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Is it okay to be Mechallel Shabbos if serving in a goyishe army?
How does it differ whether you were involuntarily drafted versus enlisting voluntarily? Is it prohibited to voluntarily enlist if it will entail being Mechallel Shabbos either rotinely or even occasionally?
There is no heter to be Mechallel Shabbos.
There is no heter to be Mechallel Shabbos.
Not even if the enemy is shooting at you?
The Wolf
(waiting for nishtdayngesheft to come along and accuse me of saying something I didn’t actually say…)
If the goyish army will execute you for disobeying orders, it probably is acceptable to be medallel Shabbos (possible exception would be if they were targetting Jews in order to force Jews to go off the derekh – then one is required to die rather than do even the most minor averah).
In an actual situation of pikuach nefesh (actually quite rare, even for combat soldiers) you can preserve your own life, regardless (with exceptions that might involve avodah zarah or killing an innocent person, in which case preservation of your own life does not take precedence).
In a country like the United States or Israel, where a soldier disobeying order will at worst be thrown in jail, and probably given an undesirable discharge, there is never a heter to be mehallel Shabbos other than in a situation of pikuach nefesh.
Remember the typical sitation would be an order operate electric equipment or do paperwork in a training exercise or as part of routine garrison duty. Combat situations are rare even for combat soldiers.
So surely it is forbidden to voluntarily enlist
I suggest you contact your LOR before making such pronouncements. There may be certain MOS where keeping Shabbos may not be an issue. A database programmer, or a chaplain, for example, may not have an issue.
The Wolf
The Army can reassign you to wherever they need you, if necessary, even if it isn’t what you enlisted for. Also, most functions the enlistee knows off the bat that Chillul Shabbos (and a host of other aveiros) is a near certainty.
They can, but that doesn’t mean that they routinely do so willy-nilly.
In any event, I would advise you to ask your LOR before making such absolute pronouncements… especially considering the fact that there *are* frum yidden in the armed forces (including chaplains) and they may well have asked and been told it was muttar before enlisting.
The Wolf
I qualified my “pronouncement” to functions that have a risk of requiring Chillul Shabbos. That would probably constitute the vast majority of Armed Forces enlistments. Likely a chaplain is one of the exceptions.
I agree with you that many positions would pose problems. Do you have a problem with my suggesting that people ask their LOR before just assuming it’s absolutely forbidden?
The Wolf
No. (But they should be ready to accept his ruling even if they don’t like it.)
Fair enough.
The Wolf
Don’t you think people should ask their LOR before assuming something is automatically muttar.
Don’t you think people should ask their LOR before assuming something is automatically muttar.
Within reason, of course.
With regard to the subject at hand (going into the army), yes, one should ask their LOR before joining the army. I never implied otherwise. (My objection was to the absolute categorization of it being forbidden — that does not mean that it’s automatically permitted.)
With regard to the broader issue you bring up, that only applies if one believes there might be grounds for something to be assur. When I made a chocolate cake for the first time, I didn’t go to ask my rav if it was mattur. When I first began keeping a journal, I didn’t ask my rav if it was muttar. When I first became a ba’al kriah, I didn’t ask my rav if it was muttar. And so on.
On the other hand, when you encounter areas where there are greater shades of gray, then, by all means, one should ask a LOR.
The Wolf
Akuperma, purely as a hediot I challenge your statement: “If they were targetting Jews in order to force Jews to go off the derekh – then one is required to die rather than do even the most minor averah.” This sounds like the din of sha’at shemad, which goes into effect — so I learned — only if the Torah as such or the entirety of Klal Yisrael is under lethal attack. Even in the Holocaust, I recall no consensus that such was the case, it being argued that a Jewish population of millions (in the U.S.) was not threatened.
Actually what many times happens when you refuse orders is others are forced to be punished for your sins especially in Basic Training. (It is supposed to encourage comradery in the unit) so if you refuse to be Mechalel Shabbos in the Army, someone else might be forced to do 100 push-ups as punishment for your insubordination.
I am not 100% but if think if you are DRAFTED and you are forced to go into the army against your will you are considered ONASS because you dont control your circumstances.
Naftush: I believe that Pashtus Lashon of the Shulchan Aruch is like him and against you.
This question was dealt with at length in ??”? ???? ?????? ??? ? (???? ????) ???? ??, He was asked about whether healthy Jewish men should try to get out of the requirement of serving in the German army (probably in the late 19th century). He didn’t think the answer was as simple as many comments here want to make the issue. He says, “???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????” – For those interested – take a look at his teshuva inside.
The question is whether, if the work would not be done on shabbos, this might lead to serious danger to life. Basically the same criteria applying to anyone else commonly found working on shabbos, such as hospital staff, firefighters and the utilities (electrical, in particular – quite a lot of people depend on life-saving equipment at home that needs electricity).
Such people may be found in different branches than you commonly believe. I, for example, am an IT engineer working for an IT company that supplies absolutely critical equipment to, amongst others, sectors such as the government and medical. It’s public information (just checked) that amongst our customers is the Israeli Air Force. Imagine one of their critical systems would stop working on leil shabbos and they need someone to fix it *now* or, maybe, they won’t be able to operate the computers that keep the skies safe? (DISCLAIMER: I have not the slightest clue what the Air Force exactly does with the equipment the company provides – I’m just wildly guessing here!!!) Should we just not let the UAVs fly over Gaza that shabbos, thereby *not* being able to spot terrorists about to launch rockets on Sderot that might kill someone? Should we shut down the computers that analyze the radar images? Should we shut down the intelligence-gathering systems?
There’s a situation that is clear and obvious pikuach nefesh, isn’t it? So just to show, the military definition of ‘pikuach nefesh’ is not necessarily that of a combat soldier with a rifle on a battlefield. In fact, it could theoretically even involve *me* sitting right here in the UK working for an IT company. Pretty unlikely but possible. This also shows that one can hardly consider teshuvos from the 19th century as relevant to today’s situation.
Similarly to what I said, the same applies to cyber-warfare, for example. What if a giant attack against Israel’s (or the UK’s or the US’s) critical infrastructure takes place on shabbos and the mission-critical systems provided by some company don’t work? Should we then just allow the Iranian attackers to do whatever they want? It seems logical to me that the employees of that company must be available for assisting on shabbos if needed for the purpose of protecting the nation’s critical infrastructure.
If I’m not mistaken, during the revolt of the Maccabees, the Greeks got the idea to attack Jews on shabbos. After they were slaughtered because they wouldn’t fight on Shabbos, chazal issued a takana permitting fighting on Shabbos
Source?
First Book of the Maccabees
The Book of the Maccabees has no status in Judaism.
The Chofetz Chaim wrote a sefer for soldiers. One can and should reference that rather than paskening in the CR.
I have never been through it, but I feel like every detail relevant to this situation is discussed in the Tzitz Eliezer’s Hichos Medinah.
Bunks
Why to you make such blanket statements. It wasn’t included in Tanach but it doesn’t mean it has no status or validity.
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