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Ah Gutten Erev Shabbos

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  1. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    Really "Old Foolish King", that's the name Sholom Hamelech gave to an entity known to cause people to scoff at the Torah, it's laws and customs, it's people. How appropriate for this time of Chanuka זדים ביד עוסקי תורתיך.

    I'm not poskenig on anything (I haven't any semicha, OBVIOUSLY), that's just not know a Yiddishe "Jew" talks. Must be from one of those...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. Health
    Member

    old man -"Lesson: Judaism permits the use of the brain before reaching far-flung and quite impossible halachic conclusions."

    Thank you - Rabbi/Poisek for agreeing with me about the obvious.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    I don't think you have to be mad at him for saying something that was a non-starter to you.

    As I said, I actually am Noheg like that but not Me'ikkar Dedina, perhaps not even as a Chumra, only as Milsa Dechasidusa. That's what my family did, and I followed.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    It comes from "1" Rosh Hayeshiva

    Do you have someone specific in mind, BTW?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. Health
    Member

    HaLeiVi -"It comes from "1" Rosh Hayeshiva
    Do you have someone specific in mind, BTW?"

    I do. I heard it from s/o who said it in the name of a RY in Brooklyn. I didn't hear it from him directly and he isn't alive anymore, nor was he my RY, so I'm reluctant to post his name.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. peacefull
    Member

    An interesting topic. I also know Ehrlich Yidden that hold this Minhug, however, they (probably) weren't so careful if mistakenly said A Gutten Shabbos on a Friday afternoon, to keep Kidushas Shabbos & Isur Melocha from then on.
    I also understand "old man" point, but should have been brought out with more respect towards Torah.
    Basicaly said, this is a Hidur / Chumrah in Kidushas Shabbos.

    Btw,in a Neder there can be Divorim Sh'blev, if it's said out in a Loshon of Neder but wasn't meant so.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. Health
    Member

    peacefull -"Btw,in a Neder there can be Divorim Sh'blev, if it's said out in a Loshon of Neder but wasn't meant so."

    In no way is saying "Good Shabbos" a Loshon of Neder.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    Health, but as I wrote earlier, being Mekabel Shabbos is treated like a Nedder.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. Health
    Member

    HaLeiVi -"Health, but as I wrote earlier, being Mekabel Shabbos is treated like a Nedder."

    But my point is saying Good Shabbos is Not being Mekabel Shabbos, nor is it a Loshon of Neder. People think by using fancy Jewish terms they can fool others into thinking that this is a Halacha or some Chumra based on Halacha. Unless you say it's some sort of Maaris Ayin -I see no basis for this "Chumra".

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. shmendrick
    Blocked

    To those who stubbornly claim that there is "no basis for this 'chumra' " and try to convince other not to be concerned over this inyan which impact shmiras shabbos -

    Below are TWO concurring sources of a posek hador and a renown Talmid Chochom, Rav S.Z. Auerbach and Harav Moshe Shternbuch. I accept these as better halachic authorities than Health, b'michilas kvodo.

    The seforim of these gedolim are cited below and can be looked up by anyone who can read Hebrew without nekudos.

    See http://e.yeshiva.org.il/ask/?id=2968:

    Question:
    Is it proper to extend greetings of Shabbat Shalom (Gut Shabbos) on Friday prior to Mincha?

    Answer:

    HaGoan HaRav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (ZL)was not in favor of extending such a greeting prior to Mincha. His rationale was that it is well known that Hagoan HaRav Akiva Eiger ruled that a person who said on Friday night “Shabbat Shalom” may, by such a statement, observe the Biblical mitzvah of Kiddush which is a requirement to simply remember the Shabbat on Shabbat, [Zachor et Yom HaShabbat]. To observe the Mitzva of Kiddush implys that one has accepted upon himself the observances of Shabbat. Accordingly, such a person would not be permitted to Daven a weekday Mincha; for one cannot observe the Kiddush of Shabbat and then contradict such a status by davening a weekday Mincha. Such contradictory observances are not permissible.Though it is not assumed that the Halacha follows HaRav Akiva Eiger’s above noted rule, at the same time, one may not simply assume that his ruling is rejected.

    Indeed, the stature of HaRav Akiva Eiger is so great that it is proper to be concerned with his halachic positions. It was, therefore, recommended to greet friends prior to Mincha by saying,”a Gut Erev Shabbos”. It was intimated, moreover, to recite the word “Erev”in a subdued voice. (V’Alaihu Lo Yibol, Volume I, Orech Chayyim 191, pp. 136-137)

    Harav Moshe Shternbuch, without citing a source, notes the reputed view of Harav Auerbach that it was improper to say either “ Gut Shabbos or Shabbat Shalom” prior to Mincha on Friday due to HaRav Akiva Eiger’s ruling that such a greeting may be a form of observing the Biblical Mitzva of ‘’Zachor et Yom HaShabbat”. HaRav Auerbach suggests that one need not be concerned with this issue during the daytime on Friday for several reasons. First of all the greeting of ‘Gut Shabbos” does not imply that the person is at that moment accepting Shabbat. It merely means that one wishes another to have or experience a joyous Shabbat. Also, one certainly does not have intention to observe the Biblical Mitzva of Kiddush by the greeting of “Gut Shabbos”.[The Halacha is that Biblical Mitzvot require intention (Kavana) for observance. See Shulchan Aruch Orech Chayyim 60:4] He suggests that HaRav Akiva Eiger’s ruling is operational only on Friday night once Shabbat has commenced. At that period of time, the theory is that since Shabbat has already commenced and the person says “Gut Shabbos”, perhaps, that greeting is a form of observing the Kiddush of Shabbat. However, prior to the onset of Shabbat there is no indication that the greeting in any way is an acceptance of the onset of Shabbat. As a pragmatic custom HaRav Shternbuch suggests that ab initio [l’chat’chila] one should refrain from saying “Gut Shabbos or Shabbat Shalom’’ prior to Mincha for , perhaps, one may have intention that Shabbat has commenced.(Teshuvot V’Hanhagot, Volume IV, Siman 59)

    The Mishna Berura rules that prior to “Plag HaMincha”-[an hour and fifteen minutes prior to sunset on a day wherein there are twelve daytime hours], the Mitzva of Kiddush is not operational. (Mishna Berura, Orech Chayyim, 263:18 and 261:25) Accordingly, prior to that time it should be permissible to greet others by saying “Shabbat Shalom or Gut Shabbos for since Kiddush does not take place there should be no apprehension of any observance other than a greeting that Shabbat should be a happy experience.

    Rabbi J. Simcha Cohen

    Now you know WHEN it's time to say Gut Shabbos...as Reb Abie Rotenberg sings.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    Why do you speak derogatorily about people who are Mechaven to Reb SZ Auerbach, as per Reb Moshe Shternbuch?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. shmendrick
    Blocked

    Health, are you maskim that these is "some" basis for this chumrah or do you think that Reb SZ Aurebach and Rav Moshe Shternberg and this "1" unnamed RY from Brooklyn OBM are also all c"v megaleh ponim batorah shelo k'halacha?

    Your postings may have caused readers to be nichshal in melacha b'shabbos!! Ignorance is no excuse for being machshil ess harabbim.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. shmendrick
    Blocked

    I am mochel that you were poygeyah in my kovod, and a talmid chochom cane be mochel on his kovod, but you also likely caused a pegiyah in kovod shomayim by being machti ess harabim by telling the public that they may say gut shabbos on Friday afternoon.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. Health
    Member

    shmendrick - "Your postings may have caused readers to be nichshal in melacha b'shabbos!! Ignorance is no excuse for being machshil ess harabbim."

    Again you are Megaleh Ponim B'torah Shelo K'Halacha. You didn't even read or understand your own post. There's No Chiyuv.
    Also, I said there could be an Inyan because of Maaris Ayin. R' SZ Auerbach says Tarti Disasrey which is very similar to Maaris Ayin, even though not exactly the same.
    There is only a basis to keep this Chumra if you're a Talmid of those two Rabbonim in EY. (Or a Talmid of the RY Z'tl in Brooklyn. Or a Talmid of anyone else who holds this.)
    You are still Megaleh Ponim because you said before the BH (Chofetz Chaim) Paskens like the R' A. Eiger. So since we hold like the C.C. usually - there is no reason like R' SZA says "Indeed, the stature of HaRav Akiva Eiger is so great that it is proper to be concerned with his halachic positions." R' SZA doesn't have to hold like the CC, but unless you're a Talmid of R' SZA you don't have to hold like him over the CC!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. shmendrick
    Blocked

    It is "ah GITTEN erev shabbos" not "ah gutten" as in gluten.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    Or A Gütten erev Shabbos.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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