Are We Spoiling Our Kids?

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  • #592052
    philosopher
    Member

    I think thant kids today get whatever they want. Whether it’s little things like silly bands or bigger things for Chanuka and birthdays.

    Life used to be simple. Kids didn’t get nor EXPECT to get so many things.

    Not only do parents give but also schools keep on giving these little prizes every second day.

    We can’t restrict our kids too much either. We can’t be oiber chachomim and give what we feel our kids SHOULD get and not take into consideration what kids around them are recieving.

    On the other hand, our children can’t grow up with the “es kimt zich mir” attitude a lifestyle of getting whatever one wants, not what they need, cultivates.

    Where can we find the middle way, the balance of not spoiling our kids while not being too restrictive?

    #695695
    smartcookie
    Member

    If parents today are so spoiled, of course the kids are too.

    Kids learn by example.if you want ur kids to be content, then you gotta be happy too.(And I’m also talking to myself here).

    #695696
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    clearheaded:

    Suggestions on the Kav HaYashar (take what you like, leave what you don’t, some may be contradictory)

    1: Set an allowance, and except for special occasions, don’t buy anything else.

    2: Take child to the store, and show them how much toys cost compared to food, etc. Many children (and adults) have no concept of Cost.

    3: Take your child to a soup kitchen, Tomchei Shabbos, etc (assuming they are old enough to understand) to show them how the “other side” lives.

    4: Work on delayed gratification. Tell you child “you can have it, but then when you want a bigger present (birthday, etc.) you will not be able to get one. AND FOLLOW THROUGH!

    5: Start a savings account for the child, and show how small amounts add up when saved over long periods.

    Good luck, and feel free to add or argue.

    #695697
    squeak
    Participant

    smartcookie, that is a brilliant and insightful point. When the parents act like nouveau riche the children will act the same way.

    #695698
    Sister Bear
    Member

    Make the kids work for what they want. For example my brother wanted a PSP (Play Station Portable) and so he had to work long and hard for it. Not in the monetary sense necessarily but by changing their middos.

    Or just make them pay for it themselves. If I want something electronic or extra then I have to pay for it. And personally, I don’t see why my parents should have to pay for something I want.

    #695699
    philosopher
    Member

    If parents today are so spoiled, of course the kids are too.

    Kids learn by example.if you want ur kids to be content, then you gotta be happy too.(And I’m also talking to myself here).

    smartcookie, It works in theory, but not always in reality.

    Kids see what others have and want those things too. Even if the parents don’t spend extra, if all the girls are wearing silly bands, or have a certain shmuntz, they’ll also want it, regardless if they need it or not. Today’s kids’ NEEDS are really WANTS.

    #695700
    philosopher
    Member

    Set an allowance, and except for special occasions, don’t buy anything else.

    Good idea.

    Take child to the store, and show them how much toys cost compared to food, etc. Many children (and adults) have no concept of Cost.

    It’s not really the big things that’s a problem. It’s the little things that add up.

    #695701
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Even Laura Ingalls Wilder wanted name cards.

    Its normal for kids to want “what everyone else has.” The key is to teach them the value of items, the cost of them and the hardwork to obtain it.

    #695702
    blinky
    Participant

    I know this is gonna sound weird but ill just say my opinion. Some parents are scared of “harming their children.” Its like the second the baby cries they are being held-sometimes you just have to let it go. The baby grows up and expects all its demands to be done, and some parents give it bec. they don’t want to make their child unhappy in any way. But they have to realize that sometimes not e/t in life is dandy. Its like going to the doctor. R you going to tell the doc not to give your baby a shot bec. it hurts? Of course not-s/t pain is for our benefit. Some parents have to know when to say NO.

    #695703
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I looked up this Silly Bandz toy on Wikipedia, it says

    “The toys are sold in packs of 24 for about $4.95”

    This does not sound unreasonable for a toy. Perhaps it can be used to teach responsibility, such as only giving one (out of the 24) out every two/three weeks and telling the child they have to take care of it (not lose or break it), or they will have none. Or giving one out for doing extra, and let the child think how she could help, and if she does so without asking, reward the child.

    Everything can be a teaching moment, even something silly (intended:).

    #695704
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    clearheaded:

    That is what 4&5 are for, to teach how small things add up.

    #695705
    philosopher
    Member

    blinky, I’m not talking about saying no or not. I’m saying that it’s crazy that today it’s so hard to say “NO” AND it sometimes is not an option.

    I’m not even talking about my own kids. I see people are assuming so. I’m saying it’s very hard to say “NO” because EVERYONE (and I do mean EVERYONE) has stuff, it doesn’t even have to be big, but little fads that keep on changing. I’m not talking about the DOLLAR. I’m talking about the SENSE. We need to keep kids from getting the “everythings coming to me attitude”, but we can’t restrict them too much either, or it will have repercussions.

    #695706
    philosopher
    Member

    I see people are taking the title of this post literally.

    With the word “We” I meant this generation, not only my husband and I (although we’re included).

    #695707
    Poster
    Member

    “Some parents have to know when to say NO. “

    We call it Vitamin N.

    #695708
    sm29
    Participant

    For every family, each one should try to decide when to say yes and when to say no. If you say yes too much, they’ll be spoiled. And if we say no too much, they might rebell and do it anyone.

    Decide what to give and what to restrict. Hopefully this will help so they appreciate what they have and also don’t feel too smothered.

    #695709
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    “Some parents have to know when to say NO. “

    We call it Vitamin N.

    Like!

    #695710
    philosopher
    Member

    gsvra, about the silly bandz: my idea was to give it to the kids one at a time. But I can’t take it when kids come with tons of them on their wrist, from one day to the next.

    That’s what I mean. The WAY parents give teaches kids not to be appreciate. It’s pathetic.

    #695711
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    clearheaded:

    I have learned time and time again that you can not force others to do the right thing, particularly with telling them how they should raise their children.

    The only thing that can be done is to teach your own children what is right and wrong, and hope they internalize it.

    We live in a time of extreme materialism (which is the source of many, if not all of the “crisises” that we claim to exist). If you are happy not having everything, and show your children that you can be happy with less, Bezras Hashem your children will escape the materialism that surrounds them.

    I’m not saying there is anything wrong with having, but there must be priorities.

    #695712
    dvorak
    Member

    Smartcookie- WRT the 4th point you make, there’s actually something called the “marshmallow test”- You give the child a marshmallow (or whatever other treat) and leave the room for 5 minutes. You tell the child that they have a choice- they can eat it while you’re gone, or they can wait until you come back and get another one. There is nothing wrong with eating it right away, just that they will miss out on the opportunity to have a second treat. You can google video results for the “marshmallow test”, they actually have videos of kids trying really hard to resist and it’s cute and kinda funny too. Anyway, it is a lesson in delayed gratification for younger children.

    #695713
    bpt
    Participant

    I’m with philosopher and SM 29.

    While my kids don’t have a pony or a jetski, I try to give them as much as I can, even though I did not have those same things as a kid. Today’s world is much more competitive and if I’m not their best friend, someone else will be. And that is a chance I cannot afford to take.

    By and large, my kids are good kids, and the way I look at it is, its cheaper than therapy or paying the school a premium for keeping my juvenile delinquent under wraps.

    So, yes, in a sense.. I do spoil my kids.

    Oh, I forgot one minor detail. The area in which I give my kids all they ask for is the most precious, valuable asset I have. Its called time and attention. (the pony? They can wait till their blue in the face..es vet gurnisht helfin!)

    #695714
    bpt
    Participant

    Dvorak –

    I read about that test too, but it was with CC cookies. It seemed to suggest that the kids who grew up in a trusting, honest environment were able to wait and see what happens. The ones that grew up where lying and cheating is the order of the day, ate the cookie on the spot.

    #695715
    blinky
    Participant

    dvorak-the “marshmallow test” was hysterical!!! The kids are so cute! Thanx for sharing.

    p.s. Any marshmallows around?

    #695716
    philosopher
    Member

    I have learned time and time again that you can not force others to do the right thing, particularly with telling them how they should raise their children

    I never thought I could force others to do anything. Why would I think so? But I am allowed to rant, to talk and to write about it.

    The only thing that can be done is to teach your own children what is right and wrong, and hope they internalize it.

    We live in a time of extreme materialism (which is the source of many, if not all of the “crisises” that we claim to exist). If you are happy not having everything, and show your children that you can be happy with less, Bezras Hashem your children will escape the materialism that surrounds them.

    Things are not so simple. Kids are not carbon copies of their parents, you know. Living in a world of consumerism and materialism may have an effect.

    A parent needs to be strong. A child needs to be strong (yes, kids are not spineless creatures). But if EVERYONE keeps on getting, getting, getting, it’s not easy to lay down the laws.

    For example, the neighborhood kids keep on licking ices the ENTIRE day. I really mean it. My kids are playing outside with them. When they come in asking for another ices “cause everyone has more than one” and I don’t let, it’s ridiculous that I have even have to be busy with something that should be common sense for other parents. I constantly need to explain to my kids (as I keep on doing so often these days) that “we don’t do what others do”.

    Why do people overindulge their kids?

    There is nothing wrong with giving. But there is something wrong with overindulging them. It’s not necassarily the big things in life, it’s everyday stuff that bothers me.

    I’m not saying there is anything wrong with having, but there must be priorities.

    I agree.

    #695717
    philosopher
    Member

    So, yes, in a sense.. I do spoil my kids.

    Oh, I forgot one minor detail. The area in which I give my kids all they ask for is the most precious, valuable asset I have. Its called time and attention. (the pony? They can wait till their blue in the face..es vet gurnisht helfin!)

    Yes, I agree. Very well said.

    #695718
    smartcookie
    Member

    Kids that get enough love and security don’t feel like they’re lacking anything,even when their friends have things that they don’t.

    I have a friend whose family is quite poor. But she was always happy and SO CONFIDENT with herself. This came from her home. She was best friends with her mother and she never felt a need for anything else.

    Now the question is how we give that to our dear children? I try, but I think I’m clueless!!

    #695720
    oomis
    Participant

    People spoil their kids for many reasons. Maybe they had very little themselves as children, and vowed to be different with their own kids. Maybe they feel guilty for not spending enough time both in quality and quantity with the children (BIG MISTAKE – that’s how kids feel a sense of entitlement later on). Maybe they just get pelasure from giving. Whatever the reason, it should be done with limits and seichel.

    #695721
    aries2756
    Participant

    It is really a matter of priorities and understanding the difference between “wants” and “needs”. Every child deserves to get what they need. However, kids should learn that they don’t always get what they want no matter what they see other kids get. One really needs to set the rules in their own home. No two homes are exactly the same, no two homes have the exact variables. Even two siblings will raise their children a little differently because the spouses obviously come from different homes therefore they bring something different to the table and their perspective and point of view changes the family dynamic.

    One home might be big on healthy foods while the other serves snacks all day long. Will you choose to feed your child sugar all day because your neighbor does? NO, you have to do whats right for YOUR family and that goes for every aspect of the decision making process. Your next door neighbor might have one daughter and she might have 10 Barbies. You might have 6 daughters and you might have limited them to one Barbie each. Does that make you a bad mother? No! Does that make your children under privileged? I don’t think so. Does that make that other mother over indulgent? Not really, after all she only has one daughter. She probably can’t help herself and it has nothing to do with what the child asks for, or maybe the grandparents, aunts and uncles have also bought her Barbies.

    If you and your husband decide that bedtime is at 7:00 and your neighbors don’t put their children to sleep until 8:00 are you doing something wrong? Are they? Everyone has the right to make their own choices and no one should be afraid to choose for themselves no matter what the issues are. You don’t have to follow the crowd and you don’t have to make excuses for your choices. You don’t have to look what others are doing, and you don’t have to judge them right or wrong. You only need to focus on your own family, your own deeds, your own choices and your own decisions and stop worrying so much about everyone else.

    #695722
    philosopher
    Member

    aries, you’re right. But it’s very hard to drag in your kids 7:30 when all the neighborhood kids are out untill much later.

    Do you think kids won’t resent being called in every day the earliest than all the neighborhood kids? There’s a limit how much you can do because you feel it’s right.

    That’s what I’m saying. It’s true that you have to stick up for your principles. But in today’s generation, if a parent wants to do what’s right, they need to tread a very carefully and it’s hard.

    #695723
    Health
    Participant

    The problem is that you have to drag them in. Children when they go out should be told, they have to be back at a certain time. If they don’t follow the rule, there will be a consequence to their actions. The problem in our generation is that people are very lazy and don’t want to put in the time and effort into child-raising. So for example coming in the house at a certain time, they say why should my kids be the first ones in? All the parents say that except for the first set of parents who don’t care in the first place. As a parent, the job is to give over to your kids what you feel is the right thing. You think your kids don’t respect you because of all the whining, but in the long run if you stand by your principles, you will be the most respected of all the parents in the neighboorhood.

    #695724
    aries2756
    Participant

    Health, you are absolutely right. No one said being a parent was going to be easy, nor making the right decisions for your kids was going to be easy yet it is necessary. You can’t raise your kids according to other people’s values. It is up to you to do what is best for YOUR own kids. If it is 50 degrees outside and no one else is wearing a sweater will you allow your kid to go out without on? That is only your call. Bedtime is bedtime no matter what the other kids are doing. Your house rules are your house rules. Maybe you allow your kids to read two books each night and others allow only one. Maybe your kids get allowance and others don’t. There are different rules in different families. That is something you have to teach your kids from day one!

    #695725
    philosopher
    Member

    Health and aries. There’s good advice and then there’s reality.

    First of all, I don’t believe that kids under eleven years of age can be held accountable to know the time when they are expected in the house if all the kids are playing outside. If a kid goes to a freind’s house, you can ask the mother to send her/him home at a certain time. But when all the neighborhood kids are playing outside then it’s understandable that kids lose track of time. If a child is over eleven, then you can teach them responsibility in this area. If a child is under eleven, the yes, the parent may have to drag in the kid. Some kids are naturally obedient, and some kids (from what I’ve seen is most kids) need to be dragged in when they are called in earlier than the others. Feel free to disagree with me that kids under eleven can know when to come and will come in on their own.

    aries, Nobody’s saying that you need to raise kids according to other people’s values. What I’m saying is that neighbors and freinds DO have an effect on our values, especially kids, whether you agree with that concept or not. Otherwise we would send our kids to public school, if freinds don’t have an hashpoah. Let’s be realistic. I’m not talking about making an extravagant bar mitzvah, for example, because all your kids freinds are making it. I’m saying in day to day life, yes one’s freinds and neighbors way of life and middos do make a difference and DO have an effect on one’s child.

    As it says in our shacharis davening after brochos, yehi rotzen…shetatzileinu…imaychaver ra, imishuchen ra.

    That’s why, in this day and age of excessive materialism, it is a balancing act between what you do have to give your kids even if it is little more than what you would really like them to have. If you are just going to stick to your guns and not consider what others get, you might bring up a resentful child that may rebel. So it’s a real balancing act to consider what is essential to the child, even though you don’t really think it’s essential, but in the broader picture it is, and knowing where to put limits.

    It is sort of like defensive driving. Even if you are a good driver, if others out there are not, then you can be right, but you can be DEAD RIGHT.

    So yes, you may have your shittas, and they may be good ones, but the way you bring up your kids must be with consideration of what others around you are doing.

    Therefore it’s doubly hard, because you need to give in a way that will not cultivate in your child a feeling of entitlement and also not a feeling of resentment. This IS because of the excessive materialism of others. This applies to all other values, rules and principles in parenting.

    Yes rules are VITAL, yes it’s important to let our kids know that we don’t do what what every Tom, Dick and Harry does, yes it’s important to stick to our principles, but we must do so with seichel.

    #695726
    philosopher
    Member

    I really like these ideas regarding how to not overindulge kids:

    1. Set an allowance

    2. If a child wants an item that is bigger than what you want to spend for special occasions, they have to work for it

    Also it’s important to spend enough time and give enough attention and focus on cultivating a close relationship with our children.

    #695727
    aries2756
    Participant

    Philosopher, in every generation parents complain how much harder it is for them than the previous generation. Nothing has changed. We each have our own set of issues to deal with. Do you think when MY kids were small I didn’t have to deal with the same problem? I did, and I knew my kids. If they didn’t get to bed at a certain hour they didn’t get to bed for hours and then couldn’t get up in the morning. I didn’t expect my kids to tell time or keep track of time. That was MY responsibility, and if I was late they were late. I didn’t blame them I blamed myself for not paying attention to the clock or for losing track of time. But regardless of the times I messed up, it was my responsibility to set my rules my way and then follow through with them no matter what the other kids were doing. One mother has to be the first to bring her kids in and then the rest follow slowly thereafter. Sure its hard, but that’s life.

    One mother is the first to allow her child to cross the street by themselves, or to ride their bike in the street, or to walk to school by themselves, or to take the city bus, etc. That mother has to decide that her child is ready to take on that responsibility. But just because that mother does so, that doesn’t mean that you have to even if it is hard to say no. AND that is the reality of raising children in this generation, the one before this one and the one that will come after.

    #695728
    tomim tihye
    Member

    While a close relationship with our children is imperative, the nature of this relationship must remain “parent-child”, never “best friend”.

    Also crucial is to remain guilt-free about whatever rules we decide. Dr. Haim Ginott (Between Parent & Child) says that a foolish rule enforced without guilt will not harm so much as a better rule implemented with guilt.

    #695729
    philosopher
    Member

    aries, first of all, I don’t know why you’re talking about blaming kids. No on is doing so. Not me, nor any other poster here.

    Second of all, I originally started this thread about materialism, not any other rule that parents have. You are the one that bought up the topic of other kids’ bedtimes and I never said I care when other people do take in their kids. All I said is that I DO have to take that into consideration.

    I’m sure childraising was challenging in your generation as well as generations before. However, regarding materialism, this is a very challenging generation. You don’t have to agree with me, but this is my opinion.

    You know areis, you are always busy about not being judgemental. And yet you yourself are very judgemental whenever you try to bring your point accross. It’s very annoying when you write your posts suggesting I wrote or implied things that I never did. I suggest that you don’t try to project from my posts what your FEEL I am projecting, because you are doing a bad job. Just stick to what I say, if you want to honestly debate an issue.

    #695730
    aries2756
    Participant

    “First of all, I don’t believe that kids under eleven years of age can be held accountable to know the time when they are expected in the house if all the kids are playing outside. If a kid goes to a freind’s house, you can ask the mother to send her/him home at a certain time. But when all the neighborhood kids are playing outside then it’s understandable that kids lose track of time. If a child is over eleven, then you can teach them responsibility in this area. If a child is under eleven, the yes, the parent may have to drag in the kid. Some kids are naturally obedient, and some kids (from what I’ve seen is most kids) need to be dragged in when they are called in earlier than the others. Feel free to disagree with me that kids under eleven can know when to come and will come in on their own.”

    Philosopher, I don’t know what your problem is. Honestly, you started this discussion about dragging your kids in, and holding them responsible and accountable right here, I brought down your quote!

    Secondly, just because you start one topic on a thread does not mean that it isn’t going to lead and veer off to include other things. That is just plain ridiculous to say. Your entire comment about me is ridiculous and it has absolutely nothing to do with me. It is your own self-projection. Maybe you are reading ME wrong, or you are just plain offended by any comment I make. You don’t own this blog and it isn’t up to you to control it.

    You assumed that YOU knew what it was like raising children in previous generations, but that is impossible for anyone to know because they were never parents in a previous generation. Every generation assumes it was easier because the previous generation had less. But in every generation there were rich people and poor people. In every generation there were the haves and the have nots. In every generation there were issues. In the early years when my kids were little I couldn’t afford to buy them the toys they wanted. When I was a kid my parents couldn’t even afford to buy me a real Barbie doll and I understood that, but I was a little envious that my friends had the real thing and I had a cheap imitation. Most of my friends went to sleep away camp, I didn’t even go to day camp. It was considered a luxury for girls at that time. Today even the poorest of kids manage to get into some camp. Parents are looked upon as bad parents if they don’t do whatever they possibly can to send their kids to camp.

    Yes kids have a lot more in this generation than in previous ones, but in every generation parents had struggles. Today, most of the families on your block are frum. If you are not home, your kids can go to any neighbor and there is nothing to worry about. If my parents weren’t home when I came home from school, of course my neighbors would take me in, but not only weren’t they all frum, many weren’t even Jewish. They were achte goyim. So they had to be taught not to give me anything but a fruit when I came home from school even if they gave their own kids milk and cookies. My parents had to worry that they shouldn’t give me any treif candy or cookies. You don’t have to worry about that do you? And they had to worry that they wouldn’t tell us stories about Yoshke, you don’t have to worry about that either.

    We played ball on the block with all the goyish kids. We had no choice at that time Boro Park was vey mixed. Every single block had Jews and Italians. Our streets were immaculately clean and groomed at that time. We all got along and were very good neighbors. We didn’t have the machlokes that we have today. But we did have issues. We had much of the same issues and many different ones. But in each generation there are child rearing issues. Issues with schools, issues with teachers, issues with clothing, issues with toys, issues with candy, issues with bedtime, issues with siblings, issues with giving too much and spoiling kids, issues with grandparents getting involved.

    Every family has their own set of issues, every couple has their own set of issues, and every generation has their set of issues, and many are always the same with a different twist since we now have computers, cell phones, and other new technology. But with every generation they had their new technology as well. And each generation complained about how spoiled their generation of kids were.

    #695731
    philosopher
    Member

    Philosopher, I don’t know what your problem is. Honestly, you started this discussion about dragging your kids in, and holding them responsible and accountable right here, I brought down your quote!

    I never said I didn’t write about dragging in my kids. I said you started that discussion. Here’s where you did:

    If you and your husband decide that bedtime is at 7:00 and your neighbors don’t put their children to sleep until 8:00 are you doing something wrong?…

    I never said I hold them responsible or accountable. In fact I said you CAN’T hold kids responsible if your kids are younger than 11 years of age. My kids are younger than eleven years. I said I have to drag them in. There’s nothing wrong with that. They are kids and they are allowed to act like kids.

    Secondly, just because you start one topic on a thread does not mean that it isn’t going to lead and veer off to include other things. That is just plain ridiculous to say. Your entire comment about me is ridiculous and it has absolutely nothing to do with me. It is your own self-projection. Maybe you are reading ME wrong, or you are just plain offended by any comment I make. You don’t own this blog and it isn’t up to you to control it.

    And where did I say you are not allowed to change topics? All I said was that you started the discussion about other parents’ rules, not I.

    You assumed that YOU knew what it was like raising children in previous generations, but that is impossible for anyone to know because they were never parents in a previous generation

    Well, I certainly grew up in the previous generation. I was the kids and I know what we had back then. The kids back then had MUCH less that today. There was much less the parents had too. The current generation is much more steeped in materialism, and I wanted to start a thread about kids being spoiled. You don’t have to agree that kids are more spoiled today. But you don’t have to take such an agressive stand against my opinion.

    Obviously you only know how to talk nicely to OTD’s (assuming I believe you about all of that). The following is what I find offensive:

    You don’t have to look what others are doing, and you don’t have to judge them right or wrong. You only need to focus on your

    own family, your own deeds, your own choices and your own decisions and stop worrying so much about everyone else.

    Yes I do have to worry about what other people are doing lgabeh how it affects my kids. However, if you have a different opinion you can say it decently. You don’t have to talk about judging (your favorite word). You can just say, in a non-threatening way, that one should look what’s good for their children, not what others are doing.

    Also you wrote:

    I didn’t expect my kids to tell time or keep track of time. That was MY responsibility, and if I was late they were late. I didn’t blame them I blamed myself for not paying attention to the clock or for losing track of time.

    While you are not saying it outright, since you were addressing me, it is obvious that you are implying that you are saying that I hold my kids responsible, not me, for their bedtimes, or that I blame my kids for there coming in late. You even say that outright in your last post, that I hold my kids responsible and accountable.

    I don’t know why you keep on repeating about past generations challenges. What’s the point? I said I am sure every generation has it’s own challenges.

    Overall, posts that are addressed to me are written in an agressive manner. Of course your going to deny that. I’m not assuming otherwise.

    The funny thing is that you write:

    In the early years when my kids were little I couldn’t afford to buy them the toys they wanted. When I was a kid my parents couldn’t even afford to buy me a real Barbie doll and I understood that, but I was a little envious that my friends had the real thing and I had a cheap imitation. Most of my friends went to sleep away camp, I didn’t even go to day camp. It was considered a luxury for girls at that time. Today even the poorest of kids manage to get into some camp. Parents are looked upon as bad parents if they don’t do whatever they possibly can to send their kids to camp.

    Yes kids have a lot more in this generation than in previous ones…

    Then you write And each generation complained about how spoiled their generation of kids were.

    Well, make up your mind, are kids today more spoiled or not?!!!

    The point is not what was in my generation or the previous one. You can wax nostalgic about it. The point is that today’s kids ARE spoiled.

    EDITED

    #695732
    aries2756
    Participant

    You talk about kids being spoiled today. I said kids are spoiled in every generation. You then analyze me and tell me what I think, how i feel and what I mean by what I am saying. Then you tell me what I think about you, how I should feel, what I should be saying, what I should be doing, what I brought into the conversation, what I shouldn’t have brought into the conversation, quote by quote by quote.

    Every post that appears on this or other threads is not a personal answer to you so stop taking everything so personally. It is not a personal debate with you either. It is a comment and a discussion about the topic and it is a contribution to the discussion. Not everything needs to be chewed up and digested and quoted and answered word for word and point by point. And not everything or everyone needs to be analyzed to see if they have a motive behind their words.

    Lets just call it a truce. You are entitled to your opinions as I am to mine.

    EDITED

    #695734
    philosopher
    Member

    You talk about kids being spoiled today. I said kids are spoiled in every generation.

    As I kid I wasn’t spoiled. Neither were my freinds. Cerainly we were not lacking in materialism, but it was not that things were needed as much as they were today. Today’s necesities used to be considered luxuries. That kids get a lot more is an understatement. The generation before that, the children of Holocaust survivors were certainly not spoiled. In Europe too, there was rampant poverty. In the more affluent countries such as Germany and certain parts of Hungary, there too, for the vast majority the children were not spoiled. Maybe they had a doll, some sweets, good quality clothing, certainly not what kids have today.

    I’m not saying life was easy in previous generations. I’m saying that every generation had their challenges. I understand that you have a different opinion. I’m just stating my opinion.

    The reason I opened this thread was to come out with concrete ideas on how to not spoil kids even if kids around them are being spoiled. That I’m frustrated with other parents who do give things without cheshbon because it does effect the way I need to parent, did make it’s way into some of my comments. There’s nothing wrong in expressing some frustration at this situation, just like when you express frustration at for example, the lack of ahavas Yisroel in the CR.

    You then analyze me and tell me what I think, how i feel and what I mean by what I am saying. Then you tell me what I think about you, how I should feel, what I should be saying, what I should be doing, what I brought into the conversation, what I shouldn’t have brought into the conversation, quote by quote by quote.

    Of of course I’m analyzing you. I’m showing you quote by quote where I feel you are overstepping the line by being judgmental and rude. Imagine if I were to say that your parents were stingy because they didn’t give you what other kids in your times had. That would be a disgusting thing to say. Well, I think it is the ultimate of rudeness to say that “I’m holding my kids accountable and responsible” for not coming in one time. Or other such comments.

    Every post that appears on this or other threads is not a personal answer to you so stop taking everything so personally. It is not a personal debate with you either.

    If a post is addressed to me, if you write philospoher, then I assume it is a comment that you intended for me. Otherwise I may simply write a post stating my different opinion, just as you are entitled to do so.

    Not everything needs to be chewed up and digested and quoted and answered word for word and point by point.

    That’s how I do it if I have points to make. No I don’t have to do it. I want to.

    And not everything or everyone needs to be analyzed to see if they have a motive behind their words.

    That’s right. That’s why I’m quoting you for you to realize that I am not analyzing or digging deep into your words. I’m simply offended at your words. It’s right there in black and white.

    You are entitled to your opinions as I am to mine.

    I agree one hundred percent. I just feel that disagreements don’t warrant being called judgemental or posting comments in a very disparaging way.

    Lets just call it a truce.

    Sure, I’d love to do so.

    #695736
    Health
    Participant

    Phil -“First of all, I don’t believe that kids under eleven years of age can be held accountable to know the time when they are expected in the house if all the kids are playing outside…”

    Why not? A lot of kids start learning how to tell time at 4 or 5. Most will know by 8 or 9. If they come in once in awhile to cool off or to get a drink, then they have to check the time, like my kids did. If they don’t come in at all, you can buy them a wrist watch. Some are less than $10. If your 10 year old doesn’t know how to tell time, you can buy them an alarm watch and you set it to the time they must come in. This will teach them responsibilty. Of course raising children is full of challenges, but with thinking it through, these can be overcome. People shouldn’t throw their hands up in the air and say “I can’t”!

    #695737
    aries2756
    Participant

    philosopher, I am a child of Holocaust survivors and I can tell you that YES many were very, very spoiled because parents were so ecstatic that they had kids at all, that many gave them whatever they could afford to give including lots of jewelry. And many did not. It was a matter of choosing your priorities. And in that same way, one must choose their priorities today as well. One must not be concerned about what goes on in someone else’s home. Parenting means deciding what is best for your own children and not comparing or competing with the Cohen’s next door. Sure its frustrating when your neighbors don’t believe in the same parenting rules and procedures that you do, but you can’t control what other people do, you can only control what you decide for your own kids and maybe other parents might learn from you.

    Right here in the CR you have no qualms stating your opinion and fighting for your right to say it. Well then you should have no problem standing up for what you believe in and explaining to your children why you feel it is best for them. Good parenting means you will not always win the popularity award with your kids. But that’s fine, you are not supposed to be their best friend, you are supposed to be their parent. And whether other children are spoiled or not should not make a difference to you. Yes I hear you and I know it frustrates you, but you can’t help that. Your job is to raise your children to the best ability that you can, and to bring out their best potential. Your job is to surround them with positive energy and make sure they understand derech eretz, mitzvos and maasim tovim.

    Kids are always going to want what other kids have. Kids are always going to want what is on the shelf in the store. Kids are always going to want something bigger and better each Chanuka, Birthday and afikomen. That’s just how kids are. How you deal with it, and I don’t mean YOU personally, I mean any parent, will eventually determine your child’s character.

    I am going to admit to you that in my neighborhood ALL the kids start driving at 16. I was the big meanie. I didn’t allow my kids to drive until they each turned 18. That is four kids that I did not let drive till their turned 18. I was the big meanie. ALL my kids friends were already driving at 16 but I put my foot down and said it is MY rule. My daughter was the oldest and then I had three boys. Honestly I didn’t think she was ready to drive and I wasn’t going to risk her life and the life of others just because everyone else was dong it. When she did turn 18 she was more mature and more coordinated and she drove well. Once I set the rule for her I couldn’t allow her brothers to drive before her. The rule was set and they all had to listen. And by the way, my husband was very happy since we pushed off how our insurance skyrocketing for 2 extra years a piece. Were my kids mad at me? You bet they were. Did I have the right to make that decision? You bet I did. Driving is a privilege and its not a right. Privileges need to be earned, and at 18, I felt they earned it.

    #695738
    philosopher
    Member

    Health, knowing the time is not the only prerequisite for a child to have the responsibility of being home on time. A child must be mature enough to keep track of time even when they are engrossed in playing.

    We can have a different opinions about the age where one can expect their child to come in at a certain time. I don’t expect it as of yet from my kids, nor do I care to enforce such a rule that my kids at the age that they are should come in on there own. As I said, I think eleven years old is the ideal age to teach kids that they must come in at a certain time on there own.

    People shouldn’t throw their hands up in the air and say “I can’t”!

    I agree. That’s why I opened this thread so that there can be discusions which would bring forth good ideas on the issue of “where we can find the middle way, the balance of not spoiling our kids while not being too restrictive”.

    #695739
    philosopher
    Member

    aries, I agree with your last post.

    However, I still think, and maybe that is not shayach for all parents as we each have our own style, that one cannot only make rules based on what one thinks is the right way. I have seen people, and I call them shitta mentchen, who for no money will they accept that they are too rigid in their demands of what they expect from their children. And it’s not that their demands are not correct. Rather they are not correct within their surroundings.

    Taking a little example of the silly bandz. I personally feel that kids should not get something out of the blue. I feel they need to earn it, whether it is finishing a chart or whatever or it needs to be a special occasion. But when all my daughters freinds got the silly bandz, and my girls asked for them, I got it for them. No, I didn’t get two, three packs for each of my girls, like their freinds got. My kids got only one. But I don’t believe I should have not brought them any at all just because I don’t believe in not buying for kids just like that. I don’t believe it’s healthy for kids to drool over what others have. So yes, they got less than what others got. But yet they weren’t deprived.

    That’s why I like the idea of an allowance as I’ve mentioned before, because it teaches kids to make their own (hopefully smart) decisions so at least when kids buy something, or save up the money they can learn lessons, such as the value of money.

    Big things, such as bar mitzvahs, camp, etc. children should not have a say and of course parents should do what is best for the family, not what others are doing.

    But again, my opinion regarding day to day life in the 21st century, I’m not talking what was in the previous generations, is that there needs to be a balance between not indulging and not depriving our children. And yes, there is the factor of the surrounding environment that a parent needs to think consider.

    That’s how I feel about it, but we as humans and parents may have different opinions.

    #695740
    aries2756
    Participant

    Silly bandz as their name implies are silly, and is a fad that will go out with the wind. But while it is here is making a big splash. You made a decision that you felt was right. Kol Hakavod. Another thing one can do, if they feel they can’t just give in and spoil a child is say, “OK, I guess we can buy it but we will just hold on to it till Shabbos or Erev Shabbos as a special Shabbos treat”, which will give it a little meaning. It will also get them accustomed to at least wait a little bit and not get accustomed to instant gratification.

    Another way parents can not indulge but allow their children to have the things others have is by earning them, as you said with charts, but since charts might take too long for something as small as silly bands, you can think of something else the parent and the child are working on. For instance, it you are struggling with bed time, or breakfast, or preparing their knapsack for school. If they do 4 or 5 consecutive days they can earn that prize or privilege. In that way you are not just spoiling them with things they want at whim, they are earning things by seriously concentrating on something they need to work on that they might not have necessarily put the effort in before. If the goal of accomplishing the task was not enough to get the job done, maybe the goal of getting the prize or the privilege will help motivate them.

    Or they can get the prize for helping Mommy prepare for Shabbos or reading to a sibling or helping a sibling with homework. There are many ways for children to earn a reward or a special treat for doing something special or going above and beyond the call of duty. When my kids were little I used coupons and I had a prize bags with different dollar values. Some had big toys and some had chatchkes. The kids earned coupons of various denominations for various jobs and tasks and would redeem their coupons according to the dollar value and the prize they wanted. If they wanted something right away they would turn the coupons in and get something. If they were saving up for something “big” they waited until they had enough. So basically THEY were in control of what they got.

    #695741
    Health
    Participant

    Phil- “A child must be mature enough to keep track of time even when they are engrossed in playing.”

    How old a child has to be to look at his/her watch once in awhile, eleven? I would say if you believe a child can’t look at his/her watch until eleven, try the alarm watch. I think kids know from around nursery/kindergarten what it means when the bell in school rings. Just like in school there is some sort of consequence for tardiness after the bell rings, so too at home there should be some sort of consequence for not coming in on time. It’s easier to blame neighboors and everyone else than being a good parent!

    #695742
    philosopher
    Member

    I would say if you believe a child can’t look at his/her watch until eleven, try the alarm watch.

    Ha,ha, ha. You can’t be serious. That’s really funny.

    No thank you, I’m not giving my kids alarm clocks. I don’t have a problem dragging them in.

    It’s easier to blame neighboors and everyone else than being a good parent!

    Why do you say that? Were you blaming the neighbors?

    #695743
    philosopher
    Member

    aries your coupon idea is an excellent one.

    #695744
    mazal77
    Participant

    My mother was the only child of holocaust survivors and I can say she wasn’t spoiled by her parents. My grandmother was sick most of the time(and therefore unable to take care of her) and my grandfather tried to eke out a living. My grandfather came to this country with a dollar in his pocket. They were not wealthy. My grandparents didn’t have spare money for extras. In fact, my parents got married in a friends apartment. They did not have money for a wedding in a hall. They had some close family and a rabbi.

    In turn my parents did not spoil us either. My father had a store that sold a few toys. I rarely got anything from the store. I hardly had any toys or games growing up. Anything I did get, was from winning a prize from Shabbat classes in shul. My parents did not give us allowance. I got paid some money from sometimes working in my dad’s store or earned it babysitting. I don’t believe in giving allowance to my own children. I feel that they need to work for it and realize that the money doesn’t come easy and they will appreciate things more when they earn it, rather then when they are given things. I feel that as long as my children’ basic needs are provided for, like food and clothing, then they don’t need extras.

    As some one mentioned the Silly Bandz fad , which are nothing more then glorified rubberbands, I am not getting them for my girls and can’t believe how much people are spending on wearable rubberbands for their kids. In my opinion,they are a waste, and have explained to my kids, they are in fact just plain, silly, rubber bands and you know what?? they understood.

    #695745
    philosopher
    Member

    mazal, I tend to agree with your philosophy, but I think it’s a scary road to travel. I personally know people who became very effected by having almost nothing, while their freinds had a lot (accordingly anyway). These people developed jealousy, the grass-is-always-greener on the other side syndrom, or the neverending craving for materialism.

    Of course, on the other hand, people who got this kind of chinuch also became very appreciating people, people who are not materialistic.

    I guess it boils down to really, really knowing your kids well amd being sure they are not growing up resentful.

    So while I may agree with your shitta, I’d rather travel the middle road.

    #695746
    philosopher
    Member

    actually aries, while your coupon idea is a good one, the drawback is that kids can feel an entitlement while they do their jobs that they are supposed to. I’d rather not give out coupons for my kids doing their duties which they have to learn to do anyway.

    But your idea is still a good one. I guess as with every idea it has its pros and cons.

    I think I’s rather stick with a small allowance, which also has its pros and cons.

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