Pratim of Ad Delo Yoda

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  • #608285

    Chortkov
    Participant

    What are the different shittos about this?

    Do you know of any heterim to not get drunk (besides going to sleep)?

    What is the reason of this halocho? Isn’t the point of Purim to be happy but to celebrate the nes? If you are at the stage when you can’t remember what the Nes is all about, isn’t that defeating the purpose?

    #1062600

    rebdoniel
    Member

    Alcoholism and drunkenness are not looked upon favorably at all in Judaism.

    Enjoying the fruit of the vine is one thing; getting wasted is an aveira.

    #1062601

    Chortkov
    Participant

    You’ve given a perfectly exceptable opinion on the issue – although exactly which “AVEIRA” you are ???? by “getting wasted” I am not sure.

    But you haven’t answered the ???? ????? ??????!

    #1062602

    springbok007
    Participant

    i do not know what the limit is.lol….

    🙂

    #1062603

    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    we learnt today in skl that u shud get “high” and not “drunk”. u know the border urself. my halacha teacher sed the chofetz chaim holds that u can be yotzei if u drink a little (NOT drunk!!) then take a nap.. mayb look it up..

    #1062604

    The little I know
    Participant

    There are two ??????? I found for this, and it seems clear that they complement each other.

    1. ???? ???? ??????

    or

    2. ???? ???? ???????

    The second version seems more appropos to the choice of the root word here, which is clearly a reference to the absorbing of a fragrance, ?????. Without a doubt, this choice of wording is intended to address a higher level of achievement than the simple physical ingesting of wine. It also stands to reason that the first version is not a transitive verb, but rather a slightly shortened version of the second ?????. Regardless, the poskim have clearly noted that the word ?????? is not mentioned here altogether, and would have been used if that was the intention of the ?????.

    Thus, it becomes offensive when people argue that getting drunk is a “mitzvah”, when virtually every other reference in Torah is one that views intoxication as incompatible with kedusha. Drinking? Yes. Getting drunk? Absolutely no.

    And for those who consider their imbibing justified as being machmir, Rav Shteinman shlit”a just made a public statement against heavy drinking. Is Rav Shteinman big enough, since those who advocate shikrus have disposed of the Mishna Berura?

    #1062605

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    TPO: Your teacher was talking about boys, right? I was taught that getting drunk is only a man’s mitzva.

    #1062606

    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    ya.. i was a lil mad when he also sed that women arent halachicly allowed 2 get drunk.. mayb im being a lil femenist but thats rlly irking me.. girls arent even allowed 2 get high-not tznius cuz secrets come out bt guys have secrets too, no?? care 2 explain, anyone?

    #1062607

    WIY
    Member

    ThePurpleOne

    Its not tznius regardless of secrets. Ever see how girls act if they have had a little alcohol? Not very attractive…

    #1062608

    OneOfMany
    Member

    How is not being attractive not tzniusdik?

    #1062609

    Cheppe
    Member

    OP: Why are you looking for heteirim? The halacha is to get drunk. Unless someone is physically ill or unable to get drunk, he should get drunk on Purim until reaching the state of ad dlo yoda.

    Of course there are heterim like going to sleep, etc. (And, really, do you know anyone who didn’t get drunk that went to sleep on Purim day? Ah nechtinge tug. They don’t go to sleep Purim afternoon.) But why look for heteirim? Do the mitzvah as it should be done, as Klal Yisroel has done it for thousands of years, and how the vast majority of poskim have ruled over the centuries.

    L’Chaim!

    #1062610

    WIY
    Member

    oomany

    I mean that its very unattractive the way girls get when they have alcohol. Most girls get very loud and boisterous and say stupid silly things and act very “loose.”

    #1062611

    commonsense
    Participant

    Cheppe, because until someone knows when to stop drinking alcohol can be deadly. Boys that never drink and are let loose on Purim are at high risk! Let everyone be as makpid with every other mitzvah in the Torah including bain adom lechavairo and don’t worry so much how yenem is being mekayaim this one.

    #1062612

    OneOfMany
    Member

    (a) How does that differ from how girls usually are, and

    (b) How does it not being attractive make it not tzniusdik?

    #1062613

    WIY
    Member

    cheppe

    I think you just want people to get drunk because you enjoy the crude entertainment.

    #1062614

    squeak
    Participant

    Desire to not drink much, do you? Hmm? Hmm. Seek a heter then, you must. Yes, hmmm.

    Yoda teaches like drunkards drink.

    #1062615

    jbaldy22
    Member

    There are a wide range of shitos on the subject – if you look in the sefer tehila liyona on megillah he covers a lot of them in one place. It is somewhat dependent on how you understand the story in the gemarah there of rabba shactei lrav zeira and what the conclusion of the gemarah is. There are many reasons to get drunk on Purim al pi halacha and al pi sod. That being said follow your posek/rav as the number of opinions are too numerous to list here.

    #1062616

    Sam2
    Participant

    TLIK: See Rashi Megillah 7b s.v. Ibsum.

    Cheppe: (New Joseph?) That is definitely not what the majority of Poskim have held. Look into it a little. Most try to mitigate the drunkenness in one way or another.

    Definitely the signature style…

    #1062617

    ari-free
    Participant

    There are many more reasons to be makpid on benching after the seuda or davening Maariv after Purim with kavana

    #1062618

    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    ya purims even holier than yom kippur.. who wud think of getting drunk on yom kippur? and i dont think anyone gets entertained by dunk ppl.. theyr rlly scary!! theres always yehsiva guys throwing up in my house.. its gross..

    #1062619

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Going to sleep!? Baloney.

    #1062620

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Basing Halacha on Dikduk of a choice of words is a bit of a stretch. You do that when you feel desperate. When it just can’t be, and you want to find that somehow it doesn’t mean that. If the Gemara would use a funny word to smile to people nobody would be pinpointing how it doesn’t really mean smile; it only means Sever Panim Yafos.

    The Gemara earlier mentioned that when something is sweet you can take more that you thought possible. Perhaps that’s why we use that same term for drinking until Ad Delo Yada.

    #1062621

    Chortkov
    Participant

    OP: Why are you looking for heteirim? The halacha is to get drunk. Unless someone is physically ill or unable to get drunk, he should get drunk on Purim until reaching the state of ad dlo yoda.

    Because I agree with what I have heard bshem the Gedolim, that if one will not be able to control himself from doing anything wrong one should not drunk. Because I believe it when Hillel said ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????. Because I believe my Purim will be more focused towards HKB”H if I am sober. Because I don’t trust that I will be able to control what I say to people if I am drunk.

    #1062622

    Chortkov
    Participant

    we learnt today in skl that u shud get “high” and not “drunk”. u know the border urself. my halacha teacher sed the chofetz chaim holds that u can be yotzei if u drink a little (NOT drunk!!) then take a nap.. mayb look it up..

    I think that this is the ???? of the ??”?, although I am not certain. But then you do not need to get drunk; you are fine by sleeping (maybe under the influence of wine).

    #1062623

    simcha613
    Participant

    I heard that there are two ways of reading “ad delo yada.” Either it means that the chiyuv is to reach the point of ad delo yada. OR the chiyuv only exists until that point, but if you go beyond it, then it is too much. In other words, you are yotzei the chiyuv as long as you drink anywhere between more than usual and ad del yada. If you go beyond ad delo yada, then you have lost out.

    #1062624

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Cheppe:

    And, really, do you know anyone who didn’t get drunk that went to sleep on Purim day?

    Sure, the Rav of the shule where I grew up holds this way. He drinks wind then takes a nap on Purim. He learned this years ago as a bachur.

    #1062625

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    If drunkeness leads to leitzonus, l”h, nivul peh, hezik (throwing up in someone else’s house?), missing mincha or ma’ariv, etc. then that is NOT the intention of chaza”l.

    If drinking yayin, getting high, leads to a hiskarvus to Hashem, and you dig deep inside you (nichnas yayin yoitzeh soid) and bring out your inner-true feelings of love to Hashem, torah, and Klal Yisroel, THEN you have fulfilled your chiyuv.

    #1062626

    WIY
    Member

    squeak

    Drink until you are no longer Yoda .

    #1062628

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Gemara, saying Ad Delo Yoda Bein Arur Haman Leboruch Mordechai, implies that you don’t have to keep the reason for the Simcha in mind. This is how the Maharal learns, in Torah Ohr.

    #1062629

    Toi
    Participant

    ok, kler limaaseh in the chiyuv. is it a chiyuv to put oneself into a matziv of ad dilo yada, and the heychi timtza the rabanan were koveiah is shtiyas yayin, or is the etzem chiyuv the etzem shtiyah and the shiur ptur is ad dilo yada. i know the lashon is moreh like the second tzad, but its not muchach. i will admit im a little disappointed in myself for never thinking of this before.

    #1062630

    SaysMe
    Member

    cheppe- And, really, do you know anyone who didn’t get drunk that went to sleep on Purim day?

    i know a few actually.

    #1062631

    Ðash®
    Participant

    I interpert “Ad Delo Yoda” simularly to “Shivas Yamim Tochelu Matzos”.

    #1062632

    Cheppe
    Member

    SM: You miss the essential point. Most guys who don’t get drunk ad dlo yoda also do not take a Purim afternoon nap. Sure you may know someone who did go to sleep Purim afternoon, but I’m sure you also know many who did not.

    #1062633

    SaysMe
    Member

    cheppe- i meant i know a number of boys/men who drink just a little then go to sleep to fulfill their chiyuv.

    #1062634

    If you want to understand ad dlo yoda, and really if you want to understand what Purim is all about, you really have to read the hakdama of the Megillas S’tarim. It is the Nesivos’s peirush on the megila. The Nesivos!

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=24311&st=&pgnum=6

    #1062635

    No offense anyone – especially not the little i know, but rashi clearly transalates ?????? as ?????? ????. There may be different shitot, but rasji definitely remains the simple explanation.

    #1062636

    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    yekke2-

    my teacher sed chofetz chaim.. and he sed gotta drnk a lil first and napping alone isnt sufficient..

    #1062637

    Parshaman
    Member

    anyone who has seen alcohol used correctly wouldn’t be so against it. The way I was taught my Rabbeim was to daven vasikin, take care of mishloach manos, then learn until mincha and after that get drunk. This is what I have done the past three years witha few of my friends and weve actually been complimented on our Divrei Torah that weve given while drunk, it is also the only time I drink all year (besides Pesach). If more people did it this way the mitzvah of getting drunk on Purim wouldn’t be questioned as much

    #1062638

    Chortkov
    Participant

    I saw the ?? ????? says that it is ?? ??? ?? ????, which means that you can get drunk up to but not including Ad Delo Yoda. This makes more sense to me – meaning that there is a ???? to drink and get drunk, but there is a gvul that one shouldn’t forget the point of Purim.

    Purple – I think your teacher must have meant the ???? ????? (written by the Chafetz Chaim) who paskens like the Rm”a.

    See also the ????? ???? and ???? ????? by ????? ????? who say clearly that one should not get drunk if it will hinder his ????? ?’.

    I have also seen that the ?? which says ???? ????? ??????? brings immediately after a story about ??? and ? ???? who were having a ???? together, and ??? killed ? ???? accidentally. The ????? ????? (a ?????) explains that the ???? is saying that sometimes ??? ???? ?????? and it is not worth getting drunk.

    #1062639

    WIY
    Member

    Parshama

    Kudos to you for doing it right

    #1062640

    rebdoniel:

    True, alcohol is not usually suggested by Judaisim (although I wouldn’t go so far as to say that it’s “frowned upon”; that’s Christianity), but on Purim there is clearly a chiyuv to drink. THere are many shittos as to how to best be mekayem this this chiyuv, but you cannot just pretend that the chiyuv doesn’t exist.

    The little I know:

    Please explain how one would go about “smelling” wine until they do not know the difference between boruch Mordechai and uror haman.

    “Thus, it becomes offensive when people argue that getting drunk is a “mitzvah”… Drinking? Yes. Getting drunk? Absolutely no.”

    Seeing as the Gemora, Rambam, Tor, and Shulchan Oruch are all on the list of those who “offend” you, perhaps you should change your sensibilities. You cannot simply dismiss a very real and legitimate shitah, held by many prominent poskim, because you don’t like it.

    “Rav Shteinman shlit”a just made a public statement against heavy drinking.”

    Could you provide a link?

    “those who advocate shikrus have disposed of the Mishna Berura”

    …and instead, were machmir like the Shulchan Oruch. Again, please do not pretend that a halcahic shitah doesn’t exist just because you don’t like it.

    #1062641

    My rov in Yerushalayim who is a member of the Badatz of the Edah (for those who wonder – yes, I am different now from how I was in the past) told me this:

    * Even half a cup of grape juice is enough.

    * There is no need at all to sleep.

    I myself have never been drunk and intend to keep it that way. The only thing I use on Purim, as well as for Pesach and every other shabbos/yom tov, is grape juice.

    #1062642

    shepherd
    Participant

    as i am sure everyone here is aware the shulchan aruch is like notes for the mechaber’s magnum opus the beis yosef, and is meant for review not psak. so even though in shulchan aruch the mechaber does write chayav inush… see beis yosef to know what his psak is.

    #1062643

    shepherd
    Participant

    see also seder hayom how he explains it. he is quoted on this by R’ Avraham Azouli’s notes on the levush

    #1062644

    yytz
    Participant

    That’s interesting, Gatesheader. I prefer grape juice myself on most occasions. I think Rabbi Lazer Brody, an anglophone Breslover rabbi in Israel, only drinks alcohol twice a year, on Pesach and Purim, and only drinks very small amounts. R’ Shalom Arush is the same way, I understand, and says lengthy impromptu prayers before drinking, to ensure it has the positive spiritual effect rather than something neutral or negative.

    #1062645

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    What does Grape Juice have to do with Purim? In what way is it better than seltzer? I mean, if you like it then it is Lekavod the Seuda, but for its own sake, I don’t think it is Mevasem. Perhaps I just never took enough.

    Besumi is the positive term for Shikkur. As I pointed out in another thread, the Gemara uses it in Shabbos 66b for drinking too much. Perhaps it means tipsy or Gelufin, but Rashi says Shikkur. Shikkur is not Aramaic. The Aramaic term would be Ravi, but that is a derogatory term. We don’t say you should imbibe wine. We say drink yourself happy.

    The Gemara in Shabbos is also talking about having drunk enough for them to try to get rid of its effects. However, we don’t refer to Talmidei Chachamim as Ravi.

    Some bring proof from Raba’s response to Reb Zeira that there is an unspoken Maskana that we actually shouldn’t drink. I wonder if, perhaps, there is proof from there to the contrary. If Raba would have stopped drinking then he would have no problem eating the Seuda together with Reb Zeira. From the fact that he didn’t want him to come we see that he continued to drink but didn’t want Reb Zeira to come and put himself in harm’s way.

    #1062646

    Toi
    Participant

    tcg- why do you stand up proudly proclaiming not being yotzei lichol hadeyos and make it into a shittah. if you couldnt eat a kizyais of matza or had to use shiur not held of by roiv poskim, would you klap on the bimah and be proud? and the answer is, when it comes to this mitzvah, yes, because it shtims with all the politiclally correct dribble being bandied about here.

    #1062647

    Sam2
    Participant

    Toi: The Emek Bracha is Medayek the Rambam like you (in your second opinion) but it does not make sense at all to say L’ma’aseh.

    #1062648

    The little I know
    Participant

    TOI:

    You are completely wrong, and dangerously so.

    There is no such thing as a “chumroh” to drink to shikrus on Purim. There is discussion about what the nature of the mitzvah is. And many, including nearly all of the poskim that are the leaders of our generation, are stating clearly that the drunkeness that is involved in so much danger (alcohol poisoning, accidents, getting rowdy and fighting, drunk driving etc.) is not the preferred way to go, and that the mitzvah does NOT include these negatives. I consider ????? ???? ????? part of the mitzvah, and will be careful to avoid getting stuck in trying to fashion halacha to be consistent with my taavos. So no one is failing to adhere to your invention of chumroh.

    #1062649

    Toi: 1) I don’t like alcohol, 2) I don’t like drunks (the type that make a chillul hashem).

    If my rov in Yerushalayim, who is one of the 6 dayanim of the Badatz, says there is absolutely no chiyuv to drink wine (or to sleep), that’s good for me and I do not see any need to take other deos into account.

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