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“every Jew today (who isn’t a violator in this area himself) is halachicly authorized (as we learn from Pinchas) to extrajudicially slay a Jew and the gentile partner while they’re engaged in this transgression.”
Joseph, that should be your leading pitch in your Kiruv lectures
Joseph’s Primer for the Kiruv Professional:
1. Whenever you meet a non-observant Jew, make sure to tell him the magnitude of his aveiros.
2. Remind him that had he lived 150 years ago, he would have been subject to stoning, lashes, etc.
3. Before all else, teach him Yiddish so that he can communicate with his fellow Yidden across the globe. The feeling of connection to all other Yiddish speakers will surely be the key in making him frum.
4. If he has kids, remind him that liberal use of the stick will ensure that his kids follow the right path.
5. If for some reason, the above does not lead to success, consult the CR to figure out why.
5. If all the above fails to make him frum, then just ram him through with a spear.Joseph – you wanted to know how to mkarev this guy. Stabbing him and his wife with a spear isn’t going to do the trick. (Because he would be dead). It seems your real goal is how to force others to observe the Torah. Maybe you can try and get a Sanhedrin set up. Or you could try buying a spear and the rest of us will wait to read the headlines on YWN.
It’s 100% true that we someone shouldn’t marry a goy. And it would be wonderful if a beis din could take care of it. But they can’t. So we have to deal with the situation we are given. That doesn’t mean we tell people to intermarry. You could give shiurim about the halacha and hashkaficly of the Torah. You coudl daven that we should more clearly see Hashem and understand his Torah. I don’t see any more effective approach. We shouldn’t be like reform changing the rules and accepting what they do. But you asked how to mekarev someone intermarried. And that’s the question I’m trying to answer.
Mek5,
“to whom this is relevant should contact his local orthodox beis din and local orthodox Rav and not trust what unknown people say online”Best comment!
I have read the comments, and no one even quoted any sources; everyone is just saying what they feel, think or think they saw/ heard etc. All I know, there are exceptions in all cases, and you cannot compare any case. There were cases were they did permit conversions, even for the sake of marriage (I’m not speaking about conservative/reform kind of cases or even liberal MO – I’m talking about true poskim prior to the times of Reform, like Rav Shlomo Kluger ZTL etc.), wherein of course, they accepted all mitzvos. It is basically up to the Bes Din to decide and, in ‘some’ cases there are exceptions.
If it is REALLY relevant l’Halacha, I can look it up, and post just the Marei makomos and you can represent it to your Rabbi – to ask a Posek (Note, this is not a decision that is up to your typical local Rabbi).
But again there has to be Kabalos Ol haMitzvos according to all. Thus, is a reason why all reform geyoris are null. Not only because they convert for marriage reasons.
(And yes, you can convert for marriage reasons and still accept mitzvos. E.g. Ivanka Trump did and is considered a proper conversion, at least after the deed has been done)JJ2020 Oh come on, don’t try to put off someone who sticks to Halacha and is not willing to compromise on it as out of touch with reality. I don’t know about Joseph but I personally know plenty of Jews who are intermarried and their stories. From what I have seen, it is simply a matter of priorities. Falling in love is a chemical reaction in the brain. Anyone who wants to marry a Jew can do so, it just depends how much effort he/she wants to put into it. I know plenty of freie Yidden who have made it very clear to their children that they should marry a Jew, so not being frum is not an excuse to intermarry. Geirus is not a way to clean up people’s mistakes, but a way for people who, without ulterior motives, want to become Shomrei Torah u’Mitzvos. Growing up in a community with many converts for the sake of marriage, I can tell you it totally changes the nature of a community and its way of thinking. Most guys will put marrying Jewish off their top priority list as they think they will be able to ‘convert’ any girl they will get into a serious relationship with. Intermarriage is the biggest threat to Klal Yisroel and those who are not willing to call it out as a problem or try to solve it through some loophole that bedieved a geirus for marriage might be kosher are themselves part of the problem.
Sorry, I just noticed ‘ubiquitin’ did post a source. Finally!
BTW – I recall many disagreeing with his p’sak like the Minchas Yiztchok, R SZ Aurbach…
Bottom line – it all depends in the circumstances, there is no blanket p’sak of how and what we say “tekanos Hashavin”.Joseph,
So in your mind it is worse than Chllul Shabos or nevelos?
An issur that is not even punishable with Malkos, and again is ONLY in public i.e. in presence of 10 and ONLY via a true Kenoie (yes, i know everyone calls themselves a Kenoi these days – but not those and no one nowadays can claim so)Yanky- I didn’t comment about what people said about converting people. Its true that some secular Jews are makpid not to intermarry but 80% or so aren’t. The point is telling people what to do doesn’t work. Try getting people to stop using internet, dress tzinusly, stop talking in shul or whatever else. Frum or not frum. Going around bossing people around doesn’t make people change. At least it doesn’t work for me maybe it does for others.
Huju: Remember that people don’t always tell the truth on the Internet, and that people pretend to be people they are not. In fact, if I remember correctly, Joseph himself has posted under various different names in the CR, and once the Mods realized it, they often just put “Joseph” as his subtitle. I don’t believe he’s actually a kiruv professional. For all we know, the other person on this thread agreeing with Joseph is also Joseph. Yes, if it were true it would be shocking.
Of course, people should never marry a non-Jew with the expectation that they were convert, and I’ve never heard of an Orthodox community where this is common (of course, it’s common among the heterdox). It’s wrong in the first place, and most of the time it wouldn’t work out. (Anyway, we’re not talking about people raised Orthodox here — we’re talking about secular Jews who marry non-Jews.)
But sometimes a non-Jew married to a Jew decides on their own they want to convert, and if the spouse is willing to become a BT (perhaps usually they’re not, but when they are), then it works out. The same goes for the convert: if secular-Jew-turned-wannabe-BT is married to a non-Jew, sometimes she learns about Yiddishkeit and decides she wants to convert for the right reason. No beis din will convert someone under such circumstances unless the non-Jew can honestly say she is making a lifetime commitment to Yiddishkeit and will remain totally frum even if they later divorce. In such cases, they are thus not converting for the sake of marriage, they are converting l’shem shamayim.
All I’m saying is that a new BT should not immediately leave his non-Jewish wife, since it makes sense to give her time to see if she will decide she wants to commit to accepting the yoke of the mitzvos. The same goes for new BTs married to secular Jews — don’t ditch her right away just because she’s reluctant to all of the sudden move to Boro Park, put on a sheitel and start going to the mikvah every month. Rash, hasty decisions often result in less than desirable results. In fact, Rav Arush counsels against divorce at all in such situations (BTs married to Jews) (as explained at length in his acclaimed marriage manual, Garden of Peace.)
“This is even before getting to the problems with why she cannot convert. Even if you assume she could convert in the future, no one disputes as long as she’s not Jewish that he’s absolutely forbidden to be with her for even one more day.”
She can convert. All major batei din in North America, charedi and RCA included, convert people under these circumstances (a non-Jew married to a Jew). The kind of kiruv you’re advocating is just not the kind of kiruv that is actually practiced.
Yes, it is a sin to live with her, but becoming frum is a slow process, and rabbis counseling BTs have learned from experience (and da’as Torah) not to demand they change everything at once and stop all aveiros immediately. It’s also a grave sin every Shabbos he doesn’t observe properly. No one advocates going from 100% desecrating Shabbos to 100% observing Shabbos in one week — it simply isn’t possible without burning someone out.
“With a non-religious you should insist that she at least keep the bare minimum taharas hamishpacha.”
So the moment he realizes the Torah is true, he should leave her unless she immediately starts going to the mikvah and stops passing him things while she’s niddah? Sometimes it takes a few months for her to come around. If people acted according to your advice there would be so many unnecessarily broken homes.
Joseph, how did you develop such a knack for being wrong? Being with a gentile for marriage is a lav that isn’t explicit in the Torah (the peshat is that it only applies to the seven nations) so there are no malkot d’Oraita. Being with one for other reasons is a rabbinic prohibition (Chazal decreed that they have the status of zavim). It is true that the Zohar very strongly condemns a man (but not a woman) who does this but only because his biological children will not be Jewish (so if she can’t or won’t it would seem not to apply).
Goyta is a pejorative your issue is with him why do you feel the need to demean her she broke no statutes.
Yes, I’m not saying that we should tell people they must stay with their non-Jewish spouse. But we don’t demand they leave, even if they ask us what they should do — that’s up to the individual. Every BT does what they do on their own time, so why not, while they’re doing that, give the non-Jew a chance to decide is she wants to convert? In many cases she does, with all her heart. It makes sense, as much as anything makes sense in the messy process of becoming a BT.
“Same with a non-religious woman. Ideally he must stop living with her immediately. ”
Not according to Rav Arush in Garden of Peace. See it inside. No BT can demand his wife become a BT overnight or else. People have to be practical. No kiruv rabbi advocates radical overnight changes and demands for such of one’s spouse, because it’s counterproductive.
“Regarding conversion, Chareidi butei dinim absolutely do not convert intermarried spouses.”
This is not true. I know of cases myself in charedi batei din. In Israel there are authorities who forbid someone “married” to a non-Jew to convert (I think R’ Shternbuch is an example), but in the US it certainly happens. It is typical to require a period of symbolic separation (while still living in the same home) between the spouses as the gerus is finalized.
Interestingly, think of the case of the non-Jew married with two kids to a secular Jew, and the non-Jew on her own wants to convert. (This scenario is pretty common….) The only way for her and the kids to convert is if they stay together and he slowly becomes religious enough to make it happen! If she leaves him right away (which would be your advice always), she will never convert (and he will never make teshuvah), because the kids will be eating cheeseburgers with daddy every other week, when he has custody, and the beis din can’t convert kids like that in such a situation, and they can’t convert her if she has goyish kids who will be living with her. But if she bides her time and plays her cards right, within a few months or years, he’ll become religious enough and she and the kids can convert.
Joseph you are creatign aStrawman
Idont think anybody is suggesting that it is ok for him to remianmarried.
The question is should we try to be mekarev him anyway.ie Should we get an intermarried Jew to wear tefillin, keep Kosher, keep shabbos even if he will remain intermarried.
what to do about his intermarriage, that can be dealt whith later. It is rare for AbaalTeshuva to be mekabel the entire torah at once.
Gaon
“BTW – I recall many disagreeing with his p’sak like the Minchas Yiztchok, R SZ Aurbach…”That is true for any pesak you find on any subject. Id id not mean to imply that it is universaly held.
“Bottom line – it all depends in the circumstances, there is no blanket p’sak of how and what we say “tekanos Hashavin”.
Of course it depends, again Im sorry if I implied there isany blanket statment for suchcomplicatedissues.
ALthoughgenerally for “takanas Hashavim”we are meikel. For example, meikarhadin most poskim say it is assur to invite irreligous JEws for meal on Shabbos, yet in practice it is allowed, and doneJoseph, there is a couple in my community who came from the former Soviet Union intermarried. The husband converted and they are now fully observant.
Yytz, he can’t demand that she become a BT overnight or else? What about kashrut and taharat hamispacha?
I’m sorry Joseph
I missed that line, thank you for pointing it out. (although it was after your original comment)yytz
“But we don’t demand they leave, even if they ask us what they should do — that’s up to the individual”Im not sure if you meant it as simply as stated. but of course if a Yid asks “what they should do” it is absolutely unacceptable to tell him he can be oiver an isur. On this point Joseph is correct
If he deosnt ask and you are helping him keep other mitzvos, the intermarrige can be dealt with later. But if he asks“Neville, what about marrying the children of someone who cheats in business or is a baal lashon hara?”
Is this a joke based on my post on another thread? Please tell me you aren’t serious.
ubiquitin
“Although generally for “takanas Hashavim”we are meikel”
Agreed on the concept and in theory you are correct. However, allow me to elaborate, when it comes to ultra-sensitive issues as Ishus and Yichus. There is no definite p’sak or procedure and, cannot be, as the Geirus is entirely up to B’D, and these cases need guidance of Gedola Horaha, due to the gravity of the issue ruled as a case-by-case basis. see res. Divrei Chaim A”Hv vol 2 (ch. 36 at the end ). Gedolim have to make sure that the “heter” does not become abused as kind of a tool for all who just want to intermarry, it can only be used as a last resort, and that is up to the B’D to investigate and decide.
That is why in many cases, many will not permit it, as it became normal procedure and instead of being used as a ‘tekanos haShovin’ it became a Tikon L’evaryon’.?
ואהבת לרעך כמוך….
whatever you do don’t force ….
But of course you should try to be mekarev the person“he can’t demand that she [secular Jewish wife] become a BT overnight or else? What about kashrut and taharat hamispacha?”
He can demand, but in the real world he may not get very far. BTs often become observant gradually. This is normal. Halachically it would be ideal if he and his wife would become observant overnight, but that’s generally impossible. Kiruv rabbis are generally sensitive to this reality and will not put too much pressure on him to become frum overnight or demand she do so, and let him become observant in his own pace. What the BT does and how he does it is his business. It is often better to be a bit slow and messy and eventually become a full-fledged BT with his wife and married and kids intact and happy, than to demand immediate changes and end up miserable, divorced, full of regrets and with messed-up kids and an even more anti-religious ex-wife. Of course, it would be ideal if the wife immediately agrees to do the minimum to ensure he will not be committing aveiros, and he should try his best — sometimes that works. But if that is not possible, then it’s not possible. We don’t counsel people to do aveiros, but at the same time kiruv workers have realized that too much speed or pressure can be counterproductive. Rav Arush’s discussion of this issues notes that there is typically a way for the man to avoid sinning even if his wife is not yet committed to full observance.
In practice, people usually don’t decide overnight they want to be BTs. They slowly become more observant and knowledgeable, still unsure of what they believe and what their future will be, until they finally realize they believe in this 100% and are going to go all the way. The wife can be a partner in that process.
“ubiq, yytz is suggesting it is okay for him to remain with her.”
Not that it’s “OK,” but often a new wannabe BT might decide to give her some time to decide if she wants to convert, and a kiruv rabbi generally won’t try to talk him out of it (or try to convince him to leave if he hasn’t decided.) Sometimes after meeting some frum Jews, reading some kiruv-oriented books and so on they commit to Yiddishkeit and convert l’shem shamayim. It’s also worth taking some time to do genealogical research to make sure she’s not Jewish — sometimes she actually is and never knew it.
“Absolutely incorrect. When asked we most certainly do tell him to leave. If a new BT asked if he should quit his Shabbos job will you suggest not advising him to stop working on Shabbos since “that’s up to the individual”? Completely absurd. Especially if he asks!”
We don’t demand they leave–who are we, Pharaoh? We’ll tell them the truth, yes, it’s a sin. If it’s a rotten relationship, he wants to leave her anyway, and they have no kids, then why not leave? But if he loves her and she is open to learning about Yiddishkeit and exploring conversion as he becomes more observant, then he can decide, why not give her some time? If it works, it works. If not, not. This is how the real world works, and there have been successful, valid conversions along these lines. Sometimes it is the non-Jew starting the process of becoming observant together, and sometimes it is the Jew, and sometimes it is both of them equally.
“Chareidi butei dinim absolutely do not convert intermarried spouses.”
Yes they do, at least here in North America.
Please try to keep your posts shorter. Thank you.
Yytz, what happens if she moves more slowly and refuses to go to the mikva when he realizes how serious that is? As for Shabbat, in the uS there are anti-discrimination laws. While they have loopholes for employers who need people to come on Shabbat (very few in office jobs) they often only need a limited number of people. If he has a good relationship with his boss and fellow employees (which he should strive to have anyway) he can most likely get a non-Jewish employee to cover for him. If the company pays extra for weekend work the non-Jew will jump at the chance. Of course, the Jewish employee should also meet his employer half way. For example, at one of my jobs I informally agreed to work extra hour Mon-Thurs in order to leave early on Fri in the winter (we so did not have to punch a clock so it was not a problem). Today many offices have compressed time for all. Local governments even encourage it in order to relieve transportation congestion. This is how the real job world works
Thanks for clarifying yytz
I suspected you didnt mena what literally what you wrote.Joseph as I said youve created a strawman. Nobody here says it is “OK” for him to remian intermarried.
The question is should we try to be mekarev him anyway and at least get what we can.Gaon,
“allow me to elaborate, when it comes to ultra-sensitive issues as Ishus and Yichus. There is no definite p’sak or procedure and, cannot be, as the Geirus is entirely up to B’D, and these cases need guidance of Gedola Horaha, due to the gravity of the issue ruled as a case-by-case basis…”Agreed completely, as I said “Of course it depends, again Im sorry if I implied there is any blanket statment for such complicated issues.”
Avi K: I don’t know–it’s a hard question, and each BT has to decide what to do in such a situation. Rav Arush’s extensive discussion of such married-to-a-secular-Jew-new-BT-scenarios very strongly argues against divorce, but doesn’t say it’s OK to sin either, so I’m not sure what exact advice he (or other kiruv rabbis) would give in that exact situation. Ultimately the BT will make his own decision.
I agree that’s it’s usually possible to arrange not to have to work on Shabbos and Yom Tov. If not, he should quit and find another job, since most employers out there are more accommodating nowadays.
Joseph –
“Chareidi butei dinim absolutely do not convert intermarried spouses.”
As usual, you just state without any sources.
Is Rav Chaim Ozer of Vilna considered a “Chareidi” Posek?
Is Rav Shlomo Kluger considered a “Chareidi” Posek?
The very statement of “absolutely” indicates ignorance. As there is definitely a Makom le’Heter (or even a Chiuyuv) if she is willing to accept Mitzvos.
Perhaps you are confusing it with Reform style conversion wherein there is no Kabalos Ol Mitzvos?As for your original question – bottom line:
A) work on his Kiruv, and after he embraces Judaism, B) see if she is willing to embrace it and seriously accept as well. C) Present the issue to a prominent Bes Din/Posek (or present it once she is process of considering – You are the “professional” in the Kiruv field).p.s. leave your spear home.
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