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Ayin Hara/Gezairos

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  1. gefen
    Comes here for family time!

    Ok - so we were having a discussion at the Shabbos table and the topic of gezairos came up. We had always learned that you can change a bad gezaira into a good one -ex: by davening, doing teshuva, etc. but you cannot change a good one to a bad one.
    So - to me this sounded a bit contradictory when it comes to the topic of ayin hara. If someone "gets" an ayin hara, and then somethig bad happens, doesn't it mean that a good gezaira was changed to bad?
    Maybe someone can clarify this for me.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    but you cannot change a good one to a bad one.

    Are you sure you're talking about a gezeirah, not a n'vuah?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. Torah613Torah
    (613)Torah²

    Define "Gezeirah" please.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Decree

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. Torah613Torah
    (613)Torah²

    DY: That was for Gefen. How do you know what is a bad gezeira and what is a good gezeira? Maybe you got a cold so you stayed home from work so you missed the surprise inspection where you would have said something wrong and gotten fired.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    The cold is still a gezeirah. Hashem could have arranged for you to keep your job without a cold.

    Sorry for interrupting again.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. Torah613Torah
    (613)Torah²

    DY: True. But it's a good gezeira.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    It may prevent a worse calamity, but the cold itself is unpleasant and was not necessary for the result - הרבה שלוחים למקום. I would call it a "bad" gezeirah, yet still thank Hashem for it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. interjection
    in·ter·jec·tion noun 1. an abrupt remark, made esp. as an aside or interruption

    I think I remember learning, and correct me if I'm wrong, that positive gezeiros to the klal can't be changed but they can be changed if it was only declared for an individual. Also I think it was applies to actual nevuos, meaning if it wasn't publicized then it doesn't count.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. playtime
    Likes to take himself aback

    gefen- I think you mean 'Aveira' and not 'Gezeirah'. That intentional aveiros are considered unintentional ("Zedonos na'aseh k'shgugos') and unintentional Aveiros become merits (Shgugos na'aseh K'zechuyos") upon Teshuvah.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Interjection, that's exactly what I was driving at.

    Talmud, IIRC, charatah on a mitzvah also cancels it (I don't recall that it turns it into an aveirah, though).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. Sam2
    The Even-Keeled and Erudite Shmuely Wollenberger from Las Vegas

    DY: The Gemara says that it does turn a Zechus into a Chov (Toheh Al Harishonim).

    A Gezeirah that is signed and sealed can't ever be reversed, but it can be slightly changed so that it becomes better/worse depending on what is deserved. It's an explicit Gemara in Rosh Hashana (maybe the bottom of 17b?).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Thanks, Sam.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. Ctrl Alt Del
    Wishes he could Ctrl Alt or Del some posts

    DY: The cold is still a gezeirah.

    Uh, Tzinin upachin b'yad ikesh?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    CAD, good point, but I assume that some colds, if the sufferer wasn't neglectful of their health, are indeed b'ydei shomayim (and I was going with T613's example).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. Torah613Torah
    (613)Torah²

    DY: We don't know if it was necessary. Maybe it was the last zechus necessary to allow the good thing to happen. יסורים ממרקין עוונות של אדם

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    I think every tzarah that shouldn't come upon us is a z'chus, but we still refer to "g'zeiros raos" and daven that we shouldn't have yissurim.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. Sam2
    The Even-Keeled and Erudite Shmuely Wollenberger from Las Vegas

    T613: I'm pretty sure P'shat in the Gemara in Brachos (4a or 5a) is that there is no one nowadays even close to a level in which they would receive Yissurin Shel Ahavah. Everything is positive in the end, but things that come to remove an Aveirah are still classified as "bad" in our short-sighted this-worldly perceptions.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. Torah613Torah
    (613)Torah²

    DY: I hear.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. gefen
    Comes here for family time!

    Wow - I've been away from the computer since I started this thread and just got back on and see how many responses there were.
    Ok :
    Daas Yochid - I mean a gezeira not nevuah

    Torah613Torah - I would have given the same answer as Daas Yochid - that gezeira is a decree. Also your example of a cold is not really what I was talking about. Let's say someone has a beautiful home, lots of money, good health..... and someone says something (even if not out of jealously) like "wow - look at them. they are so lucky...." Then suddenly something bad happens to them - someone chas v'shalom gets very ill or dies or the house burns down- you get the picture. So it would seem like the person had a good decree but the ayin hara made something happen- maybe?
    Also a lot of times when ppl are talking they will say something like "if YOU get sick....", then other ppl say "chas v'shalom - never say YOU, say SOMEONE. This is because we want to avoid an ayin hara.
    I think my post sounds really confusing. But I hope someone will understand what I'm trying to say.

    Interjection: interesting about the klal as opposed to an individual, though I never heard that.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Gefen, what I was getting at is that I never heard of this concept applied to a gezeirah, only to a n'vuah.

    Your case wouldn't seem to be a reversal of the gezeirah anyhow; who says the gezeirah was to have a house permanently?

    I think you're also getting "al tiftach peh l'soton" somewhat confused with ayin hora ("YOU" would be al tiftach).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. gefen
    Comes here for family time!

    DaasYochid - wouldn't al tiftach peh l'soton and an ayin harah kind of be related?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Well, they're both supernatural, but my understanding is that one is based on words even without intention, and the other is based on jealousy.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. Sam2
    The Even-Keeled and Erudite Shmuely Wollenberger from Las Vegas

    The Baal Shem Tov (I didn't see this inside; I was flipping through a Kabbalistic pamphlet at a Sefardi Vasikin Minyan I once Davened at) is quoted as explaining Al Tiftach Peh as follows: The Satan is constantly being Me'id to HKBH all sorts of evil things that someone "deserves". Thus, when you say "you should..." you are becoming a second Eid together with the Satan and that is then seen as actual "Eidus" in Hashem's eyes.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. old man
    Member

    Dear Sam2:

    With all due respect to this pamphlet, this quote from the Ba'al Shem Tov is a dubious attempt at applying Choshen Mishpat lumdus to esoteric cosmic dynamics of which humans have zero understanding. I contend that such attempts should at best be ignored, they do more harm than good.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    esoteric cosmic dynamics of which humans have zero understanding

    You and I have zero understanding; who says that the BESH"T didn't have some understanding?

    Posted 1 year ago #

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