August 24, 2012 at 1:12 pm #604671
Will people cease dying when Moshiach comes?
If you know anything, do you have a mekor?
August 24, 2012 at 2:58 pm #893580
Yekke: The Rambam in the Moreh (dunno precisely where) says that they certainly will die afterwards. I’ve heard that others say no but have never seen it inside.
August 24, 2012 at 3:10 pm #893581
There is no difference between this world and the next except in our subservience to the nations.
August 24, 2012 at 5:32 pm #893582
Techiyas Hameisim will occur sometime after Moshiach. Until then people will still die. After techiyas hameisim no one will die anymore.
August 24, 2012 at 6:17 pm #893583
Please recall that there are distinct epochs we are told about (with little enough detail to make it all mysterious) in the future.
There is Yemos Hamoshiach, which we are arguably already in the first stages of, at least according to R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and many others.
There is the idea of Ketz Hayomim, the end of days, the conclusion of history, the fulfillment of the role of Am Yisroel in creation,
There is the idea of tchiyas hameisim, the resurrection of the dead, which would happen around the time of ketz hayomim,
And then there is the often confused concept of Olom Haboh, which in normative use refers to the reward a neshama gets after its temporal life is ended, but which has sometimes been conflated with some of the elements of our “end times”.
The truth is that we know little enough and the only certainty we have of any of the details of it is in our bitochon.
August 24, 2012 at 6:52 pm #893584
“The Rambam in the Moreh (dunno precisely where)”
Is it by Hilchos Melachim or is that something else?
August 24, 2012 at 7:23 pm #893585
Shmoel: Once again, the Rambam does not agree to that.
August 24, 2012 at 7:35 pm #893586
Noone really knows what will be. There is one source that says the world will cease to exist after 6,000 years, a Gemorah somewhere. We are told that oilam habah is eternity so if noone dies after Moshiach comes, what happens to Oilam Haba ? There is so many unanswered questions and I dont think its in our place to start figuring these things out. Live life to the fullest, try to do the right things and Hashem will take care of the rest
August 24, 2012 at 7:47 pm #893587
It is a machlokes Rishonim. See Yeshaya 65:20, and the meforshim there (Rashi, Mahari Kara Radak) see also Beraishis Rabbah 26:2.
August 26, 2012 at 4:45 am #893588
Hil. Melachim 12:1
August 26, 2012 at 5:53 pm #893589
Rambam, hilchos melochim (note , this is part of the jad hachazokoh, a halacha sefer): perek 12 mishne 1 : “Do not think that there will be anything different in the “jemos hamoshiach”, or whether there will be any difference in the the “ways of the world’ (ma-ase bereishis), but the world will continue as always:” See rest of the mishne and the clear indication that the only difference in “jemos hamoshiach” will be in the fact that the Jewish people will be free of the rule of the gemtiles. This view is based on the words of Shmuel in Sanhedrin 91, who said “the only difference in “jemos hamoshiach’ will be “shibud malchyios”- the yoke of the gentiles”.
August 26, 2012 at 8:59 pm #893590
Nothing being different sounds like a disbelief of techiyas hameisim.
August 26, 2012 at 9:20 pm #893591
vchindik- I am refraining from saying what I think of your remark. Just note there is gemoro , there is a Rambam and neither of these have anything to do with “techyias hamessim”. Please look at the thirteen “ani ma-amin”s ,generally considered the basis of our “emunah” and you will see that there are TWO
ani ma-amin”s -one for “Bias Hamoshiach”, one for “Techyias hameessim”.
August 26, 2012 at 9:47 pm #893592
Sam: Where does the Rambam say people will die after Techiyas Hameisim? I don’t remember that and it makes no sense. If people still die after techiyas hameisim, what’s the whole point of T”H?
August 26, 2012 at 10:12 pm #893593
take a look at the ramchal in maamer hikarim (back of the Derech Hashem). He says that after mosiach comes “????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????”
August 26, 2012 at 10:26 pm #893594
rebbi1- your quote from the ramchal is confusing, I interpret it to say that people will live normally “bi-jemei hamoshiach” but when the time will come for “techiyas hameissim’ even those living then will die for one hour to qualify for “techyas hameissim” I will try to fidn the actual quoye in the sefer.
August 28, 2012 at 1:21 pm #893595
It does say in the Hagodo that ???? ???”? ???? ???? ????!
But the question is: Is it possible to kill without a ???? ????? If i go and stab somebody, does that use the ???? ???? or my knife???
In last week’s ????, [which prompted me to start the thread], the ???? says to institute three ??? ???? in the future – ????? ???. Even though you can say that when ???? comes it is not ????? ???, i don’t think that in ???? ??? it will be ???? to kill somebody. So the question remains:
Is the ???? ???? responsible for all deaths or only natural ones?
August 28, 2012 at 1:23 pm #893596
Another proof can be found in .???? ? – it says that ???? is ????? — thinking that it means from the ???? ???. The ???? answers that it means ????? ????? ???? —- but apparently not from the ???? ???. That sounds like it is possible to kill somebody without the Angel of Death.
Does anybody know either way?
August 28, 2012 at 3:12 pm #893597
Shmoel: The Rambam says that T’chiyas Hameisim only lasts a short time and is only for a few individuals who were nearly perfect in life but who didn’t have the time and ability to achieve a certain level in this world. Therefore they are given a second opportunity to reach that level.
August 28, 2012 at 3:50 pm #893598
yekke- just to remind you of what was said earlier- “jemos hamoshiach” (the days of Moshaich) are NOT the same as the days of ‘techyas hameissim”. The gemoro and the Rambam both say that the world will continue normally in “jemos hamoshiach”
sam2- your words are astounding. techyas hameissim only for a few select people? cannot be !
August 28, 2012 at 4:02 pm #893599
rob: There’s a reason no one quotes the Rambam’s Shittah about T’chiyas Hameisim.
August 28, 2012 at 4:07 pm #893600
sam2= thanks for the prompt reply. Can you pinpoint where the Rambam says that? (surely not in the jad)
August 28, 2012 at 4:12 pm #893601
rob: It’s in the Moreh (and possibly also the Peirush Hamishnayos). I can try and find where later.
August 28, 2012 at 5:25 pm #893602
Sam2- There is a shita either Ramchal or Rambam that certain necessary people will have techias hameisim when mashiach comes.
Techias Hameisim for all others will come at a later time.
August 29, 2012 at 12:03 am #893603
mz: Honestly, that sounds like an apologetic explanation for the Rambam by someone who is uncomfortable with accepting what the Rambam actually means.
August 29, 2012 at 1:27 am #893604
The main machlokes is: The Ramba”m holds that the world of Neshamos is the final goal and end of Geulah process, not being in a body. But a lot of others, from the Ramba”n to Ramcha”l maintain that Tchias Hamaisim is the final stage.
Then there are a lot of sub-machloksim that branch off from this. this takes volumes – not quite for a coffee room post.
You can see the Sefer of Rabbi Kirzner (which I was priveledged to write from his tapes) – “Maoz Latom” Vol. 2.
August 29, 2012 at 1:30 am #893605
However, everyone agrees that the body won’t be the one we have now, but less ‘grub’ and more spiritual. and before that Hashem will distroy this world and remake it, and give Tzadikim new bodies.
It’s a big subject…
August 29, 2012 at 2:27 am #893606
According to the (majority) shittos that most or everyone will return in techiyas hameisim, will everyone live forever after they return to the living during techiyas hameisim? Or will they die a second time? And if they die a second time, where will they go after their second death?
And will the people still alive during techiyas hameisim die and return or simply just stick around?
August 29, 2012 at 10:06 pm #893607
Everything can be. But no one really knows what will happen.
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