Pratim of Ad Delo Yoda

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  • #1062650

    WIY
    Member

    The only people who I have seen who have gotten really drunk and made a kiddush Hashem are certain Rabbonim and Tzaddikim. If you think you are a Tzaddik then by all means DONT DRINK because we will find out what a tzaddik you are.

    #1062651

    FIA
    Member

    The overwhelming majority of Rishonim and Achronim pasken that there is a chiyuv to get drunk on Purim. Most of the discussion is only how drunk it is required to become. Some (a minority) of rabbonim today speak of alternatives due to their understanding of some youth of this generation’s abuse of it. Though that is not affecting the requirements of (non-driver) adults.

    #1062652

    Toi
    Participant

    obviously i dont mean to drive drunk or the like. i have seen many, many ruchniusdik’ seudos and purims with bochurim that were slammed, accompanied by rabbeim that were slammed.

    #1062653

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    The following Rishonim do not take ?? ??? ??? at face value:

    Rabbenu Ephraim

    Shibolei Haleket

    Nimukei Yosef

    Rambam

    Kol Bo

    Ran

    Orchos Chaim

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=43543&st=&pgnum=133

    There may be more too.

    #1062654

    TLIK:

    “nearly all of the poskim that are the leaders of our generation, are stating clearly that the drunkeness that is involved in so much danger (alcohol poisoning, accidents, getting rowdy and fighting, drunk driving etc.) is not the preferred way to go”

    Name them.

    TCG:

    1) Care to name this Rov?

    2) Does he hold there is no maylah in fulfilling shitah the Shulchan Oruch and rov Rishonim?

    #1062655

    FIA
    Member

    I think we should all respect those who don’t get slammed ad dlo yoda on Purim in accordance with the minority opinions while we insist they too respect us who do take ad dlo yoda… arrur haman baruch mordechai literally per the peak of the SA and rov Rishonim.

    #1062656

    Toi
    Participant

    fia- but they refuse to, and thats the greatest tell. if you pasken a more meikildik’ shitta for whatever halachah, thats fine. if you stand up and say, this is better oh, and punkt is in accordance with the popular political climate and american attitude, then your motivation isnt torah true, so why should i respect that?

    #1062657

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Oh please, Toi, like the other side is l’sheim shamayim. Let’s not kid ourselves, we’re all a bunch of ba’alei tayva. Some of us want to get wasted, and some of us want to fit the Torah into the popular political attitude. Neither side should be playing holier-than-thou because neither side is.

    #1062658

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    not ???? yet. is it Too late?

    #1062659

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    DaasYochid – Something tells me you are being mekayem the mitzva b’hidur…

    #1062660

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Drug Haman? bariuch Mordechai. you’re wrong again

    edit: I still love you, even though I don’t know you.

    #1062662

    Toi
    Participant

    yit- shtussim. experiment- go see which side sits looking for hadassim for hours and is makpid on hadas shotah as they should be and which side buys prepackaged and figures it hopefully ok. ill be dancing plastered with my kosher hadassim. and yes, any ben torah who is as makpid as possible to follow every sif in S”A is holier then someone who rolls with the times.

    #1062663

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    My Purim seudah ended up being beautiful. We had about 15 guests over. We had good food, and lots of wine. I drank about 7-8 cups of wine during the meal. I always followed a cup of wine with a cup of water or seltzer to avoid dehydration. We sang Purim zemiros (I think we did a great rendition of the famous Modzitzer Shoshanas Yaakov), and said over Purim Torah. Nobody got really drunk – I got a slight buzz from all that wine, but that was it.

    After everyone left, I helped my wife clean up, then got a ride with someone to Maariv (even though I felt fine by then, I didn’t want to take a chance that the alcohol was still in my system).

    I think that Hashem was happy with the way I fulfilled the mitzvos, and won’t hold it against me that I didn’t get completely wasted.

    #1062664

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Toi – I’m far from convinced that it’s the same people in the two groups when it comes to other halachos.

    #1062665

    just my hapence
    Participant

    Toi – I have experimented and there is zero correlation between getting completely legless and being makpid in other mitzvos. The fact that for the fourth year in a row both batei din in my city have made takanos against excessive drinking is ra’aya enough. Incidentally, spending hours dreying over your hadassim is no indicator of yiras shomayim….

    #1062666

    Toi
    Participant

    yit and jmh- i think its worth stating that im in agreement that there are people who view this mitzvah as a license to go crazy and get totally wasted and dont have any regard for the actual miyzvah. im simply explaining that im of the opinion that there is a large tzibbur who does get drunk with the right kavanos and are written off as being one and the same. thaqts simply not true. and in this nekuda there is a correlation- the oilam hatorah that is makpid on other mitzvos is makpid on this one to, and for the right reasons.

    #1062667

    just my hapence
    Participant

    Toi – Unfortunately I think that the shelo lishma crowd vastly outnumber the lishma crowd. And as far as your second point goes that’s simply not true either, people are makpid on many mitzvos for many reasons – kavod, ‘frumkeit’ (Rav Wolbe in Alei Shur has a wonderful piece on this), societal reasons, OCD amongst many others – it is no indicator of yiras shomayim. And there is still no correlation between those that are makpid on (l’dugma) Chazon Ish shiurim and whether or not they get drunk lishma – I was in two of the largest yeshivos in the world for a number of years and saw it first hand.

    #1062668

    FIA
    Member

    I would like to echo everything Toi has written above (that’s a +1, for the Gen X crowd) and add that, in fact, the lishmo drunk crowd vastly outnumber the lo lishmo drunk crowd.

    #1062669

    WIY
    Member

    FIA

    “the lishmo drunk crowd vastly outnumber the lo lishmo drunk crowd.”

    You know that how? I was in a certain well known shul and many yong people were rolling in to Shacharis Purim morning at 1 oclock and later. Explain this.

    #1062670

    Toi
    Participant

    jmh- maybe they are outnumbered, but they still do it for th right reasons. anyway, i guess this is a moot point. youre gonna say no and im gonna say yes. a freilichen.

    #1062671

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    WIY, nobody did a survey. Yesh v’yesh.

    #1062672

    Ferd
    Participant

    Bump

    #1062673

    Toi
    Participant

    ha i crack myself up.

    #1062674

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    i only drink lishma

    i only drink wine, and at the seudah, not before. i try my best to be drunk up until the point before throwing up

    most of the time it doesnt work though

    #1062675

    A few random thoughts on the topic having recently delved into it a bit:

    1) On the topic of women, there is a source brought in the Nitei Gavriel that brings the din based on a pasuk. In the 9th perek of the Megillah, Mordechai sends out a letter to the yidden about Purim. Then Esther writes down as well (9:29). This time Purim is not spelled with a vav. Indicating that though women are obligated like men in the mitzvos of Purim – there is an exception. The din of drinking.

    2) Hagahos Maimonos brings the Ravayah that says drinking is a mitzvah b’alma but NOT a chiyuv. In other words, it seems it is a hiddur or perhaps the ideal way to have one’s seudas Purim – but one can fulfill their mitzvah of a seudah on Purim without becoming drunk (or drinking at all). Though drinking really should be taken quite seriously (see above posts ;-)) because the mitzvos of Purim are divrei sofrim and divrei sofrim one has to act in according with a din Torah (so safek – l’chumra) and the gemara does “chayav” – making it a potential situation where one has to go ideally like the most machmir shita (again as safek divrei sofrim l’chumrah).

    But, this Ravayah and the fact that the Archos Chayim brings the great avreirah it is to get drunk [as is known it leads to the most serious avreiros which one does not need a rishon to r’l know – not referring to Purim btw, just one sees by the goyim] (the Bais Yosef brings his opinion to CONCLUDE his discussion) – and the Rabbeinu Efrayim (the primary disciple of the Rif) learns the gemara that at least the extent of the din is lightened by the story of Rabbah and R’ Zeirah [one can says either he means no din at all or the din of “ad d’lo yada”].

    The Gra for example in the biur haGra on the Rema (who says one can take a nap AFTER drinking a little more than normal) brings the gemara that H’ loves one who never gets drunk and to see the Haghos Maimonos. In other words, it’s not contemporary Gedolim under political duress making such statements – its Rishonim and Gedolei Achronim.

    Saying that, it is quite obvious that if one can find a way to get drunk and not be m’vatel mitzvos (like davening, bentsching, and not doing inappropriate activity) – then it is not a din to poo poo. As the Gra implies, just drinking and taking a nap is a kula. It’s forced. It is a fitting to do according to the M’B because how else can one fulfill “ad d’lo yada” – except by putting themselves in danger. There are deep reasons (not sure what – but it is brought down) of ‘ad dlo yadah’ so the M’B while recognizing the pitfalls states one should at least take a nap. This is based on a Pri Megadim who gets from Pri Chadash that really the din is to get smashed but in our generations (ie the Pri Chadash – who lived in last half of the 1600’s) one should not do so.

    The emes is though that there is another shitah that seems to the Machaber (as the Rema brings a yeish omrim – he must be stating differently) and the Bach as well as many other poskim including the Sfas Emes on the Gemara and R’ Yisrael Salanter.

    The gemara is not saying the mitzvah is to go ‘ad dlo yadah’ – rather it is a mitzvah to drink and be someach in the inyan of Baruch Mordechai and Arur Haman (see the Taz for example and other holy Sefarim) and that simchah and joyous celebration is an obligation on the person the whole day. If they get to the point of ‘ad d’lo yadah’ – they’re patur. Not fulfilling but rather ending their ability to be involved in the mitzvah.

    This opinion requires drinking more than usual (the Bais Yosef says just ‘m’at’ [a little more] than usual), the Bach says even drunkedness that one still has their daas [ie their still aware and thinking – just quite tipsy]. This is the reason the gemara used l’vsumei not the normal lashon shikar (which the Tur says – and the Shulchan Aruch switches back).

    I have already written a lot, so I’ll stop

    Freliechen Purim.

    #1479595

    Joseph
    Participant

    <bump>

    #1479607

    laskern
    Participant

    The person drunk doesn’t know what is greater the saving of the Bnei Yisroel or the destruction of Haman. ארור המן and ברוך מרדכי have the same gematria explains the Magen Avraham. There is a difference that is not so obvious. Arur is greater than Haman whereas Mordechai is greater then Baruch, Haman was diminished but Mordechai was elevated.

    #1479623

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Sadly this year I’m patur from this chiyuv ☹️

    #1479635

    laskern
    Participant

    DQ , I don’t know what you are saying that safek divrei sofrim lechumra. ספיקא דרבנן לקולא The Rambam holds even by a mitzvas asei ספיקא מן התורה מדרבנן לחומרא but מן התורה is lekulah. The megila in the daytime is m’divrei kabolah lechumra but at night is oral law. A bar mitzva should not lein in the daytime but should be permitted at night. Isn’t divrei sofrim same as מדרבנן?

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 3 weeks ago by  YW Moderator-100.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 3 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1479636

    laskern
    Participant

    DQ, Check the Biur Halacha in name of the Meiri on עד דלא ידע.

    #1479640

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I am so sorry coffee addict 🙁

    #1479642

    laskern
    Participant

    Even the Mechaber would not require you to satisfy your chiyuv by making you sick. The Torah is דרכיה דרכי נועם and not to afflict yourself because we have to go lechumra. He would agree to just drink more than the usual.
    Vashti said to Achashverus that you were a horse keeper for my father and he was able to drink a thousand glasses of wine and did not become drunk but you get drunk after one glass.
    I think the connection is that because you are a horse keeper you cannot afford wine so you are not used to drinking, and therefore you get drunk even after one glass, but my father is rich so he drinks a lot and even a thousand glasses will not affect him.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 3 weeks ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 3 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1479668

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Thanks syag,

    I’ll ask someone if I can be mikayim the rema this year

    #1479670

    Put down the gun
    Participant

    There is an obligation to get drunk until your connection to Hashem is higher than a connection of “Yoda”= knowledge and seichel. So go get yourself completely smashed. But bear in mind that pikuach nefesh is doicheh kol hatorah kulah, so know your limits and make sure you are safe.

    #1479674

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    There was recently an interview of R’ Schachter published in the Jewish Press. They don’t allow links, so I can’t post that, but here are the questions and answers regarding Purim:

    Purim is approaching. What’s your opinion on the current level of drunkenness one sees on this day?

    It’s scandalous. Purim is supposed to be a celebration of kabalas haTorah, accepting the Torah. In the days of the second Beis HaMikdash, there were many yamim tovim d’rabanan, all of which were batul after the churban habayis, except for Chanukah and Purim. Of all these yamim tovim, only one had a chiyuv seudah: Purim. The Gaonim had the girsa in the Gemara that the reason Purim is different is because it’s yom kabalas haTorah.

    The words “kimu v’kiblu” [which we read in the Megillah] mean that there was another kabalas hatorah, so l’kavod kabbalas haTorah you have to make an elaborate meal. Purim is supposed to be a serious holiday. We really should stay up all night learning Torah.

    Isn’t it also a happy day on which we celebrate our salvation?

    Okay, so you drink a little until you become drowsy and take a nap as the Rema says in Shulchan Aruch, but it’s not supposed to be the Jewish Halloween. It’s scandalous.

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