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Men should look for an attractive girl, but B”H, probably 90% of girls are.
BTW, it is generally said that for guys, their resumes are their looks. Women are looking for confidence and success more than looks. They may not realize this, but even an odd-looking guy who dresses up spiffy and has his own company suddenly can look very attractive.
‘You really do just see what you want, dont you?’
Sac, popa has selective seeing….he reads and interprets it in his own delousional way….which im sure makes loads of sense in his head!!!
Yes, I was adding the two points.
A. You only find 15% attractive.
B. You agreed it is ok to insist on someone you are attracted two, although you personally don’t.
I therefore concluded that it would be ok for me to insist only on the top 15%. I have not taken math since 11th grade, but this seems pretty simple.
Everyone agrees that a man must be attracted to his wife. But people often don’t realize what will attract them, and how things may feel different went they are part of an entire person rather than words on a list. I know of a case of a boy who broke up with someone after dating a number of times because he just wasn’t comfortable with some aspects of how she looked, and it did not feel better to him even after they went out a few more times. (I think most people would agree that is legitimate.)
The funny thing is, that the girl he eventually married was in my opinion not as good looking as the first one, and she was even a bit heavy! So no, it wasn’t that he had some unreasonable checklist. Somehow in his eyes the second girl was more attractive to him. Hashem created the world in such a way that beauty is subjective!
I also know of a case where a girl broke off dating with someone because he was too short and it bothered her. The funny thing is this girl was short, as were her father and brothers, and she always thought she would not have a problem with a short husband. Somehow when she actually went out with a short guy she just wasn’t comfortable with it. She did actually marry a tall husband.
That’s why I think being “makpid on looks” on paper is just plain silly. One doesn’t really know how things will “click” in real life. If you are dating and find your date unattractive, then obviously it would be fine to break it off.
pba
Here is where your math is off. If I only find about 15% of the Jewish male population physically attractive and then I state that I need MORE than looks to be attracted to someone, A + B does not equal C.
Furthermore, we are talking about MEN not woman. I think many would agree that Jewish woman are of the prettiest woman in the world. So lets flip that statistic on its head, you can now look for the top 85%. On that you have my Haskama. Altho you should probably ask your wife first.
Sacrilege, are you implying that Jewish men are of the ugliest men in the world?
of course one should be makpid on looks, but not for the reasons you all and others give. the guy will anyways in a few years maybe gain weight, hair get gray or lose his hair. girl, im yirtza hashem, will have children and hard to look same as did when marry after several children. they’ll both get wrinkled, etc. and we all know that love based just on looks doesn’t last.
BUT, if you marry a good looking spouse, your children have more of a chance to be good-looking. and as darwin pointed out, cute children have much more chance of surviving till adulthood than do ugly kids.
After spilling out all the shampoo onto the bathroom floor, throwing his mother’s cellphone into the toilet, smashing all the eggs in their house with their little fingers, or worst of all eating up all the chocolate hidden in the house, – a kid who is simply adorable has a much greater chance of surviving. oh, and don’t forget those kids who wake up their parents during the night – an adorable smile given at just the right time helps keep everyone’s sanity.
and, we all know that teachers favor cute kids. and since how well you do in schools impacts what seminary, yeshiva, college one gets accepted into, and thus who they are likely to marry, i would say that boys and girls should be extremely makpid on looks!!!!!!
I once got a look from someone, and I was very ?????.
PY
“Jewish? Not all 85% UGLY. But yes, not attractive.”
Listen, you cant have brains and looks.
Listen, you cant have brains and looks.
Why not?
Ever read Miriam Adahan’s “Awareness” book? If you did, you’ll realize that 3’s are usually shallow.
What are “3”s?
who’s a 3? you’re saying that all people who care about looks are 3’s?
The book categorizes personalities in numbers. A 3 is someone who cares about their looks. Most ppl have 3 (otherwise, ur not normal). But, if somebody ONLY cares abt their looks they have more 3. Get it?
Sac’s calling me ugly, stupid, or both. 🙁
Everyone is makpid on looks to some degree. Is there anyone who isn’t makpid that their spouse not look like a skunk (aside from other skunks)? Some are just more makpid than others.
“Sac’s calling me ugly, stupid, or both. :(“
I could also be calling you average and um, average 😉
It’s important that you be attracted to your wife. Someone who insists his wife look like a model might only be attracted to that. If that’s the case, that’s fine – he shouldn’t marry someone he’s not attracted to. But remember, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To me, my wife is a supermodel. Someone else might think she’s ugly, but that doesn’t matter to me.
0710, not to be insulting, but IIRC, the Mishna says that the girls who weren’t particularly attractive used to say what you said to try and attract a husband on Yom Kippur and Tu B’Av.
im curious, if as some allege some girls are ugly like skunks (to take one recent comment above) and all husbands are makpid, how are those ugly girls getting married? (or is the allegation that these skunks never get married?)
I happen to think skunks are kind of cute.
Alcohol
Sheker hachen v’hevel hayofi ishah yir’at Hashem hi tit’halal
“Charm is deceptive and beauty is vain, but a woman who fears G-d shall be praised,” Mishlei 31:30
binayesaira:”BUT, if you marry a good looking spouse, your children have more of a chance to be good-looking. and as darwin pointed out, cute children have much more chance of surviving till adulthood than do ugly kids” “and, we all know that teachers favor cute kids. and since how well you do in schools impacts what seminary, yeshiva, college one gets accepted into, and thus who they are likely to marry, i would say that boys and girls should be extremely makpid on looks!!!!!!”
You say that someone should marry someone with good looks so their children can be good lookings so they are favored and get into Yeshiva/ Seminary???????? THATS WHAT LIFE BOILS DOWN TO?? which kid is cuter?? How about marrying someone who has exceptional middos and is OK looking? Their regualar children will be outcasts their whole life?? and not be accepted for being regular looking and not “CUTE”.
The people who judge externals and favor the cuter kids I think thats pretty shallow and low. Most kids are cute in different ways. Ok- so the neighbor’s kid who is messy, and has his menu of the day on his shirt and is constantly needing a tissue that you will argue and say you think he is cute? I personally won’t say yes BUT i would argue and say maybe he has a cuter personality, or a witty comment…etc..so Binayesaira you are telling me that life is all about looks????? I just dont understand your reasoning please try to clarify.
sticky: im pretty (no pun intended) sure that bina was kidding around.
rebdoniel: beautifully said.
What would one say about someone ugly but zees?!
I don’t understand the women posters here. On other posts they have a discussion about painting their toes, fingers and they probably paint their faces too. If they themselves find themselves more attractive by painting themselves, why shouldn’t a man look for something that’s more attractive to him? They are willing to waste time and money to do themselves up and I’m not even talking about clothing, but all of a sudden if the male just wants a good-looking woman (just naturally without all the paint)
– he’s shallow!
To me, at least, there are very few girls that are “ugly.” To me, each and every bas yisroel is beautiful in her own way, and what is attractive to me is a girl’s desire to treat her husband well, her desire to raise children that are ehrliche yidden and proper young men and ladies, and and her middos. I want an aidel maidel and a girl that shares my principles and Torah middos. This is what is beauty to me. A beautiful interior makes for a beautiful exterior.
I’m a bit taken aback with the emphasis on looks here. The non-Jewish world aggressively promotes superficiality, non-tzniut fashion and beauty pageants. By contrast, our tradition says, “Sheker hachen v’hevel hayofi”. Undue emphasis on physical attractiveness is chukat hagoyim and a symptom of assimilation.
I’m all for engaging with gentile culture — where it has something worthwhile to offer. Judging women primarily by physical attractiveness is not one of them!
And if our young men are only attracted to women who look like supermodels, there is something wrong with the way we are raising them. How many wives of gedolim looked like supermodels?
rebdoniel – well said. It’s too bad not everyone feels that way…
stickynote – true; if the kid isn’t good-looking, then they should have very good middos. but since it’s hard to have good middos, next best thing is to marry someone with money. then at least can buy very cute clothes, and as they say, “clothes make the man.”
again, the kid with the best clothes, latest toys, and nicest pencil case often can be quite popular and well liked by the teachers. and, most importantly, money talks – and can get kid into best yeshivos, seminaries, etc.
so you’re right, looks aren’t everything.
shlishi: 😉
health: what man wants a girl naturally beautiful (without the makeup)? the shidduch resumes don’t ask for a picture of the girl when she justs wake up – or do they now? it’s hard to keep up.
observeteen: the point of the book is to show how we all have different strengths and weaknesses – i didn’t read awareness, but rather the secular (shh) book that it came from. i could be wrong, but i don’t think that the point is that 3’s are shallow or that all guys or girls who care what their spouse looks like, are 3’s.
though, i have to admit, that i never could understand the 3’s. others i understand much better. 🙂
Shlishi. May I suggest you take a class in reading comprehension?
I am the author of the skunk comment. Please reread what I wrote. Then, please reread what you wrote in response. If you STILL think I alledge that there are some as ugly as skunks, please take the suggested class.
Sheker hachein v’hevel hayofi is being misused here. It doesn’t mean looks shouldn’t be considered. It’s talking about what makes a woman praiseworthy. It says Isha yiras Hashem hi tishalal – she should be praised. A beautiful person doesn’t deserve praise for it. It’s not from them, it was a gift from Hashem. Praise Hashem for it, not the girl. The Yiras Hashem comes from the girl, and makes her worthy of praise.
That said, when a man is looking for a wife, he needs to find her attractive. Does that make her worthy of praise? No. It’s just a basic fact – a man should find his wife attractive. If he doesn’t, it can lead to serious problems down the road. Sheker hachein v’hevel hayofi refers to a person’s perception of it. Don’t try to exalt yourself because of it. It’s sheker v’hevel – it comes from Hashem, and Hashem can take it away whenever He wants to. Yiras Hashem is something that can’t be taken away from a person. But that doesn’t mean looks aren’t important!
If you are “makpid on looks” to impress those around you, yes you are shallow.
Yes, Jewish men are generally less attractive than non-Jewish men. Part of the reason is that many of them don’t work out, are pale and white and have the same wardrobe and haircut. There is much less individuality.
Jewish women tend to take pride in their appearance (me not so much LOL).
You absolutely should be attracted to your spouse. Sometimes, I laugh at the “beauty” a picky guy ended up with.
Bezras hashem all couples will grow old and wrinkled together till 120 years. how important will your spouses looks be when they are helping you to the bathroom, or helping you eat 60 years from now? sure, its a factor, but to make it the only factor or most important factor might be a sign of immaturity. a bachur or bachura who has a rebbe or madricha that they are close to is always 1 step ahead of the game. everyone should have one.
SJS
HAIRY! *shudder*
obervanteen
Totally off topic, but you mentioned the 3’s in Miriam Adahan’s Awareness. Just wanted to remind you that 3’s in their Ideal state aren’t shallow at all!
BTW-since you read the book, I’m just curious, did you find that the system (Enneagram or whatever its called) oversimplifies people?
I read Miriam Adahan’s “Understanding People”, plus the non-jewish version (on which she based her book) called “Please Understand Me”, and I felt the same about all of them.
People are so complex and these systems somehow manage to catagorize all of humanity into on of 9 or 16 “types”. Please Understand Me was the best, though…What do you think?
I’ll go along with all the guys (and many gals) here, thats its extremely important for a man to find his wife attractive.
Now consider this. Esther had a green complexion! Esther had been previously married (in fact she still was.. to Mordechai), and was “touched”. Esther was seventy five years old!
The Gemora (or Rashi) says that Hashem placed chein on her, which is what made her attractive- despite her age, despite her green completion, despite not being a besulah. I believe that the Gemora also says that if one is liked above, Hashem places that “chut shel chesed” upon them.
So as many said, a person can find a spouse/potential spouse very attractive , while the rest of world wont see what they see. It can be due to many things, most importantly, that Hashem makes them attractive to each other!
mytake: Yeah, I also think so. Most ppl have a little bit of all numbers. Nevertheless, it really helps you understand diff. personalities. Just wondering: did you enjoy it?
sac…i think u meant balding *GULP*
mytake and observeteen: let’s have this conversation over in interesting random q – instead of hijacking this question, where everyone is in basic agreement anyways.
(yes! need to be attracted to who you marry.
and yes, boruch Hashem, guys find much more girls attractive than girls find girls attractive.
and luckily (since it seems like the girls around here are more picky in their idea of what’s good looking) more things attract a girl to a guy than just his looks.
just fyi: the non-good looking girls in my class were none of the older singles, they all got married before 21. whereas, the prettiest girl in my class is still not married.
binahyeseira -“health: what man wants a girl naturally beautiful (without the makeup)?”
Don’t know what everyone else wants -that’s what I want.
The makeup that women put on, 99% of the time, is for the rest of the world. Very few women put on makeup at the time the husbands’ are supposed to arrive home. I did a driving job once to pick up a married man up at the airport from an overseas trip. I brought him home and lo and behold, the wife greeted him with a shaitel and makeup, in middle of the day. And no she wasn’t about to go out shopping or elsewhere. They weren’t newlyweds and had quite a few kids. I was very impressed.
As I wrote elsewhere, Rebbetzin Abba Chilkiya did that.
ZK – I’m talking about someone in our day and age, not from years ago.
Health
Isn’t it sad that you were impressed by that? That’s so basic!
Mytake – My child – in our day and age, even when someone does something basic right, it’s praiseworthy!
I don’t wear makeup (with the exception of my wedding and siblings/inlaws weddings).
My husband knew what he was getting and is happy with that. I’m beautiful 24 hours a day, not just when my “face” is on 🙂
Health – yes. i understand your point, but my point was: how would you know what they look like without make-up – most girls try to look their best when going on a date.
by the way, i have a friend who only wears make-up at home for her husband, but she comes from a very chashuve family, and is not your typical girl.
and mytake – it is basic, but very hard to do in practice.
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