A Woman's Place in Frum Society

Home Coffeeroom Decaffeinated Coffee A Woman's Place in Frum Society

Viewing 92 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
  • #599615

    soliek
    Member

    Since when does the Torah have to support Feminism? Why is it that so many women have a hard time understanding that they have their place in society much like men have their place in society? I really don;t understand why so many people get slammed for saying it; that’s how it’s always been! Women yell until they’re blue in the face about how unfair it is that men can have a career but they can’t, to which I say, “Gadol hametzuva v’oseh m’mi she’eno metzuvah v’oseh!” It’s true that “Bzeas apecha tochal lechem” isn’t a mitzvah, but then again, it was Adam’s curse, not Chava’s.

    I really don’t understand why women would want to accept upon themselves an additional klalah on top of childbirth etc. Personally I would want to minimize on klallos, as a man, seeing as I think that women got the shorter end of the stick anyway. Keep childbirth, I’m fine with work, but why deal with both?

    And what Mitzvos Aseh Shehazman Grama? Isn’t the reason why women are patur because they don’t have time in their day because they take care of children? Would it not stand to reason that if the reason no longer applied neither should the p’tur? Obviously I’m not saying that women who work should perform those mitzvos, but logically one could come to that conclusion.

    And how about when their kids have issues in school or socially etc because they were raised by nannies and didn’t receive the attention they need? I mean, if women were given a p’tur specifically to take care of their children, then it once again stands to reason, logically, that they would be at fault if their kid as issues due to a mother who is never around.

    But why is it so unpalatable for women to have a place in society that is not identical to a man’s? The whole premise of the feminist movement is flawed in its goals because men and women ARE different. Men have a purpose and women have a purpose. each is half of a partnership in building a bayis ne’eman. the man works, and the woman cares for the children etc. In mitzrayim the roles were reversed and that was considered cruel! It’s not that one is superior and the other inferior, each has a specific role to play in a successful partnership.

    I suppose the grass is always greener on the other side, but seriously, don’t you women see your husbands come home after a full day’s work exhausted, force himself to go learn, come home again, quickly eat dinner, spend some time with the kids, then collapse into bed exhausted? Why would you want that? (Of course none of this accounts for Kolel wives…that’s a whole separate issue.)

    Also all this talk about intellectual stimulation and women learning and all that jazz…there is plenty for you to learn without having to go to rabbi pauline’s gemarah glass. It’s out there, go find it. But of course…only once dinner is ready 😛

  • #814495

    truthsharer
    Member

    You can’t tell a woman to go out and work to support her family and then tell her to stay home and be a woman like the women of 1,000 years ago.

  • #814496

    shmoel
    Member

    Well said OP.

    A woman’s place is at home.

    That’s what Shulchan Aruch, the Jewish code of law, says.

  • #814497

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Women don’t need to listen to the torah, since they aren’t really jewish

  • #814498

    sam4321
    Member

    The fact that women perpetuate the Jewish linage seems to me they play a big role.

  • #814499

    If a woman’s place is in the home, how is she supposed to support the entire family so that the husband can stay in Kollel?

  • #814500

    Smick.
    Member

    Popa; what makes a woman not Jewish? Cause she didn’t have a bris mila???

  • #814501

    Women should stay home….as long as men get jobs and support their families…

  • #814502

    soliek
    Member

    “If a woman’s place is in the home, how is she supposed to support the entire family so that the husband can stay in Kollel?”

    she shouldnt…her husband should either get a job…or make arrangements

  • #814503

    LBK
    Member

    The New York Post quoted a poster on theyeshivaworld.com this morning in their article about women joining hatzalah. I’m not why the article belongs in the Post, but apparently YWN is the place to go for info on orthodox feminism discussions!!

  • #814504

    miritchka
    Member

    popa: thanks for the laugh! its an old joke in our family (and i’m sure many others) and every time i see that line, it cracks me up!

    wanderingchana: thats a good question that has yet to be answered. i work and like many other woman in my position with little children, its hard and as much as i would love to be the sole supporter so my husband can learn full time, i physically cant do it all. my husband learns full time and is on call for his job full time too. He works late into the night so that he can learn as much as possibleduring the day. But, unlike those “better than thou” men who think that they must learn all day and night and leave the burden of working and the responsibilites of bringing up children to their wives, my husband actually cares about my health and sanity. After seeing so many of my friends overworked and hardly having any time for themselves if any, i appreciate my husband more and more…

    soleik: i believe that learning torah is very important for the man of the Jewish family/house, but i agree with you that it is important for him to be there for them too whether it means working part time or working full time and learning at night…

  • #814506

    Queen Bee
    Member

    Here’s my opinion. I don’t mean to offend anyone, so please don’t throw rocks at me.

    Guys, before you start yelling at me, I know you have it hard too. Life is hard. It would just be nice to help your wives in any way possible to make her life easier. I know a lot of you do, and that’s great, but I’m talking about those who don’t. You can argue that some wives want to live like that. Great, good for them. I’m not knocking down the kollel life. But I still think a husband should do whatever it takes to ease his wife’s burden.

  • #814507

    sam4321
    Member

    You understand perfectly.That is what she chose and that is what making a sacrafice means.

  • #814508

    Queen Bee, I agree 100%

  • #814509

    MiddlePath
    Member

    Queen Bee, two thumbs up!

  • #814510

    littleapple
    Member

    I heard Rabbi Pesach Krohn say a Chazal that a man being m’farnais his family is like he is going through tzar laida 24/6. Does anyone know the source because it has been giving me chizuk since I heard this 2 or so years ago (although my wife has not been so misratzeh with it) on the other hand she doesn’t work, at the moment she’s looking (it’s been a long moment btw so far about 18 years), but if true then soliek’s opening comparison of the two klalos is more than valid because in one way the man’s is much more intense!!

  • #814511

    Toi
    Member

    Queen bee- two thumbs down. if a woman CHOOSES this life- kol hakavod,shes a baalas madreiga and should be praised. if she doesnt want it then dont do it and marry someone else. with regards to the OP- youre dead right. men and women have different tafkidim as layed down by chazal. they were created differently. for the genders to try and switch roles is a perversion of the briah, or Hashem wouldnt have made these differences. good for you.

  • #814512

    Queen Bee
    Member

    The real question is: did she CHOOSE that life because a) she really believes it’s the best life for her b) she was brainwashed c) everyone else is doing it d) she feared she wouldn’t be able to get married.

    And btw, your post is contradicting. If you believe that men and women are created differently and have different roles, then you should believe that it’s the husband’s job to support the family financially while the wife stays home with the kids and takes care of the house. (Even if your wife CHOSE to support you).

  • #814513

    flowers
    Member

    >>Since when does the Torah have to support Feminism?<<

    Where in the Torah does it say a woman is not allowed to work?

    Says who working equals feminism?

    You question why would women needlessly accept the klalah of work upon themselves. They don’t.

    If they work even though they are adequately supported from their husbands, they don’t have the burden of parnasah on their head! So it isn’t a curse for them. If they work because they need the money, it isn’t an option. They have no choice!

  • #814514

    Toi
    Member

    QB- the ops issue as i understood it wasnt so much a woman working, as much as she was questioning the role reversal that seems to be taking over society, and how women need this sort of “liberation” against male dominancy. she explicitly stated that she is of the opinion that kollel is different. what she meant, as i understood, was in the terms of general society, why do jews feel the need to conform to what is the vogue in society when it can come to be at odds with jewish hashkafa. kolel is not against jewish hashkafa, as such my post was not contradictory.

  • #814515

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “if a woman CHOOSES this life”

    Isn’t she then assuming the mans tafkid? Isnt that what the OP is railing against?

  • #814516

    littleapple
    Member

    Queen Bee : please think about, in addition to house and kids, caring for a man who is supporting you and them and having “tzaar laida 24/6” , btw Gut gebenched yahr CR!

  • #814517

    Queen Bee
    Member

    Toi, my post had nothing to do with feminism or role reversal. Another poster had mentioned kollel life, so I was wondering how a man could put the burden of parnassah on his wife when she has many other responsibilities. That’s all.

  • #814518

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “They have no choice!”

    sure they do. the husband can take on a first, or even a second job. jewish men have been doing so since avraham avinu raised cattle. the chofetz chaim spent a few hours helping his wife in the store. the battle for the man has always been how to balance his torah and his ol parnassa. If his wife accepts this role upon herself, good for her, it does not mean it is the ideal.

  • #814519

    agittayid
    Participant

    It’s kind of surprising that people who accept change grudgingly would leap headfirst into a grand social experiment. The kollel way of life is not just about learning. It has an impact on many facets of family life in the frum community.

  • #814520

    Queen Bee
    Member

    Oh, I forgot to say thanks to mikehall12382 and MiddlePath. It’s great that others feel the same way as I do, though I knew you’d feel the same, MP 🙂

  • #814521

    chanie
    Member

    Littleapple, Why don’t you call Rabbi Krohn and ask him?

    Apushatayid, The only reason why the Chofetz Chaim spent an hour or so at his wife’s store, was to make sure that all the weights and measures were correct.

  • #814522

    Toi
    Member

    QB- the op was clearly railing against the element of feminism that has crept into society. the problem would seemingly be a discrepancy with torah hashkafa; a discprepancy not found in the kollel lifestyle. her problem wasnt working. and i agree with you that a husband should do whatever he can to ease a wife’s burden.

  • #814523

    Sam2
    Member

    Chanie: Revisionist history at its best.

  • #814525

    This is a Machlokes between the Gedolim.

    Rav Miller and others like him hold that the woman should be at home, and the husband should be the breadwinner and king of the house.

    The proponents of Kollel (such as the current Roshei Yeshiva in Lakewood) hold that the woman should be the breadwinner and king of the house, and the man should be in Kollel.

    Both are valid Jewish Hashkafos, and one should speak to a Rov and look at all the angles to decide which is best for their Yiddishkeit.

  • #814526

    flowers
    Member

    apushatayid: I wasn’t referring to kollel couples. I was referring to either men who are too lazy to earn a decent living, or men who try hard but just aren’t making enough.

    Why do you suppose it’s better for a man to work two jobs, and not have any time for his family, than for a woman to take a part time job, and they take care of the family together in whatever way works for them? Not all working men have the stamina to work work two jobs, nor are many willing. There are also men who are not interested in helping out at home nor willing to make real effort to earn a decent living. Then what is a woman to do?

    This OP annoyed me because many wonderful women work VERY HARD juggling both their family and their job, and they get critisized!

  • #814527

    PS

    “Apushatayid, The only reason why the Chofetz Chaim spent an hour or so at his wife’s store, was to make sure that all the weights and measures were correct”

    That is still called working….

  • #814528

    Well said.

  • #814529

    EzratHashem
    Member

    When a person says we must be a 2-income family then the question must be about standard of living. If we are talking about trying to put meals on the table and meet monthly expenses, it’s one thing, but if it’s about buying an expensive house,imported furniture, cars, designer clothing & sheitels, the latest gadgets, the list goes on and on, well, should the little kids have to sacrifice having their mommy raise them for the gashmius?

  • #814530

    When a person says we must be a 2-income family then the question must be about standard of living. If we are talking about trying to put meals on the table and meet monthly expenses, it’s one thing, but if it’s about buying an expensive house,imported furniture, cars, designer clothing & sheitels, the latest gadgets, the list goes on and on, well, should the little kids have to sacrifice having their mommy raise them for the gashmius?

    Or Full tuition.

  • #814531

    EzratHashem
    Member

    Personally I would place tuition in the category of necessary monthly expenses, as opposed to the list of luxuries. Whether tuition is too high is another thread.

  • #814532

    soliek
    Member

    well i find the whole system which forces women to work to be objectionable…

  • #814533

    “Or Full tuition.”

    I often wonder how many kids in my childrens classes actually pay full tuition…Sometimes I wonder if I’m subsidising other children, becasue I pay the full amount….And I don’t live the “high” life with a dual income not have a fancy house/cars…when you p[ay the full amount there is little left over

  • #814534

    One thing I can say is that I find Chasidish girls are generally very temimusdik. (By others too, but by them it is much more prevalent.)

  • #814535

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I am really curious how the OP believes a women with children should spend every waking hour of her day? The implication is that if she does anything or has an interest in anything other than to take care of the children or the household she is a feminist.

  • #814536

    Personally I would place tuition in the category of necessary monthly expenses, as opposed to the list of luxuries. Whether tuition is too high is another thread.

    And since you can’t pay full tuition on a single 5 figure (or even low six figure) salary….

  • #814537

    well i find the whole system which forces women to work to be objectionable…

    So do I. I propose that “soliek” will from here on in pay everyone’s tuition and needs, allowing women to be home and men be in Kollel.

    I often wonder how many kids in my childrens classes actually pay full tuition…Sometimes I wonder if I’m subsidising other children, becasue I pay the full amount….And I don’t live the “high” life with a dual income not have a fancy house/cars…when you p[ay the full amount there is little left over

    I know they don’t. I have to do what is Yashar, and they have to do what they think is right.

  • #814538

    littleapple
    Member

    I often wonder… Why not ask the Administrator what is the break even point and what is the average family paying? Then you will know where you fall. A major large Yeshiva in Brooklyn published that info several years ago in the hope it would help with donations, I heard it didn’t.

  • #814539

    You cannot force women to work for the purpose of paying full tuition. A woman’s place is at home.

  • #814540

    I feel it is my responsibility to pay the full tuition bill, if that means working longer and harder, or having my wife work as well…so be it…

    I have no problem with people who are doing their best getting help, but I do have an issue subsidising a child’s tuition when the father is not working and is “able body and mind”….

  • #814542

    You cannot force women to work for the purpose of paying full tuition. A woman’s place is at home.

    Edit: We have outlawed slavery, correct. However, the question is what is supposed to be done, not what can you get away with. The husband could also sit at home doing nothing and his children would still be accepted to yeshiva.

  • #814543

    Excellent question. File it under “Why should I not take Tzedaka when others do?” Or “Do I really mean it when I ask Hashem “Lo Lidai Matnas Basar V’Dam”?”

  • #814544

    I often wonder… Why not ask the Administrator what is the break even point and what is the average family paying? Then you will know where you fall

    At least for me, I have no need to do so.

  • #814545

    “Source?”

    A woman’s place is defined in the Torah and commentaries. It is at home, not at work.

  • #814546

    1: Where have Chazal said so in place of the other option being to take Tzedaka?

    2: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/a-womans-place-in-frum-society#post-306001 . Your assumption is false.

  • #814547

    gavra, the position you attribute to the RY of Lakewood is incorrect. (It is at best only half correct in what their position is.) Also see the third comment made by a poster on this thread, a point you haven’t acknowledged.

  • #814548

    Giving a family a break on paying full tuition is for people who need help, who have exhausted all other means and have no choice but to accept it. To me this means that the husband desires to work, is searching for work and is unable to find it, or simply not making enough..

    However if the women is working and the ONLY bread winner, while the husband is not working but is physically and mentally capable of doing so, Then why should families paying full tuition subsidies their children?

    Then how do you justify a man sitting in Kollel all day and the women working to support their families? How can you have it both ways?

  • #814549

    tickle toe eitus:

    gavra, the position you attribute to the RY of Lakewood is incorrect.

    OK, so what is their position? Any quotes (not Boich Svaras, once again). Why do they promote women working out of the home?

    Also see the third comment made by a poster on this thread, a point you haven’t acknowledged.

    Kol Kavod Bas Melech is Halacha, and we have dealt with it many times here in the CR. I have nothing to add to that point.

    My question to you though, is does it apply now (either at all, or with the alternative being taking Tzedaka).

  • #814550

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “A woman’s place is defined in the Torah and commentaries. It is at home, not at work.”

    Please quote one.

  • #814551

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “A woman’s place is at home.”

    I wonder what every female who teaches in every pre school, elementary school, high school and seminary has to say about this? Once we have their response, we can then ask every married woman who works in a Yeshiva office what their reply is. We can then ask every Yeshiva administrator who employs married women in his yeshiva office what their answer is, or perhaps we can ask the Roshei Yeshiva of these very same yeshivos what their reply is.

  • #814552

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “gavra, the position you attribute to the RY of Lakewood is incorrect.”

    I would have to assume the Roshei Yeshiva Shlita of BMG have no issues with married women with small children working outside the home. They employ married women with small children in their own offices.

  • #814553

    shmoel
    Member

    Who cares wha the hamon hoam’s reply is? We know what Shulchan Aruch says. The fact their are extenuating circumstances that unfortunately make women leave their home, does not make it anywhere near the ideal.

  • #814554

    chanie
    Member

    Sam2: Chanie: Revisionist history at its best.

    Please explain why it is Revisionist history? My source is the Artscroll’s biography of the Chofetz Chaim. When the people from Radin discovered that the store belonged to the Chofetz Chaim they all shopped there. In order that the other shopkeepers shouldn’t lose out, once he made the money that he needed to survive for that day, he would have his wife close the store. In total his store was open for maybe 2-3 hours daily. All in all, his store was opened for maybe 5 years. I’m sorry if it doesn’t fit into your modern Hashkofos.

    Let’s see your sources.

  • #814555

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Please a) quote the shulchan aruch that is relevant here and b)apparently these extenuating circumstances are legitimate enough that despite whatever shulchan aruch you might quote Roshei Yeshiva are willing to not only look the other way, but actively employ these women for their own offices.

  • #814556

    Who cares wha the hamon hoam’s reply is? We know what Shulchan Aruch says. The fact their are extenuating circumstances that unfortunately make women leave their home, does not make it anywhere near the ideal.

    1: That is the first time I have heard the Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva called the “Hamon Am”. (I didn’t say it, he did 🙂

    2: Tuition IS an extenuating circumstance, being that your other option is taking Tzedaka (at the minimum).

  • #814557

    flowers
    Member

    There shouldn’t be female doctors, nurses, therapists, teachers, salesladies. All poffessions and all kinds of employment should be filled by men. Even women’s clothing stores should be run by men.

    And why limit it only to work? Grocery shopping should be done by men. They should even put their kids on the buses, because women cannot be out on the street. Doctors appointments, you guessed it. Men have to take care of that too. Shopping for clothing and shoe for women and children ought to be done by men too. Of course the women won’t need much clothing, since they will always be indoors. And oh, yes! what about simchas? Bar mitzvahs is no problem. It will be all male affair, but what about chasunahs?

    And oh, what an ideal world!! Your wife is depressed because she locked up inside the whole day? Just explain that this is the way the Torah wants and her disatisfaction is just the yetzer hara in the form of feminism.

  • #814558

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “When the people from Radin discovered that the store belonged to the Chofetz Chaim they all shopped there. In order that the other shopkeepers shouldn’t lose out, once he made the money that he needed to survive for that day, he would have his wife close the store. In total his store was open for maybe 2-3 hours daily. All in all, his store was opened for maybe 5 years. I’m sorry if it doesn’t fit into your modern Hashkofos.”

    From this citation is would appear that the Rebbetzin ran the store, not the CC himself. Was the Rebbetzin of the feminist bent that she held a job? What was she doing outside the home?

  • #814559

    shmoel
    Member

    gavra: does SA say not to take tzedaka? SA says they shouldn’t go out the house much. It’s obvious from SA to rather take tzedaka than go out.

    apy: The CC’s store was in the back of his house. She didn’t have to go out. And the SA is 73:1.

  • #814560

    Toi
    Member

    i think the key in this argument is how we define staying in the home. the people being sarcastic and taking issue are those who would wish we would define it as literally nev er leaving the home. take a lok at the Gaon’s letter to his wife- spooky. i think the yeshivish elelments here and the OP arent defining it as above, rather that a womans focus should be her homelife. the flipside of this is a woman whose main and central focus is her career. in which case her career comes before her husband, children, domestic duties (ouch! i said it), and raising a family. a woman can teach in a frum school and still be in the category to be defined as “in the home”. a woman who works fourteen hours as a partner on wall stret probably cannot. therein lies the miscommunication.

  • #814562

    chanie
    Member

    apushatayid: Your right! I can’t answer your question as I do not know the parameters of how a ????, especially one of the stature of a ??? ???? paskens. The wife of the ???? ??? ran a business as well. However I think it very disrespectful to label these holy women feminist.

  • #814563

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I’m not labeling them feminists. That’s my point.


    The store was in back of his home and people didn’t realize the store belonged to the CC? Did he go into the real estate business?

    I guess I’ll chalk it up to a kasha af a maaseh.

    A school principle is also a “career woman”.

  • #814564

    chanie
    Member

    The store was not located within the confines of his small home. No, he wasn’t in the real estate business, he rented the property ?. The people of Radin DID know that he and his wife owned the store, and that is why people flocked to his store, in order of hoping to catch a glimpse of him. A ????? ?????? ????.

  • #814565

    Sam2
    Member

    Chanie: I don’t know what here did or did not fit with my “modern Hashkafas”. All I know is that it is far from true that the Chofetz Chaim only entered his store to check the weights.

  • #814566

    chanie
    Member

    Sam2: All I know is that it is far from true that the Chofetz Chaim only entered his store to check the weights.

    I brought down my source, you can’t. “All I know” is not an answer. Which leaves me with one conclusion. You made it up!

    End of subject!

  • #814567

    Toi
    Member

    apushit- not if her focus is her house and family. i mean to contrast the outlook of these two types; whats their focus in life. not what osition they hold. i posit that a wall street career woman is more likely to give priority to her job than a BY principal.

  • #814569

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Actually I also heard the story that the Chofetz Chaim’s wife ran the store and when the entire community heard who ran that store they all wanted to shop there and he had it only opened for as much time as needed for his basic living expenses

  • #814570

    jewish22
    Member

    i really think that its very true what u wrote about the women choose this way.

    im not going to say they have much options because there are some things thats belong to the women and there are some things that belong to the man but yes women can choose a lot of things in life they can choose to have a good and enjoyable life as well even they really do have hard work as matter of fact men also have hard work but somehow they dont mind giving themselfs a good time sometimes.

    im sure if u would tell your husband that u treated yourself to something and u had a good time he would only be more then happy to hear and even understand u if some things where not done because of this if they will be done we dont have to work 24/7 but we have to do our work

  • #814571

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    This thread is entertaining.

  • #814572

    soliek
    Member

    SJS! long time no pixel! howyabin?! i thought youd enjoy this thread 😛

  • #814573

    Sam2
    Member

    Chanie: There are many stories told both secondhand and by those who met him about times when they bought stuff directly from him in the shop. And ArtScroll Gedolim books are not a source. They are amazing compendia of inspiring and uplifting stories, not historical facts.

  • #814574

    apushatayid
    Participant

    TOI. “wall street women” may very well be committed to a career. It does not mean they are not committed to their family. People juggle many commitments quite successfully. My main objection to the OP (or her friend) is the very broad brush used to swipe whole groups of people with one quick stroke. i dont understand how “they”. why dont “those who”…

    The newest volume of Igros Moshe has an interesting teshuva about Touro College for Women. It is the every last teshuva in the hashkafa section (right before the teshuvos of his brother R’ Mordechai Z’l). Lest I be accused of misquoting or misinterpreting, I suggest the OP (and her friend) read it for themselves.

  • #814575

    chanie
    Member

    Sam2: In theory you are correct. As someone who is privy to the inner workings of Artscroll, I can tell you with certainty that when they come out with a biography of someone, they will only print stories about that person that is historically true. My husband knew 2 Gedolim who are no longer alive who learned by the Chofetz Chaim and/or Rav Elchonon Wasserman, and were there ???? ????, and they in turn told their son’s the stories, or confirmed their veracity. In fact, when “The Vilna Gaon” came out years ago, I personally spoke to the author and asked if all the stories are factual. He replied, “I only print material that is verifiable through either Seforim on him, or stories that were handed down from his talmidim though today”. He continued, “If I were to write all the unverifiable stories, and legends, the book would have 3 times the pages”!

    I will tell you a story that my father in law tells about the time in the late 1950’s when he learnt in Bais Medrash Elyon.

    There was a friendly argument between the Litvishe and Chasidishe bochrim on which is the more choshuv aliya, ????? or ???. They decided to ask a grandson of the Chofetz Chaim who learned there which aliya his grandfather took. After much deliberation he said I think ?????. The Litvishe were estatic until one Chasidishe bochur asked; “Wasn’t your grandfather a ???”?

    Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, and can believe what they wish. It’s not one of the Rambam’s ???? ??? ?????.

    A ????? ?????? ????

  • #814576

    shmoel
    Member

    Artscroll is one of the foremost compilations of historical facts in the Jewish world.

  • #814577

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Ive read Art Scroll Biographies and regular biographies and the art scroll are not written in the same way. There may be historical license as opposed to fact with them.

    Pretty much all say the same………..

    At 3 years old when everyone else was learning Alef Bais, the Gadol had already finished Chumash

    At 10 years old everyone saw the Gadol was an Iluy and he finished SHAS for the first times

    At 13 years old the Rosh Yehsiva gave the gadol Semicha and learned Chavursa with him and at 18, the Rosh Yeshiva gave the gadol his daughter for marriage.

  • #814578

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ive read Art Scroll Biographies and regular biographies

    By which you mean, you’ve read artscroll biographies, and The Making of a Gadol.

  • #814579

    chanie
    Member

    zahavasdad;

    Not to worry. If and when they write your biography they will not say…..

    At 3 years old when everyone else was learning Alef Bais, Zahavasdad had already finished Chumash

    At 10 years old everyone saw the Zahavasdad was an Iluy and he finished SHAS for the first times

    At 13 years old the Rosh Yehsiva gave the Zahavasdad Semicha and learned Chavursa with him and at 18, the Rosh Yeshiva gave the Zahavasdad his daughter for marriage.

    In all seriousness, my husbands Rosh Yeshiva once gave a schmuess and he stated that he is not impress by this one or that one who was born with a photographic memory and accomplished such and such. What made an impression on him was a masmid of average intelligence who worked his way up to becoming a Godol in Torah and middos.

  • #814580

    Toi
    Member

    apushita- im giving a mashal. i think you understood that. i also think you understand my point.

  • #814581

    Health
    Participant

    soliek -“she shouldnt…her husband should either get a job…or make arrangements”

    Most Naarish a thing I ever heard. Let’s say the husband gets a job and they still can’t make ends meet? Of course the woman should work. If you said she should preferably work from in the house as opposed to working in the street, this I would agree. But you said she shouldn’t work at all. This is K’neged Chazal whom in many places say a woman is Mechuyav to work. Do you know the definition of Masay Yodeha? They even say she is Mechuyav to work, even if the family doesn’t need the money because of Batolla Mayve L’yehday Shemum! In this case she can do some minor work at home. Having to work in the street is not a Patur to not work at all, if she can’t do a Parnossa from the home.

  • #814582

    i think the yeshivish elelments here and the OP arent defining it as above, rather that a womans focus should be her homelife. the flipside of this is a woman whose main and central focus is her career.

    Nothing doing. shmoel is certainly talking about staying at home, and neither the husband OR wife should have their “focus” on work.

  • #814583

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “It’s obvious from SA to rather take tzedaka than go out.”

    This is implied in 73:1?

    73:6 (Siman Vav) clearly contradicts this. Of course a woman has a right to be mochel any “rights” guaranteed by her kesuba, and I suppose the children can be mochel whatever support the father is obligated in too, but the question then becomes, should the wife/mother become the breadwinner (which 73:1 comment of the Tur surely would not be happy with, I think) or should the family rely on tzedaka? You have paskened take tzedaka. What is your source for this psak?

  • #814584

    “It’s obvious from SA to rather take tzedaka than go out.”

    I took this as a Moshe Rose statement, and the author did not really mean it.

    An “Argument from ignorance”.

  • #814585

    shmoel
    Member

    There is nothing in SA that says 73:1’s admonitions for her to not go outside (Rambam says once or twice a month is good but SA just says not too much) becomes inapplicable if she otherwise will accept tzedaka.

  • #814586

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I’m surprised the “moshe rose like” commenter didn’t jump all over the statement of the SA regarding “Redid” and advocate burqas for all frum women 🙂

  • #814587

    Health
    Participant

    shmoel -“becomes inapplicable if she otherwise will accept tzedaka.”

    “It’s obvious from SA to rather take tzedaka than go out.”

    Stop with the mind playing. There is a big difference between willing to take Tzedaka and having to take Tzedaka in order not to go out. Why can’t you just admit your first statement is wrong?

  • #814588

    apushatayid
    Participant

    These are the relevant words of the Tur in Siman Ayin Gimmel. Just prior to these words he is discussing what the husband is obligated to give his wife (clothing, household needs) and then discusses the difference betwene an ani and ashir. He then writes why it is important for his wife to have the appropriate attire to go out (I hope the copy and paste comes out clean and readable)….

    (??? ????

    ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????

    ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????????? ??????

    ??? ????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???

    ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? W ??? ??? ??? ???? ????

    ???? ??? ???????(??) ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??????

    ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????

    ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????:

    I am not a posek by any stretch of the imagination. How to practically understand the words of the Tur, consult your Rav. On the one hand he says clearly there are legitimate needs for a woman to go out and even makes the statement she is not in prison, yet he continues that she should not be accustomed to going out often. The nosei keilim (both the Prisha and Beis Yosef) attribute the comments of the Tur to various midrashim and perhaps gemaras as well (its not clear to me).

  • #814589

    Stamper
    Member

    The Rambam also writes she shouldn’t be a prisoner in her home. Therefore, writes the Rambam, her husband should allow her to visit her father, etc. once or twice a month. Like gavra wrote, the halacha is based on Kol Kevuda Bas Melech Penima.

  • #814590

    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    I don’t understand the question?

    A Woman’s Place in Frum Society is in a kosher kitchen, of course!!!

    It doesn’t have to have a Pareve section, that is Lifnim M’shuras Hadin! Now that’s settled, any other questions?

  • #814591

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The question is not one of “why”, rather one of practical application.

Viewing 92 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to RSS Feed For This Article