Annual dues in shuls

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  • #614818
    Joseph
    Participant

    How much do you pay for shul membership? It appears that in chareidi shuls annual dues are typically in the form of seats being sold, generally in the ballpark of $150-200 per seat (and people often purchase additional seats for other members of their family who attend shul with the additional seats oftentimes being discounted). Whereas in modern orthodox shuls, rather than selling seats, members are billed annual membership fees, per family, in the ballpark of $1,500-$2,500 per year or 1%-2.5% of annual income. (Non-Orthodox synagogues seem to have a similar setup with annual dues.)

    I’ve heard that the concept of selling seats originated in churches, where until in middle of the 20th century or so they rented pews annually to members. If so, would not copying this idea from the church be problematic?

    Also, is it in fact the case that chareidi shuls charge so much less than mo shuls? What accounts for this discrepancy?

    #1058790
    BarryLS1
    Participant

    I Davened in a Chassidish Shteibel. There is annual dues of $400 including seats. Depending on the type of Shul, dues can be much higher depending on cost of operation and staff involved. Larger Orthodox Shuls, whether Yeshivish or MO, often charge more.

    #1058791
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Charging for seats started on the lower east side during the high tire of immigration. Many people had stopped being religious but would come for the Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. They wouldn’t pay membership so selling seats was the major fundraising.

    #1058792
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Larger shuls equals larger upkeep I would think.

    #1058793
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Goq, sure, but per capita?

    The place I davened this year on Yom Kippur doesn’t charge for seats, and doesn’t have annual dues.

    But I’m not saying where it is, because I’m afraid popa’s gonna show up.

    #1058794
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Why DY are they so big they have their own starbucks?

    #1058795
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, but not so so big that it’s a full service Starbucks.

    #1058796
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    My shul has a base amount per family, plus a small amount per child. My membership this year came out to about $1,200.

    The membership doesn’t just cover seats. They have youth groups every Shabbos and Yom Tov during Shacharis, where the youth leaders teach the children parts of Shabbos davening and discuss the parshah with them, so the parents can daven without being disturbed. There are groups for the kids on Shabbos afternoon. There is a kiddush and Seudah Shlishi in shul every week. The membership dues cover the bills the shul has.

    #1058797
    Joseph
    Participant

    The yeshivish shuls often have Pirchei for the kids Shabbos afternoon (with the Pirchei costing only a very nominal fee). And there are kiddushes often (which is typically sponsored by a member.) Yet, somehow, the annual dues costs are generally about a couple hundred bucks not over a thousand or even a couple thousand bucks.

    #1058798
    takahmamash
    Participant

    Our shule dues are ?1600, which includes two R”H/Y”K seats. Additional seats are more; there’s a discount for students and chayalim.

    #1058799
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Lior why are so concerned with what other types of yidden do? do what you feel is best for you.

    #1058801
    oomis
    Participant

    Our shul is around $400 per family annually.

    #1058802
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    $400 here too

    Shuls have expenses, Buildings arent free to operate. Con Ed needs to get paid, Shuls need to be kept clean

    The Rabbi needs to get paid, the building fund needs to be paid off, etc

    #1058803
    lesschumras
    Participant

    The largest expense our shul has is payroll ( Rabbi, office secretary, caretaker,youth director ) and related expenses ( health insurance etc ) . $400 per family could not cover our non payroll costs as well as pay our Rav a living wage without having to work a second job. Our dues are $1200 which includes seats for Rosh Hashana

    #1058804
    yaakov doe
    Participant

    I’m a sheibel kiddush hopper who incurs no dues, just cholunt and kugel. I’ll ssk this Shabbos what the different shteibel’s duiesare.

    #1058805
    lesschumras
    Participant

    When I lived in Brooklyn there were people who davened Kabalas Shabbos in our shul every week because it was nearby and they didn’t want to make the 20 minute walk to their “regular” shul. Since we weren’t the Shabbos morning shul, they felt no obligation to contribute any amount to the shul’s upkeep.

    #1058806
    Sam2
    Participant

    How much is the Rabbi paid?

    #1058807
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I know a lot of rabbis who work second (or even third) jobs.

    #1058808
    lesschumras
    Participant

    With his parsonage, between $130,000 and $150,000. Many Rabbis have to work second and third jobs because they can’t live on the shul salary

    #1058809
    blubluh
    Participant

    Obviously, a dedicated location for a minyan costs money. Whether it’s in some open field, a room in a commercial building, a residence or a dedicated synagogue, someone’s bearing the expense (ie: someone owns the field, even if it’s the tax-funded township).

    The more numerous or fancier the amenities, the higher the costs. Expenses exceeding donations and fund-raising events must be covered somehow.

    Membership dues is the most common and fair-minded approach to bridging any shortfall, usually adjusted by ability to pay.

    If nobody pays, nobody prays (at least, not there).

    This isn’t rocket science.

    #1058810
    Joseph
    Participant

    So MO shuls charge so much more because they pay their rabbi so much more than chareidi shuls and they have larger shul staffs?

    #1058811
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Not all MO shuls have staffs.

    However MO shuls and Charedi shuls are generally set up different. In Charedi Shuls , the shul is the Rabbi’s. He owns the shul, He owns the property and raised his own money to build it. and can make the rules. He answers to nobody. Usually in MO shuls, they are run by a board of directors and the Shul is owned by a non-profit corproation that owns the shul and pays the Rabbi. The Rabbi answers to the board of directors and they can remove him if need be, they also gurantee his salary , that he will get what is promised .

    #1058812
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    That is not at all true. It may be true of ??????, but is not at all an accurate description of “Chareidi” as a rule. Not even of the shuls in Brooklyn.

    #1058813
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Most Charedi Shuls even if larger are still usually Shteibels. It might be set up as a Non-Profit Corporation, but its still owned by the Rav.

    I knew of an unfortuante situation of a Shteibel that when the Rav died, his heirs had decided to sell off the building and get the money. The people who davened there were upset as they had paid the expenses for the shul (including the mortgage) and were now left high and dry with nothing to show for it.

    #1058814
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    What you are positing as fact is actually a fallacy.

    #1058815
    oomis
    Participant

    My rabbi is paid a FRACTION of what was posted here, and the $400 would cover the shul’s expenses if everyone would pay it in full at the beginning of the year, when they are supposed to. Our Y”N seats are separate. We also have people who daven by us, so my husband tells me, every single weekday, plus Friday night and Mincha/Maariv on Saturday. They rarely contribute anything to the Shul, but financially only seem to support the shuls they daven in on Shabbos morning. I think that’s wrong.

    #1058816
    yehudayona
    Participant

    In my neck of the woods, the larger Chareidi shuls are Agudahs. They certainly don’t fit ZD’s model. The rabbis have other jobs in chinuch. I suspect the rabbi is the only person on the payroll (except maybe a part-time janitor).

    #1058817
    Joseph
    Participant

    If a person davens in different places a) Friday night Kabbalos Shabbos b) Shabbos morning Shachris / Mussaf c) Shabbos Mincha / Motzei Shabbos Maariv and d) Weekdays, should he have to purchase a seat in all four of the aforementioned shuls?

    #1058818
    oomis
    Participant

    If people regulatly daven in a different minyan every time they go to shul, then they should choose one place for the Y”N and get their seats there just for the yomim tovim. Otherwise, they should, IMO, contribute a proportionate amount to every place in which they daven regularly. Mispallelim have a chiyuv to give towards bedek habayis. So if you don’t take out a formal membership in every shul, (which would be bizarre),at least give a chelek of a reasonable membership fee as a donation to each shul, as hakoras hatov for them welcoming you there, even when you aren’t a paid up member.

    #1058819
    Joseph
    Participant

    Shuls should minimize their expenses to focus on maintaining the shul rather than fancy staffs and services, thus reducing membership fees. This is the general heimishe approach.

    #1058820
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Lior,

    So MO shuls charge so much more because they pay their rabbi so much more than chareidi shuls and they have larger shul staffs?

    Not sure you can pin it to MO vs. non-MO shuls, but your reasoning is basically correct. Different shuls have different needs or philosophies about what services a shul will provide to its community. A shul with the sole purpose of providing a small space for men to daven will have the lowest overhead costs. That setup is feasible in areas where a frum infrastructure is already well established. Other shuls require the full time participation of one or more rabbis and other staff to provide additional services that the community wants or needs, and they may have a larger or more expensive building.

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