about the protest in yerushalaim

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  • #1249398
    Bramo
    Participant

    i dont see why the yeshiva world keeps on putting on the website news and videos about the protests for anyone outside eretz yisrael its not nogaia to them and by putting these things on you cause so many people to look at it and comment about it and speak bad about gedolim who are we to get involved i am not saying that what they are doing is correct but before we speak against gedolim we sholud know exactly what they say

    #1249500
    Chortkov
    Participant

    but before we speak against gedolim we sholud know exactly what they say

    We should not speak against Gedoilim, period. You definitely shouldn’t if you don’t know what they say, but you may not talk against a Godol ever.

    The ื“ื™ืŸ of a ืžื›ื—ื™ืฉ ืžื’ื™ื“ื™ื” is ืžื•ืจื™ื“ื™ืŸ ื•ืœื ืžืขืœื™ืŸ. Be careful.

    #1249529
    Bramo
    Participant

    yekke2 yes you are correct i meant to the people that think that they can because they hold of gedolim that are not pro so they think they can say what they want though even then we have no right to take sides and say this one is better

    #1249539
    bklynmom
    Participant

    Protests in Yerushalayim affects Jews in America who are traveling to Israel & have single and married children living there.

    #1249540
    MTAB
    Participant

    it’s a kind of lashon hara news for the people who are outraged by this. Lashon news is anything that really doesn’t matter but still generates bad feelings towards others. it sells papers

    however, i believe these protests are a kiddush hashem. The gvt doesn’t need charedim in the army and the draft is an attempt to eradicated torah.

    #1249565
    bk613
    Participant

    “however, i believe these protests are a kiddush hashem. The gvt doesnโ€™t need charedim in the army and the draft is an attempt to eradicated torah”

    The government is offering them deferments they simply refuse to get one. Please explain why the gov is at fault. All they need to do is go to an office fill out papers and they get a deferment. These people refuse to follow simple instructions and instead go out into the streets and ruin other peoples days. How is this a kiddush hashem??

    #1249570
    ๐Ÿ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    YWN is a news website, which means that it is their job to report news.

    #1249574
    takahmamash
    Participant

    Bramo, we have punctuation marks when writing in the English language called commas and periods. We also have a concept of using upper-case letters at the beginning of sentences. Please use these so your comments will be clearly understood by all. Thank you and chag samayach.

    #1249586
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Bramo and Yekke2 – +1,000!

    MTAB – whether they are in fact a Kiddush Hashem or not (I don’t know enough to comment on that), the way they are being reported is a Chillul Hashem.

    bklynmom – that doesn’t make it permissible for it to be publicized this way.

    bk613 – they hold that the government shouldn’t be drafting them in the first place. The government is certainly not acting correctly. The army is not run according to halacha. It should not be run that way in the first place, and certainly, those Jews who do follow halacha should not be drafted. No Gedolim disagree on those points, to my knowledge. As far as I know everyone agrees that the government is acting incorrectly; the only disagreement is regarding what our response should be.

    I am not discussing whether or not we should judge them favorably since perhaps they are tinok shenishba, etc. I don’t want to get into that. I am not judging them – I am simply judging their actions. Their actions are clearly wrong.

    #1249587
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    RebYidd: –
    1. the fact that they are a news website does not make it permissible for them to write Loshon Hora or things that cause a Chillul Hashem. According to halacha, it is assur to write loshon hora in the newspapers.

    2. Even if it is okay in certain circumstances to report news, the news should be reported factually and not with negative subjective comments/descriptions. This is especially true if one is writing about something that will cause a chillul Hashem and lead people to think negatively of Am Yisrael/Chareidim/Gedolim.

    #1249590
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In todays society with almost everyone having a smartphone with a video camera. Its not very hard for someone to video some of the protests, Post the video online and send the link to a news service.

    Some of those news sources are very anti-torah and will use this news against the torah community as a whole.

    Better to show this news on a torah site for people to read it there than read it on an anti-torah site.

    You cannot expect news to be censored anymore. You cannot cover up things easily anymore

    #1249662
    bk613
    Participant

    How is the gov acting inappropriately? There is a national draft. The gov allows people who are in yeshiva ( or at least claim they are) to get a deferment. There needs to be some form of a system where the gov can keep record of everyone, otherwise no one would show up.
    I agree that the army/gov isn’t run according to halacha, but that is completely irrelevant. The last time the U.S. had a draft even those who were exempt still needed to fill out papers.

    #1249729
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I wonder what percentage of those out protesting since Rosh chodesh are chutzniks with nothing better to do. An exciting day at the hafgana is way better than helping wherever you may be for the chag prepare.

    #1249733
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Lilmod, it seems that you avoided commenting on the riots by claiming a lack of knowledge.
    However, lack of knowledge didn’t stop you from being motzei shem ra on the government.
    The government does not draft chariedim. They do require them to register, whereupon they get an automatic exemption. The same applies, for example in the US. During the Vietnam Nam War, everyone had to register, and then apply for a 4D religious deferment.
    The riots going on in Israel is because they refuse to register, which technically makes them draft dodgers and subject to arrest.
    That is what makes this so frustrating. This “problem” goes away if, like all other yeshivas, they simply registered

    #1249738
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD – even if what you are writing is true (which I’m not sure about, and a sheilah should certainly be asked), the way it was reported is problematic. For example, the headline, “Peleg enjoying Bein Hazmanim shutting roads down” was completely inappropriate!

    What right do they have to say that they are enjoying it? Who says that they are not seriously distressed over the possibility of yiddishe kinder being forced or pressurred to stop being Frum and that they are not acting l’sheim Shamayim and following a Gadol who is their Rav? They are not doing this out of enjoyment, but rather out of distress and out of a desire to follow Daas Torah. You can disagree if you like, but you don’t have a right to criticize their motives and defame them that way!

    One of the many conditions of lashon hora l’toeles is that you are not allowed to leave out information that would minimize the severity of the person’s actions.

    If what you are writing is true, that would only be the case if they made sure to write the article in such a way that it explains why they are doing this and what other Gedolim say and why others disagree (but in a respectful intellectual fashion, not a negative name-calling one).

    #1249740
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    bk613- I already explained how the government is acting inappropriately. The fact that the army/government isn’t run according to halacha is NOT irrelevant at all – that IS the point!

    Israel is not the US – the Israeli government is a Jewish government. We get our ideas of right and wrong from the Torah, and not from the goyim.

    “There is a national draft.”

    That IS the point. They were not allowed to make that draft in the first place. They did not ask a sheila about it, and as far as I know, no Gadol told them that they were allowed to make it.

    Additionally, at one point, they made laws getting rid of the Yeshiva deferment, and they can do so again. I believe that is part of the concern here – that those bochurim who get deferments will be in the system and they can then draft them in the future if they change the law again.

    #1249794
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD – another point: many people do NOT own smartphones and do not view goyish news sites. For many people, this IS their only source of news. Personally, I fall in that category, and I only know about these demonstations from YWN. And yes, I live in Eretz Yisrael, and yet, I would have known nothing about this if not for YWN!!! (which goes to show that it may not be so necessary even for Jews in EY to know about this).

    #1249803
    Avi K
    Participant

    Bramo, so why post news about Chutz laAretz? They do not interest those of us who live in Israel. In any case, there is no issue of lashon hara or chillul Hashem as, as ZD stataed, reports are all over the media.

    Yekke, is reporting what a gadol says (leaving aside the question of who is a gadol)lashon hara as regards those who have difficulties with the statements/follow other gedolim?

    #1249841
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    lesschumras – I’m sorry, but I think that you are the one lacking knowledge here. I have been living in Eretz Yisrael for nearly 3 decades so I am fairly familiar with the way the government and army work. All boys and girls who are Israeli citizens get drafted when they are 18.

    If they have a reason for exemption or deferment, they have to obtain an exemption or a deferment. Yeshiva Bochurim get a deferment, not an exemption, and they have to go back each year to reregister until a certain age at which point they are exempt. During the years of the deferment, they are still subjagated to the army (since it’s a deferment and not an exemption), which means, for example, that they can not leave the country unless they request and obtain permission from the army/government, and even then, they can only leave for a set amount of time.

    If I am incorrect about anything I wrote, it was semantics and irrelevant. It is possible that I was wrong in using the terminology “drafted”. I don’t think that I was, but if I was, it does not take away from anything I wrote in my above posts.

    I just reread your post, and if what you wrote was correct, then I certainly did not err even regarding semantics. You yourself wrote that they would be considered “draft dodgers” if they didn’t register. That was precisely my point – that they are drafted unless they register. That is against halacha. According to halacha, no Jewish boy should be drafted into an army that does not keep halacha. That is assur. And by the way, this is true regardless of whether or not they are capable of learning full-time for many years.

    #1249832
    mw13
    Participant

    Yekke2:
    you may not talk against a Godol ever.
    The ื“ื™ืŸ of a ืžื›ื—ื™ืฉ ืžื’ื™ื“ื™ื” is ืžื•ืจื™ื“ื™ืŸ ื•ืœื ืžืขืœื™ืŸ. Be careful.

    Agreed. But I will point out that is a difference between claiming to be of the standing to decide a machlokes between the Gedolim, and deciding what one should do li’maaseh. For example, it would be absolutely ludicrous for me to say that I think R’ Shteinman and R’ Chaim are right and R’ Shmuel is wrong – I do not reach the toes of these giants to be able to be ื™ื•ืจื“ ืœืกื•ืฃ ื“ืขืชื, forget about being able to definitively rule who is correct.

    However, if I was living in Israel, I would have to decide between two very different options:
    1) report to the draft office, receive a deferment, and go back to learning; or
    2) go protest in the streets.

    Just out of curiosity, how would you go about making that decision?

    (Admittedly, this is more of a response to the sentiments that you and others expressed in the previous, now closed thread on this subject than to anything you have said here.)

    #1249850
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “However, if I was living in Israel, I would have to decide between two very different options:
    1) report to the draft office, receive a deferment, and go back to learning; or
    2) go protest in the streets.”

    Just curious. Why isnt there a 3rd option. Listen to “your” Rosh Yeshiva and dont register, get arrested if/when the army shows up. So far, to my (admittedly not the best informed) knowledge Nobody has said to go out into the streets, block traffic, burn garbage and engage in physical violence against the police and others. Civil disobedience is certainly common, but, at a certain point, the government must intervene when it creates hardship for many people.

    #1249861
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Apushatayid – Do you know whether or not anyone has said that demonstrations should be held? From the previous posts in this thread, it sounded like the other posters were assuming or knew that they had.

    #1249827
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    LU

    many people look to this website (YWN) for the torah view on news, Many arent even religious. It is well known

    Maybe YWN is your only news source and you dont want to read it, but others are reading here and other news sources and want to know what is going on.

    if a person is going to get their news from R’L Haaretz and their Anti-frum slant, wouldnt you also want them to get their news from the frum point of view

    #1249873
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Lilmod, not registering is viewed as an attempt to dodge the draft. Registration and being drafted are not the same and are not just semantics. Everyone registers at 18, not everyone gets drafted. I registered for the US selective service, but was not drafted.

    I’m curious as when the actions of the government became subject to the approval of the gedolim. Israel is not a theocracy and never claimed to be bound by halacha. The gedolim have a right to object and not register. There is no right to riot and to object to the arrests that result.

    #1249892
    mw13
    Participant

    Israel is not a theocracy and never claimed to be bound by halacha.

    LOL, so if I never claim to be law-abiding citizen, am I not bound by the law?

    There is no opt-in or opt-out on God’s Laws. Everyone must keep them, regardless of what they “claim”.

    #1249906
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    MW13 – +1. thank you.

    #1249920
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You cannot have a halachic state at this time, Without a Sanhedrin it wouldnt work.

    if Gadol A says something is mutar and Gadol B says Assur, whom do you follow. What is the law?

    #1249905
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “many people look to this website (YWN) for the torah view on news, Many arent even religious. It is well known”

    That only emphasizes my point. I was actually going to bring up that point – thank you for doing so for me.

    You wrote earlier that even if it’s Loshon Hora/Motzi Shem Ra/mevazeh Gedolim, since people are reading about this in anti-religious sources, they may as well read about here. One of the arguments I was going to make against that was that it’s worse when they read it here, since they assume this is the Torah perspective, and it can lead to an even bigger chilul Hashem and Sinas Chinam against the Frum world. At least when they read the other newspapers, they realize that is the opinion of anti-Frum people.

    “if a person is going to get their news from Rโ€™L Haaretz and their Anti-frum slant, wouldnt you also want them to get their news from the frum point of view”

    Now you are saying something else. Yes, if the articles were written from a Frum point of view, you might be correct (although one should ask a sheilah). This is exactly what I wrote above:

    about the protest in yerushalaim

    I’m still not certain that it would be allowed, and there are many conditions of toeles that must be fulfilled, but it would certainful be very, very, different if it were done in this way.

    #1249912
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Yekke, is reporting what a gadol says (leaving aside the question of who is a gadol)lashon hara as regards those who have difficulties with the statements/follow other gedolim?

    [I don’t profess to know Hilchos Loshon Horo properly, but my answer would be:] No, it’s not Loshon Horo. Like it is not ma’aras ayin to do something halachically permissible just because others who don’t know Halacha think it is assur. As long as it is presented without any additions which display negative opinions of the reporter. If you say it in a way that shows your contempt, that is loshon horo. Not because of the information repeated, but because of the opinion conveyed.

    #1249914
    bk613
    Participant

    Israel is not the US โ€“ the Israeli government is a Jewish government. We get our ideas of right and wrong from the Torah, and not from the goyim.

    Please tell you don’t actually believe the Israeli government is run according to Halacha. The only Jewish thing about it is the fact that most of the people in it are Jewish and they literally don’t care about Halacha.

    If you choose to live in Israel you are bound by its laws

    #1249919
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    lesschumras- mw13 answered the second point very well.

    Regarding the first point, I have already addressed this twice, but in case I wasn’t clear, I will try to explain for a third time. Israel is different than the US. In the US, there is not a national draft, and everyone is not drafted. In Israel, the law is that EVERYONE is required to go to the army unless they receive a deferment or an exemption. They have to apply for a deferment or an exemption in order to get out of going to the army. This is against halacha since they shouldn’t be required to go to the army in the first place and therefore shouldn’t have to request a deferment or an exemption from something they are not allowed to do in the first place.

    It has always bothered me that girls (for whom it would be assur to go to the army no matter how the army is run) are required to apply for an exemption to the army based on RELIGIOUS reasons. Like, hello, we all have the same religion!!! They should not have get an exemption based on their religion if the government is a Jewish government!!! They should not be drafted in the first place and neither should boys. Both are assur!!! They should not need an exemption or a deferment for something that is assur and shouldn’t be a consideration.

    Whether or not they are specifically told by the army that they are being drafted before they get the exemption or deferment is irrelevant because either way they know that they are and that they need to register in order to receive the deferment (which again is not an exemption). But in any case, I just realized that I know that they are. When my brother was 18, he was drafted by the army, and given 48 hours (it’s possible they extended it to 72, but it wasn’t more than that) to decide if he wanted to go or not.

    And again, I think the main issue that Peleg is concerned about is the fact that the government did make a law removing army deferments and by registering, they are in danger of actually being drafted to the army (w/o a deferment) if the law is changed again.

    Again, I am not talking about what the response should be. For that, one must ask a sheilah. I am also not judging the government. But the fact is that they are doing something assur, and one’s disagreement with Peleg should not blind one to the fact that the government is doing something wrong. People are so quick to judge other Frum Jews for the way they deal with a secular government that they forget that being a secular government in the first place is a bigger problem.

    If you want to be “dan l’kaf zchus” the government (in the sense that they are confused and don’t realize this is a problem) that is wonderful, but don’t let that blind you to the fact that their actions are wrong.

    And why not use the same “dan l’kaf zchus” powers towards Peleg as well? Aren’t they also Jews and don’t they also deserve to be judged favorably as well as a secular government that passes laws against the Torah?

    #1249921
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Since I know the whole world is just waiting my psak… I’ll throw in my 1.005 cents..

    No one has a right to cause inconvenience to one because of a dispute to another. PERIOD. Blocking innocent people from going where they want/ must go, is wrong. Dead wrong. Makes no difference who’s right or who’s wrong, your conflict is with the government, NOT the innocents waiting to get by. We pasken ืืกื•ืจ ืœื”ืฆื™ืœ ื‘ืžืžื•ืŸ ื—ื‘ื™ืจื•, certainly ืืกื•ืจ ืœื”ื–ื™ืง ื—ื‘ื™ืจื• – FOR ITS SAKE. That’s the method of terrorists, not anyone ืืฉืจ ื‘ืฉื ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื™ื›ื•ื ื”.

    And if I’d be the driver I’d continue, ever so slowly, but steadily. It’s a place for cars, people don’t belong there. If one gets injured or worse, it’s his fault – as every yeshiva boy knows – ืฉื”ื™ื” ืœื• ืœื‘ืจื•ื—. Opps where talking here about a ื‘ืจ ื“ืขืช, an Eved… maybe…

    #1249927
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “There is no opt-in or opt-out on Godโ€™s Laws.”

    That is not the discussion here. What is under discussion is whether or not registering with the government and declaring that one is a full time Yeshiva student violates Hashems law in some way. One Rosh Yeshiva maintains it does, numerous others do not. Those who follow the rosh Yeshiva who says it is, the follow up discussion HERE is, is the massive disturbance to every day life allowed, suggested or recommended under Hashems law as well? Again and again, people have asked, did the Rosh Yeshiva tell his talmidim to go out in the streets and cause mayhem?

    #1249954
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The issue of Draft deferments is not new and unfortunatly it is one of the reasons there are many non-religous people and people against gedolim

    In the Alter Heim there was a mandatory draft for jews and it was based on communities rather than people. Each community had to give a certain number of young jewish boys to the Russian Army or else.

    What wound up happening is boys without Proteskzia mainly poor orphans were the ones going, the Rich were able to pay a fee not to draft their sons and the Yeshiva Bochrim also got deferments . The Poor Orphans had noone to protect them and they were forced to go

    #1249936
    Chortkov
    Participant

    @MW13:However, if I was living in Israel, I would have to decide between two very different options:
    1) report to the draft office, receive a deferment, and go back to learning; or
    2) go protest in the streets.

    Just out of curiosity, how would you go about making that decision?

    I’ve never actually thought about it; to me, it’s always been an issue of not getting involved when Gedolim are fighting.

    What would I actually do? I would ask my Rav shlit”a and my Rosh Yeshiva shlit”a, and follow their advice. I’m quite positive they would tell me to report and receive a deferment.

    Option 2, which is “Go protest in the streets”, is something my Rebbes are extremely against – not necessarily because of the anti-violence sentiments expressed above, but for a totally different reason.

    The Brisker Rav famously said that the Zionists are ื—ืฉื•ื“ ืขืœ ืจืฆื™ื—ื”. By extension, going to a public demonstration and declaring yourself an Anti-Zionist is Assur because of Pikuach Nefesh. You may think this is taking it a little far? Let me tell you a story. I heard this from R’ Zelig Weinberg shlit”a who heard it from Dayan Grossnass, who heard it from R’ Boruch Be’er Lebovitz direct (I can’t remember if Dayan Grossnass witnessed it or if he heard it from R’ B”B):

    R’ Boruch Be’er was by a function, where they began singing Hatikva. All rose to pay tribute to the wonderful State. R’ Boruch Be’er also rose, and then sat down in the middle. They asked him why he stood up at all. He replied that although he obviously didn’t hold of the Zionist regime and would not rise to respect them, he stood up in accordance with the Brisker Rav – if they are ื—ืฉื•ื“ ืขืœ ืจืฆื™ื—ื”, then making a ืžื—ืื” would be considered ืกื›ื ืช ื ืคืฉื•ืช. He therefore stood up.

    The reason he subsequently sat down is because he remembered something R’ Chaim had told him: HaTikva (and the Zionist ideology it represents) is ืื‘ื•ื–ืจื™ื™ื”ื• ื“ืขื‘ื•ื“ื” ื–ืจื”. Accordingly, standing for it would be considered ื™ื”ืจื•ื’ ื•ืืœ ื™ืขื‘ื•ืจ, and R’ Boruch Be’er was willing to place himself into Sakanah rather than show support.

    (The Rosh Yeshiva of Gateshead – R’ Avrohom Gurvitz shlit”a – told me that he was by a dinner in Newcastle when the band began playing Hatikva, and the Gateshead Kollel representatives were unsure of whether to show their contempt or not. They asked R’ Dessler zt”l, who was sitting there, and he told them that because it was only the tune and not the words, they didn’t need to actively make a ืžื—ืื”.)

    Unfortunately, I am self admitted not on the level to be a proper ืžืงื‘ืœ from my Rebbes; I don’t feel a ืคื—ื“ ืžื•ืช when I walk past a Zionist policeman. My limited intellect does not fully understand the psak of the Brisker Rav. But a nevertheless try my best to follow the psak.

    I have seen firsthand those who do take the Brisker Rav literally. My Yeshiva is right by Kikar Shabbos, and when there was a large [peaceful] demonstration on Shabbos afternoon, the police marched right past the yeshiva. I saw one of the Brisker Rav’s grandchildren leaving yeshiva, and when he saw the police, he grabbed his children and ran in the other direction, with an expression of pure panic on his face.

    #1249958
    Avi K
    Participant

    Lilmod,
    1. Who says that they are not allowed to have a draft? On the contrary, it is a Torah obligation to join the IDF Rambam Hilchot Melachim (5:1-2 and 7:4).
    2. The fact of the matter is that while there is room for improvement most aspects of the government ARE run according to Halacha. All public institutions are certified kosher. The IDF does not allow any chametz on bases during Pesach (tough on Druze, Bedouin and Circassian soldiers). All state-owned chametz is sold to a goy. All but essential government offices are closed on Jewish holidays including Chol HaMoed. Halacha has a quasi-constitutional (instead of a constitution Israel has a series of “basic laws”. I could go on and on but there are space limitations.

    #1249962
    Avi K
    Participant

    Apushatayid, suppose Rav Alef approves of the protests and Rav Bet says that they are assur. Suppose now that a police officer who follows Rav Bet arrests a protester who follows Rav Alef. Are they both right?

    #1249986
    mw13
    Participant

    Avi K:
    it is a Torah obligation to join the IDF

    It never ceases to amaze me how you can just keep repeating thoroughly debunked claims.

    Attention Avi K (OK, and everyone else)

    #1249975
    apushatayid
    Participant

    AviK. does protest = break the law? Are peaceful protests against the law? You are confusing several things, and quite frankly I believe you are confusing what I was trying to say. to avoid further confusion, I’m going to wait a bit to see where this goes.

    #1250002
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is no written constitution in Israel (unlike the US) and there is no “right to protest”, Rights in Israel are based on an implicit constitution like in the UK

    #1250011
    mw13
    Participant

    yekke2:
    The Brisker Rav famously said that the Zionists are ื—ืฉื•ื“ ืขืœ ืจืฆื™ื—ื”

    True. And it’s always been a theory of mine that he took this position due to the DeHaan assassination. But still, it’s a big chiddush to say that we have to suspect every Israeli policeman is out to kill us. Perhaps this is li’shitasso that due to pikuach nefesh concerns we shouldn’t fast on fast days, a position not held by any of the other Poskim.

    #1250730
    zaltzvasser
    Participant

    Threads like this cause avak lashon hara and real lashon hara, too. There is absolutely no toeles to this thread and I think it should be closed immediately.

    #1250720
    Bramo
    Participant

    The IDF is not the army that the Rambam wrote about and since the government was made to go against us plus everything in the army there is no way we can join. About the protests i dont think that many bucharim from chutz leretz are there as most of them who stay over peasach go touring and i dont think they have the guts to sit down in front of a car

    #1250618
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Lilmod, if you read my posts, you’d see that I registered during the Vietnam War, when there was an active draft.
    You keep conflating registration with being drafted and claiming it is assur. Do you realize that it is only one Rav who is creating the a problem? If registration is assur, how do you explain the past 40 years all the roshai yeshivas who allowed, and continue to allow, their students to register?

    #1250048
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Apashutayid – you missed what that statement was said in response to. It was not in response to a discussion about whether or not registering with the government violates Hashem’s laws.

    It was said as part of a discussion about whether or not the government is doing something wrong by having an army that does not run according to halacha. It had nothing to do with whether or not it’s okay to not register with the government.

    #1250050
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    bk613- no one said that the government is run according to halacha. What I said is that it is not run according to halacha and they are doing something wrong by having a government that is not run according to halacha.

    “If you choose to live in Israel you are bound by its laws”

    Sorry, but you can’t just make up halachos like that. According to many Poskim, you are not required to follow the laws of the State even when the laws in question are not against the Torah, and according to all Poskim, you are not allowed to follow the Medina’s laws when they go against the Torah.

    #1250051
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Avi: ” Who says that they are not allowed to have a draft? On the contrary, it is a Torah obligation to join the IDF Rambam Hilchot Melachim (5:1-2 and 7:4).”

    Having a draft for an army that is run according to the Torah might be okay. The problem is that the army is not run according to halacha so it is assur to draft people into an army that is not run according to halacha and in which they will be oiver on issurim.

    #1250056
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Avi k – when my brother was in the army, the chayalim in his unit/base used lachmaniot for the afikomen for the Pesach Seder. Fortunately, he had gotten off for leil haSeder, but they told him about it afterwards.

    There are tons of problems with tznius in the army. Chayalim have been forced to listen to kol isha, there are women soldiers and officers around, etc. Roshei Yeshivas in the Hesder world have complained about these issues many times and threatened to stop sending boys to the army.

    When my friend’s brother was in Nachal Chareidi, the army did many things that they weren’t supposed to such as having women officers on their base and sending foods that did not have the required hashgacha.

    Many boys stop being Frum in the army.

    There are definitely problems with the way the army is run. Again, I am not discussing what the response should be, but the army is definitely not run according to halacha.

    #1250058
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    AVi K: “Apushatayid, suppose Rav Alef approves of the protests and Rav Bet says that they are assur. Suppose now that a police officer who follows Rav Bet arrests a protester who follows Rav Alef. Are they both right?”

    That would depend on whether or not Rav Bet said that he is allowed to arrest the protester.

    #1250778

    To the OP: I closed the other thread. If you don’t like the topic or the contents, why in the world did you bring it back?

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