8 year old gets spit on by chassidim

Home Coffeeroom Decaffeinated Coffee 8 year old gets spit on by chassidim

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  • #601275

    lemaysa
    Member

    what is the torah response to such a horrendous act??is there any rabbi’s that say its mutar to do such a thing….

    still in shock

  • #839996

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The guy is nuts, and should be put in jail.

    Nobody says it is muttar, he is just nuts.

    I agree. And I am calling him out. This is not Judaism.

  • #839997

    skiaddict
    Member

    Please dont call them chasidim, they are not.

  • #839998

    What was the story here?

  • #839999

    lemaysa, give us the whole story please. LIke you could be possibly forgetting some details as to in which context he spat.

    Say like for example, the child was wearing a tzilim around his neck and wouldn’t take it off in shul , esp. during an aliyah.

    Or if the child was spitting first and this was a way of teaching him how it feels to get spit on.

    Or say the chasid was choking in a restaurant and while trying to dislodge the calzone with cheese and brocoli from his tonsils he accidentally spat on the kid.

  • #840000

    dash™
    Participant

    Say like for example, the child was wearing a tzilim around his neck and wouldn’t take it off in shul , esp. during an aliyah.

    You’d have to explain why an 8 year old with a cross is getting an aliyah?

  • #840001

    Imaofthree
    Member

    How sad! We must daven harder for Moshiach to come.

  • #840003

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I dont totally understand the dispute

    But it has to do with a School in Beit Shemesh.

  • #840004

    lemaysa
    Member

    ????? 2 – 23.12.11 – ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?’ ?”????? ?? ????”

    check that out if u want to see the clip of this massive chillul hashem

  • #840005

    ED IT OR
    Member

    whatever the reason, NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO SPIT AT A CHILD, even say he is the child’s father and he thinks he is being mechanech the child, then people around have a chiyuv to protest on the father

  • #840006

    twisted
    Member

    Assara zhuvim is the halachic recompense, and bet din and melech have other means at their disposal for controlling sociopaths. If this was not protested by the PTB, and the “few bad apples” are not “taken out of circulation” it puts the lie to the claims that this is not the normal pr stance of this community.

  • #840007

    apushatayid
    Participant

    the 8 year old girl was not dressed appropriately?

  • #840008

    The evil zionim created this beit shemesh thing- way out of control. And its not an issue of girls not dressing “tznius”. Its an issue of they located the orthodox school in the WRONG DISTRICT;

    Here you have innocent girls going to whatever schools in Beit shemesh, tznius according to their poskim, and its not their fault, the men are protesting. Its the gov’t, who has deliberately placed their building in the midst of the WRONG NEIGHBORHOOD on purpose to cause an upheaval.

    Its always the children who suffer.

    Its like the tactics that hamas uses, in Gaza. THey deliberately use hide outs near the dwellings of the people to hide beind. And the innocent suffer the consequences. The chassidim have to stand up in Beit Shemesh to protest the gov’t decisions.

    and I dont mean with spit. But they have to say something.

  • #840009

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    the 8 year old girl was not dressed appropriately?

    No, they are just kookoo. You don’t spit at 8 year olds, even if they’re dressed like the pope.

  • #840010

    lol popa you’re right

  • #840011

    emunah613
    Member

    The story is ongoing and very sad. I live here and can tell you that it is a small group of hooligans that attack little girls and sometimes women by spitting on them, hurling things at them and protesting their presence with name calling. The real issue is that Orot Banot, a school was allocated there years ago for the Nofei Aviv community/ Nofei Hashemesh and Sheinfeld residents. Nearby, apartments for various Chasidic groups were erected. Instead of living together harmoniously, these extremeists residents felt it was wrong for these Jews to have a building in “their” area. Truthfully the school is ideally located for the the three neighborhoods it is meant to serve. For a person from outside of Israel who is used to living near non Jews this issue is difficult to comprehend. In the eyes of these extremists, these Jews are not true yorei shomayim or shomrei Torah and mitzvos. Their methods are horrendous and illegal and they are beginning to be prosecuted. They have inflicted long lasting chillul Hashem and pain. Spitting on an eight year old girl dressed in a long sleeved t shirt and long skirt is criminal. They do it to intimidate these families and discourage them from settling in BS. They mostly hate the Anglos who are making aliya (see the video from Haaretz)) since this is who mainly live in the area. Their intimidation is not working, these anglos gave up too much to come to Israel and settle here, and they are not just going to get up and leave. Many chareidim are horrified by this behavior and have distanced themselves from these extremists.

    My question is-where do they get their support? Their apartments cost money, they don’t work, and they have large families to feed. Trace the funds and I am sure we will be shocked by who is behind this. Cut off the source of the funding, and see what happens……

  • #840012

    skiaddict
    Member

    What do you mean who do you think is backing them?

  • #840013

    emunah613
    Member

    There are “anti Israel” religious groups in chul who give money to support the cause of incitement against the State. I wish that there would be a way for people to know who these groups are and what they do before they donate money. I saw a few brochures claiming to have the endorsements of very frum rabbanim, and who emphasize that they work to purify Klal Yisrael, etc……

  • #840014

    emunah613
    Member

    I would love for a major newspaper like Hamodia or Mishpacha to do some investigative reporting on this! They never will because these fanatics are capable of great damage in retaliation for exposure of their money trail. One day one publication will have the courage……….

  • #840015

    sam4321
    Member

    Gemara Chagiga 5 and Bava kama 91 talks about spitting on someone,not the smartest thing to do.

  • #840016

    lemaysa
    Member

    emunah613 last time i was in beit shemesh and rbs i found alot bigger then just a few extermist’s saddely its a growing cumminty of sick induviduals

  • #840017

    OneOfMany
    Member

    I have an irreligious Jewish professor who is having a heyday with this. It’s very sad.

  • #840018

    emunah613
    Member

    I live in RBS and do not feel threatened by these thugs. I also do not think that their numbers are on the rise. I think that this is a wonderful and beautiful place to live and I amazed at how kind and considerate most people are. With any growing community anywhere there will always be the fringe elements that demand attention. That this fringe element is disguised in a charedi costume is misleading. Most chareidim here are examples of middos and refinement. Do not let this group influence all the constant good that happens daily here.

  • #840019

    lemaysa
    Member

    rbs is a beatiful place what i was saying is that fringe element is pretty big…

  • #840020

    zalman
    Member

    why not arm the women with mace?

  • #840021

    emunah613
    Member

    I estimate an insignificant number, with very few joining them. They do not make a day to day difference in my life, and I do not feel that they are suddenly everywhere.

  • #840022

    cantgetit
    Member

    What if those guys get mace also?

  • #840023

    I am so sorry to hear this emunah, I truly did not know these facts!

    Is it known what chassidic sect they are? Or would it be loshen hara to relate it?

  • #840024

    tahini
    Member

    The tragedy is these crazy minority group of extremists are splitting the Jewish people even further and using abusive behaviour which is beyond the pale. Israel now faces a backlash against the charedi worse than ever before, from rioting over segregated buses to terrorising little girls going to school.

    For countless times children at Orot Banot have walked past so called ” charedi” extremists shouting abuse at them in a fierce menancing manner. They are not charedi, not chassidische, nor are those that riot, use violence or injure jewish emergency workers, they are rubbish, beautiful words like ” charedi” and ” chassidim” shouldn’t be used for them, they are a hilul hashem, it is agonising to watch them in action, unfortunately I have.

  • #840026

    tahini
    Member

    Emunah thank you for representing so eloquently what is really happening.

    always runs with scissors fast If you did not know the facts as you so readily acknowledge why be so quick to state

    “The evil zionim created this beit shemesh thing- way out of control.”

    “like the tactics that hamas uses, in Gaza. THey deliberately use hide outs near the dwellings of the people to hide beind. And the innocent suffer the consequences.”

    To compare the Israeli govt you may not like to murderous hamas is really upsetting, Jews, secular or not, do not send their children on suicide missions and murder those they disagree with. Those extremists living in Beit Shemesh receive government aid and enjoy full use of Israeli infracture, just visit any hospital in the area. We may all have different opinions, but please do not compare the erection of a girls school to the hiding of bombs and military hardware amongst civilians, Beit shemesh is a lovely place to live and those extremists want the advantages of living there without allowing others to exist, the others being orthodox jews with different minhagim to themselves. Tragic

  • #840027

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    always runs with scissors fast…

    You clearly do NOT know the situation. This is NOT “their” neighborhood. It is in an area on the ‘border’ between ‘their’ area and ‘Torani l’eumi’ neighborhood, AND this building was ALWAYS planned as a school for these girls and NOT theirs AND these girls are dressed as totally tzniyusdik as the girls in ANY Brooklyn yeshiva. These guys are thugs and punks and if they keep it up it’s just a matter of time until some parent loses their temper and re-arranges the face of one of these guys.

    What would YOU do if YOUR little daughter got spit on or had a rock thrown at her?!?! They ARE a fairly small group that are making a bad name for ALL chareidim.

  • #840028

    adams
    Participant

    Emunah 613,but this is a major escalation of long time Haredi violence against people not frum, Now its’ against people not who don’t dress exactly like them. Frum they are not.

    and this violence has been ongoing there for over 10 years i have been there as well.

    I am waiting to hear condemnation from major Hareidi and Chassidish leaders and poskim. Head of the Edah Chareidis, or Rav Shternbuch who called for demonstrations last year when that parking lot was opened on Shabbos.

    Don’t you think these leaders set the tone for violence that leads to this, can you honestly think of something more despicable and painful?

    I lived in Beis Yisroel neighborhood in the 1980’s and there was constant shouting at women then, “Kurva” “Pritza”

    who supports who teaches people to do this?

  • #840029

    Ain Od Milvado YOU are RIGHT! what can I say? 100%

  • #840030

    tahini i said what i did because that was MY understanding. now i have heard another point of view, which doesn’t necessarily mean its true but i can do my research

  • #840031

    For_real
    Member

    “I am waiting to hear condemnation from major Hareidi and Chassidish leaders and poskim.”

    adams: So true! I am not a hater, I’m really not, but this is ridiculous! These people operate under the PRETENSE of “L’sheim Shomayim” and “believe” that this kind of behavior is sanctioned according to the Torah. Where are their community leaders and Rabbonim to put an end to this? Call them out publicly. Isolate them. Publicly state that this is NOT what the G-d wants!

    Of course that will not happen…. And this is why I’ve become so cynical…

  • #840032

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    It might be a small group who are actually committing the crimes but what about the majority that does nothing? They have the tacit support of the charedi (political term only) majority in the area and possibly in chu”l as well. I won’t believe the excuses until all the graffiti is off the walls, all the harassment stops and all of the perpetrators voluntarily turned over to the police by their neighbors.

  • #840033

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    The majority of the chareidim are good, decent yirai shamayim, but they are afraid to speak out against these bums for fear of physical retribution.

  • #840034

    chavalman
    Member

    itche:

    it might be a minority that aren’t dressing tzniyus, but what about the majority that does nothing? They have the tacit support of the MO in the area. where are the MO pulpit rabbis klapping onthe bimma and demanding longer skirts? it being aminority is no excuse as you yourself said.

    and how exactly can neighbors “turn over”anyone to the police, when the police themselves cant get anyone? based on hearsay? and what will the crime be exactly? yelling prutza in protest isn’t a crime. (the spitter is a different story.)

  • #840035

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    chavalman:

    1- We are talking about a religious school with a dress code that enforces tznius.

    2- We (we meaning Jews bichlal) do not threaten peoples’ lives if they do klap on the bima demanding longer skirts.

    3- Right now we are talking about grown men physically attacking little girls. We can address your ankle fetish another time.

  • #840036

    lemaysa
    Member

    even though its a minority its the responsibilty of the general public not to sit and idly let such a atrocity happen…and its nobody’s business to attack physicly or verbaly little kids people that preputrate such crimes should be arrested just like any other criminal for anti semitic attack

  • #840037

    Y.W. Editor
    Keymaster
  • #840038

    lemaysa
    Member

    than you… btw why do they use by pictures of riots non actual pictures that portay them as crazy events?

  • #840039

    Health
    Participant

    adams – I disagree with “Frum” people spitting on others and it’s despicable. But, it takes Two to Tango. These modern Jews aren’t “Frum”. So even if you have the right to build a school wherever you want -do you think it’s Menchlich to build it next to a Frum neighborhood? This is called starting up.

    The reason I’m calling them Not Frum is the same reason I’m calling the spitter -Not Frum. I’m actually suprised at all the comments here esp. when this story first broke. I actually believed them. The chariedim are screaming and rioting for no good reason, e/o said. But the truth is -we just have a lot of Anti-Charedim posting here.

    Now even though the kids more or less are Tzinus -the women who bring them to school aren’t. All that I read over here was -of course the women dress Tzinus and I believed it. Well when this story broke all over the media -they have a picture of the girl and Mom. The mother is wearing some sort of beret but tons of long hair is hanging out. It looks too natural (all over the place) to be a wig. So if you stick your hand or foot out -it will be chopped off. (It’s possible the back is some sort of “fall”, but the front is a lot of her own hair showing out.)

  • #840040

    lemaysa
    Member

    health. the school is next to their neighborhood the kid walks 300 meters(aprox 1000ft)..visit beit shemesh and youll find the daa’ti community is not trying to start with anybody …just because they have diffrent veiws on hilchos tznius doesnt meananybody who doesnt hold like you is a shaygitz..none is anti charedei b”h i pride myself for being yeshivish its the chillul hashem that groups in beit shemesh and yerushalyim preputrate wich is tarnishing the frum charedi community wich is bothering me ..were are the rabbonim when we need them most

  • #840041

    sm29
    Member

    It’s just as wrong to do something negative to someone who they think is doing something wrong. It’s one thing if someone thinks someone is doing something wrong and they SPEAK to them, but it’s another thing to actually do a sin ourself in reaction. For example, I remember when someone I know got upset about people we know, and I was worried that their anger might hurt our parnassah and so i got angry at him. Looking back, I realize that was not the right thing because that probrably would only make things worse, like double jeopardy. The best thing would have been that i just pray to Hashem and trust that He continues to provide.

    We shouldn’t sin inorder to fix a sin, there are better ways to do things

  • #840042

    Health
    Participant

    lemaysa – It’s easy for you to write it off as “just because they have diffrent veiws on hilchos tznius doesnt meananybody who doesnt hold like you is a shaygitz”. I don’t know the Dinim and I’m not a Poisek, but I can understand why these people would have a problem seeing these women everyday – their hair is showing.

    So my point is -it’s a two way street. If you want to dress the way you want and I’m pretty sure that hair uncovered is Ossur, even if some is covered; then put your school somewhere else. You can’t have your cake and eat it. Everyday you’re sticking a needle in their eye. When you start up with s/o -eventually they will react. Are all people reacting like humans or not? It depends on the person -if the person always acts like a human, then they will react like a human. If the person acts a lot like an animal, then they will react like an animal. Hence the spitting. But just because the Charedim have animals amongst them -this in no way justifies the Modern Jews behavior. The Moderne always think they are more refined than the Charedi. Is it refined behavior to have your school next to their houses where they will inevitably see Not-Tzinus women, acc. to their Rabbonim?!?

  • #840043

    realist4u
    Member

    I didnt read all the posts but, Health, reffering to what you said about the lady with uncovered hair,thats not the issue at hand. The story was clearly about the little girl she got hurt for no reason there is no way to justify their actions period, ask a rav who is a poseik. Secondly the real question is do these “Chassidim” who are “so” machmir on kol haTorah Kulah not realize that Chillul Hashem is far greater than the insignificant, and yes the things they are bothered by are meaningless, halachos of tznius, they need someone to remind them of this. Lastly it is important to realize not all Charreidim are like this just the few silly individuals.

  • #840044

    Health
    Participant

    realist4u -“I didnt read all the posts but, Health, reffering to what you said about the lady with uncovered hair,thats not the issue at hand.”

    It most certainly is -this is the kid’s mother. And she takes her kid to school.

    “The story was clearly about the little girl she got hurt for no reason there is no way to justify their actions period, ask a rav who is a poseik.”

    No one was justifying the spitting and I made that pretty clear in my post. What I did say was the spitting doesn’t justify the Modern Jew’s behavior of flaunting the Not-Tzinus dress in front of their eyes!

    “Secondly the real question is do these “Chassidim” who are “so” machmir on kol haTorah Kulah not realize that Chillul Hashem is far greater than the insignificant, and yes the things they are bothered by are meaningless, halachos of tznius, they need someone to remind them of this.”

    This is where you prove you are a Kofir. Tzinus, such as covering your hair is meaningless by you. And while spitting at a little kid is a Chillul Hashem -screaming at her mother to dress Tzinus is a Mitzvah.

    “Lastly it is important to realize not all Charreidim are like this just the few silly individuals.”

    Are you saying it’s a few silly individuals whom spit or are you saying it’s a few silly individuals who care about Tzinus?

    If it’s the latter, I would say if you want to consider yourself a Charedi then e/o cares about Tzinus, not just a silly few!

    It’s the silly many in Israel and elsewhere who don’t care about Tzinus!

  • #840045

    realist4u
    Member

    Health, for one there is no need to get all up tight this is just a formal debate. The story said that the girl was WALKING to school, which is located 300 meters away, she was by herself,and if not then I didnt hear the story right, i take back the statement about how “meaningless” it is, but not for one second would I dare to say that its at all worse, or at any level equal to the tremendous chillul hashem, no doubts there, thats what i was reffering to by ask a poseik. Are you a “buki” in hilchos mussar do you know when to give and when not to give, my assumtion, based on what you wrote by “screaming at her mother”, anyone who knows hows to give mussar EFFECTIVLY knows its not done through screaming. Lastly i am almost certain it was quite clear when i stated that its just a silly few, that the word silly is the huge double standard by these “charreidim” who spit yes and create a huge chillul hashem, stop from a moment and realize what every single person who hears this story thinks about Jews, one thing is for sure nothing positive. And no one said that the modern “justify” their actions because of how they are treated, what came first their actions or the spitting so I would venture to say its the chareidim justifying their actions by the dress of the “modern” if you will.

  • #840046

    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    Toit Meshiga!

    Nazis YS”V spit at Jews.

    I’d like to meet this individual that acts worse than an animal, in a dark alley and leave him with a positive impression of my knuckles as a keepsake.

    The huge Chilul Hshm he caused with his false kana’us which equals pure evil and achzarius is chilling.

    Any of those insane people who act in this way or similarly are so far from Judaism, if they only knew.

    My dear fellow Yidden, Don’t let their garbs fool you!

    Yiddishkeit is not the sum of what you wear, but mostly how you behave.

  • #840047

    tahini
    Member

    The ywn links posted on this thread by the editor are most helpful for those not in Beit shemesh or surrounding areas to get a flavour of what is going on.

    The area of Beit Shemesh has always had a mixed population in terms of observance, the so called “charedi” that have moved in have no right to move into an area and insult its inhabitants and disrupt local life.

    One of my children works in a hospital close by, it seem ironical that he is a frum doctor treating people whom he may see later on screaming abuse at children as they walk to school, children clad in long sleeved, high necked tops and long loose skirts.

    No one should be screamed at, no one should be insulted, egged, spat upon or threatened, irrespective of their dress. As a grandmother and mother it is so deeply distressing to think of jews behaving like this to other jews.

    Where is the modesty in insulting and rubbishing women and little girls, hear the language yelled at this people and it is obscene, not jewish, certainly not charedi and plain wrong.

    check out the ywn links for your own information, some of the other links on you tube and national press are too distressing to watch. I pray that soon some of our great rabbis will speak out as this cannot continue, religious indignation is being used to score political points and destroy a country, enough jewish blood has been split over the years, we do not need to torment our own.

  • #840048

    old man
    Member

    I am very familiar with the area that is being discussed and the people involved on both sides.

    It is quite clear that many posters have never been to this particular area, and certainly do not live there. To these people I say the following:

    I dare say that those here who are offering judgments on where this school has a right to exist or who is frum and who is not are putting their own ignorance and their own stupidity in direct competition with each other. A far as I am concerned, those comments cast a large shadow on the posters’ capacity for normative reasoning.

  • #840049

    adams
    Participant

    Heath, the chassidim there are entitled to beleive that the tznius is not ‘good enough’ and maybe that they can try to educate this woman in the laws of Tznius but they are not entitled to rein violence as they have been doing. they can get away with it because the Israeli government is feckless and does not enforce the laws that these chassidim have broken. the spitters are not afraid of any long term jail sentence that will not occur. In CHu’l they would be arrested and locked up for many years so they don’t do these things, and possibly the chassidim have different sort of leaders in Brooklyn that does not encourage such vile acts.

    It is not as if these chassidic communities are not without internal problems of their own, they do not need to pick on and bully others who are different thant they are.

    Have you ever heard of living together peacefull,? Shevet Achim Gam Yachad?

    Do these Chassidim who spit and yell, do they honestly think that Hashem is happy with them?

    Why this focus on Tznius on other people, is this a coverup of all the aveiros that occur in the Chassidic commnuties?

    Old man, Israel is a democratic society you want to build a school, you can, you follow building codes and laws.

    If they don’t like it there they should move to Brooklyn, let’s see them spit on people in Brooklyn and get away with that crime. they are lucky the Israeli government is too prissy and lets them get away with these crimes.

  • #840050

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I would like to hear one GOOD REASON why its ok K-Halacha to spit and throw things at an 8 year old girl EVEN if they are dressed in a Bikini (Which they are CLEARLY not here)

  • #840051

    Health
    Participant

    realist4u -“The story said that the girl was WALKING to school, which is located 300 meters away, she was by herself,and if not then I didnt hear the story right,”

    No where in the story does it say she was walking alone and you came to this conclusion because of your inner hatred towards them. Go watch the video from the TV station that started this story. They demonsrate the walk everyday from her house and her mother takes her.

    “Are you a “buki” in hilchos mussar do you know when to give and when not to give, my assumtion, based on what you wrote by “screaming at her mother”, anyone who knows hows to give mussar EFFECTIVLY knows its not done through screaming.”

    I’m not going re-educate you, but e/o knows they aren’t trying to Mekarev anyone or give Mussar. If you don’t know why they do it -maybe start a topic about it here in the CR.

    “And no one said that the modern “justify” their actions because of how they are treated, what came first their actions or the spitting so I would venture to say its the chareidim justifying their actions by the dress of the “modern” if you will.”

    Wrong, you just proved how you are full of Sinas Chinum you are by saying “chareidim justifying their actions by the dress of the “modern” if you will”, by saying Chareidim you imply ALL Chareidim, yet most have condemned the spitting or at the very least they don’t condone it. It you would have said a very few, then you would have a point, but you can’t admit the truth, can you?

  • #840052

    Health
    Participant

    adams -“Do these Chassidim who spit and yell, do they honestly think that Hashem is happy with them?”

    Well Hashem is happy with the screaming -I don’t agree with the spitting.

    “Why this focus on Tznius on other people, is this a coverup of all the aveiros that occur in the Chassidic commnuties?”

    Because these people flaunt it in their face. But your surmise is based on your hatred towards them.

    “If they don’t like it there they should move to Brooklyn,”

    This is the most hypocritical statement I’ve ever heard. Why don’t you look up the statistics of whom is trying to emigrate to America and whom is trying to make Aliya? By and far it’s the Freye whom want to get out and live here and it’s the Frumme who want to make Aliya. The only reason they still have millions of Non-religious in Israel is because the gov. makes all these laws that they can’t leave!

    The Charedim want to live in E. Yisroel for Kedusha. They tolerate the Modern & Freye upto a point. And that point is having the Modern school next to their houses where they have to see Untzinus adults everyday.

    If anything these Modern Jews who made Aliya should move back to wherever they came from!

  • #840053

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am not expert, But I know this one can NEVER give Mussur out of hate.

    You are supposed to give it out of love

  • #840054

    MiddlePath
    Member

    It really saddens me that different types of Jews cannot get along. There is a difference between acceptance and tolerance. One doesn’t have to accept the ways of another group of Jews, but one should be able to tolerate it without getting violent.

    You NEVER EVER should scream or spit at another Jew that you don’t know, no matter how they are dressed. There is no justification at all to do that. You may not have to accept the Jews that don’t dress according to your standards (although you really should), but you MUST be able to tolerate it and live peacefully with each other. Otherwise, we are in for a very long exile.

    Screaming at others is simply a lack of good middos. And if you keep all of “halachah”, and know Shas by heart, but lack good middos, it is worth NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING.

  • #840055

    adams
    Participant

    how is this flaunt in your face?

    Here you have shomer shabbos people who are dressed Tznius. What power gives these Chassidim the right to denounce them and spit on them? As if there is not crimes of all types by the Chasssidim, or are you thinking they are all pure and holy ? what Kedusha, the chassidim in Beis Shemesh have now defiled whatever Kedusha might have been there. Please stop posting assumptions about posters.

    Please stop Heath stating lies about what I and others think. You look very stupid when you argue that way. I probably shouldn’t even point that out, the more yo do that, the more ridiculous you look. But I don’t want to because that is not my way.

    Not true at all about those leaving Israel. ALthough that was not my contention, you will find people leaving from all sectors of society. if anything more frei return after a few years abroad, going to University, or starting a small business. There are no laws that prevent Israelis from leaving, you are telling lies again or you are not informed. GO to any large city in any country in the world, you will see Israelis living there, many of them do return to Israel. I happen to know many Chariedishe Israelis who are in America for Tzmitus.

    It’s high time for these extremist elements to stop, as well as the general feeling in the Chareishi and Chassidesh world that the are ‘better’ than people who don’t dress like they do.

    The attitude is here in the states also.

  • #840056

    Health
    Participant

    zahavasdad -“I am not expert, But I know this one can NEVER give Mussur out of hate.

    You are supposed to give it out of love”

    They have no intention of giving Mussar!

  • #840057

    tahini
    Member

    Middlepath, thank you for your post!

  • #840058

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    They have no intention of giving Mussar!

    Arent you defending those who are spitting , cursing and throwing things at the girls who are dressed “untzniut”

  • #840059

    mamashtakah
    Member

    And that point is having the Modern school next to their houses where they have to see Untzinus adults everyday.

    Then they should move to Bnei Brak, or Kiryat Sefer, or Mea Shearim. If it bothers them that much, let them build a wall around their neighborhood so they can’t see out. Or, let them put veils around their hats.

    If anything these Modern Jews who made Aliya should move back to wherever they came from!

    Why should they? Living in E”Y is a mitzva dioraita. Maybe the chareidim who have the problem with the school should move back to their shtetles in Poland or Romania or where ever they came from.

  • #840060

    Health
    Participant

    adams -“how is this flaunt in your face?”

    They parade in Not-Tzinus dress next to where they live. This is called starting up, no matter how you twist it.

    “Here you have shomer shabbos people who are dressed Tznius.”

    A simple lie. They aren’t dressed Tzinus!!!

    “As if there is not crimes of all types by the Chasssidim, or are you thinking they are all pure and holy ?”

    Not all, but this line shines of your extreme Sinas Chinum!

    “what Kedusha, the chassidim in Beis Shemesh have now defiled whatever Kedusha might have been there.”

    The actions of a few spitting means that no Charedi lives in Kedusha anymore. Ok- whatever you say! As long as you call this logic!

    “There are no laws that prevent Israelis from leaving, you are telling lies again or you are not informed. GO to any large city in any country in the world, you will see Israelis living there, many of them do return to Israel.”

    This is an absolute falsehood. They give them such a hard time just to visit America, let alone permanetly leave. Go visit an Israeli Interior office and see for yourself.

    “I happen to know many Chariedishe Israelis who are in America for Tzmitus.”

    This is usually just Satmar types.

    “as well as the general feeling in the Chareishi and Chassidesh world that the are ‘better’ than people who don’t dress like they do.”

    It has nothing to do with better. They don’t like to see people Not listening to the Torah. If you want to do what you want – at least do it in a place which isn’t right next to them. How about Chaifa, Tel Aviv, NYC and the list goes on…?

  • #840061

    Doswin
    Member

    So I just watched the video from Israeli TV and I don’t see any problem with the kid. There’s no excuse for the spitting, period. (Was the spitting on video, cause I didn’t see it, or did the mother or someone just claim someone spit her?) Anyways, I agree with Health that the mother of this girl, when she was walking her to the school next to the ultra-Orthodox neighborhood, was NOT dressed tzniyus. Her skirt was short. If someone is very frum I can understand their objections to her (the mother) walking by their neighborhood like that. Again, no excuse for spitting. But the daily protests against the school is more understandable. (BTW, the A.P. is quoting this mother today as saying any woman should have a right to walk sleeveless in the ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods, to give some perspective on who you are dealing with.)

    The guy who spit is a meshugene. Its not like its happening often. There is one reported such incidence. The media is using one guy spitting as a mass hysteria event to attack all frum Jews. If some chiloni guy in Tel Aviv spit on a child it would be a non event. I’m sure it has happened more than once there. You would never hear about it in the media. At most the guy would get a summons with a 200 shekel fine. You wouldn’t have chilonim calling for the murder of 10 random people, as some chiloni was quoted in the Israeli media today advocating 10 random Chareidim be murdered to teach them a lesson not to spit.

  • #840062

    Sam2
    Member

    Health: If they have no intention of giving Mussar/Tochachah then how is the yelling Muttar? It should be Halbanas Pnei Chaveiro B’rabim.

  • #840063

    soliek
    Member

    so on the subject of using violence against them…i have no problem with that. if one of them gets out of line violent i see no problem with a cop beating the living daylights out of him.

  • #840064

    Health
    Participant

    MP -“Screaming at others is simply a lack of good middos.”

    It depends on the situation. If you are screaming at them L’shem Shomayim, then there is nothing wrong. And they do tolerate the Moderne/Freye behavior as long as they don’t come in or near their neighborhood dressed however they feel like!

    Can you imagine if I decided to burn a cross outside a church -do you think the Goyim would just spit and curse at me or do much worse? Most people here would condenm the cross burning and defend the Goyim, even if the guy was killed or beaten up.

    These Jews act with much restraint, even though the Moderne start up with them everyday in their neighborhood.

    There is a saying – when in Rome do as the Romans do!

    Move your school -if you must bring your kids dressed in the manner that you do!

  • #840065

    old man
    Member

    I didn’t make myself clear before, so I will now.

    If you have been in Bet Shemesh, you know that the school is legitimate and legal and the students and their parental escorts pose no moral, spiritual or physical threat to anyone. If you have never been in Bet Shemesh and are not familiar with what and where this school is, then with all due respect, put a lid on it, you are clueless. You sound worse than stupid and you are making a fool of yourself.

  • #840066

    Queen Bee
    Member

    “If you are screaming at them L’shem Shomayim, then there is nothing wrong.”

    Maybe you’re right that there is nothing “wrong”, but I think speaking in a soft, respectful way is better than screaming. And has a greater effect.

    And I completely agree with MP’s post. Middos rise above all.

  • #840067

    Doswin
    Member

    old man: clearly not all Bet Shemesh residents agree with your claim.

  • #840068

    Sam2
    Member

    Health: I just watched a video with the girl in question. Her mother’s hair is covered.

  • #840069

    mamashtakah
    Member

    These Jews act with much restraint . . .

    I guess we have a different view of things then. My parents taught me that throwing bricks and dirty diapers, screaming at people, and spitting on others, was not a nice thing to do. These things are certainly not what most normal people would call acting with restraint.

    . . . even though the Moderne start up with them everyday in their neighborhood.

    The school is not in “their” neighborhood.

  • #840070

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I would like you to name ONE POSEK who says its ok to yell and spit at an 8 year old girl in Bet Shemesh.

    Where does it say in M”B , A”M or S”A that its ok to do so?

  • #840071

    MiddlePath
    Member

    Thanks for agreeing with me, tahini and QB!

    About screaming at people, the only situation I can think of that it may be okay is when the person in question is someone you know well enough and respects you enough to take your “screaming” the right way, and understands you are doing it because you care about them. Other than that, one should never scream at another person. And DEFINITELY not at someone you don’t know. The vast majority of people wouldn’t respond well to being screamed at by a complete stranger. It just doesn’t work.

  • #840072

    old man
    Member

    Doswin: And clearly, you have never been in that particular area. So I include you in my comment.

  • #840073

    adams
    Participant

    So then, it would be ok for secular or non hassidic Israelis to curse and spit, at Hassidim who happen to walk in ‘their’ the non Hassidim neighborhoods? Who are offended at their dress? No one has any right to do that sorry. its a 2 way street. respect for all. If you see something that you don’t like, look away.

    ANd you see where this cursing and yelling, leads to? Even you are against the spitting, but once you set the stage to violence this happens. I hope it doesn’t get worse.

  • #840074

    apushatayid
    Participant

    If, as is claimed, this girl was walking with her mother who was not dressed appropriately which provoked the response, why didn’t this fellow spit at the mother? Why the girl?

  • #840075

    Doswin
    Member

    Because the guy who spit is a meshugene. And the only one accused of spitting. One unaffiliated loner did something and the media is using one man’s stupidity to defame all frum Jews.

  • #840076

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Fine the one guy is a meshugene, But why did the community errupt when they tried to arrest him.

    I dont blame the community for the meshugene, I blame them for harboring and protecting him.

  • #840077

    on the ball
    Member

    Those men who spit and scream at women/girls are hypocrites of the worst sort. They protest on the pretext of standing up for the honour of the Torah but give no regard whatsoever to Issurim D’Oraysoh (Biblical Prohibitions) that they are likely transgressing.

    1) Bal Tashchis – throwing eggs that are fit for human consumption is a blatant transgression of this Issur of wasting things.

    2) Embarrassing a fellow Jew. The Torah states clearly that when you rebuke a fellow Jew you should do so in a way that does not involve transgression i.e. by embarrassing them. Chazal say that one who embarrasses another in public forfeits his right to Olom Haba (The World to Come)

    3) Chilul Hashem – The actions of these men has caused people around the world and more devastatingly, non-frum Jews, to abhor the Charedi communities and lifestyle that these men purport to represent. Again, Chazal say that one who causes a Chilul Hashem forfeits his right to Olom Haba (The World to Come).

    4) Bitul Torah – these people are wasting valuable time that they could be spending learning Torah.

    5) Gezel – If they damage anybody’s clothes or possessions by throwing eggs or faeces at them they transgress the Issur of Gezel (stealing). Additionally, if they are enrolled in a Kolel and are being paid to learn and are taking time off to carry out these protests, then they are stealing.

    Have any of these men given thought to any of these severe Issurim? Have any asked the Shayla to any Rav if their concerns over Tznius override these Issurim?

    I suspect not as I do not believe any Rav would sanction their actions.

    This is proof that these ‘Charedim’ are nothing but fakers who do not care about Hashem or His Holy Torah. It would not surprise me in the least if these same people who attack and harass little girls ostensibly out of huge concern for Tznius, have a secret Tznius-related problem (V’hamayven Yovin) for which they are over-compensating.

  • #840078

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Just saw an AP video of this story on Huffington Post. Ignoring the one narrating the video just watching the scenes taped, begs the question, why so many obviously litvishe bachurim are hanging around on the sidewalk around the area of the Toldos Avram Yitzchak Beis Medrash (thats the BM that is shown in the video)? They appear to be egging on the few people who are obviously part of the group the story is about and who the cameraman is trying to tape. Having second, third and fourth doubts about allowing my own sons to go to E”Y.

  • #840079

    emunah613
    Member

    BS is not a moshav. Every store, medical clinic, and street has ALL types of Jews-dressed accordingly. From secular to chassidic. There are actually quite a few Phillipinos (women caretakers dressed in jeans) walking around that same area. When these people bought their apartments they KNEW where they were living. They saw that there are THREE modern Orthodox communities that preexisted their buildings. They bought anyway. All of this is a territorial struggle for the goal of acquiring the municipal school building through intimidation. This type of strong arm tactic has previously worked in Meah Shearim and Bnei Brak and they are now hoping to use the same old methods in BS. Only this time they are dealing with olim from democratic countries who will fight to their last breath to not give up their homes they sacrificed so much for! If they really cared for tznius, they could try to be mekarev the women through their own wives and rebbetzins. If they really cared so much about tznius they could move into Nachal Umenucha/Kiryat HaCharedit-a completely insular community with the strictest tznius standards. It’s a land grab. Nothing to do with any Torah ideals. As their level of frustration grows, the methods get scarier. The demonstration is a stop gap measure to let them realize that everyone is on to them, including the Charedi MK’s who spoke out. Now the ball is in their court. Hopefully they will quietly skulk back under the rock they crawled out from.

  • #840080

    Y.W. Editor
    Keymaster

    @apushatayid if you want a reason not to send your children to Israel here is some more reasons:

    Out Of The Mailbag: American Bochrim Wrecking Havoc At Hafganos

    Keep your kids home.

    Period.

  • #840081

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rabbi Horowitz of Project yes has posted on his Blog that everyone should write to the newspapers condeming the protests in Bet Shemesh and its a Chilul Hashem

  • #840082

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Mod’s Please combine this with my above post

    The Belzer Rebbe has also condemed the protests

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=113006

  • #840083

    tahini
    Member

    Thank you Y.W. Editor for your link highlighting the behaviour of wayward bochurim in Jerusalem.

    As a parent of a yeshiva student I feel strongly this is not about yeshivas taking in students without proper care and responsible guidance, this is also about young men with too many hours in the day and night to mess about with and get into trouble.

    If you are able to afford to send your children away from home to study Torah consider what is truly proper Torah study, is there time for chesed, helping the poor and disabled in Jerusalem, if not, why not? Is there time to teach English, sport or music to poor and disadvantaged children, if not, why not? If there is proper use of time for Torah study with all hours used appropriately for study and play then why is there time to riot and misbehave.

    There is a terrible risk of young boys getting radicalised beyond their parents understanding, learning not to feel part of klal yisrael, but part of an imaginary superior sect far removed from Torah true values, able to act as they please with mentors and teachers failing to do their duty.

  • #840084

    apushatayid
    Participant

    @42. Thanks for the tip 🙂

  • #840085

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I think the mother of this 8 year old girl should invite the spitter and his family for a shabbos seudah.

  • #840086

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I think the mother of this 8 year old girl should invite the spitter and his family for a shabbos seudah.

  • #840087

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I think the mother of this 8 year old girl should invite the spitter and his family for a shabbos seudah.

  • #840089

    Doswin
    Member

    He wouldn’t come if he feels shes dressed non tznius.

  • #840090

    Health
    Participant

    mamashtakah -“Then they should move to Bnei Brak, or Kiryat Sefer, or Mea Shearim. If it bothers them that much, let them build a wall around their neighborhood so they can’t see out. Or, let them put veils around their hats.”

    Instead of blaming the Moderne for the situation -you blame the Chareidim. And what is your solution -they should move out or build a wall. This will cause considerable expense and inconvience, but who cares because the Freye & Moderne are right.

    Might makes Right.

    How about this solution? The fathers bring the girls to school or the mothers dress Tzinus for the few minutes every day of bringing and picking up the kids?

    “Why should they? Living in E”Y is a mitzva dioraita. Maybe the chareidim who have the problem with the school should move back to their shtetles in Poland or Romania or where ever they came from.”

    Well the MO “Frum” Jews can move to the West Bank with all the other MO’s that live there. Then they can dress the way they want and can help their buddies attack & burn Mosques. And when they aren’t busy doing that – they can infiltrate army bases and attack the soldiers there. And you MO’s call the Charedim violent because of s/o who spat?!?

    “I guess we have a different view of things then. My parents taught me that throwing bricks and dirty diapers, screaming at people, and spitting on others, was not a nice thing to do. These things are certainly not what most normal people would call acting with restraint.”

    Oh, and most of the Charedim do this, not just a very few!

    “The school is not in “their” neighborhood.”

    They are right next door.

  • #840091

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Health: If they have no intention of giving Mussar/Tochachah then how is the yelling Muttar? It should be Halbanas Pnei Chaveiro B’rabim.”

    They don’t have a Din of “Chaveiro”.

    Sam & MiddlePath –

    And if you want to know the reason why -I posted above that s/o should start a topic about it. People will post why they scream. If they don’t I will explain it!

  • #840092

    Health
    Participant

    Doswin -“old man: clearly not all Bet Shemesh residents agree with your claim.”

    +10

  • #840093

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Health: I just watched a video with the girl in question. Her mother’s hair is covered.”

    The picture that I was referring to was taken on her couch during some interview, not the video. Tons of hair is sticking out from her hat. Perhaps the back is a “fall”, but I clearly saw more than a Tefech of front hair!

  • #840094

    Health
    Participant

    adams -“No one has any right to do that sorry. its a 2 way street. respect for all. If you see something that you don’t like, look away.”

    They do look away, but this in their face. Right next door to their housing.

    “So then, it would be ok for secular or non hassidic Israelis to curse and spit, at Hassidim who happen to walk in ‘their’ the non Hassidim neighborhoods? Who are offended at their dress?”

    What kind of dream world are you leaving in? What you don’t think Freye start up with Frum Jews all the time? Just most Frum try to avoid them. Not only that they attack one another all the time. Did you ever hear of crime? So the whole Freye media decided Ya know there is no more murders, rapes, burglaries, drug pushing and every social problem that we have here in the US over there, so we have to report on the terrible crimes in the Frum neighborhoods.

    Hear ye. Hear Ye. – S/o spat on a girl. S/o made a woman sit in the back of the bus.

    This is classic Antisemitism and even the Leftist, Lib,

    Pres. Peres admitted the incitement from the media!

  • #840095

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The 8 year old girl?

  • #840096

    Parshaman
    Member

    I agree with apushatayid, if someone else is acting improperly then the best way to fix it is to show them how to act properly maybe even bring them some water and food while they are standing and protesting. show them that we care and if they wanna protest thats fine but it doesnt take away from our mitzvah of v’ahavta lreacha kamocha.

  • #840097

    Sam2
    Member

    Health: Please stop with your ridiculous assertions about Rei’acha, Amcha, etc. No one can claim that these people are Mumarin Lechol Hatorah Kula. Regardless of how they hold on certain issues, that’s just blatantly false.

  • #840098

    Health
    Participant

    Sam – Stop with your ridiculous understanding of Halacha. I just saw the S’A again recently.

    If you want to say they don’t know better -this is ridiculous.

    They know what they want to know. These MO know about Kashrus & Shabbos, etc. But they never heard about Tzinus? Yea, right!

    They just don’t care about it for whatever reason.

  • #840099

    Sam2
    Member

    Health: Yes, well that “whatever reason” can make a tremendous difference, can’t it? Or do you think that every “MO”, as you put it, is a Mumar Lehachis on the Issur Asei of Tznius? Oh, and before you call my understanding of Halacha ridiculous you might want to bring up a source to back up your assertion. Until you can prove that these women violate Tznius (I will admit that I am unsure about this, does being a Mumar to be Mevatel an Asei Lechachis even make you a Mumar L’chol Hatorah Kulah?) and that they do it Lehachis, you have no claim here.

    Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, because they keep Shabbos and Kashrus properly they also have a reason to consider what they are doing keeping Tznius properly?

  • #840100

    mdd
    Member

    Ye,ye. Today is the last day of Chanuka. We are celebraring the victory of the “violent extremist” Chashmonaim over the Greeks. And do you know what their zeides did in times of Yehoshua? They killed those Kenanim who refused to do teshuva or leave. Can you imagine? Totally not your version of Judaism.

    Now, I agree that it might be unwise to be violent giving the circumstances. I do not think one is allowed to spit at a somebody else’s minor, either. However, let us not twist the Torah, either.

  • #840101

    mdd
    Member

    Sam2, stop with your naive assumptions. Namely, that if someone keeps Shabbos and Kashrus properly, then, it must be they keep Tsnius too, or, at least, they think they do. Have you ever heard of a mumar le’davar echad? Someone might just not care enough or have yetser hora for a particular aviera.

  • #840102

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Is it tzniut to be standing outside a girls school looking at 8 year old girls?

  • #840103

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Health: Yes, well that “whatever reason” can make a tremendous difference, can’t it? Or do you think that every “MO”, as you put it, is a Mumar Lehachis on the Issur Asei of Tznius? Oh, and before you call my understanding of Halacha ridiculous you might want to bring up a source to back up your assertion.”

    Look I was saying that unless they are clueless (which makes them a Tinokes Sneshbu) then they might be Bchlal Amesecha. We went through this 100 times already. Even though I have a Diyuk from the Rambam that Tinuk Sneshbu isn’t part of Amesecha -I told MDD that I’m not sure. These people are Not T.S. -they know about Kashrus & Shabbos so they have no Din of T.S. So these people don’t have a Din Amesehca.

    “Until you can prove that these women violate Tznius (I will admit that I am unsure about this, does being a Mumar to be Mevatel an Asei Lechachis even make you a Mumar L’chol Hatorah Kulah?) and that they do it Lehachis, you have no claim here.”

    C’mon -what do you think I am – a two year old? Before I say a group isn’t Frum -I check it out. I found a video of this M.O. group online during one of their first demonstrations -by and far most women aren’t dressed Tzinyusdik, eg. No hair covering, T-shirts with short sleeves, etc. I’m not hear to teach you S’A but check out the S’A on Roay Bhama Daka and see the CC that says any Aveira time after time (And the Aveira doesn’t have to be L’hachas) takes you out of s/o you can’t speak L.H. on.

    (Eg. -They aren’t Bechlal Amesecha and Bein Odom L’chaveiro doesn’t apply to them.)

    “Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, because they keep Shabbos and Kashrus properly they also have a reason to consider what they are doing keeping Tznius properly?”

    So why don’t they keep Tzinus? Unless you think it’s Ok to dress the way they do -hair showing, arms & legs showing, etc.?

  • #840104

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Is it tzniut to be standing outside a girls school looking at 8 year old girls?”

    Looking at 8 year old girls opens another can of worms. Looking at their mothers is bad enough.

    It should be pointed out that the Chashmonaim killed those who brought “karbanos” to the greek gods, not women who may have dressed in a manner THEY do not deem proper but other legitimate poskim did. The men of Beis Shammai did not go around spitting at the women of Beis Hillel who wore things outside on shabbos that Beis Shammai felt was not a tachshit.

    Not all poskim state that stocking must be whatever denier thick with seems up the back, or hold that sheitels are not valid hair covering, or that the shok is the entire area from the bottom of the knee to the ankle and so on. What this really boils down to is they have their minhagim and poskim and heaven help anyone who lives their life according to any other poskim and minhagim.

  • #840105

    This is exactly why Israel needs separation between church (shul) & state. Perhaps next the Burka Babes (not my term) will enforce THEIR version of Tznius. And why not? It is not as if violence is punished in the third world country called Ramat Beis Shemesh.

  • #840106

    old man
    Member

    I suggest that we replace many of our gedolim with new ones. After all, I have access to pictures of them on the beach with girls, and of their wives with their hair uncovered.

  • #840107

    mamashtakah
    Member

    How about this solution? The fathers bring the girls to school or the mothers dress Tzinus for the few minutes every day of bringing and picking up the kids?

    Oh, and most of the Charedim do this, not just a very few!

    They are right next door.

    Well the MO “Frum” Jews can move to the West Bank with all the other MO’s that live there.

  • #840108

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “by and far most women aren’t dressed Tzinyusdik, eg. No hair covering, T-shirts with short sleeves, etc.”

    I have no idea what video you saw, and certainly can not disagree with what you claim you saw. On the other hand, I have seen several videos of this 8 year old girl and her mother. Both are dressed appropriately, hair covered, hemlines covering the appropriates places etc… YES it is true, she was not dressed according to the rulings of chassidishe (and other yerushalmi)poskim, but she is not chassidishe and should not have to, even if those men insist on it. The more I hear people defend the spitter and his defenders the more I realize this is about control of an area, not about dressing according to halacha.

  • #840109

    BTGuy
    Participant

    It’s a terrible thing to do this to this girl.

    Unfortunately, there are idiots in all groups, including ours.

    Equally unfortunately, is the media writes this up as the entire Jewish people are doing this or alluding to the fact the instead of this being done by idiots, it is being done “in Judaism”.

    They should be warned and acted upon if they continue the battery upon this child.

  • #840110

    Health
    Participant

    apushatayid -“I have no idea what video you saw, and certainly can not disagree with what you claim you saw. On the other hand, I have seen several videos of this 8 year old girl and her mother.”

    Well I posted there is a picture of her sitting on her couch

    giving an interview and her hair is showing. But let’s ignore the truth and pretend the Charedim are just starting up!

  • #840111

    Health
    Participant

    Oh, they are sitting and learning, but when they are at home they look out the window and see Pritzus. I know you can’t comprehend this, but it bothers them.

    “Well the MO “Frum” Jews can move to the West Bank with all the other MO’s that live there.

    So let them move and then they can busy themselves with burning and desecrating Mosques and attacking Jewish soldiers, like the others that live there.

    It’s funny – the media will condenm the whole Charedi world for the “terrible” violent actions of a few spitters, but they won’t condenm the whole Settler movement (Mostly M.O. Jews) for extreme violence committed against Arabs and soldiers!

  • #840112

    Sam2
    Member

    Health: No one is claiming “the Chareidim” are starting up. People are (accurately) stating that a group of idiots who pretend to be Chareidim are starting up.

    Also, can you cite your CC please? I want to look at it. If you’re quoting it properly, it seems to be the exact opposite of something in the beginning of the Simla Chadasha. Also, I feel like you’re overextending where to apply “Amisecha”, but that is a discussion for a different time.

  • #840113

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi Health.

    The media condemns all Jews like no other group.

    Whether they are bearded and work in kashrus or clean shaven and from Wall Street.

    But in this case, with spitting on this girl……it’s not a media circus. It is news that we need to

    take mussar from, big time!

  • #840114

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Well I posted there is a picture of her sitting on her couch…and her hair is showing”.

    I have not seen any pictures, only videos. The videos I have seen show a woman whose hair is covered properly. Perhaps not properly to your liking or to the liking of some of her neighbors, that is not her issue though. As long as it meets the halachic requirements as explained to her by her family Rav, then she is doing everything proper.

    “But let’s ignore the truth”

    I did not ignore the possibility that you saw pictures that I have not seen, however, you seem to ignore the possibility that every video I have seen of this woman shows a woman with properly covered hair.

  • #840115

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Oh, they are sitting and learning, but when they are at home they look out the window and see Pritzus.

    That’s why curtains were invented.

    And obviously, they’re not sitting and learning if they are out screaming at little girls.

  • #840116

    mdd
    Member

    Health, as a side point, like I told you already, check the S.A. Hilchos Ribbis that it is ossur to lend money on interest to a tinok she’nishba, but it is mutar to do it with a mumar. One is bechlal “Amisecha”, and one is not.

  • #840117

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Heath, I’ve been following the posts and have a few questions and points

    1. Did the MO neighborhoods and approval for the school precede the buildings that the Chareidim occupy? If so they can’t complain now about the view.

    2. Is the school in fact on the border? If it is and the times of the day when the girls go and come from school, why do the men any out on tat corner if the so offends them?

  • #840118

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Health: No one is claiming “the Chareidim” are starting up. People are (accurately) stating that a group of idiots who pretend to be Chareidim are starting up.”

    Well those guys aren’t starting up either. They are reacting to UnTzinus dress that they are constantly exposed to!

    “Also, can you cite your CC please? I want to look at it.”

    Mostly #4, but a lot of places besides this.

  • #840119

    Health
    Participant

    BTGuy -“But in this case, with spitting on this girl……it’s not a media circus. It is news that we need to

    take mussar from, big time!”

    Whom needs to take Mussar the Spitter or all the Charedim?

    I don’t need to take Mussar or anybody that I know -I don’t react like that!

    And since you never really read my posts -I’ll repeat something I wrote above – “It’s funny – the media will condenm the whole Charedi world for the “terrible” violent actions of a few spitters, but they won’t condenm the whole Settler movement (Mostly M.O. Jews) for extreme violence committed against Arabs and soldiers!”

  • #840120

    Health
    Participant

    apushatayid -“I did not ignore the possibility that you saw pictures that I have not seen, however, you seem to ignore the possibility that every video I have seen of this woman shows a woman with properly covered hair.”

    Therefore what? She made sure when the TV cameras were rolling to look presentable, but when in her home -on her couch -she let her hair down! (Let her guard down.) And this is when they snapped the picture.

  • #840121

    Health
    Participant

    mamashtakah -“That’s why curtains were invented.”

    So they should never allow any sunlight in? And what about when they go in and out of their house -Ya know to Daven, to learn, to shop? They shouldn’t have to wear blinders like horses. Let the Moderne either Dress Tzinus or move their school!

    “And obviously, they’re not sitting and learning if they are out screaming at little girls.”

    Well once they know that bad things is going on in their neighborhood -then they are Putter from learning and have to go out and make a Machoh!

  • #840122

    Health
    Participant

    lesschumras -“1. Did the MO neighborhoods and approval for the school precede the buildings that the Chareidim occupy? If so they can’t complain now about the view.”

    I don’t live there and I’m not 100% sure of the history. I think the MO neighborhoods were there first, but this “School” building was being built for a very long time. The MO just started using it for a school this year or last. I think the former Mayor tricked the Charedim into letting it be built, by saying it was going to be a Boy’s school.

    “2. Is the school in fact on the border? If it is and the times of the day when the girls go and come from school, why do the men any out on tat corner if the so offends them?”

    I think so.

    Who says they stand out? And read my posts above that they see the Pritzus from their neighborhood.

  • #840123

    Sam2
    Member

    Health: The “Moderne” don’t have to meet the Chassidish/Chareidish version of Tznius. As long as they follow what is a valid P’sak given by their Rabbanim (and while not accepted generally, there are opinions that are more Meikel by hair-covering), then no one can be Mocheh against them-and they certainly can’t insult, embarrass, or physically harm them.

  • #840124

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“As long as they follow what is a valid P’sak given by their Rabbanim (and while not accepted generally, there are opinions that are more Meikel by hair-covering)”

    Name one Rov that Paskens Nowadays that women can go without their hair covered, L’chatchilla?!?!

  • #840125

    Sam2
    Member

    Health: Rabbi Michael Broyde of the Beis Din of America.

  • #840126

    mdd
    Member

    Sam2, not every shitta, randomly pulled out of the hat(as is the minhag by the MO), one is allowed to rely on.

  • #840127

    mdd
    Member

    Like I said, you can find very shvere (fraught with a lot difficulties), not accepted shittos to matir half of SA with them.

  • #840128

    Sam2
    Member

    MDD: Rabbi Broyde isn’t pulling Shittos out of his hat. Regardless that many of the more left-wing “MO”s use a lot of Kulos, it’s a bit unfair to characterize “the Minhag by the MO” as being relying on random, not-accepted Shittos.

  • #840129

    adams
    Participant

    and while we are on the topic, most of the wigs they wear are more alluring than their normal hair anyway.

    How did it work with Hillel and Shamai did they come to blows did one spit on the other or call the other’s wife a Shiksa?

  • #840130

    adams
    Participant

    mdd, that is insulting to millions of Jews. WHy are you allowed to insult ? You are distoting and ruining the Torah.

  • #840131

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sam2: I believe you are misquoting Rabbi Broyde. He does not hold it is lechatchila muttar for a woman to not cover her hair. He wrote that article to be melamed zchus on the women who don’t, by providing possible halachic basis, but he does not pasken that way.

    See Michael J. Broyde, Hair Covering & Jewish Law: Biblical and Objective (Dat Moshe) or Rabbinic and Subjective (Dat Yehudit)? available at http://www.traditiononline.org/news/_pdfs/0095-0180.pdf

  • #840132

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    and while we are on the topic, most of the wigs they wear are more alluring than their normal hair anyway.

    Welcome to Judaism. We follow halacha.

  • #840133

    Sam2
    Member

    PBA: I have heard from his mouth several times. It may have been a Limud Zechus, but he holds that it’s enough for people to actually be Somech on.

  • #840134

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sam: That is not the same as him paskening it is muttar. You are just saying that he says if someone has that mesorah, it is a legitimate mesorah because he thinks there is such halachic basis.

    There is absolutely nobody I have heard of who actually holds it is is muttar.

  • #840135

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    not every shitta, randomly pulled out of the hat(as is the minhag by the MO), one is allowed to rely on.

    Not every chumra, randomly pulled out of the hat (as is the minhag by chareidim), one is allowed to rely on.

    Didn’t like that, did you?

    Personally, I am disgusted that you seem to think that it’s perfectly all right to accuse the entire MO movement of deciding halacha by something as capricious and arbitrary as “randomly pull[ing]” rulings “out of a hat.”

    I think you owe every one of them an apology.

    The Wolf

  • #840136

    Sam2
    Member

    PBA: I will look into what Rabbi Broyde holds. I think I’m right as to what he holds but I will look into it more.

  • #840137

    MiddlePath
    Member

    To the people here who have let this topic turn into an immature fight full of insults and accusations:

    Please stop.

    And I include myself in that, too. I posted a comment here, and if it added fuel to the fire, I am ashamed of it, and I regret it.

    The problem is, people that are used to insulting others as a way to “defend” their opinion will NEVER look at themselves and see a problem, and CERTAINLY not if the problem is mentioned by another person. So they’ll just ignore this plea to stop, too. Oh well. I guess I’m wasting my time.

  • #840138

    mdd
    Member

    Wolf, denial is not a place in Egypt, and there should not be many wolves there anyway. The truth hurts.

    Sam2, how is it going over there at YU? “Those who have a mesora not to cover their hair…”?????!!!! A mesora of pirtsa! And I come from a place where there is a mesora not to keep Shabbos! Have you got a heter for that?

    Seriously speaking, I do not think Rabbi Broyde’s zachen is a enough of a basis, so that others would not have the right to be moche. Actually, I think, some Gedolim made a machoh against him.

  • #840139

    Sam2
    Member

    MDD: I’m not saying that Rabbi Broyde is right. He is a Bar Hachi to have an opinion though, and his followers have a right to follow his opinion. Also, the Aruch Hashulchan sounds like my statement of “have a Mesora not to cover their hair” isn’t so inaccurate.

  • #840140

    stamamen
    Member

    sam2, that isn’t correct. The Aruch Hashulchan OC75:8 says that it is assur for a woman to go outside with her hair uncovered. He is only lenient on it being erva when a man must say a bracha, and even then only if the man can’t see her hair. But even that is only as it relates to him saying a bracha in her presence. It isn’t a heter by any means for her uncovered status. He actually decries the practice in very strong language there.

  • #840141

    mdd
    Member

    Like I said, if there is a strong mekaling shita, you can say that others may not be moche. However, if one MO Rabbi came out with a very far-off zach, which he thinks is a heter, it does not mean that everybody has to take it seriously.

  • #840142

    mdd
    Member

    Aruch HaShulchan clearly writes that not covering the hair is a pirtsa.

  • #840143

    mdd
    Member

    Mr. Adams, hema ochrei Yisroel. People who oveir issurim are ruining the Torah.

  • #840144

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“MDD: I’m not saying that Rabbi Broyde is right. He is a Bar Hachi to have an opinion though, and his followers have a right to follow his opinion. Also, the Aruch Hashulchan sounds like my statement of “have a Mesora not to cover their hair” isn’t so inaccurate.”

    I asked “L’chatchilla”? And you anwsered Rabbi Broyde & the Aruch Hashulchan. Sorry, but you made this up. They posted Rabbi Brody’s Shita here in the CR awhile back and I’ve also seen the Aruch Hashulchan, both are just saying a Limud Zecus, which is not the same as saying Mutter L’chatchilla!!!!

  • #840145

    Middle Path you are right mods please close this thread.

  • #840146

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi Health.

    Because you dont need to take mussar then no one does?

    Lest you play the “twising words card”, I will proactively post your statement here:

    “Whom needs to take Mussar the Spitter or all the Charedim?

    I don’t need to take Mussar or anybody that I know -I don’t react like that!”

    We all need to take this as mussar to avoid self-righteous indignation because we feel we are on a certain madraga that someone else is not on [yet]. The mussar can be for any point along the line of continuum and can include being harsh to spitting to fighting (literally and figuratively)

    The fact the spitter was not pounced on immediately (by me) and he is not the only one participating in this assault on a Jewish child, is something that needs to be nipped in the bud immediately.

    If there were something I can do about it, please let me know. In the meantime, it is a lesson for all of us, even in CR, to watch how we behave when we feel someone is not doing something right.

  • #840147

    adams
    Participant

    alluring wigs is Halacha? It’s a style. A an expensive lifestyle choice. The question I have is, is the majority of hair covering sufficient. There is majority of opinions to rely upon.

    SO this machlokes of the Mother not fully hair covered is a chumra machloikes.

  • #840148

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, denial is not a place in Egypt, and there should not be many wolves there anyway. The truth hurts.

    There is no truth. You made an assertion (that MO rabbis decide halacha at random) and provided no evidence to that assertion. When you provide some evidence to your baseless accusation, we’ll begin to talk about whether or not I’m in denial.

    In any event, apparently your mother never taught you proper manners. You see, when it’s been pointed out that something you said is hurtful, the proper response is “I’m sorry” not “denial’s not just a place in Egypt.” Heck, I’m not even MO and I was really bothered by what you said. I can only imagine what the MO people on this board must be feeling about your callous remark.

    But what the heck, let’s take this all the way then. I have a hat full of piskei halacha here and I think I’ll determine what I’m going to do by just picking them at random. After all, that’s how you think the MO determine halacha anyway, right?

    Well, here’s one that says that I can cook on Shabbos. Oh, well, it’s not Shabbos today, so I guess I can toss that one.

    Here’s one that says that I can eat treif today. Oh, goody. It just so happens that I have a coupon for McDonalds that I can use.

    Here’s another one that says that I have to shuckle precisely 73 times while davening Shmoneh Esrei this afternoon. I guess I’ll have to follow that one since I pulled it out of the hat today.

    Now for the last one…

    … ok, this one says I have to kill myself today as a kapparah for violating an aveirah with a chiyuv of the death penalty. Well, I guess I’m off to do that too. I have to follow it, since I pulled it out of the “random piskei halacha hat.”

    The Wolf

  • #840149

    cherrybim
    Participant

    No one wakes up one morning and starts to and lob spittle at children. This behavior is learned and taught by the likes of mmd and Health who have in fact shown us that they are part of a sick and disgusting group of individuals who will pay a heavy price for the chillel Hashem which they fomented. It is assur to give musser unless you how to give it and the halachos involved. This is no Pinchas situation. Bais Din; parents; a Rebbe are authorized to exact punishment; not any self-appointed pervert.

  • #840150

    Health…why do you feel the constant need to trample on MO? It’s clear you don’t agree with their philosophy, but there is no need to continuously bash, especially when the great majority of what you say shows that you are clearly misinformed and lack any basic understanding…

    And how did MO get brought into this discussion anyway? What does MO have to do with a man spitting on an 8yr old girl? Are you claiming that because the child is MO it was justified? (eventhough there is no indication the child was MO, not that it should matter).

    Is it because the spitter is Charedi, then according to you he was automatically in the right and the girl and her family brought this on herself?

    Because, this is what it sounds like…

    Anyhow; keep up with your nonsensical posts, they provide me with great amusement during an otherwise boring work day.

  • #840151

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    This is nuts, absolutely nuts.

    I care about shemiras einayim and hilchos tznius. I am personally bothered when people are lax with these halachos. But these protesters are so warped in their actions that I can’t believe anyone here is attempting to mount a defense for them.

    Let’s not even get into the spitting on an 8-year old yet. That’s in a league of its own. Why are these protesters even there? If what “Health” says is true, that they can see immodestly dressed women from their windows due to this school, how on earth can they justify running up to the school to get a closer look (while yelling at them of course)? Would a person concerned about exposure to radiation protest a nuclear power plant being built across the street from his house by running into the radioactive core? Pure shemiras einayim cannot be their motivation, because if it were, it would be their WIVES out there protesting. The men would stay as far away from the school as they could, choosing instead to complain through other channels. My wife would never want me to place myself in a situation where it would be certain that I would see pritzus. In fact, to do that is a violation of halacha.

    Now for the spitting. Some (or one) here have attempted to say, “the MO started it, so they have the blame for inflaming the crazies.” Excuse me? That’s an argument little children use. Real adults take responsibility for their actions, no matter what instigated the situation. If I assault a guy who cut me off in traffic, do you think the cops will excuse me if I said, “but he started it, he had it coming! He shoulda known that there are crazy people around!” Another argument made here to defend these men is “maybe the children are dressed ok, but the problem is the mothers walking the children to school are immodest…” Well then, why was it the 8-year old girl who got spit on? Did the monster miss the mother and hit the girl by mistake? Maybe he was accidentally facing children when hurling epithets and meant to face the mothers? I don’t think so.

    Unfortunately we do have a tznius problem, and I think some people here are afraid that if they fully condemned the spitter, they would somehow be yielding ground in their argument. But this crime was not about tznius. If we allow tznius to be co-opted by sheer perversion, to be used as a weapon by debauched individuals to violate women with the veneer of “holiness”, then we lose everything.

    Misogyny is not a mitzvah.

  • #840152

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Now that the Agudah; OU; RCA have strongly condemned these behaviors; it will be interesting to see which Israeli chareidi organizations join this group.

  • #840153

    optimusprime
    Member

    WolfishMusings

    +1

  • #840154

    Health
    Participant

    BTGuy -“Because you dont need to take mussar then no one does?”

    Where did I say that? You came here to give Mussar -whom is this Mussar directed to? The Charedim in general or the spitters?

    You know full and well the spitters aren’t reading posts in this website.

    “We all need to take this as mussar to avoid self-righteous indignation because we feel we are on a certain madraga that someone else is not on [yet]. The mussar can be for any point along the line of continuum and can include being harsh to spitting to fighting (literally and figuratively)”

    Again most Charedim don’t need Mussar “to avoid self-righteous indignation” because we don’t have any “self-righteous indignation”. Why do you think we do? Is this something inbred in you from your childhood?

    “The fact the spitter was not pounced on immediately (by me) and he is not the only one participating in this assault on a Jewish child, is something that needs to be nipped in the bud immediately.”

    He was not the only one, but there were a Few Charedim there, so what? And who says if 99% of the Charedim were standing there they wouldn’t stop this guy?

    “If there were something I can do about it, please let me know. In the meantime, it is a lesson for all of us, even in CR, to watch how we behave when we feel someone is not doing something right.”

    We should watch how we behave and most Charedim do; and since we do -we don’t need any Mussar on this. Who are you to come here and give Mussar to all Charedim? Perhaps you are the one with self-righteous indignation?

  • #840155

    Health
    Participant

    adams -“The question I have is, is the majority of hair covering sufficient. There is majority of opinions to rely upon.

    SO this machlokes of the Mother not fully hair covered is a chumra machloikes.”

    Since when is covering all your hair a Machlokes? Name any Rov that says it’s Mutter L’chatchilla to Not cover your whole hair?

  • #840156

    Health
    Participant

    cherrybim -“It is assur to give musser unless you how to give it and the halachos involved.”

    They aren’t doing it to give Mussar!

    “No one wakes up one morning and starts to and lob spittle at children. This behavior is learned and taught by the likes of mmd and Health who have in fact shown us that they are part of a sick and disgusting group of individuals who will pay a heavy price for the chillel Hashem which they fomented. It is assur to give musser unless you how to give it and the halachos involved. This is no Pinchas situation. Bais Din; parents; a Rebbe are authorized to exact punishment; not any self-appointed pervert.”

    So acc. to your logic of collective blame – No one wakes up one morning and starts to desecrate & burn Mosques and attack Innocent Israeli soldiers. This behavior is learned and taught by the likes of cherrybim and all other MO’s and setttlers and their supporters; who have in fact shown us that they are part of a sick and disgusting group of individuals who will pay a heavy price for the chillel Hashem which they fomented. This is no Pinchas situation. Bais Din; the Israeli gov. are authorized to exact punishment; not any self-appointed vigilante!

  • #840157

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi Health.

    I hate to say it but either you have a comprehension problem, misunderstand the context of a post (which is epidemic in blogging and texting) or are being extremely childish in wanting to “win” when you cant really “win” with someone of a differing opinion.

    But, in this case, you do “win” because I am tired of having to spell things out and then you go off point to try to save your point, which you dont have to do since your opinion is valid to you and you own it, as I do mine.

    Sooooo….is it safe to say that we both think what happened to this girl was a bad thing and this is newsworthy and an embarrassment to Jews?

  • #840158

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “pervert”

    The proper term for grown men hanging around a girls elementary school.

  • #840159

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    the Aguda has not properly condemed these acts, I saw the statement and they blame the victims.

    If this didnt involve charedim and someone was stalking out 8 year old girls, They would be called pedaphiles.

    In fact one of the protesters said he was concerened about being led on by an 8 year old. he is a pedaphile.

  • #840160

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Thanks health, you have done a far better job at showing your true character than anyone else could.

  • #840161

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Exactly how much hair is “uncovered”, Rav Falk, who by many accounts follows the most stringent opinion at all times, writes the following….

    “Hair which is difficult to contain in a regular well-fitted hair covering is halachically (according to law) exempt from this obligation. This refers to hair which grows on the temples next to the ear or on an exceptionally low hairline that extends below what a net or tiechel (scarf) would normally contain.”

    The quote comes from Modesty- An Adornment for Life, Rabbi Pesach Eliyahu Falk (exact page number is somewhere in the 230s I believe, dont remember exactly where).

    He continues….

    “Although there is no obligation to cover such hair, nevertheless, if local shomrei mitzvos (observant Jews) are stringent and cover them, the halacha (law) obliges women who live in this locality to behave likewise.”

    On the flip side…There is the opinion of Rav Moshe Z’l in E”H 1:58 (I dont do hebrew fonts) that seems to permit a woman to show one square tefach of hair. However, he adds that since a woman’s head, on average, is about two tefachim wide, she should not allow more than half of a tefach to stick out.

    The question, I guess, boils down to who or what established/establishes minhag hamakom? Is minhag hamakom like Rav Moshe, or like the Poskim Rav Falk relies on (I dont remember who he quotes).

  • #840162

    Health
    Participant

    cherrybim – My pleasure. Only after I learned from you how to show your true character.

  • #840163

    Health
    Participant

    BTGuy -“Sooooo….is it safe to say that we both think what happened to this girl was a bad thing and this is newsworthy and an embarrassment to Jews?”

    Getting spit on is a bad thing. Why do you make me repeat things a hundred times? I hate to say it but you must have a comprehension problem!

    Now is it Newsworthy? Well if after the Israeli media finish discussing in gory detail all the crimes that occur on a daily basis in Israel, then I guess they can mention it. But, I really don’t think they would have the time, because the News is only about a half-hour or a hour long. Just discussing one crime in detail would take up the most time. But for some reason (I can’t imagine why) they only have the time to discuss this “Major” crime of spitting.

    I guess all crimes in Israel have stopped because 1. – They all are watching the Charedi bashing all day in the news – so there is no time for any criminal activity.

    Or 2. – They have all become BT’s, B’H.

    Barring these two reasons – they should be discussing the most violent crimes first!

    As far as “embarrassment to Jews”, there is a topic on this in the CR, and I have many posts on this. Check it out!

  • #840164

    BTGuy
    Participant

    ^

    |

    |

    |

    |

    Stop it you two!

    In the posting game, everyone is sensitive about their views, to one degree or another. Dont be hating because people feel differently. I know it is easy to take things personal, but try not to, and grow.

  • #840165

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD -“Why are these protesters even there? If what “Health” says is true, that they can see immodestly dressed women from their windows due to this school, how on earth can they justify running up to the school to get a closer look (while yelling at them of course)? The men would stay as far away from the school as they could, choosing instead to complain through other channels. My wife would never want me to place myself in a situation where it would be certain that I would see pritzus.”

    This is a logical question. But I’ve posted here a few times -there is a reason and s/o should start a topic about it.

    “Now for the spitting. Some (or one) here have attempted to say, “the MO started it, so they have the blame for inflaming the crazies.” Excuse me? That’s an argument little children use. Real adults take responsibility for their actions, no matter what instigated the situation. If I assault a guy who cut me off in traffic, do you think the cops will excuse me if I said, “but he started it, he had it coming! He shoulda known that there are crazy people around!” Another argument made here to defend these men is “maybe the children are dressed ok, but the problem is the mothers walking the children to school are immodest…” Well then, why was it the 8-year old girl who got spit on? Did the monster miss the mother and hit the girl by mistake? Maybe he was accidentally facing children when hurling epithets and meant to face the mothers? I don’t think so.”

    Excuse me? Noone here defended the spitter. The only thing that was the defended was the protests! You don’t seem to be able to differentiate. Very sad! So this last diatribe is a storm in a tea cup!

    “Unfortunately we do have a tznius problem, and I think some people here are afraid that if they fully condemned the spitter, they would somehow be yielding ground in their argument.”

    I don’t know what you are talking about -name s/o who is afraid to condemn it? You are starting to sound like the Freye or MO haters. Every single Charedi must proclaim from the rooftops and scream we are against spitting or we all are complicit with the spitters.

    Typical double standard! Does Every Single MO or settler condemn publically the desecration & burning of Mosques and attack on soldiers? Does Every Single Freye Jew (Chiloni) condenm the crimes that occur daily amongst them?

  • #840166

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    I can only imagine what the MO people on this board must be feeling about your callous remark

    This MO couldn’t care less. After all, I’m not really MO. I’m just not charedi ???? ????? ?? ?????

  • #840167

    Health
    Participant

    mikehall -“Health…why do you feel the constant need to trample on MO? It’s clear you don’t agree with their philosophy, but there is no need to continuously bash, especially when the great majority of what you say shows that you are clearly misinformed and lack any basic understanding…”

    Mike…why do you feel the constant need to trample on Charedim? It’s clear you don’t agree with their philosophy, but there is no need to continuously bash, especially when the great majority of what you say shows that you are clearly misinformed and lack any basic understanding…!

    “And how did MO get brought into this discussion anyway? What does MO have to do with a man spitting on an 8yr old girl? Are you claiming that because the child is MO it was justified? (eventhough there is no indication the child was MO, not that it should matter).”

    The child comes from the MO community. Sorry that you don’t have the time to read that part in the news. And who ever claimed that the spitting was justified?

    “Is it because the spitter is Charedi, then according to you he was automatically in the right and the girl and her family brought this on herself?

    Because, this is what it sounds like…”

    Not defending the spitter, but his spitting was a reaction to the provocation. Yes, they shouldn’t start up with bringing their kids to school with them not dressing properly!

    “Anyhow; keep up with your nonsensical posts, they provide me with great amusement during an otherwise boring work day.”

    Anyhow; keep up with your nonsensical, spiteful, hateful posts, they provide me with great amusement during an otherwise boring day!

  • #840168

    Fight in the CR!

    I’m taking bets. 50 CR points or one cup o’ joe that they both fall down flat out exhausted.

    Any Takers?

  • #840169

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi Avrum in MD.

    Nice post.

  • #840170

    Health
    Participant

    apushatayid -“Exactly how much hair is “uncovered”, Rav Falk, who by many accounts follows the most stringent opinion at all times, writes the following….

    The question, I guess, boils down to who or what established/establishes minhag hamakom? Is minhag hamakom like Rav Moshe, or like the Poskim Rav Falk relies on (I dont remember who he quotes).”

    In this case it doesn’t matter, the MO’s here (Bet Shemesh) don’t keep the Din acc. to either!

  • #840171

    Health
    Participant

    apushatayid & zahavasdad -“pervert”

    “The proper term for grown men hanging around a girls elementary school.

    If this didnt involve charedim and someone was stalking out 8 year old girls, They would be called pedaphiles.”

    I guess acc. to your logic I shouldn’t have used the word “vigilante” when referring to ones who attack Soldiers and desecrate & burn Mosques. They should be referred to as “MO Murderers or Terrorists”. Because with their violence they could have easily murdered s/o; much more than s/o who spits and protests Tzinus can come to Pedophilia!

  • #840172

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi Health.

    What am I going to do with you? lol

    You say, “Not defending the spitter, but his spitting was a reaction to the provocation. Yes, they shouldnt start up with bringing their kids to school with them not dressing properly!”

    Whoa!! I want to avoid a whole schmear of verbiage between us, so just answer me this, if you dont mind:

    You said that spitting is bad and that you are “not defending the spitter”. Do you really think no one will see any semblance of a defense for the spitter in your above quoted statement????

    This is why we go round in circles, I believe. Maybe you express yourself with using words and terms more loosely than I am used to.

    Perhaps you might want to tighten up your thoughts in writing to avoid misrepresenting yourself.

    I believe you see a point to both sides. I have to add, though, that even if the girl came to school dressed in shorts, one would have to be a complete idiot to spit at that child in the name of Torah.

    As individuals, we all have a need to correct ourselves. Sometimes as a community that may be the case too.

  • #840173

    Health…I caught that you didn’t say a “boring work day”….figures I know your probably allergic to an honest day of work 🙂

  • #840174

    apushatayid
    Participant

    This is getting very childish, and sillier by the hour. I am waiting for someone to call someone a doodyhead and stick out their tongue.

  • #840175

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    This is getting very childish, and sillier by the hour. I am waiting for someone to call someone a doodyhead and stick out their tongue.

    Oh, don’t be such a doodyhead. :p 🙂

    The Wolf

  • #840176

    apushatayid
    Participant

    🙂

  • #840177

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Health, you keep claiming the woman’s hair was uncovered. I understand you can’t post a link to such a picture even if you had one, however, every single video about the story in this thread shows a woman who is properly covered. There really is no point in going round and round here. It is what is already going on in RBS.

  • #840178

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Health,

    This [why men who supposedly care about shemiras einayim would congregate around a girls school with improperly dressed girls/parents for any reason -recap mine] is a logical question. But I’ve posted here a few times -there is a reason and s/o should start a topic about it.

    Please, provide me a reason. I cannot think of any.

    Noone here defended the spitter.

    I don’t know what you are talking about -name s/o who is afraid to condemn it?

    You.

    Example:

    Not defending the spitter, but his spitting was a reaction to the provocation.

    This is a defense of the spitter… providing a justification. Your adding “not defending the spitter” to this defense of the spitter does nothing but make an oxymoron. Like when the P.A. says, “oh, we condemn suicide bombings, but the suicide bombers are just reacting to Israeli oppression…” No, the spitting was not a reaction to any provocation. It was an act of abuse, an assault, pure and simple.

    You are starting to sound like the Freye or MO haters.

    I’m not afraid of your threatened labels.

    Every single Charedi must proclaim from the rooftops and scream we are against spitting or we all are complicit with the spitters.

    Typical double standard!

    As a Jewish male who cares about guarding my eyes, this was a crime that was committed in my name, in my defense! So yes, I or my leaders have a responsibility to speak out. If someone heaven forbid killed a motorist and told the police that he did it so that “Avram in MD” would have a quicker commute, you’d better bet that I’d condemn it!

    Does Every Single MO or settler condemn publically the desecration & burning of Mosques and attack on soldiers?

    The Yesha Council and Im Tirtzu, among other prominent officials in that movement did unequivocally condemn the violence.

    Does Every Single Freye Jew (Chiloni) condenm the crimes that occur daily amongst them?

    Should we follow their lead?

  • #840179

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The wheels on the bus go round and round……

  • #840180

    Health
    Participant

    BTGuy -“Hi Health.”

    Stop with Hi -I don’t know you that you have to greet me -so it’s annoying.

    “You say, “Not defending the spitter, but his spitting was a reaction to the provocation. Yes, they shouldnt start up with bringing their kids to school with them not dressing properly!”

    Whoa!! I want to avoid a whole schmear of verbiage between us, so just answer me this, if you dont mind:

    You said that spitting is bad and that you are “not defending the spitter”. Do you really think no one will see any semblance of a defense for the spitter in your above quoted statement????”

    I’m not interested what’s going on in your mind or anyone elses.

    You claim to be knowledable in the English language. Explaining why s/o reacted the way he did is Not necessarily defending his behavior. And in this case, I said clearly what I hold.

    “I believe you see a point to both sides. I have to add, though, that even if the girl came to school dressed in shorts, one would have to be a complete idiot to spit at that child in the name of Torah.”

    So what? And do you think the mother isn’t responsible for provoking such a response -whether it’s shorts or a different Untzinus dress?

    “As individuals, we all have a need to correct ourselves. Sometimes as a community that may be the case too.”

    Sorry, now you sound like all the MO haters. I don’t believe in collective blame!

  • #840181

    Health
    Participant

    mikehall- “Health…I caught that you didn’t say a “boring work day”….figures I know your probably allergic to an honest day of work”

    What hypocrisy!! You spending time on YWN when you are supposed to be working is dishonest and stealing from your boss.

    Unless you work for yourself and instead of helping out your employees with their work, you overwork them so you can play in the CR!

  • #840182

    Health
    Participant

    apushatayid -“Health, you keep claiming the woman’s hair was uncovered. I understand you can’t post a link to such a picture even if you had one, however, every single video about the story in this thread shows a woman who is properly covered. There really is no point in going round and round here. It is what is already going on in RBS.”

    The picture was in another Frum website, in like the first article on this.

    Since then she wisened up or s/o wisened her up. “Make it look like you did nothing wrong – No provocation -so it’s only the Charedims’ fault for this whole incident. You are perfectly innocent.”

    And you fall for her new Tzinus look. She knows the cameras are rolling. It’s like going to Manhattan to watch the ball drop and saying – “Wow, e/o in NYC dresses Tzinus”.

    Only an idiot would say that because if you go to Times Square in July, you’ll find most people Don’t dress Tzinus!

  • #840183

    Health
    Participant

    Avram in MD -“Health,

    This [why men who supposedly care about shemiras einayim would congregate around a girls school with improperly dressed girls/parents for any reason -recap mine] is a logical question. But I’ve posted here a few times -there is a reason and s/o should start a topic about it.

    Please, provide me a reason. I cannot think of any.”

    A few feet down isn’t a new topic!

    “Noone here defended the spitter.

    I don’t know what you are talking about -name s/o who is afraid to condemn it?”

    “You.”

    LIAR!!!!!

    “Example:

    Not defending the spitter, but his spitting was a reaction to the provocation.

    This is a defense of the spitter… providing a justification. Your adding “not defending the spitter” to this defense of the spitter does nothing but make an oxymoron. Like when the P.A. says, “oh, we condemn suicide bombings, but the suicide bombers are just reacting to Israeli oppression…” No, the spitting was not a reaction to any provocation. It was an act of abuse, an assault, pure and simple.”

    This I just posted -“Explaining why s/o reacted the way he did is Not necessarily defending his behavior. And in this case, I said clearly what I hold.” This isn’t a justification either -it’s an explanation. Too bad your sick Sinas Chinum doesn’t let you see the truth in regards to Charedim!

    “You are starting to sound like the Freye or MO haters.

    I’m not afraid of your threatened labels.”

    So I’ll take this response as an Yes, I do hate Charedim!

    But are you Frei or MO?

    “As a Jewish male who cares about guarding my eyes, this was a crime that was committed in my name, in my defense! So yes, I or my leaders have a responsibility to speak out.”

    This is the best one yet. They did it for YOU? Do you think you are G-d???? For your name? For your defense?

    “If someone heaven forbid killed a motorist and told the police that he did it so that “Avram in MD” would have a quicker commute, you’d better bet that I’d condemn it!”

    Most people would say -“Don’t bother me with some lunatic’s drivel”. Unless you’re feeling guilty. People don’t defend any accusation hurled at them, unless they have some guilt for whatever occured!

    “Does Every Single MO or settler condemn publically the desecration & burning of Mosques and attack on soldiers?

    The Yesha Council and Im Tirtzu, among other prominent officials in that movement did unequivocally condemn the violence.”

    You didn’t answer the question! I asked -Did Every Single one condemn it?

  • #840184

    You know, I’ve been following this thread on and off for the last couple of days and it seems to me that through all the discussion of sleeve length, hem line and hair covering, not to mention a few random rants from Health the main point is being missed. The unterste shura is that there can be no possible justification for cursing and physically assaulting an eight year old girl!

    It doesn’t matter what she or her mother was or wasn’t wearing. The actions of those sub-human yahoos are irredeemable and I assure them and you that they cannot do teshuva for their monumental aveiros and that the have no cheilek in Olam Haba’a, and if they or anyone on this thread doubts my ability to make such a statement (that means you, Health), look me up in 120 years.

  • #840185

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The actions of those sub-human yahoos are irredeemable and I assure them and you that they cannot do teshuva for their monumental aveiros and that the have no cheilek in Olam Haba’a.

    Irredeemable? Can’t do teshuva? Wow. I’m pretty sure you are wrong on that count.

    No cheilek in olam haba? Pretty sure you are wrong on that count also.

    sub-human? Ok, you are getting a bit carried away. I don’t think a simple assault makes you sub-human. Actually, nothing you can do makes you sub-human, but I recognize that we don’t like to group ourselves together with really bad people, and sometimes like to think that murderers and rapists are sub-human. But it is totally uncalled for here.

    Now, some people call each other sub-human, when they are attempting to de-empathize with them. Like Whites did to Blacks, Nazis did to Jews, Tutsis did to Hutus, etc. If that is what you are doing, then you are the dangerous one who belongs in jail with them.

  • #840188

    I second PBA.

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