Are Chareidi women judges the wave of the future?

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  • #1475388

    Avi K
    Participant

    Chavi Toker, daughter of Rav Schach’s right hand man and daughter-in-law of the late rosh yeshiva of Chevron, has been appointed to the Jerusalem District Court, which has original jurisdiction in felony cases and large civil suits as well as appellate jurisdiction. She is now one up on Rachel Freier who serves on the Brooklyn Criminal Court, which only tries lesser crimes. Can we expect Chareidi women to fill the judiciaries in both countries? What about other countries with significant Chareidi populations?

    #1475471

    Joseph
    Participant

    No. The vast majority of women who call themselves Chareidi are Torah observant and would never consider violating prohibitions against women being judges or against arkaos, serving or participating in a non-Jewish/non-Din Torah/non-Beis Din case.

    #1475750

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    They are not a wave of the future, they are a wave of the past.

    #1475764

    B0B0V
    Participant

    its nothing new, Devorah Haneviya was a Judge, its a big kiddush hashem to have more charedi judges, kol hakavod.

    #1475780

    adocs
    Participant

    Joseph-

    While I don’t know much about the new judge in Israel, regarding Freier it’s been reported that she did not do anything without the support of her Rav/Rebbe.

    Are those reports false?

    #1475784

    Avi K
    Participant

    Adocs, Judge Freier was endorsed by rabbanim and printed their letters on her campaign literature. Judge Toker’s appointment was greeted positively by her rabbinic family although some rabbanim considered it problematic for any Chareidi, male or female. Of course, one first has to define “Chareidi”. Rav Yaakov Ariel supports those who are knowledgeable in both Halacha and secular law to become judges so as to fix the system from within. He even told one talented woman (I don’t know her name but heard this from a reliable source) to do so.

    #1475785

    Joseph
    Participant

    adocs: Give us the name of an actual Rov she allegedly has the support from to become a secular judge and your question can be answered instead of your relying on “reports”.

    #1475794

    chosid
    Participant

    @joseph over 12 leading rabbonim signed a kol kora in support of judge freier when she ran for office, she clearly has daas torah, here is a copy of that letter.

    #1475903

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @AviK
    “Can we expect Chareidi women to fill the judiciaries in both countries?”
    NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    There may be a few elected in Chareidi pockets ion the USA. BUT they will never fill the judiciary in the USA. Most jurisdictions have few Jews, nevermind Chareidi Jewish women qualified for the bench.

    One might get elected in Brooklyn, but that won’t happen in Goyville, USA. Here in Connecticut, Judges are appointed, not elected and it’s not going to happen. The current nominee for Chief Justice of our state Supreme Court is an Irish-American Male married to another male.

    I run into a few Chareidi attorneys in the courthouses, but I don’t even see MO judges on the bench be they male or female,

    #1475912

    Joseph
    Participant

    MO judges ditch the Yarmulka, CTL, and you’d never know they’re religious.

    #1475919

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We’re still waiting for Joseph’s response to the haskoma signed by multiple rabbonim.

    #1475921

    Joseph
    Participant

    I have to investigate the veracity of it. Still making some phone calls and awaiting call backs.

    #1475930

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Lol

    #1475932

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    JosephParticipant
    adocs: Give us the name of an actual Rov she allegedly has the support from to become a secular judge and your question can be answered instead of your relying on “reports”.
    ———————-
    As if joseph himself never relies on “reports”.
    Just about every sefer today is a report.
    Schools write reports. Police write reports. Rosh yeshivas write reports. Gedolim write reports.

    #1475948

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Hey Joseph. Theres a report that just came out that says as follows​:
    Tomorrow monday is sunny and clear. Hi 73° low 35° .
    Which rabbanim can i call to find out if this is true?

    #1475958

    Binyanadead
    Participant

    Yes, Chareidi women, as they have in the past, are and will continue to enter and excel in all business and professional fields, as they are responsible for leading and supporting their families. They should all have hatzlacha, BE”H.

    On another note, regarding arkaos, all the big chareidi machlokisim have been and are fought out in arkaos, not in bais din. This includes, Satmar, Bobov and Ponevez. So these charedie women judges will have their hands full.

    #1475965

    Joseph
    Participant

    “On another note, regarding arkaos, all the big chareidi machlokisim have been and are fought out in arkaos, not in bais din.”

    You are arguing (even if true) that this makes arkaos muttar?!

    The issur against arkaos is to be a (willing) litigant, lawyer or judge in a non-Din Torah court where the parties are Yidden.

    #1475968

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Bobov was decided in beis din.

    #1476235

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @joseph
    I was very specific about lack of frum Jewish judges in Connecticut courts,
    I have decades of experience there, you have none.
    Merely removing a yarmulke would not stop regular appearing attorneys from knowing a judge is MO.
    In a typical Judicial District (Such as Fairfield with it’s Superior Court in Bridgeport) there might be 25-30 Judges, There bios, addresses etc are all available, Not only do I know them, I would know if they were members of the few frum shuls in the area. I can immediately rule out the Italian, Polish, Irish and African Americans. There are almost no Jewish judges…….as a number I now who have been asked if they want an appointment say? Why take such a big pay cut? In fact there is only one Jewish judge at the current time and she is a member of a Reform Synagogue.
    I can identify less than 1 dozen Jewish Trial Court Judges in CT and 1/3 are Referees…retired judges who work per diem to ease backlogs.
    Judges are nominated by the Governor, confirmed by the General Assembly and have an 8 year term
    Probate Judges are part time local elected officials and it’s been 30 years since the Jewish Probate Judge retired in New Haven and he was of German-Jewish Reform background.

    #1476604

    Joseph
    Participant

    “There are almost no Jewish judges…….as a number I now who have been asked if they want an appointment say? Why take such a big pay cut?”

    Are you trying to say those Jews have money as Priority 1 whereas the goyim do not?

    #1476702

    chosid
    Participant

    @ctlawyer there is not a lack of Orthodox Jewish female judges as you claim,
    according to a “report” on YeshivaWorld there is a frum woman judge in MD
    and another frum woman might become elected.

    quote: Dalya Attar could become the second Orthodox Jewish female elected to office in Baltimore, joining Chaya “Karen” Friedman, a Baltimore City Circuit Court judge who is married to askan Tzvi Howard Friedman.

    Link: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1283876/baltimore-orthodox-attorney-files-candidacy-maryland-house-delegates.html

    #1476736

    Joseph
    Participant

    A woman’s place is not in the public arena. This principle is enumerated throughout the Torah, Chazal and Halacha – including Shulchan Aruch and Rambam.

    #1476765

    Phil
    Participant

    “A woman’s place is not in the public arena.”

    Joseph,

    All of the Rabbonim who endorsed Judge Freier obviously don’t agree with your ruling. You don’t know as much as you think so it’s time for you to get off the internet and start listening to Rabbi Miller tapes again. You can come out of your mother’s basement when you’re all done.

    #1476772

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @chosid
    You think 2 frum female judges in the USA constitutes filling the judiciary? I don’t.
    That’s why my reply to the question posed by the OP is negative.

    #1476771

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @joseph
    No.
    The only non-referee Jewish judges I know in Connecticut either came from government employment which pays less than private practice, or some altruistic juvenile court judges who sought the appointment to help better the system.
    I was offered an appointment about 20 years ago, but could not have afforded to keep my kids in yeshiva, etc. had I taken a pay cut of more than 50%

    #1476769

    Avi K
    Participant

    Regarding arkaot, I heard about a frum judge in NYC (there are several – I even met one at an OU convention and there is now a retired UK judge in one my shiurim) who got a civil suit involving Chassidim. He reprimanded them and told them to go to a bet din. However, there is a problem (and i do not think only by Chassidim) of people not recognizing each other’s battei din. What then happens is that the bet din issues a ketav siruv and the plaintiff goes to the secular court. In Israel, BTW, judges are authorized to refer people to mediation or arbitration and often do in order to clear their crowded calendars. The bet din of Eretz Hemdah-Gazit receives many such referrals and not just from frum judges.

    #1476791

    akuperma
    Participant

    If a frum woman is going to get a job outside the home, and goes to law school, she enters the career tract that can result in one becoming a judge. The same holds true of frum men, but many frum men prefer to concentrate on learning, which reduces those likely to end up becoming judges.

    Indeed, since the “best” of the frum men focus their vocational energy on learning (e.g. teaching within the Torah world), and the “best” of the frum women who choose to work outside the home are not so distracted, one should expect to find increasing number of hareidi women doing well in professions. They have an added advantage over non-chareidi women in that they are in a community in which many women stay at home, creating a large pool of reliable child-care opportunities.

    #1476815

    Joseph
    Participant

    “the “best” of the frum women who choose to work outside the home are not so distracted”

    They are very distracted from their domestic responsibilities.

    #1476928

    akuperma
    Participant

    Joseph: For a frum woman to not have an “outside” job she has to have tremendous economic resources (inherited wealth, a rich husband which probably indicates he isn’t a Ben Torah since one doesn’t get rich by sitting and learning, etc.). The choice is between doing semi-skilled work in a store or office, or being an underpaid functionary in a frum non-profit, or being a lawyer.

    Also note that “best of frum women who work outside the home” is compared to “best of frum men” (who by definition don’t go into professions, leaving the money-making to the second raters) and “best of other types of women” (who have tremendous problems finding child care since in their communities few women they would associate with are stay-at-home mothers).

    #1476902

    Phil
    Participant

    “They are very distracted from their domestic responsibilities.”

    Joseph,

    You don’t know what’s going on in other people’s homes and the Rabbonim who endorsed Judge Freier disagree with you.

    #1476982

    Avi K
    Participant

    Who says that the best men do not go into professions? Who is better, someone who kvetches and waves the fat finger all day or someone who applies Torah in professions and sanctifies Hashem’s name?

    #1476980

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    No American court would ever grant a request from a frum yid who wanted a “real judge” (aka not a woman) to preside over his trial. Even in EY, you cannot get a change in judge because you don’t like the gender or the lvush of the judge assigned to your case.

    #1477803

    Avi K
    Participant

    Dor,
    1. Presumably no one could have refused to have Devora, who according to one explanation was a “real judge”, hear his case being that the public accepted her (Gittin 88b Tosafot d”h velo).
    2. Even in a bet din you cannot refuse a judge because you do not like his sartorial tastes.
    3. In a criminal case mishpat hamelech is whatever the authorities decide is appropriate.

    #1479190

    chosid
    Participant

    @joseph
    “A woman’s place is not in the public arena. This principle is enumerated throughout the Torah, Chazal and Halacha – including Shulchan Aruch and Rambam.”

    in der heim they held so, the girls didnt even go to schools, when Sarah Shnirrer started schools for girls, most rabbonim were against it, they held that girls should stay home, but as time went on, everyone realized that she was right, woman should be part of society and go to school, same is with women going to work outside of the home, the secular world thinks that orthodox woman don’t work and stay home.

    well today most rabbonim hold that women should go out in the world to work and get educated either with college or hi position jobs, charedi women becoming judges or other top hi positions in government will soon be the new norms.

    #1479199

    Joseph
    Participant

    “in der heim they held so”

    In the Torah, Gemorah and Shulchan Aruch it says so.

    “woman should be part of society”

    That was never c”v Sarah Shnirrer’s goal. She created schools for girls, something never done before in Jewish history, due to a shas hadchak of girl going off the derech. At the time you had families where after the husband made kiddush Friday night, the wife r”l went to the movie theatre.

    “well today most rabbonim hold that women should go out in the world to work and get educated either with college or hi position jobs”

    This is patently false. Rav Moshe, Rav Aharon and so many other Chareidi Gedolim past and present have railed against college.

    #1479213

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Fake Halacha once again. There’s no way for a wife to support a family when the husband learns long-term, without attending college. We’re still waiting for you to respond to the letter from the Rabbonim who endorsed Judge Freier.

    #1479254

    Joseph
    Participant

    Phil, I shep nachas everytime you get bent out of shape and post a comment foaming at your mouth.

    #1479276

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    From your silly response it’s obvious that your research has shown the Rabbonim’s letter endorsing Judge Freier to be 100% true. So why not do the mature thing for a change and admit that you made up a fake Halacha again? It’s what R. Avigdor Miller would want you to do.

    #1479380

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    I laugh every time you bend the truth and post a fake halacha just to criticize other Jews.

    So you have no response to the Rabbonim’s letter endorsing Judge Freier, which proves you wrong?

    #1481863

    simcha613
    Participant

    Joseph- I’m assuming the rule that women shouldn’t be in the public arena or that they shouldn’t do anything that could distract them from their domestic responsibilities is waived when being the primary family bread-winner in order to enable a husband to learn Torah full time?

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