April 7, 2013 at 7:14 pm #608882
Ok – so we were having a discussion at the Shabbos table and the topic of gezairos came up. We had always learned that you can change a bad gezaira into a good one -ex: by davening, doing teshuva, etc. but you cannot change a good one to a bad one.
So – to me this sounded a bit contradictory when it comes to the topic of ayin hara. If someone “gets” an ayin hara, and then somethig bad happens, doesn’t it mean that a good gezaira was changed to bad?
Maybe someone can clarify this for me.
April 7, 2013 at 7:34 pm #943024
but you cannot change a good one to a bad one.
Are you sure you’re talking about a gezeirah, not a n’vuah?
April 7, 2013 at 7:34 pm #943025
Define “Gezeirah” please.
April 7, 2013 at 7:37 pm #943026
April 7, 2013 at 7:54 pm #943027
DY: That was for Gefen. How do you know what is a bad gezeira and what is a good gezeira? Maybe you got a cold so you stayed home from work so you missed the surprise inspection where you would have said something wrong and gotten fired.
April 7, 2013 at 8:07 pm #943028
The cold is still a gezeirah. Hashem could have arranged for you to keep your job without a cold.
Sorry for interrupting again.
April 7, 2013 at 8:28 pm #943029
DY: True. But it’s a good gezeira.
April 7, 2013 at 8:43 pm #943030
It may prevent a worse calamity, but the cold itself is unpleasant and was not necessary for the result – ???? ?????? ?????. I would call it a “bad” gezeirah, yet still thank Hashem for it.
April 7, 2013 at 8:56 pm #943031
I think I remember learning, and correct me if I’m wrong, that positive gezeiros to the klal can’t be changed but they can be changed if it was only declared for an individual. Also I think it was applies to actual nevuos, meaning if it wasn’t publicized then it doesn’t count.
April 7, 2013 at 9:57 pm #943032
gefen- I think you mean ‘Aveira’ and not ‘Gezeirah’. That intentional aveiros are considered unintentional (“Zedonos na’aseh k’shgugos’) and unintentional Aveiros become merits (Shgugos na’aseh K’zechuyos”) upon Teshuvah.
April 7, 2013 at 10:21 pm #943033
Interjection, that’s exactly what I was driving at.
Talmud, IIRC, charatah on a mitzvah also cancels it (I don’t recall that it turns it into an aveirah, though).
April 7, 2013 at 10:29 pm #943034
DY: The Gemara says that it does turn a Zechus into a Chov (Toheh Al Harishonim).
A Gezeirah that is signed and sealed can’t ever be reversed, but it can be slightly changed so that it becomes better/worse depending on what is deserved. It’s an explicit Gemara in Rosh Hashana (maybe the bottom of 17b?).
April 7, 2013 at 10:34 pm #943035
April 7, 2013 at 10:40 pm #943036
Ctrl Alt DelMember
DY: The cold is still a gezeirah.
Uh, Tzinin upachin b’yad ikesh?
April 7, 2013 at 11:04 pm #943037
CAD, good point, but I assume that some colds, if the sufferer wasn’t neglectful of their health, are indeed b’ydei shomayim (and I was going with T613’s example).
April 7, 2013 at 11:30 pm #943038
DY: We don’t know if it was necessary. Maybe it was the last zechus necessary to allow the good thing to happen. ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???
April 7, 2013 at 11:57 pm #943039
I think every tzarah that shouldn’t come upon us is a z’chus, but we still refer to “g’zeiros raos” and daven that we shouldn’t have yissurim.
April 8, 2013 at 12:14 am #943040
T613: I’m pretty sure P’shat in the Gemara in Brachos (4a or 5a) is that there is no one nowadays even close to a level in which they would receive Yissurin Shel Ahavah. Everything is positive in the end, but things that come to remove an Aveirah are still classified as “bad” in our short-sighted this-worldly perceptions.
April 8, 2013 at 12:21 am #943041
DY: I hear.
April 8, 2013 at 12:58 am #943042
Wow – I’ve been away from the computer since I started this thread and just got back on and see how many responses there were.
Daas Yochid – I mean a gezeira not nevuah
Torah613Torah – I would have given the same answer as Daas Yochid – that gezeira is a decree. Also your example of a cold is not really what I was talking about. Let’s say someone has a beautiful home, lots of money, good health….. and someone says something (even if not out of jealously) like “wow – look at them. they are so lucky….” Then suddenly something bad happens to them – someone chas v’shalom gets very ill or dies or the house burns down- you get the picture. So it would seem like the person had a good decree but the ayin hara made something happen- maybe?
Also a lot of times when ppl are talking they will say something like “if YOU get sick….”, then other ppl say “chas v’shalom – never say YOU, say SOMEONE. This is because we want to avoid an ayin hara.
I think my post sounds really confusing. But I hope someone will understand what I’m trying to say.
Interjection: interesting about the klal as opposed to an individual, though I never heard that.
April 8, 2013 at 1:09 am #943043
Gefen, what I was getting at is that I never heard of this concept applied to a gezeirah, only to a n’vuah.
Your case wouldn’t seem to be a reversal of the gezeirah anyhow; who says the gezeirah was to have a house permanently?
I think you’re also getting “al tiftach peh l’soton” somewhat confused with ayin hora (“YOU” would be al tiftach).
April 8, 2013 at 1:18 am #943044
DaasYochid – wouldn’t al tiftach peh l’soton and an ayin harah kind of be related?
April 8, 2013 at 3:54 am #943045
Well, they’re both supernatural, but my understanding is that one is based on words even without intention, and the other is based on jealousy.
April 8, 2013 at 4:22 am #943046
The Baal Shem Tov (I didn’t see this inside; I was flipping through a Kabbalistic pamphlet at a Sefardi Vasikin Minyan I once Davened at) is quoted as explaining Al Tiftach Peh as follows: The Satan is constantly being Me’id to HKBH all sorts of evil things that someone “deserves”. Thus, when you say “you should…” you are becoming a second Eid together with the Satan and that is then seen as actual “Eidus” in Hashem’s eyes.
April 8, 2013 at 8:26 am #943047
With all due respect to this pamphlet, this quote from the Ba’al Shem Tov is a dubious attempt at applying Choshen Mishpat lumdus to esoteric cosmic dynamics of which humans have zero understanding. I contend that such attempts should at best be ignored, they do more harm than good.
April 8, 2013 at 10:57 am #943048
esoteric cosmic dynamics of which humans have zero understanding
You and I have zero understanding; who says that the BESH”T didn’t have some understanding?
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