being Niftar Al Kiddush Hashem

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  • #1180818

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Thank you for pointing out your response. I don’t think it was “up” for viewing when I wrote mine.

    He suggested Reb Elchonon was zoche to die al kiddish Hashem when the time came for him to leave this world; not that Reb Elchonon was zoche to die.

    I understand this point in theory, but isn’t it presumptuous for a human being to say whether another man died at his proper time? Or to assert with certitude what was in the Divine calculus when a gadol was murdered? It doesn’t sit right with me. And furthermore, such thoughts can CV”S lead to callousness. When Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel was murdered al kiddush Hashem before the eyes of Rabbi Yishmael the Kohen Gadol (which was actually Rabbi Shimon’s wish, because he did not want to witness the murder of the Kohen Gadol), did Rabbi Yishmael exclaim what a marvelous zechus it was that Rabbi Shimon received, or did he weep?

    #1180819

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    Why do you need to read it that way? Why not read it that his tefillos resulted in the z’chus, but that he died exactly when he was anyhow supposed to?

    I don’t understand how dying al kiddush Hashem can be separated from dying. Also, I can understand the tefilla that, if/when it is my time, let it be meaningful, but that is different from coming in ex post facto and saying with authority what happened with someone and why.

    #1180820

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram,

    Thank you for pointing out your response. I don’t think it was “up” for viewing when I wrote mine.

    It wasn’t; I just wanted to reference your comment to my earlier addressing it.

    I understand this point in theory, but isn’t it presumptuous for a human being to say whether another man died at his proper time?

    The commenter didn’t implicate whether it was or wasn’t his proper time to die. All he indicated was that he was zoche to die al kiddush Hashem.

    Or to assert with certitude what was in the Divine calculus when a gadol was murdered?

    Everything that happens is a result of the Divine calculus. This assertion is no different than asserting Rabi Akiva (or any Jew murdered for being a Jew) died al kiddush Hashem.

    …did Rabbi Yishmael exclaim what a marvelous zechus it was that Rabbi Shimon received, or did he weep?

    Rabi Akiva exclaimed, before he was killed, what a zechus it was for him to die al kiddush Hashem. There’s no difficulty pointing out that someone died al kiddush Hashem or that it is a zchus to leave this world that way.

    #1180821

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    isn’t it presumptuous for a human being to say whether another man died at his proper time?

    Would you rather assume that R’ Elchonon died before his time?

    #1180822

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t understand how dying al kiddush Hashem can be separated from dying.

    Everybody dies. Some people have a special z’chus to die al kiddush Hashem. It’s not a matter of separating dying al kiddush Hashem from dying; it’s s matter of separating dying al kiddush Hashem from dying shelo al kiddush Hashem.

    Also, I can understand the tefilla that, if/when it is my time, let it be meaningful, but that is different from coming in ex post facto and saying with authority what happened with someone and why.

    Agreed; it’s a theory, not a certitude. I’m not saying I think that’s what happened, I just don’t think what he said deserved the response it got.

    #1180823

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Post seemed to me to be posted very haughtingly and in a tone that warranted the response

    #1180824

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What made you think it was haughty?

    #1180825

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The way the language was written

    #1180826

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Can you be more specific?

    #1180827

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    All he indicated was that he was zoche to die al kiddush Hashem.

    Not quite. He indicated that Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman died al kiddush Hashem because of tefillos the Chofetz Chaim davened with regard to himself.

    DaasYochid,

    Would you rather assume that R’ Elchonon died before his time?

    Rabbi Elchonon was in his 60s when he was murdered. I also think he personally saw his murder as a kappara for the Jewish people.

    It’s not a matter of separating dying al kiddush Hashem from dying; it’s s matter of separating dying al kiddush Hashem from dying shelo al kiddush Hashem.

    Is being brutally murdered by sonei Yisroel the only way to die al kiddush Hashem? What about having the opportunity to say vidui and Shema and demonstrate faith and trust in Hashem even under the shadow of death, as opposed to R”L passing suddenly and unexpectedly?

    #1180828

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    but in the merit of his prayers his primary talmid Reb Elchonon Wasserman, may G-d avenge his blood, was

    Should have been written something like this..Although it probably never should have been written at all

    The Chofetz Chaim’s primary talmid Rav Elchanon Wasserman was R’L killed by the Nazis YMSH. HYD

    #1180829

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD,

    Then his point.wouldn’t have been made. It seems you disagree with his point, but why is his making it haughty?

    Avram, I think we assume that dying because one is a Jew is a tremendous z’chus. R’ Akiva could have also died as you describe, but we assume it was a bigger z’chus to die the way he did.

    Why can’t dying in his sixties be the time he was supposed to, yet still be a kapparah?

    #1180830

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    its a strong language

    He purposely used harsher language to make his point

    Also its the poster themself. If I had written a similar post you would have gotten a different feeling, If a certain nameless trollish poster had posted it you would have gotten another feeling

    #1180831

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Question: Are we being selfish when we bentch someone that he should live ad meah v’esrim? Should we rather wish for him that he [R”L] be killed by terrorists for being Jewish?

    #1180832

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram, he indicated that the Chofetz Chaim’s tefilos led kiddush Hashem to be the cause of his death; he didn’t indicate that the CC tefilos (or anything else) resulted in his dying any earlier than he would have otherwise died.

    Is being brutally murdered by sonei Yisroel the only way to die al kiddush Hashem? What about having the opportunity to say vidui and Shema and demonstrate faith and trust in Hashem even under the shadow of death, as opposed to R”L passing suddenly and unexpectedly?

    Being brutally murdered by sonei Yisroel is far more preferable than having the opportunity to say vidui and Shema and demonstrate faith and trust in Hashem even under the shadow of death.

    #1180833

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Question: Are we being selfish when we bentch someone that he should live ad meah v’esrim? Should we rather wish for him that he [R”L] be killed by terrorists for being Jewish?

    No.

    Nor are we being selfish if we daven that someone’s suffering be alleviated, or do something tangible to help someone. This is despite the fact that we know yissurin are a tremendous kapparah.

    Nobody claimed that someone did or should daven for someone to die.

    #1180834

    When a new is killed by a Muslim in Israel R”L he is murdered because he is Jewish and muslims believe that they have a commandment to kill jews. Now is that not called a yid who was niftar al kiddush Hashem?

    6 million Jews were killed in the holocaust R”L by the Nazi’s because they were Jews. And not because they wanted their homes or some other reason. Each precious yid murdered al kiddish Hashem

    Please post a source for this concept that someone who was

    killed because he was a Jew was niftar al Kiddush Hashem (and please read the 5th perek of Rambam’s Hilchos Yesodei Hatorah first.)

    #1180835

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1180836

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    Question: Are we being selfish when we bentch someone that he should live ad meah v’esrim? Should we rather wish for him that he [R”L] be killed by terrorists for being Jewish?

    Nobody claimed that someone did or should daven for someone to die.

    No nobody did, however, the assertion was made that R’ Elchonon died al kiddush Hashem in his 60s because of the tefillos of the Chofetz Chaim. This is the Chofetz Chaim’s beloved talmid we are talking about, and surely the Chofetz Chaim davened for him to live a long life of Torah and sweet goodness, as follows from your answer to my question. If someone approached me and said that someone beloved to me was murdered by terrorists because of my tefillos for myself, I would be hurt tremendously, even though I know dying al kiddush Hashem is a tremendous zechus for the neshama. That’s why nobody in their right mind would ever say something like that to somebody. Do we not owe the holy Chofetz Chaim at least that same regard (even though he has passed away)??

    Joseph,

    From the beginning I think you have perceived the objection to mik5’s statement as being due to the concept of dying al kiddush Hashem vis a vis R’ Elchonon, and that assumption has largely driven the subsequent discussion. That’s not it for me. My objection is based on regard for the honor of the Chofetz Chaim, and asserting that we know the “mind” of Hashem.

    #1180837

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram, is it not obvious the decision of Hashem’s “mind” was that Reb Elechonon should leave this world al kiddush Hashem? How does attributing Hashem’s decision to the Chofetz Chaim’s tefilos detract from his honor?

    #1180838

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m not sure why you can’t see the distinction between causing his death and causing that he be a vehicle for kiddush Hashem.

    #1180839

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Avram, is it not obvious the decision of Hashem’s “mind” was that Reb Elechonon should leave this world al kiddush Hashem?

    Of course.

    How does attributing Hashem’s decision to the Chofetz Chaim’s tefilos detract from his honor?

    Because A: I don’t think the Chofetz Chaim would have appreciated such an attribution to his tefillos, and had such a statement been made during his lifetime, it would have caused him pain, and B: Who are we to make such attributions in the first place?

    #1180840

    Avram in MD
    Participant
    #1180841

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    I’m not sure why you can’t see the distinction between causing his death and causing that he be a vehicle for kiddush Hashem.

    I don’t think my problem is a failure to see that there is a distinction, but rather that I think it is inappropriate to say something like that whether or not there is a distinction.

    #1180842

    DaasYochid: http://www.aish.com/ho/i/48955481.html

    I didn’t say “someone who was killed in the Holocaust,”

    I said “someone who was killed because he was a Jew.”

    (It’s always good to hear from Rabbi Lopiansky, though.)

    #1180843

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Avram:

    It is not inappropriate to say that he caused him to be a vehicle for K”H.

    #1180844

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Comlink-X:

    I think conceptually, we can see a path to an approach for other situations.

    This question has been discussed here before.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/dying-al-kiddush-hashem

    #1180845

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    It is not inappropriate to say that he caused him to be a vehicle for K”H.

    Yes it is.

    No it isn’t.

    Yes it is.

    No it isn’t.

    Yes it is.

    No it isn’t.

    There, I let you have the last word.

    No you didn’t.

    Oops.

    #1180846

    bump for all those yidden that gave their lives up to save others in the 9/11 attacks. 15 years since they died al kiddush Hashem.

    may all their neshamos have an aliya

    #1180847

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    If a person is killed because they are asked to renounce Judaism but refuse, or if it’s another yehareg v’al ya’avor situation, that’s dying al kiddush hashem. I’m not sure about other cases.

    #1539207

    Joseph
    Participant

    Today is the yahrzeit of the famous Ger Tzedek, Avrohom ben Avrohom, hy”d.

    When Rav Avrohom was taken to be burned al kiddush Hashem for converting to Judaism, he requested from those who came to kill him that they honor his one last request as has been customary throughout the ages before killing someone.

    They agreed. He asked to be taken to the Vilna Gaon. They brought him to the Gaon and he asked the Gaon the following question: “We know the rule of ‘Zerizim makdimim l’mitzvos – One should perform mitzvos with alacrity.’ According to that dictum I should be running to fulfill this mitzvah of dying al kiddush Hashem. On the other hand, the quicker I run, the quicker I will hasten my death and one must not hasten one’s death. What should I do? Run quickly or not?”

    The Gaon wanted to answer his question but before he had a chance the soldiers hustled Rav Avrohom away. The Gaon rushed to the window and shouted after him, “Reb Avrohom, quicker!” Rav Avrohom began to walk quickly…

    The Story about the Famous Ger Tzedek that Caused Rav Chaim Kanievsky to Burst into Tears

    #1539218

    Avi K
    Participant

    Is anyone here interested in living for kiddush Hashem?

    #1539230

    laskern
    Participant

    Killed for being a Jew is Kiddush Hashem. It says in Tzetil Katan 2 that in Krias Shma we should have in mind that a fire is burning, forced to convert and we throw ourselves in there for the name of Hashem rather than convert.

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  laskern.
    #1539434

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Is anyone here interested in living for kiddush Hashem?”

    Yes. But dying Al Kiddush Hashem is the biggest form of Kiddush Hashem that we can attain and hope for.

    #1539500

    DovidBT
    Participant

    But dying Al Kiddush Hashem is the biggest form of Kiddush Hashem that we can attain and hope for.

    Dying Al Kiddush Hashem is better than living Al Kiddush Hashem?

    #1539515

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Dying Al Kiddush Hashem is better than living Al Kiddush Hashem?”

    Both are great. But it’s a bigger Kiddush Hashem to die Al Kiddush Hashem. It’s something every Jew should hope for.

    #1539541

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, Rav Chaim Brisker said the opposite. However, if you are really interested maybe you can join an elite IDF unit and volunteer for the most dangerous missions.

    #1539535

    Phil
    Participant

    Judaism is not a death-oriented religion but a life-oriented one. As the Gemara tells us, it is much more difficult to live an entire life Al Kiddush Hashem than it is to die in that manner. We don’t get to choose how we leave this world but we do get to choose how we live in this world. While a Jew must be prepared to die Al Kiddush Hashem, there is no source that says we must hope for it. R. Akiva’s famous statement was made about himself and there are a number of fascinating explanations as to why.

    #1539529

    DovidBT
    Participant

    It’s a bigger Kiddush Hashem to die Al Kiddush Hashem. It’s something every Jews should hope for.

    I’ve never come across that principle in my humble studies.

    Suppose you’re davening from your phone, and the lithium battery explodes and kills you, cv”s. Would that be dying Al Kiddush Hashem? If so, that’s an argument in favor of smartphones. I never heard of a conventional bound siddur exploding.

    #1539922

    Joseph
    Participant

    Reread this thread please. I think the source for what I said was brought the last time this thread was active (by someone else.)

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