- This topic has 8 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 8 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Abomination?
Does anybody else think that this is not a position that the leader of a religious party should be taking?
Calling a person this because of his personal choice and identity, I reject out of hand. And I want people to hear me say it, especially as a leader in religious Zionism.
There are a few issues the Gay people represent, and they are often mushed together.
1) A male being attracted to other men: There is a Machloikes in the later Achronim as to whether one can be born with this attraction or not. This is also a fierce debate in the scientific world.
Whatever the case is, Judaism respects that different people have different nisyoinos. We do not ostracize somebody because of the tests HKB”H sends him. We must support these people and not make them feel guilty for having the nisoyon – and where possibly, try to end that Nisoyon with whatever means we have at our disposal (eg therapy).
2) Marriage or relationships: This is what we refer to as a Toievah. People who are involved in such relationships must not be encouraged or legitimized in any way. No religious party should be saying anything in support of such people.
Like Non-Kosher food – many of us breath in the aroma outside a McDonalds and feel an attraction. There is nothing wrong with that. Wrong would be to give in to the taivah.
Other things you quoted, however, are terrible. There is clear apikorsus and rejection of the Torah in that speech.
??”? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ? ???? ???
????? ????? ????? ???? ?”? ?’ ??”? ??? ????? ???”?. ??”? ????? ????? ????”? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????.
??? ?? ??????? ??????? ????? ???”? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ???????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???, ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ?????, ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??????? ?”? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????? ?? ?”? ?”? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ?? ????? ???? ???”? ??? ??????, ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???.
???? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?”? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???, ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?”? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ????, ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?”? ?”? ???’ ??”? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???, ??????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??????? ????? ?’ ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?????, ??? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??’ ???? ??????? ????? ???? ???’ ?????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?”? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?????, ??”? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???????, ??????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???’ ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?”? ?”? ????????? ?? ?”? ?”?, ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????, ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?”?, ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?”? ?”? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??????, ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??????? ?????? ??. ???? ????? ?????? ??????.
????? ????”? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ?? ????, ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????, ??? ???? ?????? ??”? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???”? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????”? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???”? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????, ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????’ ???”? ??????? ??????? ??????? ??? ???? ????, ????? ???”? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??????, ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????, ??”? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?????, ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????? ??”? ?? ?”? ?”? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?”? ???? ?????? ??”? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???????, ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????”? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????, ??????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????, ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??”? ??????? ????? ?? ???”? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??.
??”? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????”? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???”? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????”? ???? ??”? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ??????? ????????, ???? ????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ????”? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??????, ???”? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ???????? ?? ?”? ?”? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?”?, ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???”? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????, ?? ??? ????? ???. ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????.
??????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????”?, ????? ???????? ?? ?”? ?”? ??????? ????? ????????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??”? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????????? ????, ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????, ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????.
????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???????? ?????? ????”? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??”? ?????? ?? ????? ????”? ?????? ???? ???. ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?’. ??? ?????????.
R. Norman Lamm (Homosexuality):
It may be, however, that the very variety of interpretations of to’evah points to a far more fundamental meaning, namely, that it is an act characterized as an “abomination” is prima facie disgusting and cannot be further defined or explained. Certain acts are considered to’evah by the Torah, and there the matters rests. It is, as it were, a visceral reaction, an intuitive disqualification of the act, and we run the risk of distorting the Biblical judgment if we rationalize it. To’evh constitutes a category of objectionableness sui generis: it is a primary phenomenon. (This lends additional force to Rabbi David Z. Hoffmann’s contention that to’evah is used by the Torah to indicate the repulsiveness of a proscribed act, no matter how much it may be in vogue among advance and sophisticated cultures: see his Sefer Va-yikra, II, p. 54).
????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????”? ????”? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ????”?
?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?’ ?? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? “???????? ???????”. ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????, ???”? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????, ??????? ?? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ??????? ?? ??????, ???? ?????? ?”?. ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??”?. ????? ??? ???, ???? ???? ?? ?????, ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????, ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????
I have read those Teshuvos from R’ Moshe a couple of times, and it disturbed me a lot.
I understand if he would say that nobody has a natural inclination towards members of their own gender, and that the attraction comes as a result of personal experiences (trauma, abuse, etc.). However, I find it extremely difficult to accept that the actual attraction is fake as well.
I can tell you from firsthand experience about yeshiva bochurim I have helped who had such Taivah, and were in tears about it for months. One especially was distraught at the fact that he was attracted to men, and tried desperately to rid himself of it. The taivah itself is clearly there.
I don’t really understand what R’ Moshe says about the World outlook on gay marriage – obviously, society has changed since his times, but I [a perfectly straight guy] understand them perfectly. As was stated on a previous thread (now closed, I think), Torah aside, there is no reason why one shouldn’t be gay, should one have the natural attraction.
It only could disturb you because you’ve been influenced by the zeitgeist rained on society by the media and toeiva lobby and their indoctrination attempting to remove the abnormality of this malady.
Yekke2, disturbed? That’s a pretty strong word to use about something R’ Moshe wrote.
Anyhow, he didn’t say the taivah isn’t real, he said it comes from a different place than the regular taivos.
A major, if not the principle, factor in Jews going “off the derekh” has always been the desire for freedom to engage in sexual behaviors that are prohibited by halacha. If you want to work with non-frum Jews, and Bennett is a politican trying to lead a country in which non-frum Jews are the majority, you have to live with it.
The reality is that sexual deviance (as defined by halacha), is as much part of being frei as eating treff and working on Shabbos.
- The topic ‘Bennet and Toaiva Pride’ is closed to new replies.