Are you a Ka'eylah Jew?

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  • #602849

    You follow along the chazzan during mussaf, or the bal koreh during leining. Your favorite time of the year is Pesach, Shavuous, and Sukkos. Why? Well, during leining when they get up to “ka’eylah” you can no longer keep your exuberance contained. You must scream out ka’eylah! when the ba’al koreh is up to it. What is more, during mussaf, by the chazzan’s repetition or chazaras hashatz, you feel the need to blurt out every other word the chazzan sings, however annoying it may be. There is no halachic basis to this rite. You simply cannot suppress the opportunity to scream out “simcha liartzecha visason li’eyrecha” or “bichag hamatzos bichag hasvauous…” or even “tov umaitiv hedoresh lanu” How this started is beyond me, but I do know one thing: You are Ka’eylah Jew, and unless you either scale back or stp doing it completely, you are both bothering the tzibur and not following halacha, which demands we be silent during chazaras hashatz.

    So, members of the CR, are you (gasp) guilty of being a Ka’eylah Jew?

    #1203208

    yaff80
    Participant

    I once saw in the ???? ????? that someone who says words loud with the ??? ????? is showing off!

    I never grassped why this is so, but if the ??? ???? says it, there must be a reason for it!

    #1203209

    The Frumguy
    Participant

    A BIG Yasher Koach for noticing. Have a Good Mo’ed.

    #1203210

    Frumguy, sarcasm won’t get you anywhere. I just wanted to hear members of the CR’s opinion on whether they do what I described above, and why they do it. If you weren’t being sarcastic then I thank you sincerely. Have a great mo’ed!

    #1203211

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    In our shule, the baal korei waits until the “choir” finishes ENTIRELY, then he proceeds.

    #1203212

    adams
    Participant

    Good post. I differentiate here between the laining and Chazanus. As a part time lainer, I hate that singing along, it is distracting and you are trying to make no mistakes, or in some cases you have to remember certain trops,or pronounciations, if you don’t know them real well. I don’t like any talking at the Bima either,sometimes the Gabbai has to do something.

    For Chazanus, to be honest, I will sing along, only in 1 Shule where I am related to the Rav and feel a comfort level, and its also a small minyan, AND, it’s a very long davening, and he speaks alot, so there is a level of boredom by Mussaf. Other places I would just go out for a break if bored, there I can’t do that so easily.

    #1203213

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    When people do that with “ka’eyleh” I always think “yes, I know. Why can’t you be this helpful when I forget a trop?”

    #1203214

    happiest
    Member

    I have a real question and don’t mean to be making fun of anyone’s post by asking the q.

    In mid of chazaras hashatz if there is not allowed to be talking, is there allowed to be singing? I daven in a shul where there is gorgeous singing, where all the men get very into it. Is this not allowed to be done?

    Please don’t tell me to go look it up because I am female and would likely not understand a word I am reading.

    #1203215

    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    A ka’eyleh Jew lol. In our shul the baal koreh pauses just before ka’eyleh, like lihavdil by haman in the megilla, to give everyone their two seconds of enjoyment before continuing being motzi the olam in the peace and quiet

    #1203216

    The Frumguy
    Participant

    Flatbush Dude: It was sincerely the latter. I really DO agree with you. Have a Good Mo’ed.

    #1203217

    Think first
    Member

    I’m a ka’eyleh jew! And that’s the correct pronounciation. With a segol under the lamed. I’m also a baal koreh for many years and it doesn’t bother me one bit, I actually see that people are paying attention to the kriah.

    #1203218

    Sam2
    Participant

    Isn’t Ka’eileh only on Pesach?

    #1203219

    yungerman1
    Participant

    Flatbush Dude- ???? ????? ???? ???

    happiest- Allowed

    #1203220

    Sam2
    Participant

    Happiest: A lot of people say it’s not and their reasons are pretty strong. But the Minhag is very strongly not to be Makpid on it.

    #1203221

    wanderingchana
    Participant

    Now, how do I show this post to our “Assistant Chazzan” without offending…

    #1203222

    frumguy, I’m happy it wasn’t what I initially feared-thank you very much!

    yungerman – agreed, but for some reason I don’t remember it being as widespread as a few years ago – maybe I don’t have the most vivid memory though.

    sam2 – i thought there was some ka’eyleh during sukkos and shavuous too, maybe during yom tov itself and not chol ha’moed. However, also realize that I was referencing mussaf chazaras hashatz which is prevalent during all yomim tovim obviously.

    #1203223

    Toi
    Participant

    I have seen a MB that says that saying out loud with the chazzan is ossur.

    #1203224

    grief
    Member

    Don’t forget about the Simchas Torah versions of “ka’eyleh” – the end of each aliyah at the laining of ST night. It seems to me that “V’heim alfei Menashe” is an even bigger, more prominent ka’eyleh event than Ka’eyleh itself. Any good baal koreh knows to pause right before these words.

    I have heard that a certain adam gadol used to be the rov at one of the sleepaway camps. He would say Shema with the trop, and since he’d finish after everybody else, everyone could hear him laining the last part out loud. When he would reach “V’lo sasuru” the entire camp, or a large portion of it, would sing it together, out loud.

    #1203225

    Josh31
    Participant

    Perhaps nowadays some chazzanim appreciate knowing that at least some of the congregation is following him?

    Some also appreciate the short break it gives him.

    We sing “v-ne-e-mar” several times during the long Rosh HaShanah Mussaf for that purpose.

    #1203226

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    If I recall correctly, the only problem the Rosh had with saying words along with the Chazzen is that you might say Hashem’s name, too.

    When I am by the Amud I appriciate the humming along, as it gives a positive feedback that all is going well.

    However, I think Krias Hatorah is worse. Ignoring the Baal Koreh is like ignoring the voice from sinai. So sayeth the Sefarim.

    #1203227

    Toi
    Participant

    i do it anyway.

    #1203228

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Josh31: I appreciate knowing that someone is paying attention, but it’s still a little annoying — especially the people who pipe up with ka’eleh several words before I read it. As for Rosh Hashana mussaf, I’m not a chazzan (too young and can’t really sing) but the nussach provides many places during chazaras hashatz for people to sing so the chazzan can catch his breath including between all the uv’cheins in kedushat hayom.

    #1203229

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Well, the worst is those places that yell out, “Emes Torasaini Hakdosha”, while you’re saying your Bracha of the Aliya. The first time I got that, I though I made some kind of mistake.

    #1203230

    Josh31
    Participant

    “pipe up with ka’eleh several words before I read it”

    You are going too slow, and they cannot use a buggy whip on Shabbos or Yom Tov. 🙂

    #1203231

    Mayan_Dvash
    Member

    I am not one and I am personally against it, but I don’t say anything because it has become somewhat of a Minhag. Today, I got my enjoyment as the Baal Koreh was a Yemenite (in a Yeshivish/Chasidish shul) so no one knew how to “kaeylah”.

    #1203232

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    Ok, Ok, I admit it. I am a full-fledged, ko’eiyleh jew, I sing along with the chazzan’s mussaf, and enjoy breathing in the mixed smell of spring flowers, shmurah matza and Mom’s charoses. What is this tumult all about?? Ko’eiyleh is Koydesh Kodoshim!

    Personally as a baal Tefilla I enjoy when the oilom joins in with the special Yom Tov niggun by Chazoras HaSha”tz and everyone gets “into it”. It’s beautiful! As far as Ko’eiyleh is concerned, Les Man D’polig, it must be said B’Kol Rom! In my shul, there’s not a soul that doesn’t sing that one out loud! It’s what makes Pesach Pesach! Forget Matza, morror, and co. If you don’t say Ko’eiyleh in my shul you would be deemed a koifur b’Ikar l’chol hadayos! And if a guy would c”v lein Ko’eila with a rev’ii or segol, (*inhales loud*) he’d be thrown out on his head, and be put in cheirum forever

    #1203233

    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    How did the last pasuk of leining go by you today? Mine was very noisy… Lo sivashel gidi bachalev imo…

    Funnily enough, yesterday ended with the exact same pasuk yet somehow it was not the same choral response. Maybe after hearing the pasuk yesterday they were more ready for it today…

    #1203234

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    For those who want the Mishna Berura’s perspective:

    “Not only is it assur to say the whole bracha along with the chazzan which is a bracha levatala, even to choose random words (to say along) with him is incorrect because of the concern that the entire bracha might just flow out of his mouth. And surely those who raise their voices and sing along with the chazzan which is like arrogance and they should be rebuked because it is like kalus rosh.”

    M.B. 124:16

    #1203235

    unfortunately what the mishna berurah says is no longer paramount in the eyes of the masses (not that it ever really was but still).

    #1203236

    “And surely those who raise their voices and sing along with the chazzan which is like arrogance and they should be rebuked because it is like kalus rosh.”

    Claiming that such a practice is not in any way halachically problematic, let alone praiseworthy, would seem to also fit into this category of arrogance.

    #1203237

    Chacham
    Participant

    patur- nice to see you back

    #1203238

    FriendInFlatbush
    Participant

    Just saw this thread and figured Pesach was a great time to revive it. Anyone notice the “ka’ayleh” pandemic growing, or is it pretty much the same as always?

    I think that people generally get a lot of simcha out of doing it, so I don’t even know what to think.

    #1203239

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator
    #1203240

    tzaddiq
    Member

    if i was a baal koreh, just for kicks I’d read ‘ko’eileh’ with a revi’i trop

    hee hee

    #1203241

    Chortkov
    Participant

    A friend of mine was leining and as he got to “ko’o’ei’ei’ei’leh” he paused, so everybody sang themselves, and then carried on with his own SOLO koeileh. Everybody appreciated it!

    #1203242

    twisted
    Participant

    not that I am an opera star, but in my leining career, I used such an artistic azlahgeresh, that an educated tzibbur would wait for it without interrupting.

    #1203243

    chofetzchaim
    Member

    This week we have “kol-eyyyyleh”

    #1203244

    akuperma
    Participant

    I just noticed this topic.

    If you don’t have money for food on Hol ha-Moed, of course you can sell your hat!

    #1203245

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    No but I’m an “eichaaaaa” esah levadi jew

    And “eichahaaaaa” haysa lzonah jew

    #1203246

    mobico
    Participant

    I don’t know of a Kehilah that doesn’t sing liberally with the Chazzan throughout Chazaras ha’Shas of the Yomim Nora’im. Is this wrong l’Fi the Mishnah Berurah, or since the Minhag is to sing these words and only these words, perhaps there is no Cheshash that one will say the whole Berachah, and it is not Meichzi k’Yuhara?

    #1203247

    yerushalmi in exile
    Participant

    the avudraham says that in the paragraph of “ochilah” on rosh hashanah and yom kippur you should not sing along becasue it is only for the chazzan, sounds like everywhere else it ok to do so!

    #1203248

    FriendInFlatbush
    Participant

    yerushalmi in exile: Nah, you’re just trying to rationalize it.

    #1203249

    yerushalmi in exile
    Participant

    yes, but you see they were doing it already back then

    #1203250

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “I don’t know of a Kehilah that doesn’t sing liberally with the Chazzan throughout Chazaras ha’Shas of the Yomim Nora’im. Is this wrong l’Fi the Mishnah Berurah, or since the Minhag is to sing these words and only these words, perhaps there is no Cheshash that one will say the whole Berachah, and it is not Meichzi k’Yuhara?”

    See Sha’arei Teshuva 582:7

    #1203251

    FriendInFlatbush
    Participant

    Kuh’aaaaaaaayyyhhhhh’leh!!!

    #1203252

    no nonsense
    Participant

    good thing we are discussing this before SUKKOS

    #1203253

    FriendInFlatbush
    Participant

    Bump

    #1203254

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    chevra we are watching history in the making!

    On another thread I predicted that in a few decades. All sorts of reasons for this heilege minhag vasikin would be given.

    I was wrong!

    I heard from Rav Shlesinger in monsey a reason for this minhag (I dont remebmer it) This minhag is taking off faster than expected!

    Feel free to give your opwn reason

    Heres’s mine:

    Ke’eileh is a roshei teives for the four pesukim of geulah in MEgilas esther:

    Kuf- ki mordechai hayehudei

    Alef – ish yehudi

    Lamed – layehudim

    Heh – Umordechai hayehudi (It starts with a vav which is only one letter away so its ok)

    #1203255

    FriendInFlatbush
    Participant

    Perhaps it is a segulah for marriage. The letters in ???? can be rearranged to spell out ? ???!

    #1203256

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Your favorite time of the year is Pesach, Shavuous, and Sukkos. Why? Well, during leining when they get up to “ka’eylah” you can no longer keep your exuberance contained. You must scream out ka’eylah! when the ba’al koreh is up to it.

    Guilty as charged. When the ba’al kriah gets up to that point, I say it out load. True, I don’t scream it, but I do say it loud enough for everyone to hear. So far, no one has complained about it.

    The Wolf

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