyone thinks lakewood is one type. dont ask me what that type is but thats what out of towners think.im just saying that all you out of towners shouldn't think lakewood is like one, becuse b"h lakewood has grown and there are various types here and yes the tniyus levels are diiferent to. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2662 Thu, 07 Aug 2008 22:29:42 +0000 sinaisent 2662@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>best way to increase tznius is to home school our daughters and dress them in Burkas when they MUST go out. Girls and ultimately Noshim, including married Noshim must be taught they are intrinsically evil and their bodies are objects of shame. Once this message gets accross all women will indeed be too ashamed to allow any part of their bodies to be exposed and they will avoid any public appearances.</p> <p>But this will raise a hugh problem -- how will families get their groceries and their meals cooked and laundry washed. The answer is obvious "separate hours" women will only be allowed out at night and men during the day </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2627 Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:20:15 +0000 Think BIG 2627@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>lgbg: How can you "see" i don't live in Lakewood? In your earlier post you said it sounds like i'm really knowledgable about the girls in lakewood. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2624 Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:17:52 +0000 Think BIG 2624@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>lgbg: NO NO NO! I'm not a psochologist! But that sure made me laugh out loud, so thank you! </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2587 Thu, 07 Aug 2008 15:35:57 +0000 Native Israeli 2587@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>This site is definitely addictive. But if u think into it, its great for those ppl that fell into this addiction---better this site than any of the other that can treifen our souls----better then chatting w/ who knows who and who knows where...</p> <p>this site is discussing issues in our community that we can all learn about talk about, nothing wrong about in my opinion..i only see good in it</p> <p>its a healthy outlet </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2578 Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:53:56 +0000 lgbg 2578@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>think big</p> <p>no you did not hit a raw nerve. </p> <p>and i can see you dont live in lakewood. </p> <p>question the way you write you seem like a psycologist, by any chance you in that field? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2573 Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:39:42 +0000 Think BIG 2573@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Joseph, Thank you, I appreciate that.</p> <p>I definitely enjoyed my visits here, just trying not to think of the immense amount of time I wasted. If I thought anybody took something positive away from all this, it may be partially redeeming. It certainly gave me food for thought. But honestly, I feel in all "yatza sechoro behefsedo". </p> <p>I noticed several of the bloggers on this site comment on the guilty concience they have with the time we waste and the fact that this is on the internet. I guess I justified it for myself because I know that this will be left here, and I don't have this yetzer hara at home. Be it as it may, I hope that some kiddush Hashem can come out of this and that we will all grow from this give and take. (That is the point is it not?) But I would certainly advise those that have misgivings about this to follow the dictates of their concience. As for me, I hope Moshiach will long be here before I take my next vacation and think about logging on. And once that happens, there won't be any point because there won't be anything left to argue on, right? TEIKU!</p> <p>Hatzlacha Rabbah to you too, Joseph, and all of you. (I will still be here a few more days) </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2566 Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:20:43 +0000 Think BIG 2566@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>lgbg,<br /> I'm sorry that seemed to hit a raw nerve by you, but it seems you simply misunderstood my words to poshut. i said, "The frum kehilla in Lakewood is not comparing themselves to Anystreet, USA! They are comparing themselves to how bnos yisroel (and Bnei Yisroel) should look, and perhaps to the standards they held until then, which has fallen"<br /> I wasnt steriotyping the girls at all. I was talking about the kehilla as a whole (ie. the standards that the Gedolim in Lakewood have for the kehilla.) The point was that the Gedolim realized that there was a general decline in the Tznius in the collective community. (obviously not everyone, that would be rediculous. But enough people to cause them to take action, meaning the asifa)</p> <p>If your personal Tznius has remained strong or gotten better, kol hakavod to you, and keep it up. But many of your friends or neighbors may feel differently. </p> <p>For your information, I know nothing at all about the girls in Lakewood, and never intimated that I do. I don't live there, or anywhere close by. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2527 Thu, 07 Aug 2008 10:03:43 +0000 lgbg 2527@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>think big</p> <p>it sounds like your really knowledgable with the girls in lakewood.</p> <p>i love how everyone stereotypes lakewood, as if were all one type.</p> <p>WAKE UP WE ARE NOT! </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2511 Thu, 07 Aug 2008 00:01:26 +0000 Joseph 2511@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Think BIG:</p> <p>Yasher koach for that, and your other, vertelach.</p> <p>Also I would like to thank you for dropping by and visiting us during your time off now. I hope that you will bless us with future visits, time permitting.</p> <p>Hatzlocha Rabba on everything. (Better early, in case we miss each other closer to your departure date.) </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2487 Wed, 06 Aug 2008 22:22:16 +0000 Think BIG 2487@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Thank you to all of the above who take the time to say kind words.<br /> Gavra, your story is a good example, but I wouldn't teitch it up like you did, that ppl are too quick to judge. It comes from good old fashioned ignorance. He thought he was doing you a favor by saving you from treif. The answer is to go learn!</p> <p>Poshuteh Yid: About my earlier post that you still wish to respond to, I am looking forward to reading it. But as i mentioned in the other thread, I will be leaving the scene soon (next week), and I have no (convenient) access to the internet after that.</p> <p>In regards to the point you made about the tznius in Lakewood, again, I must respectfully disagree with your outlook. you write, "I am not saying tznius is not something to worry about, I am saying that when one is already in the 95th percentile, compared to Anystreet, USA, how much room is there for improvement? "<br /> The frum kehilla in Lakewood is not comparing themselves to Anystreet, USA! They are comparing themselves to how bnos yisroel (and Bnei Yisroel) should look, and perhaps to the standards they held until then, which has fallen. As I said, and I will reiterate: Man came down to this world to perfect themselves. Complacency with our avodas Hashem has no place in yiddishkeit.<br /> Your comment reminds me of the son-in-law in the following well known story:<br /> A rich man who lived out of town wanted a chassan for his daughter. He traveled to the most prestigous yeshiva and picked out a chassan who was a big masmid- He learned 18 hours a day! The couple got married and moved to the home of the rich man, because the father-in-law promised to support.<br /> At first the son-in-law kept up his rigorous scuedule of learning 18 hours aday. Then he started decreasing to 14, then 12, then 10...The father-in law confronted him about it. The son-in-law answered in defense, "what's the problem? I still learn the most hours a day than anybody else in this town!"<br /> And guess what, Mr. Poshute Yid: It is probably safe to say that compared to Anystreet USA- Klal Yisroel AS A WHOLE is in the 95th percentile in all areas of human existensce. Would you still say "how much room is there for improvement??" </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2475 Wed, 06 Aug 2008 20:29:43 +0000 ujm 2475@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Bowzer,<br /> And if you admit you are doing something wrong it becomes okay? (Hey I kill people... but I never deny it! ) Bowzer, please take a step back, close your browser and keep it that way.</p> <p>I don't expect to see any response. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2463 Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:52:01 +0000 enlightenedjew 2463@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Pashuteh Yid makes a good point that makes me feel the need to post something that I've thought about for a long time:</p> <p>"It is too long for now, but the Chareidi world is very frightened about anything that will cause the kids to go off the derech. What they do not realize, is that the hysterical fear itself is what is really causing the kids to go off. It is mamash like living in a witch-hunt. I don't know how one can take it living in certain neighborhoods. I am willing to bet that the Vaad Hatznius will lead to less tznius on the whole, as kids and families snap under the pressure, and go their own way."</p> <p>I'd go so far as to amend the post from "the Chareidi world" to "the Ashkenazi world".<br /> Ashkenazic culture as a whole seems far, far more paranoid, frightened, and guilty about this than does Sefardic culture. Has anyone noticed (anecdotally, mind you) a lack of severe REBELLIOUS behavior amongst non-religious Sefardim? Their "freier" generally still maintain a strong Jewish identity, and behave far more traditionally (i.e., they will pop into shul, wear tefillin, etc now and then) than freier Ashkenazim. The posionous acrimony one finds between frei or "frei-ish" and frum Ashkenazim does not seem to exist on the same level amongst Sefardim.<br /> Why is this? Why does it seem that Ashkenazi minhagim &#38; practices seem a bit (sometimes more than a bit) more stringent, rigid, and formulaic than their Sefardi counterparts? I believe that historical circumstance plays a large role here, NOT necessarily halacha per se. Ashkenazim went through hideous torture, persecution, and bloodshed for thousands of years at the hands of mainly Christians and Nazi-influenced societies. The natural sociological reaction to such a history could be reactionary conservatism, that is to say an extreme emphasis on religious and cultural preservation; Asheknazi culture , practice, and general approach and outlook to Jewish life became somewhat more rigid, insular, and formulaic as a result. Deviation in the slightest from even non-halachic practice &#38; minhag became thoroughly discouraged and considered as almost a deviation from d'oraisa halachos itself, all to ensure that the Jewish faith continue to hold together under even the most extreme physical persecution and emotional duress.</p> <p>Sefardim never had such a long history of intense, bloody, and constant persecution as did their Ashkenazic brethren (aside from the Inquisition in the 15th century) because in part they lived mostly under non-Christian rulers whose attempts at persecution and intimidation were only sporadic in nature - is it any accident that the Golden Age of Jewry in Spain occurred under Moorish stewardship of that country? Sefardi culture and approach to living a Torah life took on a different, "looser" flavor as a result.<br /> Some random examples that come to mind:<br /> 1. Many Sefardim have a formula for havdala but play with the wording and insert some personal tefilos within the havdala tefila ITSELF - something that would be considered unthinkable for Ashkenazim. Ashkenazim generally frown on free-form prayer within the davning structure.<br /> 2. Sefardim are generally more accepting, on the whole, of fellow Jews whose religious observance may or may be more or less strict than their own (I'd venture to say that one doesn't find shul divisions by Sefardim as one does by Ashkenazim - do people really find "yeshivishe" and "modern" labels on Sefardi shuls?).<br /> 3. R' Yehudah Ha-Levi wrote many beautiful piyutim and tefilos and was an incredible holy person - who also happened to be a philosopher and secular poet. The Rambam was a philosopher who admired Aristotle (but understood Aristotles flaws and limitations vis a vis HKBH).<br /> I could go on and on and on...</p> <p>Food for thought then - Pashuteh Yid wrote that "hysterical" fear of assimilation and it's manifestation in "chareidi" (I say possibly "Ashkenazi") practices can have the OPPOSITE effect - to drive young people to more bitter and vicious resentment towards Judaism. I'd agree, but I'd also argue that that resentment wouldn't be against Judaism per se, rather, subconsciously, against the specific Asheknazi approach or weltaunschaung WITHIN Yahadus. Is it possible then that the Ashkenazi outlook, approach, and culture, born and developed in the crucible of persecution from Constantine the Great in the 4th century C.E. up until the Holocaust era, has a little less relavance in our world today, where the bloody persecution and hate exist on a FAR more diminished level than they did in years &#38; centuries past? Does an ultra-conservative approach as reaction to then-current circumstances (constant physical and mental persecution) still apply or is effective when those circumstances no longer really exist, to nearly the same extent?</p> <p>Just food for the brain to chew on. Comments? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2452 Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:41:54 +0000 Native Israeli 2452@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Bowzer</p> <p>they say practice what u preach<br /> now if u don't want to practice it then please don't preach it--sorta looks silly </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2447 Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:02:37 +0000 lgbg 2447@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>think big</p> <p>trust me i didnt lose any sleep over it. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2440 Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:14:05 +0000 Will Hill 2440@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Bowzer:<br /> You are suggesting that YW is wrong for being on the internet. Why don't you tell them that? If they disappear, all this wrongfulness we are all engaged in will stop!<br /> And why is a "heter" needed? It isn't a halcha. And where is it written that email is kosher but yw is not? How is email more kosher than yw? Who made up this rule? The takanos I saw made no such distinction.<br /> One you have a kosher connection, why should it matter what kosher activity you do, be it yw or be it a nice email to some1? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2413 Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:39:11 +0000 Pashuteh Yid 2413@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Think big, that was a very nice post, and I still owe you a reply to an earlier post. Very booked up this week and next, but will get to it IY"H. I appreciate your civility and sticking to the point without the insults and the empty slogans that some use. In general, anything one says should be followed by a hesber, or it is just wasted words, and you take the time to do so.</p> <p>One quick point, not living in Lakewood, I had no idea of the status there, and was not aware of any recent breach. I just know from a few visits and simchas a while back that they all seem to dress fine according to all halachic opinions. Since these are bnai torah, one would expect that they know the halachos quite well. Nobody here has supplied any of the gory details of what the exact problem or change is. I am not saying tznius is not something to worry about, I am saying that when one is already in the 95th percentile, compared to Anystreet, USA, how much room is there for improvement? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2396 Wed, 06 Aug 2008 09:56:30 +0000 gavra_at_work 2396@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Yasher Koach Think Big!</p> <p>My rebbe always said that a hat and jacket is the uniform of Hashem's army, and when you wear the uniform its hard not to play the part. </p> <p>But also Y"K for noting it is not the end all, and it is not required to be a Torah Yid.</p> <p>Your post reminds me of being at a chol hamoed pesach outing, and someone (older) telling me that the matza and cream cheese that I was eating was traife (he didn't eat gebrockts). People are quick to judge. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2376 Tue, 05 Aug 2008 23:58:51 +0000 Bowzer 2376@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Joseph - you know very well that one there is a big difference between e-mail and web sites. email is not part of the takana. I verfied this with Rav Gans shlita. Nobody should take a psak from this thought. 2. All the rabbonim who say not to use the internet only allow it's use for parnasa and you know that, if a rav gives you a heter to eat a med that has shark cartalige in it are you than allowed to eat shark meat when ever you want? using the internet for work is a heter and you know it- who gave you a heter to use the web for non parnasa sites? At least I admitt that I am doing something wrong. I chanllange you to ask your Rav what he thinks about this web site. I know what my Rav would say. I am a doing something wrong.<br /> My yeshiva gave anit-zionist speaches becasue the man in charge of wasting our has a very low self esteem and needs to build himself up on the backs of others. zionism is not a tayva- american culture (I did go to yeshiva in america also) is a tayva we are fighting every day. there are almost no zionist left anymore. and most of the one who are left live in the US.</p> <p>Think Big- you made some very inresting and good points. Yaashar Koach! </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2347 Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:23:15 +0000 Think BIG 2347@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>lgbg: Just curious, but also just teasing. Don't worry about it.<br /> Less chumras. Thank you. What i expressed here is alot of my general hashkafos in life that ive come to believe over the years rolled into a few paragraphs.:) </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2345 Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:16:09 +0000 Think BIG 2345@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>To bowzer. The brisker Roshei yeshiva (including R Avrom Yeshua) gave/gives shmuessen that included anti-zionistic remarks </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2320 Tue, 05 Aug 2008 17:02:17 +0000 Joseph 2320@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Bowzer,</p> <p>Your Yeshiva may have the speakers giving frequent anti-zionism shmoozen for the same reason that in America we get many shmoozen how bad secular American culture is. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2318 Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:54:59 +0000 Joseph 2318@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Bowzer, I understand the takano is that you should not have access except if you need it for parnasa. If you have it, it should be filtered. Once you have filtered access I don't know of any takanos from accessing general kosher sites. If you are aware of a takano otherwise, please advise me what exactly the takano is and who issued it. Additionally, if we are to assume you are correct, then it would be assur to (for example) send an e-mail to your brother (wishing him mazal tov, or whatever), since it is not for parnasa. Furthermore, your taina then would be with YW and you should contact YW Editor and advise him to kindly shut down this site since its entire targeted audience is prohibited from utilizing it. Am I understanding you correctly? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2315 Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:24:12 +0000 lesschumras 2315@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>to Think Big</p> <p> That is one of the best, most reasoned responses I've ever read here. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius/page/4#post-2308 Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:30:48 +0000 lgbg 2308@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>think big</p> <p>thank you, and why are you asking? </p>