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I am curious what people think.
We davven 3 times a day, atah chonen laadam daas, that Hashsem should give us Daas and Binah.
When do you feel this bracha applies and when do you feel you need to go to a Rav?If you go to a Rav for everything, why even have this teffilah? When do you feel confident to use your own daas?
If you do not go to a Rav for everything and use your own Daas, when do you go to a Rav?Have more kavana for the brachah, and perhaps you’ll know.
1. You need Daas to learn Torah regardless of whether or not you go to a Rav for everything. I always thought that the bracha is talking about the Daas needed to learn (and teach) Torah.
2. You need Daas to know when to go to a Rav.
3. You need Daas to know how to choose a Rav.
4. You need Daas to know that you should go to Rabbanim.
5. You need Daas to become the Rav that others are going to.
You go to a Rav when you are looking for daas torah. For everything else, you need to use your own daas. That’s what you’re asking for in this beracha.
Why do you daven for daas if you already have it?
Do you think you have enough?
Agav here is a pshat you may find interesting
The pasuk says אוקיר אנוש מפז ואדם מכתם אופיר
The Targum says אחבב דחלי מדהבא דמתיקרין מניה בני אנשא ועבדי אורייתא ממסננא דאופיר
So אנוש is דחלי and אדם is עבדי אורייתא
The male’s strong point is עבדי אורייתא, the female’s דחלי
נשים דעתן קלות but they have בינה יתרה
The Gemara in several places calls females אינשי
So pshat in אתה חונן is you favor males with דעת and females with בינה
Why do you daven for daas if you already have it?
I once had a different question: In the entire Shemoina Esrei (with the obvious exception of the First Three and Last Three), we start every brocho with a direct tefillah/bakashah. This is the only brocho which begins with an intro: אתה חונן לאדם דעת. Why is that so? We don’t start ברך עלינו by acknowledging that Hashem is the Source of all Parnassah?
I think the answer is based on your question. Everything else is [relatively] easy to recognize – with a little emunah and betachon – that it comes from Hashem. Health, Wealth, Redemption, Spiritual Connection. There is one thing which is harder to acknowledge – Intellectual Capacity, Understanding, Wisdom, Knowledge. It is very easy to think – hey, this is a natural talent. Yes, thank You Hashem for deciding to give me the talent when You chose my genetic makeup, but now, I am what I am – I’ll manage on my own, thank You very much. This is why we preface the brocho with “אתה חונן לאדם דעת – You bestow wisdom upon Man” – the word חונן is in present tense. Everything comes from Hashem, and our success in intellectual endeavors no less than anything else.
Yekke, beautifully written! What you wrote is brought down somewhere – I think it’s in the Sifsei Chaim on Tefila but I’m not sure (if not,, then it’s either in Rav Leff’s sefer on Shemona Esrei or Rav Shwab’s sefer on Tefila)
After some of the things I have heard recently about kids-at-risk, I was thinking about how it’s such a bracha to be smart, and not something to be taken for granted.
Sometimes people (including myself) think, “I also had a hard life, but I never considered going off the derech, etc.”
Aside from the fact that one person’s circumstances and difficulties can never be compared to another’s for many reasons, how intellectually gifted one is and how capable one is at doing well in school (whether or not they do) make such a difference in a person’s intrinsic self-confidence, and therefore in how well they are able to handle things, no matter how difficult their life is or how lacking in self-confidence they think they are.Yekke, I’m not sure what your point was in bringing in the link to the “calling cops” thread, but I think that thread definitely demonstrated that there are many people who need to work on their realization that it is important to ask sheilahs!
A sheilah had already been asked there.
” I’m not sure what your point was in bringing in the link to the “calling cops” thread, but I think that thread definitely demonstrated that there are many people who need to work on their realization that it is important to ask sheilahs!”
“Im ein daas, havdalah minayin.”
you dont need daas “ask sheilas” you need daas to make a differentiation between when a sheilah is appropriate and when it isnt. Of course it is sometimes appropriate to ask, but it often isnt and knowing that distiction requires daas.That thread involves a pretty lively debate regarding the interface between Da’as and asking Shailas, which is what the OP asked about.
“A sheilah had already been asked there.”
And many posters were telling the OP that a sheilah should not have been asked in the first place, and that he should neither listen to the answer nor ask again.
““Im ein daas, havdalah minayin.”
you dont need daas “ask sheilas” you need daas to make a differentiation between when a sheilah is appropriate and when it isnt. Of course it is sometimes appropriate to ask, but it often isnt and knowing that distiction requires daas.”Correct. And I pointed that out earlier in this thread. My point in my previous post was that while there are some people who tend to err on the side of asking too much, there seem to be many in the CR who tend to err on the other side.
You do have to ask a sheilah before calling the cops on a fellow Jew (with the exception of a case in which someone’s life is in immediate danger , only the police can help, and they must be called right away. which was not the case in that thread).“which was not the case in that thread)”
We are probably talking about different threads.
At any rate, no need to revisit it here. You asked how taht thread was relevant here. I and Yekke answeredOn second thought, when people don’t appreciate the importance and necessity of asking sheilahs, it may be anava that they need to work on more than daas.
Also, asking sheilahs too much is not generally a problem – the more likely problem is asking the wrong Rav.
If you always ask a rav, the bracha still applies. The rav is a person.
LU
“Also, asking sheilahs too much is not generally a problem”My neighbor whose house burned down disagrees.
BTW my Rav finally called back and said I shouldnt call since Firefighters are all gazlanim and would rob him. Its sure good I didint call
,” (with the exception of a case in which someone’s life is in immediate danger , only the police can help, and they must be called right away… ”
But that was exactly the point of the posters you are criticizing. You may disagree about whether or not there was a reason to suspect, but their point was that if you believe there’s danger, you shouldn’t be risking others while you check with a rov. They were claiming your exact statement.
“which was not the case in that thread).””
None of us could know that. Some took the liberties of deciding there was no danger, others claimed a need to be cautious when you are clueless about the details. That’s exactly why different people presented different sides of the possibilities.
SYAG – First of all, I very much appreciate your polite response to my post. I deliberately refrained from getting too involved in that thread because I am trying to avoid getting into fights with other posters and I was rather unhappy with the way that discussion was going.
I also appreciate your explaining where the other posters were coming from and why they responded as they did.
It is possible that they understood the situation that way and that was the reason for their responses, and I happy to hear your limud zchus for them so that I can view them more favorably.
If that really were the case, you are right that it would in fact be the correct thing to do to immediately call the police and not a Rav.
However, that is not what was happening there. It is very possible that it was an innocent mistake on the part of some of the posters, but unfortunately, it was a mistake that could cause a lot of damage.
(I will continue in another post because I am afraid of exceeding my word limit and getting modded).
The reasons why that case did not fit my above description are the following:
The OP was not talking about something that was happening at that moment. He was talking about an ongoing situation which required an ongoing solution. He was trying to figure out who the best people would be to help with this ongoing situation as opposed to doing more harm. He realized that he was (understandably) very emotional about the situation and in danger of over reacting and acting on his emotions. He did not think that someone was about to die. He did think that this was a situation that required intervention and he was unsure who the best person to deal with it was.
He spoke to a Rav who is respected in the community and who knows both the family and himself. Knowing both the family and the OP, the Rav had some understanding of what the situation really was about (and to what extent the OP was over reacting or not) and determined that he would be the best person to handle the situation (which may have meant that he was handling it himself or it may have meant that he was calling the people who he thought could best handle it – whether that was the police or Shomrim, or whatever).
Since this is not a situation that can be handled in a second, it is still going on. That does not necessarily mean that the Rav was the wrong person to call or that he is not handling it the best way possible. It might or it might not. Whether it does or not, it is an emotionally scary situation to be in. The OP is naturally very nervous (and since we don’t know him, we don’t know the extent to which he has a tendency to get nervous). He is still unsure as to whether or not he is over reacting.
The Rav is well-respected in the community, but it is possible that he was the wrong Rav to call. In that case, it is necessary to call another Poseik before calling the police. Calling the police on a fellow-Jew is a problem and can only be done after asking a sheilah.
If someone is pointing a gun at someone, yes, you call the police right away. That is not what is happening here. This is an ongoing situation involving shrieking. It has been going on for days, and the people are going about their business with no obvious signs of physical harm. The OP has no reason to believe that there has been any physical abuse. He never wrote that he felt that anyone’s life was in immediate danger.
In all the time, it has taken for him to post and people to respond, he could easily have called a poseik.
I suspect the reason he went to the CR instead of a more logical address (another Rav, Shomrim, etc) was that he realizes that he is being very emotional and needs someone to calm him down.
The last thing he needs is to have people frighten him into acting on his emotions.
What he needs to do is to speak to a reliable Rav (and not anonymous posters) someone who can hear him out and evaluate the situation and determine if this is a situation that does in fact call for police involvement.
You do realize, I hope, that you just made all that stuff up, right?
What did she make up?
LU
“I also appreciate your explaining where the other posters were coming from and why they responded as they did:Multiple people explained that to you multiple times
If the OP thought there was immediate danger, why did he post to the CR instead of calling someone who could deal with an emergency? Do you think he didn’t have kavanah that day in Shemoneh Esreh?
“Multiple people explained that to you multiple times”
Which doesn’t mean that it makes any sense (as I have pointed out multiple times), but I can still try to be polite, can’t I?
DY: “If the OP thought there was immediate danger, why did he post to the CR instead of calling someone who could deal with an emergency? Do you think he didn’t have kavanah that day in Shemoneh Esreh?”
+1
“That does not necessarily mean that the Rav was the wrong person to call or that he is not handling it the best way possible. It might or it might not…. The Rav is well-respected in the community, but it is possible that he was the wrong Rav to call. In that case, it is necessary to call another Poseik before calling the police.”
I realized that I should qualify my above statements. While Rabbanim can definitely make mistakes, and if one has reason to believe that his Rav was mistaken, it can make sense to ask someone else (if the second person is qualified to answer the question and if he tells the second Rav what the first Rav said), at the same time, one should not run to assume his Rav was wrong without a good reason.
In this case, based on the way the situation was described, I’m not sure if there is necessarily a good reason to assume his Rav was wrong. His Rav told him that he would handle the situation and he doesn’t seem to have a good reason to assume that he is not (I’m not sure that the fact that the situation wasn’t resolved in 3 weeks proves that he is not). It would probably make the most sense for him to speak to his Rav again and ask him what he is doing and relay his concerns to him before he speaks to someone else.
“Which doesn’t mean that it makes any sense ”
when you wrote “I also appreciate your explaining where the other posters were coming from and why they responded as they did” and when you asked “Yekke, I’m not sure what your point was in bringing in the link to the “calling cops” thread,” shows thatyou didnt understand (or you missed ) what multiple people explained multiple times
“If the OP thought there was immediate danger, why did he post to the CR instead of calling someone who could deal with an emergency? Do you think he didn’t have kavanah that day in Shemoneh Esreh?”
Maybe.
Maybe he doesnt understand that the issur of mesira doest apply in EVERY situation
Maybe he is afraid “If nothing is going on that will make living next to him uncomfortable”
Youre going to have to ask him.If we’re dealing with someone who has no daas, there’s no point in asking him anything.
If we’re dealing with someone who does have daas, then presumably if he didn’t call right away (or somehow intervene), he didn’t think there was immediate danger, but is concerned about the ongoing situation.
“If we’re dealing with someone who does have daas, then presumably if he didn’t call right away (or somehow intervene), he didn’t think there was immediate danger, but is concerned about the ongoing situation.”
Or, more likely, he unfortunately suffers from the same cognitive/emotional roadblock that has allowed thousands to suffer abuse right under people’s noses for decades.
Okay, so he wasn’t sure if he has no daas or if he suffers from a cognitive/emotional roadblock. So he asked his rav. Yes, we don’t know who his rav is, but he apparently thinks his rav is reliable, or there is no use asking.
Should he follow his rav, who knows as much of the story as he related (and possibly a lot more), or some posters who think that the fact that he used the word “shriek” means there’s a reasonable possibility of immediate danger?
“Should he follow his rav, ”
Straw man. Those saying he should call for help are obviously talking about before he asked his rov. Those who wish to ridicule that view keep insisting we are advising people to go against a peak. If (since) that can’t be respected then ubiquitin is correct, the conversation is long finished.
DY
If he thinks “there’s a reasonable possibility of immediate danger” should he ask his Rav?
If his Rav says not to call, and he thinks “there’s a reasonable possibility of immediate danger” should he listen?
3 weeks later if he again thinks “there’s a reasonable possibility of immediate danger” shouold he rely on his Rav taking care of it or should he call?I agree (and I beieve Ive satted it before) if he doesnt think “there’s a reasonable possibility of immediate danger” there is no reason to call
If he thinks “there’s a reasonable possibility of immediate danger” should he ask his Rav?
Of course not (unless the rav happens to be the best person to deal with the immediate situation).
Those saying he should call for help are obviously talking about before he asked his rov.
Which, at the time, he didn’t seem to think was necessary, and presumably his rav agreed (unless he told him to call the police or Shomrim or whomever the next time it happens, which the OP should have mentioned had that been the case).
So it seems that people are in fact telling him to disregard his rav.
Of course the general exhortation “If you think there’s a reasonable possibility of immediate danger, call someone who can intervene” is correct.
I’m just not sure why people are jumping to the conclusion that the case was such here (reasonable chance of sakana), when the Rav (and apparently, originally the OP) didn’t think so.
Could the rav be wrong? Possibly, but it shouldn’t be presumed.
Yekke – thanks so much for your vort – I was thinking about it today while davening mincha shemona esrei and during Yom Kippur Kattan as well – “Yodeiah ani b’atzmi sheain bi lo sorah i’lo chachma lo daas v’lo svuna..” And it gave me more kavana.
Everyone else – no time to comment now (but will try to do so when I have time), but I think Yekke’s going back to Yeshiva soon, so I wanted to mention that.
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