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Is the Angel of Death involved in every death, and is it possible for me to kill somebody without the help of the ???? ?????
The ???? says that ????? ???, there is a commandment to build three new ??? ???? (Cities of Refuge). If, however, it is impossible to kill without the ???? ????, based on the ???? ?? ??? that ???”? will ‘shecht’ the ???? ????, why would one need a ??? ???? to function for murderers? It sounds like a proof that it is possible to kill without assistance.
Another proof can be brought from the ?? ???? – the ???? suggests that ???? is ???? from the ???? ???, and the ???? pushes away the suggestion by saying ??? ???? ????? ????. It sounds like the ???? is saying that it provides protection only from the ???? ????, but the ???? ??? can still come and kill the murderer!
Thirdly, even after the ???? ???? is destroyed, if one were to cut up another person into six parts, i do not believe that the victim would continue to live.
Any thoughts, proofs or remarks on this topic?
Yekke2
In the Torah by the Avos and Moshe Rabbeinu and Aharon it says “vayigva” which means they died a missas neshika from Hashem no malach hamaves involved.
Regarding the future, Im not so clear on the sequence of events but its likely that ghe shechting of the malacha hamaves will be at a later time than the building of these arei miklat. Btw is this future arei miklat discussed?
The additional three new Cities of Refuge that will be established when Moshiach comes will serve for all the murders done PRIOR to Moshiach’s arrival, during the time of our exile. After all, when Moshiach arrives, “the ruach hatumah will be removed from the land” (Rambam end of Hilchos Melochim).
You can bring proof from the cow.
weather or not the malach a mavet is necessary i don’t know, but i do know you can’t actually kill a person. ill try to explain what i mean but if you don’t understand there is a great podcast called the shmooz he discuses it.
you can’t even lift your hand without H’ allowing you. this is the whole reason why ican do tshuva from bein adam la chavero since anything i do is with the help of H’ he wouldn’t let someone get something bad to happen to them if they didn’t deserve it/ wasn’t best for them. so i am but a messenger (message ilustrated in megilat ester when Mordechai tells Esther that if she doesn’t rise up to the task someone else will) not why is it then a sin if i am carrying out the will oh H’? it is my intention, i wanted to cause harm and in the case of the city of refuge it is i am not careful/ conscious enough about those around me. for this reason when one changes his mind in complete tshuva the sin is erased since the physical harm doesn’t come from you.
As WIY points out, there is missas neshika. Also, see Chagiga 5b concerning the malach hamoves sending out shluchim.
nem621 – Whilst it is true that many acharonim (e.g. Chazon Ish) do say your sevoro, there are shittos that hold that you can kill someone even if HKB’H didn’t ‘want’ (k’vayochol) them to die. The Or Hachaim says so, as does the Zohar and Rambam, so it’s not a ‘kabbalistic vs. rationalist’ thing. It’s rather complicated and so the CR is probably not the place to discuss it.
just my hapence -“nem621 – The Or Hachaim says so, as does the Zohar and Rambam, so it’s not a ‘kabbalistic vs. rationalist’ thing.”
I think the Maharal holds this way too.
yekke2 that a very nice it all made perfect sense unlike most things people say where you have to make it fit
yekke2 – I hear what you say, but am not sure I completely understand it. What is life? What is death? And what is a person who is neither alive nor dead – a zombie? A ghost? A vampire? If you are not alive (i.e. you have no life in you) what are you if not dead? If death is not yetzias haneshomo then what is it? And if it is yetzias haneshomo then surely if the neshomo is still there, the person is alive. So what is in between? How does this state of not alive or dead work vis-a-vis the neshomo? If you could clarify for me, that would be much appreciated.
Shaala 2 is a question put to Rebbe Yehoshua in Alexandria, towards the end of Nida. Check there to see what he called this question. I wonder what he would have said about many other, similar, Yeshivishe Qlerrs.
yekke2 –
The Rambam doesn’t say what you said he does.
1) The (Magen Avraham in) Zayis Raanon (on Yalkut Shimoni) asks a similar question. It says ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???. What is the need for ??? ????? He says it fits according to Shmuel who holds ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????. Or, he answers, it’s a Mitzva (/Gzeiras HaKasuv -Minchas Chinuch 520).
2) The Shach (Sifsei Kohen, Parshas Shoftim) says even though the Rambam holds like Shmuel to a certain extent, he surely wouldn’t hold there would be killing in the times of Mashiach (even unintentionally, because it is implied in Makos 10:2 that a person unintentionally kills a person who killed intentionally, and when Mashiach comes there will be no people who kill intentionally, left to be killed, even unintentionally. And the Rambam says “?? ???? ??? ?????” and “?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?? ? ????”. -Lubavitcher Rebbe.) See the Shach’s answer ?? ??? ???? that ???? is ????? ??????.
3) The Maskil Lidavid (on Rashi) states that (though in his opinion according to Shmuel the Pasuk is understandable,) according to the other Man Diamar there obviously needs to be an explanation for the need for ??? ???? in the times of Mashiach as he says ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? and it is stated ??? ???? ????. He offers that the ????? and promise of no killing and similar ?????? only applies to Yidden of those times, not to those who will become Geirim then.
4) There is also the authoritative position of the Arizal (whose teachings are from Eliyahu Hanavi), that all of Hevel’s gilgulim need Tikun through death (like he himself needed), and the Ir Miklat is Michaper and Misaken for those who kill them unintentionally. If we merit that Mashiach comes before “its time” which means before the Tikun is finished (when there won’t be any death at all since ??? ???? ????), there will be a need for (even more) Arei Miklat (and hence the word “??”). But if Mashiach comes in “its time,” after the Tikun is finished, there will be no need for the Arei Miklat. Either way, there will not be any intentional killing and the unintentionall killing will fit into the “Ina Liyado” in Makos 10:2. The Arizal is quoted by the Zayis Raanon and the Maskil Lidovid.
5) The Maskil Lidovid also cites the Shalah. The Shalah proves that not all of the great successes prophesized will be at one time, there may be different periods, but eventually, there will be no death at all.
6) The Alshich offers a similar explanation as the Arizal.
So in response to your question about the Malach Hamaves, maybe Hashem will Shecht the Malach Hamaves after people finish killing unintentionally, after the Tikun of Hevel is finished, at a later period.
And a person with ????? ????? can ?”? be mafsik someone from Torah and then let the ???? ???? finish the job.
But you may be right, since I have no idea what the Malach Hamaves is and how it works.
yekke2: you made my week with that Rogatchover. I recall seeing or hearing a similar idea in Parshas Korach about the mageifah stopping even by the people who were dying but not dead yet.
In Sanhedrin 92b it is Mashma that (at least in Olam Hazeh) someoen who is revived from the dead is Mechuyav in Mitzvos. Otherwise, their Tefillin wouldn’t be Kosher, and they wouldn’t be able to marry.
Now I see that the Ritva you mentioned actually uses this to prove that they are Mechuyav when they get up. Perhaps the Diyuk you are talking about is the Shita that the Ritva is quoting. Although I have to say, it is hard to be Medayek from the on ewho is asking on them. For all you know their answer will be to be Mechalek between Olam Hazeh and the future Techiyas Hameisim. One is an Olam Chadash while the other is a reversal of Misa, maybe.
About the two stages of Misa, the Gemara in Chagiga discusses the difference between dying and finishing the life span. The Malach Hamoves explained that there are times when a person is taken before his time, in which case his Ruach hangs around until his time. This would explain the ghost phenomenon, that the reported sightings are usually from murdered people. Since they were taken before their time they are still hanging around.
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