http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration YWN Coffee Room » Topic: Out Of The Mailbag: (Taking Issue With School Administration) en-US Sun, 12 Feb 2012 14:48:01 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/search.php http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-17997 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:23:53 +0000 gavra_at_work 17997@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>GivPerf:</p> <p>Yes, but when you have conflicting parties you will have conflicting opinions as to what Daas Torah is (as we have seen in the CR!)</p> <p>There is also the issue of the board having the fidicuary responsibility to the school, and that might be something to take into account.</p> <p>Ask your LOR is always a good answer. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-17981 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:05:03 +0000 GivPerf 17981@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>After reading through this thread, I feel that I have to say that I worked in 3 different frum girls' schools over a period of two years. I was paid every month, on time, and when I worked overtime, I was paid extra as well. No, the schools were not rich (at least two of them are known for lack of funds), but they know that the key to good chinuch is having teachers who are happy to be working for them. I truly feel for the people who have had negative experiences working in chinuch, but I must say that I really enjoyed it.</p> <p>Gavra_at_work: A school that teaches Torah should stay open as long as it is able to. Only competent daas Torah can decided that the cons of staying open outweigh the benefits of teaching Torah. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-16948 Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:38:22 +0000 gavra_at_work 16948@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Why does YWN not post anything about Bais Faiga and the situation in Lakewood?</p> <p>Mod: OK to delete if that is still in effect. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-16890 Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:33:42 +0000 gavra_at_work 16890@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Better than starting a new topic.</p> <p>There has been much talk about this in the recent days. When should a school close due to lack of money, if ever?</p> <p>Should the parents make the decision? The teachers? The board? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-16878 Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:23:43 +0000 squeak 16878@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Ahh, the mailbag. Makes me remember when there was no CR... </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-16839 Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:41:57 +0000 gavra_at_work 16839@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>What is a school supposed to do if there is just no money? Close? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-2281 Tue, 05 Aug 2008 10:25:11 +0000 cherrybim 2281@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Most yeshivas are privately owned businesses and that is how the owners operate them. They use tzadaka funds; fundraising dinners; government programs; federation grants; PTA; foundation grants; etc. This is all part of the business of owning a school. In spite of this, and while I don’t have children in Lakewood, I have been supporting the Lakewood Cheder School for many years. However, I feel that every Jewish child deserves a Yeshiva education, no matter what. This is where Chabad has I over us by far. Chabad has accepted all of the children who have been rejected by our schools. No questions asked. We ought to be ashamed. Although it will turn my stomach, I will continue to support these Yeshivos who reject our children. Why, good question. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-1132 Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:27:50 +0000 jent1150 1132@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>to mom18 page 4...egrah d'perka ois 82 in hagoas htzvi latzadik.. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-886 Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:04:11 +0000 mom18 886@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>To the mom of 2 daughters.</p> <p>I'm sorry your daughters had the experience they did.</p> <p>And I am not justifying it in any way. </p> <p>Dishonesty in business dealings is one of the BIG questions asked when we go 'UPSTAIRS'</p> <p>But since they've experienced the disillusionment, 2 things will come out of it.</p> <p>a. Just because people DRESS or TALK a certain way, doesn't mean they ARE that way. This is a hard lesson, but if you've experienced it firsthand, you'll NEVER forget it.</p> <p>b. There are rotten apples in every basket, but it doesn't mean every basket is FULL of rotten apples (even though, you may always be 'lucky' in picking a rotten one!)</p> <p>Where is the quote that says that there is no bracha in stolen money? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-830 Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:20:10 +0000 gefilta fish 830@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>yidel613 - i'm not the worse type of person - ur worse!!!<br /> i was not maligning anyone - i was stating facts as they were and as i mentioned - my former employer and children were living on a high standard while the teachers werent getting paid!!! I was in threat of being evicted from my home cos i could not pay my rent!!!! and how cud i even be expected to pay childrens school fees!!<br /> you dont know me so dont say 'But when I ask you for help...' cos i help wenever i can wenever i am asked!!!!<br /> just the fact that you say my children deserve to go to public skool shows u do not belong in the administration of yiddishe chinuch - go back to your well paid job where you can talk to ppl however you want and treat everyone like garbage!!<br /> i do sympathise with your family - but certainly not with you - and jus the fact that you allow your family to suffer by having their utilities cut off shows that wen u dont pay ur teachers its cos u DONT CARE. unlike others hu cant!! </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-826 Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:33:31 +0000 Bentzy18 826@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>There really is two sides of the coin here. On one hand there are some administrations that do not act in the way of proper derech eretz and mistreat the teachers and parents alike. Yet there are many who don't fall into that catagory. Where I live there have been 3 yeshivos where I have been involved with (in many capacities) and yet I have witnessed great examples of derech eretz that the adminstration bestows on their staff. Yet I see in other places first hand where they don't.</p> <p> Then there is the other side of the coin "the parent body" where you will find many parents for what ever reason not want to pay their dues in tutuion but expect (or better yet demand) the 5 start level of attention for their kids. Imagine the scene where a set of parents where begging for tuition breaks for thier kids, but then found in a 5 start hotel in Aruba. (with the entire family) Or the mother that has the 3,000 dollar sheitel, 2,000 dollar purse, all the kids in designer clothsm 2-3 cleaning ladies (one live in) and yet not have the funds to pay tuition. So I see where Yid613 is coming from (but still was rude and uncalled for the way he posted).</p> <p> The bottom line the parent body is what makes up a school. If we tolerate a staff that is insensitive or refuse to pay what we can (apose to paying only what we want) then we will get the type of school where such terrible things happen. If we are to speak up and be involved, then the level will increase and all will benifit. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-717 Mon, 07 Jul 2008 22:00:02 +0000 oomis1105 717@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>To Yid613: Your harsh remarks about parents being ingrates and deserving to send their children to public school, really appalled me. What on earth did any of that have to do with the fact that people are complaining that their children or spouses have worked in Yeshivahs and not been paid - or have been outright cheated of their pay? You need to re-think your position, and try to understand where your own anger is coming from. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-704 Mon, 07 Jul 2008 12:31:16 +0000 PuhLease 704@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Yid613,<br /> Frankly, with the attitude you have, you have no business being in any form of Jewish education, administration or otherwise. You would put children in public schools, the very worst places for children with delicate neshamos, and punish the children because the parents are suffering?</p> <p>Somehow, I doubt that you are in PERSONAL (as you put it) debt, but if you are, than join the rest of us that work three or four jobs, and still cannot afford tuition and groceries and utilities.</p> <p>Teachers, Rabbeim, and Moros work very very hard. We take telephone calls during dinner, bedtime, children's time, our time, before school, after school, etc. We grade papers, do paperwork and make up exams, many times for multiple types of learners, and spend far more than 40+ hours doing it. We do not get paid extra for it. Yes, it is our jobs, and yes, it is our choice, but understand that you sit behind a desk. Occasionally you might deal with discipline issues, but for the most part, you sit behind a desk, go to luncheons, have air conditioning, drive nicer cars, often do not have to pay full or any tuition for your children, deduct your many "business" trips to Florida or Israel as business expenses, even when you take your entire families. We work (and I am an English teacher, and Frum) up until the day of Yom Tov, or late on Fridays (yes, there are still schools, frum Yeshivish ones, that still have full days on Fridays) and every day in between, at the sacrifice of our families and our personal lives, and frankly, often our sanity.</p> <p>Many don't realize this, especially administrations, but the teachers that really care, those of us that are doing this to make a difference, even though we cannot afford it, we take our jobs home with us. We cry over our students at night. We see domestic violence situations, drug and alcohol abuse, and undiagnosed or mistreated learning, health, or behavioral issues. We are always thinking of our students, and how we can make their lives better, and just because the bell rings and we leave, does not mean that we leave our students behind.</p> <p>So, frankly, the fact that you can even say that a person DESERVES to put their children in public school, because you feel that the parents are ingrates, when in truth they are more than likely just looking for a way to put food on the table without having to beg, borrow or steal, in addition to paying asinine amounts of tuition, is disgusting, and you have no business being in education.</p> <p>Everyone else. Thank your teachers. No one else does. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-703 Mon, 07 Jul 2008 12:24:04 +0000 cherrybim 703@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Yid613- Obviously, you are not the owner of the school and are in the same situation as the teachers and other staff. You're attitude and anger, however, is misdirected..it should be against the owners of your school, not the children and parents. If I were you, I'd go back to the "comfortable well paying job" you had before when you were happy. The parents and children are not the cause of your matzav. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-701 Mon, 07 Jul 2008 08:14:02 +0000 eman 701@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Parents of students- I was once in the situation where the school was hopelessly behind in paying the Rabbeeim, and the Rebbe called the parents to pay him. I asked a shailoh and was told , I was pottur mdinei odom but possibly chayyiv b'dinei shomaim. I was advised to pay him if I could afford it which I did. I pulled my kids out of that mosad and my children have been matzliach, more than I could have expected. I attrribute there hatzlocho to my not handling the rebbe.<br /> All parents should make sure that their children's rebbees,moros and teachers are paid b'yahsrus. If parents demand it, it will happen.+ </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-699 Sun, 06 Jul 2008 10:52:51 +0000 e2 699@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Avos 4:7 - "Do not make of the Torah a crown with which to aggrandize yourself, no a spade with which to dig". Why are the two metaphors necessary? The first is an injunction to the student of Torah not to misuse the Torah for his own glory- a "crown". The second is quite the reverse: a warning to the scholar not to permit himself to be abused- a "spade to dig with"- and thereby dishonor the Torah...do not teach yourself only the simple things that everyone needs to know and go forth..to teach..the simple things for a small sum and rely on their measly gifts, given in an undignified manner...people will say woe to this person who studied Torah and earns as much as a woodchopper...rather take a salary that provides income for you..to live honorably..."<br /> -R. Yechiel Michel b. Zvi Hirsch in Le'Zecher Le'Yisroel (as quoted by R. Norman Lamm in Torah Lishmah) </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-698 Sun, 06 Jul 2008 09:18:52 +0000 oomis1105 698@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>While it is true that Batei Din exist, unfortunately as anyone who has been forced to take someone to Beis Din has found out, it is very hard to get satisfaction from the experience. My husband after much anguish, made the decision to take his Yeshivah employers to BD for owing him over $2,200. He had not been paid his salary in months, but being a dedicated teacher, continued to work, believing the lies he was told. Finally when he respectfully requested that he be paid the several months' back pay, he was issued three post-dated checks. They were written against an account that had NO money in it. That was what put him in the mode of going to Beis Din. </p> <p>While the BD acknowledged in their p'sak that he was totally right and owed the money, a very simple decision to reach, they had no power to compel the Yeshivah to do the right thing. The yeshivah pled poverty and "agreed" to pay him ONLY half the amount owed, over the course of the year, and he should eat the rest of it. My husband was owed more than 4 times the amount they offered, and he refused to take the money. He had no reason to trust those checks would not bounce also. He also was not letting them feel they were now off the hook, so to speak, to ease their conscience that they paid him, when in fact they were saying,"we know we owe you, but we only want to pay you half." As I said in my other post, there is a din v'cheshbon after 120 years, and the people who did this will have to explain to Ha-Shem how they could be so dishonest as to issue three checks to someone, knowing their were absolutely worthless. My husband did his job well, in spite of not being paid. I am saddened to see history repeat itself 20 years later with my daughter being shafted in the same manner.</p> <p>As to the person who has made the comment that we are motzi shem ra on these mosdos - well, that is specifically why I have not mentioned their names. But truthfully, you are castigating the wrong people here (and in doing so, are guilty yourself of a form of lashon hara), with all due respect. The ganavim, the liars, the fraudulent employees of these Mosdos - THOSE are the people to whom you ought to be directing your remarks and mussar. All any of us has done is bring to light the fact that having a certain amount of power can be corrupting,and just because a person has the title Rabbi or Principal, does not exempt that person from mitzvos bein adam l'chaveiro. </p> <p>When a person promises a salary and then fails to pay it, he is oveir on SO many lahvim, that one would think that a truly "frum" person would be quaking in his boots. It also breeds ill will towards these mosdos and towards frumkeit altogether, to tell someone basically that this is G-d's Will for him to suffer. EVERYTHING is G-d's Will, but that does not mean we should lie back and allow people to make a shamttah out of us. We also have an obligation of "hochayach tochiyach es amisecha." If you see a wrongdoing, or are aware of it happening in the community, we have every right to speak out against that wrongdoing, especially in a public forum, where those people may see themselves in the discussion, and possibly take steps to rectify their outrageous behavior. Please do not blame the victim or his/her support group for bringing these issues to light. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration/page/2#post-693 Sun, 06 Jul 2008 05:54:05 +0000 ZachKessin 693@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>&lt;i&gt;<br /> For the person who bashed the Cleveland school bosses, the other side of that story is that the amount of scholarships that are given at the Cleveland Schools is AMAZING. One school in particular has a guarantee that no child will be turned away for inability to pay and plenty of kids go there paying virtually no tuition. &lt;/i&gt;</p> <p>great but it seems a bit unfair to pay for this by not paying the teachers. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-692 Sun, 06 Jul 2008 03:33:24 +0000 formercrownheightser 692@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>dagim 41:</p> <p>'amoral' does not mean 'lack of love in a relationship'. It means totally without moral standards, whether good or bad. The prefix 'a' indicates the lacking or absence of something, as in 'atonal',-in music, lacking a key or tonal center, or 'asymmetric'-lacking symmetry, 'asepsis'-absence of the microorganisms that produce sepsis. v'chulu. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-690 Fri, 04 Jul 2008 18:58:47 +0000 yid613 690@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>gefiltafish,</p> <p>By the way, My family has gone through worse gehinom than me. I have had my utilities shut off so many times. </p> <p>So I tell you that you are the worst type of person for maligning us like that. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-689 Fri, 04 Jul 2008 18:57:06 +0000 yid613 689@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>gefiltafish,</p> <p>You are right I am in school administration. Words can't describe the gehinom that I have gone through for you ingrates. I left a comfortable well paying job to help out our community. I don't pressure those who can't pay. I have to BEG, sometimes door to door, to be able to pay my teachers on time. I have to place myself in PERSONAL debt for your children. But when I ask you for help, you are all of a sudden not around.</p> <p>I really regret being so naive and believing that you need my help. YOU DESERVE TO SEND YOUR KIDS TO PUBLIC SCHOOL. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-685 Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:10:18 +0000 kollelman 685@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>What we learn from here is:<br /> 1- everyone is Chashud (suspected) for stealing<br /> 2- sometimes we're too naive and don't ask for what's rightfully ours until its too late<br /> 3- torah morals and middot are HARD to come by<br /> 4- teach our kids not to expect anything from anyone---if its yours ASK/DEMAND it<br /> 5- beis dins do exist.... hint hint </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-682 Fri, 04 Jul 2008 06:54:33 +0000 proud of KAJ WH TIDE 682@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>תורה עם דרך ארץ חי וקים </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-681 Fri, 04 Jul 2008 06:50:33 +0000 proud of KAJ WH TIDE 681@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Unfortunately,the letter writer reflects what is happening in the "frum" world too much.It has been kept quiet because people are afraid of 'loshon horah'<br /> Trouble is,that those in power take advantage of the good-natured young (and not-so-young) honest workers and use blackmail to harrass those who need a parnosso.These behaviors are not limited to the schools,emploers and private people treat workers like this a lot. Baby sitters don't get paid,delivery boys are cheated. I know,because I've been there.So have my friends and fellow shul-goers. BTW,the word is 'immoral',not 'amoral'.(Amoral means lack of love in a relationship)<br /> And to those who don't like it that this topic is being discussed,that;s too bad. The time has come for the sufferers to be heard! </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-680 Fri, 04 Jul 2008 05:26:09 +0000 gefilta fish 680@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>The first thing I must mention is that according to yidel613's response it is apparently clear that he is part of administration in such a moised or he is heavily nogea bedovor!!! He's right that it may not be nice to talk in such a way about yiddishe moisdes - but ppl are crying out - something has to be done!!<br /> I was a teacher for one year - it is already 2 years since i left and i am still owed my salary for almost half a year - the part that WAS paid, was paid almost a year after I left - now i am BEGGING for my money and am getting different excuses everyday - my boss flys abroad often - as do is children..... i am not telling him how to lead his life - but if he owes teachers money (there are many teachers who havent been paid for years - even the headteacher hasnt been paid for years) maybe he should cut down on personal expenses - even if it rightly his!!!<br /> this is our children who are being educated in such institutions - something must be done about this!! </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-679 Fri, 04 Jul 2008 01:31:37 +0000 willi 679@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I substituted in several heimishe schools, &#38; 1 of them still owes me money from last year. My friend had told me before that I should know that I'll be doing it l'shem mitzva, &#38; I should have listened to her.<br /> (but it really depends on the school, some do pay on time)<br /> In any case when I realized that I'll never see the $$ from them, I removed myself from their list! </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-678 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:47:03 +0000 gamzultova 678@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>For the person who bashed the Cleveland school bosses, the other side of that story is that the amount of scholarships that are given at the Cleveland Schools is AMAZING. One school in particular has a guarantee that no child will be turned away for inability to pay and plenty of kids go there paying virtually no tuition. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-677 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:21:05 +0000 youngmom 677@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>While I'm appalled at what happened to your daughters, there is a lot of motzei shem ra on our yeshivos.<br /> A few years back, while in college, I worked as a teacher assistant in a Brooklyn Girls school and as a teacher in a Brooklyn Boys Yeshiva. I got paid ON TIME and FULLY for what we had made up (verbally) at the beginning of the year. It was a wonderful experience for me and while I would have continued teaching, sadly it doesn't pay as well as my proffession.<br /> PLease dont' generalize and throw all Bais Yaakovs and Yeshivos together. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-675 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:07:27 +0000 gamzultova 675@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I hate to say, but when we give our girls an education that only allows them to work in frum schools, the supply exceeds the demand and administrators that want to cut corners with halacha and derech eretz can find many easy replacements, which means they have no external incentive to change their behaviour. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-672 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:26:08 +0000 cherrybim 672@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>To: Samuelbilner - It’s funny how we have all these posts by Yidden who don’t know each other, yet one would think that they are all writing about the same yeshiva. The tragedy is that they are all writing about different yeshivas and mosdos but all with a common storyline. </p> <p>You post that you have “ gotten tricked a couple of times but it was really my fault.” Who has the persecution complex here? Do you really have to be on guard when dealing with a “klei kodesh” organization? You say that “There are 2 perspectives at play”. Well, there should only be only one – the straight and honest one – echod b’pe v’echod b’lev. </p> <p>You say that the posters are making “stereotypical slander..and are chote umachti es harabim, malshin umikatreig on Klal Yisroel with some drivel…May you learn from your mistakes” Look whose calling the kettle black with your broad based accusations. There are people learning G’mara day and night in the Conservative Seminary. Does this affect them “for the good”?</p> <p>At a wedding, the Satmer Rav (R. Yoel) gave the badchan permission to imitate the Rebbe. Upon doing so the rebbe began to cry. The Rebbe explained that the badchan was very good at coping the Rebbe. But he said, it made him realize that at times the Rebbe will also imitate himself perfectly.</p> <p>A New York Catholic cardinal once said publicly that by persecuting the Jews, the Christians gave the Jews the gift of suffering. This sounds like something you posted- “we must bear in mind is that if we lose money or have aggravation, it is not without Hashem's will. All pain and suffering is dearly counted above”. </p> <p>It is not for us to give comfort to someone else’s pain by publicly telling them that suffering is good. That’s musser one can learn for a private situation or a gadol can attribute it to an historical event. </p> <p>Have a good Shabbos. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-669 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:58:32 +0000 Avrohom Abba 669@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>This problem is easily ignored so I hope the mother of the two daughters will copy all these comments and that she sends them to the tricksters and swindlers and phonies who call themselves "FRUM."<br /> They are the same ones who will send a parent away with his son because the father wears a ring and has little money. But they will welcome a child whose parents are obviously not religious, as long as the father agrees never to come in during the school year and pays a large tuition. These are the administrators who very loudly announce to the public, "We only want what is best for the yeshiva." Having TVs at home is easily forgotten when the school gets high tuition fees. At the same time they will hold back salaries, break promises, cancel vacations earlier agreed upon, change the rules they hired her with, alienate their staff and therefore deeply hurt the quality of what is being taught and HOW it is taught, while they think they are just being strict with the staff.<br /> Thieves and fakers, they act self righteous as long as they wear the accepted disguise. But guess what? The public is not quite as dumb as they think. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-668 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:42:07 +0000 oomis1105 668@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>To the parent of the daughters who were so ill-treated by their school employers: I truly empathize with you. I have watched the virtually identical scenario unfold with my own daughter this year. She worked in a well-known girls' elementary Yeshivah in the suburbs for eighteen months and was an amazing assistant Morah in both the first and second grades. She was offered a substantially better paying job after the first year of working in this Yeshivah, in a different Yeshivah in the neighborhood, but really loved the job at the first school, its administration, the teacher with whom she was paired, and most of all, the students. Weighing all the pros and cons, she discussed this candidly with the administrator of the first school, who really wanted her back, and was assured that if she stayed, two important conditions would be met: 1) a certain minimal financial increase would be guaranteed, though she really asked for more than that but agreed to settle for a lower amount and 2) she could come in each morning after 9 AM (which was really a crucial factor in her decision), even though the school day started around 8:15. She was not only told that the increase was a done deal, but that the person in charge would even try to get a little more, which would be closer to what she originally requested. She was foregoing several thousand dollars of pay at the other school, because of these assurances.</p> <p>She was asked to do the administrator "a favor" and come in at the 8 AM time (amounting to an extra working hour every day for five days each week, for which she had not agreed to work)until after Succos however, because they were short on coverage and did'nt yet have an assistant for that one hour. Needless to say, that one hour each day until after Succos, turned into " we don't have anyone yet," for several months. My daughter felt bad for the adminstrator not having the coverage, as well as for the classroom teacher, so she continued to do this, because she is a responsible and caring, dedicated employee, who wanted things to run smoothly in the class. And it was only going to be for a short while, right?</p> <p>Each month, as her paycheck came around, she saw that she was not being paid based on the gross salary to which she had agreed. And no, there was NO written agreement, exactly as described by the original poster. "No one has written contracts, here." was what was told to her. As she had no problem the first year, she had no reason to expect a problem in the next one. WRONG! She came to speak to the administrator and to the bookkeeper (who had never been informed of the raise, by the way), and was told it would be straightened out. After being given a runaround for several months, and respectfully requesting that the oral contract be honored, she was told that the conversation had never taken place, and she was never told she would be paid what she agreed to be paid. Mind you, she was not even being paid for the extra HOURS each week, even based on a non-raised salary.And she never HAS been paid for those hours.</p> <p>The administrator at one point acknowledged that my daughter was correct, but then did a 180 degree turnaround virtually the next day and again denied that she had ever agreed to my daughter's terms. My daughter is an extremely honorable person (which is why she continued to work under these dishonorable circumstances),and it shook her to the core to see that someone she admired and trusted completely could be so unworthy of that trust. At best, this administrator is an incompetent fool, who cannot keep track of her own conversations (and she kept writing things down on little pieces of paper every time my daughter spoke with her, month after month). At worst, she is an outright liar and guilty of gneivas daas, because she made promises to my daughter which she had no intention of keeping, in order not to lose her as a teacher. As I said, my daughter is an outstanding teacher and beloved by both her students and the teachers whom she assists. She is a consummate pro, and never let her anger and upset prevent her from doing her job and giving it her all each day.</p> <p>She eventually became so disillusioned, that after the administrator lied to her for the millionth time, she calmly got up in January and told her, that unless this was immediately straightened out once and for all, she would not be back. I am not sure the administrator believed she would go through with it, but my daughter had had enough. She was immediately snatched up by another school where she has worked until the end of the school season.</p> <p>There is so much more to this story, that I cannot even put into words. Frankly I hope this administrator is reading these words and seeing herself in the story. Maybe she will even have charata and do teshuva for the anguish she put my daughter through, with her deceit and procrastination at doing what she promised to do.There is a din v'cheshbon for all of some day after 120 years, and I am sure she will "have some 'splainin' to do," at that time. I urged my daughter to take the school to a Beis Din, but she did not want to bring shame to the school or to its administrator, who is well thought of in our community. Personally, I think that someone this unable to run a school honestly and/or competently should not be in such a position of authority and good standing in a community. But what do I know - I'm just someone's mother. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-667 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:25:04 +0000 Truehonesty 667@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>How very very sad!</p> <p>I live in the Holy Land and perhaps I am naive but I think that BH BH BH the situation here is MUCH better. There are various reasons: 1) Most schools take government assistance and then all legal staff have their wages regulated by the Education Ministry. The extra "illegal" limudei kodesh teachers or rebbis usually get paid similar salaries though without the perks of pensions etc. 2) All schools insist on receiving 12 monthly checks (or a signed Direct Debit form) before the beginning of the school year to cover the tuition fees. This usually means that the hanhola know what their budget is for the year and make promises accordingly. 3) In the schools that my kids attend, there is a certain unwritten relationship between all the rebbis or teachers that all the staff would rebel against the hanhola if they would dare to treat one of them so badly. No principal can survive a mutiny from all his teachers and his school will collapse (and his cash-cow would die!). They will back down so quickly when they see 15 rebbis including their prize mechanchim taking a stand and refusing to cooperate with the principal on any matters until this rebbi receives what is due to him. Can this not happen in the USA? </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-666 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:24:22 +0000 charlie brown 666@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <blockquote><p> It's the school owners and their heirs who live the comfortable life with the latest leased cars; nicest homes; vacationing and traveling business/first class to Israel and elsewhere.</p> <p>--cherrybim </p></blockquote> <p>How dare you generalize like that? There are plenty of school owners who work day and night without making much money (if any), and certainly without getting much thanks, and they do it l'shem shomayim for the sake of being mechanech your kids. And yes, I'm even talking about girls schools. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-664 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:03:30 +0000 samuelbilner 664@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>just to add, </p> <p>1. <em> I do feel your pain </em> at the shock and traumatic treatment by someone whom they apparently respected. I've been there too and the damage is almost irreparable, but to categorize and say, as one here did, that "They [sic] are amoral rabbis just as there are amoral baalei batim" I think is false. People who devote their lives to Torah learning and dissemination are, in general, affected for the good in moral spheres.</p> <p>2. Another point we must bear in mind is that if we lose money or have aggravation, it is not without Hashem's will. All pain and suffering is dearly counted above, nothing forgotten. This may not diminish you feelings of anger and loss but you should not lose your focus. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-662 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:41:28 +0000 samuelbilner 662@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I agree with yid613, your letter mirrors my reaction upon reading this. </p> <p>I've worked in many mosdos and businesses, and have advised many along the way. You have to get a clear contract when you begin work. It also is imperative to know who you are dealing with. How can you begin teaching somewhere without getting references from those who have been there. I have gotten "tricked" a couple of times but it was really my fault. There are 2 perspectives at play and you are bound to have misunderstandings if you are not clear up-front.</p> <p>That said, how dare you write this letter and malign Mosdos the world over?!? You felt you had to let out some resentment for what befell your poor daughters, but where is your feeling of culpability? I am not proposing blaming the victim alone, but how can you and the other commenters make such generalizations and stereotypical slander??</p> <p>Anecdotal points are sweet, and yes, of course there are problems, issues and crises in the schools, but why are you paskening on everyone? Why be chote umachti es harabim, malshin umikatreig on Klal Yisroel with some drivel? Even in your own cases, there are 2 sides in every Din Torah and you fail to emote another perspective.</p> <p>May you live to learn from your mistakes and others and move on in life without remaining with a persecution complex to hamper your life's purpose here.</p> <p>Have much nachas from your entire Mishpacha, and a great Shabbos! </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-660 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:23:07 +0000 cherrybim 660@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Hey, yid613, wake up and smell the coffee.<br /> It's the teachers and staff that are moser nefesh to teach our children and they are grossly underpaid. It's the school owners and their heirs who live the comfortable life with the latest leased cars; nicest homes; vacationing and traveling business/first class to Israel and elsewhere.<br /> You say that you are "ashamed to see that these posters are "frum yidden who are yarei shamayim"". Instead of being ashamed at the victims, you ought to be ashamed at the those who are stealing from our moras and rabbeim.<br /> You also say that since it costs "between 12,000 - 14,000 a year" to educate a child, "you had better keep quiet". Do you think the owners take one nickel out of their pockets to educate the students? Didn't you ever hear of fundraising; dinners; government programs; federation grants; PTA; foundation grants; etc.?<br /> This is all part of the business of owning a school. Halavai the teachers should be the beneficiaries of some of the grants so they can be paid on time and live somewhat decently. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-657 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:51:24 +0000 justWhatWeNeed 657@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Let's not forget R' Chiya, please. If this is how we're educating our children, then R"L. Hashem please help us all. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-656 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:49:51 +0000 justWhatWeNeed 656@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Not at all shocking, but if you want out of yiddishkeit because of it you should probably take stock of why you're frum. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-651 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:57:07 +0000 WolfishMusings 651@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p><em>My wife worked for a chesed organization when she was single. She didn't get her paycheck at the end of the month. When she inquired about it, she was told that there was no money available. When she asked when it would be available, she was told that since it's a tzedakah organization, she should deduct this payment off of her current or future maaser money. Needless to say, she quit right then and there.</em></p> <p>That's outright theft! Not only would I have quit, I would have called them in to a din Torah or to court. </p> <p>The Wolf </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-649 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:26:30 +0000 yid613 649@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I have to say that I am appalled. By The Yeshivah world Website, and by the posters here. Of course this is a very sad story, and should be addressed, like any other business machlokes. </p> <p>BUT, to malign all schools, or even just girls schools is terrible. Do you have any idea what sacrifice the owners and administrators put into these schools to help YOUR children. What a bunch of kafuy Tovah. They practically give up their lives to start and maintain these schools, and the action of a few individuals (of course we never heard their side before judging them) ruins the rest of the bunch. </p> <p>YOU PEOPLE SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES. </p> <p>Yeshivah World News, what do you think Hashem is thinking right know that you have a hand in maligning (one sided) all the Mosdos that are sacrificing Lisheim Shamayim. Whose side do you want to be on after 120 years, the mosdos, or these people who are completely thankless.</p> <p>And one more point, "these mosdos are cash cows". That is 1. insulting 2. for most girls schools completely not true. 3. is there something wrong for mosdos to be in the black? or do they have a chiyuv to always struggle? </p> <p>Obviously, you think that they owe you an free education. let me tell you, unless they charge you exactly what is costs them to educate your child (between 12,000 - 14,000 a year) you had better keep quiet. </p> <p>I am ashamed to see that these posters are "frum yidden who are yarei shamayim"</p> <p>I am truly ashamed, and am crying for those special individuals that sacrifice so much for these complete ingrates.</p> <p>Yeshiva World, consider changing your name, because if THIS represents the Torah world I WANT OUT !!!! </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-647 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:58:41 +0000 gavra 647@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>My wife worked for a chesed organization when she was single. She didn't get her paycheck at the end of the month. When she inquired about it, she was told that there was no money available. When she asked when it would be available, she was told that since it's a tzedakah organization, she should deduct this payment off of her current or future maaser money. Needless to say, she quit right then and there. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-644 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:32:59 +0000 got it all right 644@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>it is a HUGE problem that many ppl. in our community think that if they are working in a chesed position - tzedaka or klai kodesh type, that it is ok to do whatever works out best for them - not pay bills, abuse their workers ect...as if the ends justify the means....how sad for them, when they will relaize that they would have been better off being an honest buisness person, rather then a cheating osaik betzrchai tzibur.... </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-642 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:06:57 +0000 zamilenger 642@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Avrohom, welcome to the real world. Old news that Girl schools are a cash cow.</p> <p>Rest of writers; Then we wonder why we have so many NOSHRIM; kids that go off the deerech! Koach Hapoel B'Nifal. Unless someone (or many) will have the guts to take them to Din Tora and if that does not help to COURT (with Din Tora Permission) nothing is gonna change. But then again they will be blacklisted.</p> <p>Very sad indeed. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-640 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:53:57 +0000 educator 640@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>this is why some of our best teachers go to public school. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-638 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:36:54 +0000 PointedQuestions 638@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>I feel for the writer, as well as for the other mistreated mechanchim and mechanchos who posted here.</p> <p>I would suggest that these dedicated proffesionals go to an out-of-town school where you will be respected, treated like a mentsch, and make a real difference in Klal Yisrael. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-632 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:12:15 +0000 Bentzy18 632@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Kismich, I think it goes without saying that all people have a din cheshbon regardless of where you work. If a person were to choose a field outside of chinuch world, that should not be put down or looked at in any deragotory way. However, when onr chooses to go into the field of Chinuch there is a higher standard that must follow. I can't see anyway around it. This is the foundation of education and the representation of what Yiddishkeit means to our children. When children (of all ages) see someone in chinuch doing something wrong, it is associated with how they see the torah. In a kids eyes, if a principal can yell at a morah then it must be that Derech eretz not important. While we can't expect them to be malachim, they still need to be accountable for their actions or at least have remorse and do their best that the negative are not repeated. </p> <p> In this light there are terrible things happening and the end result is that the image of chinuch is devalued in the process. Right now in Lakewood there are girls going into 9th grade that don't have a school to go to. As the story goes there were too many applicants in one particular school and many girls didn't put down a second choice. So while this is going on several girls did apply to the other schools and were rejected due to lack of space. However, they just re-opened up the regestration to accoomidate those girls but yet still don't have a place for those girls who did apply? These girls were highly respected in their classes but since their families are not the typical black hat types they are rejected. What kind of message is that? These girls are willing to live up to the standards that are set by the school system but are not given the chance to even try. </p> <p> I'm fortuanate to be able to send my kids to a school that does have moral standings. They make sure that they are honest when dealing with the government (they give an exact count of which kids get lunch from the government and when a kid is apsent they don't mark him down). They treat they rebbiem and morahs with the highest level of respect and it filters down to the students. </p> <p> It is up to us, the parent body to make sure the right image is given. Are we more woried about how many pusikim are covered that year or that derech eratez kodmo l'torah? Instead of worrying about which types of students get in we should be worried of what types of students will come out of our schools. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-630 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:37:43 +0000 charliehall 630@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Are these Orthodox schools? I though paying employees the correct wage on time was a Torah requirement. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-629 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:29:45 +0000 Bowzer 629@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>Been there done that<br /> and having a contract doesn't help. I had one this year, the school owes me $10,000, I took my boss to Bais Din,he didn't show up till the third time at which he asked the case be momoved to a different BD, bkitzur playing games. I paid my babysitter on time, and it cost me money to get to school and I have a contract, so what should I do?<br /> I am not teaching there next year, and maybe not at all. I also was once a dedicated teacher of high school students who spent hours of my time taling to them. I asked some parents to help me out, and they tried, but they are afraid of upsetting the princp lest there daughter get kicked out.<br /> One of the brachos in the shmena eseri is to restore Bais din to what it once was. </p> http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-taking-issue-with-school-administration#post-628 Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:29:17 +0000 Aleen1 628@http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/ <p>This is why you should go into a professional field where things are relatively straight forward and honest. sorry your daughters went through this though it is a good lesson </p>