March 14, 2012 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #602487
In your opinion, what do you think is a better shidduch system? Beshows or dating. And, why?March 14, 2012 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1050471
It depends on the person.
For some, beshows are better. For others, dating is.
There is no “one size fits all” answer to this question.
The Wolf (who is waiting for more_2 to ask me why I’m so bitter about this)March 14, 2012 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1050472
dating, because you get a better idea of who and what they are. on a beshow, they are all stiff since usually the both sets of parents are sitting in the next room listening to every word!
ok you can say you only get to know the person after your married. However I’d say you see alot more through dating than you would see on a Beshow. I also think it’s important for a potential couple to discuss thier views and plans for THIER future rather than have the parents decide what’s best for them. talking things through avoids Alot more resentment later on.
I also think the boy/girl has to be mature enough to handle things. parents should teach thier children at an early age how to think for themselves.. How to be an individual etc… alot of parents make the mistake of having thier children relive thier lives… Never ever force a “child” Dater/Beshower into sth out of peerpreasure or age..etc… that will only be detrimental to the “child”.March 15, 2012 12:27 am at 12:27 am #1050473
More- I’m not stating whether dating/beshow is better. I’m just telling you that the way Chassidim go to a beshow, is the same as a “dater’s” 3rd date. After all the info that Chassidishe parents collect. They turn the world over to hear everything about a boy/girl.March 15, 2012 12:54 am at 12:54 am #1050474
It’s incredible how many times a first date is a flop.
Therefore, I think it would save a lot of time/money/bother etc, for everyone to have one, or even two beshows before a typical date.
Wolf – what does it depend on ?March 15, 2012 1:13 am at 1:13 am #1050475
smartcookie, you’ve got a point. however I’m talking about the later stages where they are up to the 9th or tenth date they have the advantage of discussing the future together and working things through that would be detrimental later on if not discussed prior… i’m not saying that the dater covers eth before marriage, My husband and I left out a few detailed discussions before we commitment, that is normal, but the amount that the chassidim just accept and live with, without asking questions…can chas v’shalom build up resentment later on down the track.. You can say they are born into and it’s just like accepting a new brother or sister, however on this angle there is more than afew cons to this way.. They do say however that the percentage of divorces in the chassidishe oilom is far beyond less than the litvishe one. there is also no “shidduch crisis” in the chassidishe world..:) maybe there is a strong method to thier madness. maybe they are right and we are wrong..LOL;)but they do say however the amount of HAPPY litvishe marriages outweighs the chassidim by far! communication is one of the main key factors to a successful marriage. the chassidim don’t get much of that prior to marriage, so it’s no wonder… On a date you make decisions together. the chassidishe way is all in theory, however it’s gotta be l’masse in order to know for sure if it will work. On a litvishe date you decide together where you will be spending the time, etc.. you choose conversations. and you see l’maase how well you are able to communicate! i’m not bashing either way I’m just stating fact.March 15, 2012 1:23 am at 1:23 am #1050476
No One Mourns The WickedMember
As a proud MO I’m sure you know what my vote is…
I was speaking to a chassidic co worker today who just recently got married. She told me her parents did research on her husband FOR A YEAR & they had two B’shows, 4 hours apart.
Oy…not for me..March 15, 2012 1:49 am at 1:49 am #1050477
more: Using your argument, you should feel dating like the goyim, for 4-5 years before marriage, is the way to go. Or at least dating like the MO, for 1-2 years before marriage. The fact is they don’t work and are much worse than dating, or beshowing, much less. You’ll NEVER REALLY get to know a person until you are married to them. Even if you dated them 5 years beforehand.March 15, 2012 1:59 am at 1:59 am #1050478
The point is that after marriage there is commitment, which is a game changer.March 15, 2012 2:04 am at 2:04 am #1050479
did I say 4-5/1-2 years is the way to go? maybe read my posts alittle more closely before commenting like this…
“The fact is they don’t work and are much worse than dating, or beshowing, much less. You’ll NEVER REALLY get to know a person until you are married to them. Even if you dated them 5 years beforehand.”
this was covered in an earlier post of mine;) refer to post number 3-
“ok you can say you only get to know the person after your married. However I’d say you see alot more through dating than you would see on a Beshow. I also think it’s important for a potential couple to discuss thier views and plans for THIER future rather than have the parents decide what’s best for them. talking things through avoids Alot more resentment later on.”March 15, 2012 2:14 am at 2:14 am #1050480
Wolf – what does it depend on ?
Among other things, the person, his/her upbringing, his/her expectations, etc.
The WolfMarch 15, 2012 2:17 am at 2:17 am #1050481
I’ll bet almost everyone here’s Elter-Zeida and Elter-Bubba (and all their ancestors) didn’t find each other, or get to know each other, by dating. I’d even bet that their parents played a large part in finding their shidduch. And the same regarding the shidduchim of their ancestors for thousands of years.March 15, 2012 4:17 am at 4:17 am #1050482
Alot has to do with the way you were brought up. Everyone is different and their needs are different. A family member of ours had a beshow , got married and struggled for 3 years in a horrible environment. They divorced. He dated his next kallah for months, saw her everyday. Got divorced after 9 months. He says you NEVER know a person until you live with them! He claims the beshow is better, its pure tachlis, with dating you are not focused on the important stuff. Hatzlocha to all of you who are still looking for their basherte!March 15, 2012 4:47 am at 4:47 am #1050483
B’shows work for many chassidim. it would never work for my family or me. Different strokes for different folks, and no matter how we travel, the trip is good if we all arrive at the same destination.March 15, 2012 8:38 am at 8:38 am #1050484
Many Elter-Bubbies and Zeides, at this point, met in person under various conditions, but were not simply introduced to each other with the parents listening in. They were also born in a different world, and what worked then does not necessarily work now.
Beshow may still work for some individuals. While it is also true that you do not really know someone until (well after) you marry the person, you can, however, learn a very surprisingly large amount during dating and it is therefore wrong to deny the opportunity to date to those people who need that time.
So it is quite primitive and therefore unrealistic to expect two relatively sophisticated people to live in consonance with diracheha darchei noam when they are not given the time to determine whether or not they wish to spend the next 100 or so years with this other person. Even if they don’t get divorced, CH”V, that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have been happier had they been allowed to date first, even with their current spouse. Again, diracheha darchei noam, not necessarily the derech of the culture of what happens to have been done many, many years ago. This does not mean that every couple who’ve dated are happy. But that also doesn’t mean you might as well make their odds of success dramatically worse.
You also can’t compare the divorce rates from one to another (i.e. beshow to dating), because the main reasons for a divorce in a beshow is obviously due to the beshow and denial of dating. Whereas by dating, it is external, which could be anything from something covered-up before-hand to simple immaturity in married life to lack of communication to other things, all of which have nothing to do with the process of how they meet, when that process is dating. By a beshow, however, there is little, if any, time to determine if any of this could potentially be an issue.
So if you take out the “external” factors, it’s hard to see how any divorces could be caused by having allowed the couple to date rather than beshowing them. On the other hand, it’s quite easy to see how the couple might not have divorced since they were denied the opportunity to date in favor of beshowing them.
If it were just a matter of “live and let live”, then I would not write most of what I’ve written. But I feel that many people who are put through this beshow system are being denied that which they need, and which has painful and costly ramifications later on, not just on them, but on their families and children, etc.
So it’s not okay to just say “it’s okay for them to do it”; it’s not, at least for some of them, and those who feel it might not be for them should find a neutral Rav to discuss the matter with.
May Hashem be misameiach all of His people and redeem us all BB”A.March 15, 2012 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1050485
With a Beshow are the young people allowed to say no?
Or is it pretty much a done deal?March 15, 2012 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1050486
Neither of these shidduch systems are perfect. However, here are some thoughts:
1. As a chassidish girl, I know exactly how much time and energy is put into getting information on the other party before a beshow is arranged. But people lie through their teeth when it comes to shidduchim. I’ve seen hearing people go deaf and seeing people go blind when they’re asked information about someone who they’d rather not talk about.
2. Unless a girl/boy is mature enough to know what it is s/he’s trying to get out of the dating process, it’s one big waste of time. Spending hours enxchanging funny yeshiva/sem/camp experiences does NOT count for getting to know the other person for real. It’s a pity that immature daters get the same amount of real talk done in all their dates put together, as a chassidish couple can do in 2-4 beshows.
3. Date or beshow, you only truly know the person once you’re married.March 15, 2012 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1050487
oomis1105: good one! i totally agree!March 15, 2012 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #1050488
“but they do say however the amount of HAPPY litvishe marriages outweighs the chassidim by far!”
How is this possible to know?March 15, 2012 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1050489
“and no matter how we travel, the trip is good if we all arrive at the same destination.”
lav davka but you nicely summed up what i was gonna say 🙂March 15, 2012 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1050490
I think it works if you grew up chassidish and this is how you’ve always known things are done and you expect to marry this way. Otherwise, it’s not a good idea- the rest of us are used to the dating model, and also tend to have more secularized notions of love and stuff (due to being generally less sheltered).March 15, 2012 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1050491
I would say Chasidish marriages are much happier than others.March 15, 2012 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1050492
If Beshow works for people in a certain culture that is great and nobody can say that they are wrong for doing things that way. Just don’t pretend that the couple knows each other before they get married in such a case-they do not. It is an arranged marriage (doesn’t mean its wrong, but let’s call a spade a spade)
Also saying silly unproven statements like Chasidishe/or Dating marriages are better or happier is stupid there are too many variables involved in marriage and divorce to make statements like that without doing an extremely comprehensive and thorough scientific study and to the best of my knowledge this has not been (and due to the private nature of such things it probably cannot be) doneMarch 15, 2012 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1050493
I think this is an immature conversation. Everyone should just do what they feel comfortable doing.March 15, 2012 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1050494
i think gerrer marriages are the happiest.March 15, 2012 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1050495
“With a Beshow are the young people allowed to say no?”
Of course. That’s what it’s for.March 15, 2012 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1050496
“it’s hard to see how any divorces could be caused by having allowed the couple to date rather than beshowing them.”
One word: Infatuation.March 15, 2012 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #1050497
i think gerrer marriages are the happiest.
I would say Chasidish marriages are much happier than others.
I think that purple is the prettiest color and I would say that more coffee is consumed (per capita) by people named “Ed” than by any other name.
The WolfMarch 15, 2012 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1050498
“With a Beshow are the young people allowed to say no?”
Of course. That’s what it’s for.
Serious questions, if you parents spent a long time finding this person and you just dont like them for whatever reason. Is there pressure to say yes.March 15, 2012 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #1050499
Zahavas- yes, there’s pressure to saying yes. But it’s definitely an option to say no. We’re not forced.
But you have to understand, that after one or 2 beshows, most pple don’t have a good reason to say no. They don’t see any more than their parents already found out for them
We basically trust our parents A LOT.
Many of these marriages work, some don’t.
To say whoever has more divorces is nonsense. You have good marriages in each community, and then you have ugly marriages too. It’s the same everywhere.March 15, 2012 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1050500
Beshows are much better. You can date so many people so much faster if you just have to date them once before deciding whether or not to get married.
Among my dating friends, the record was 250 girls. But among my beshow friends–they were hitting over 600! Most have lost count, but average 10-15 a month.March 15, 2012 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #1050501
most smart parents won’t they let the kid decide
they discuss it and if it seems not right then just move on…March 15, 2012 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #1050502
Boro Park GirlMember
i think its really what youre used to. my friend got engaged after one beshow- the chassan didnt even go home! they drank l’chaim right then!!!!March 15, 2012 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #1050503
Wolf – sounds like that’s just a question about what they’re used to/ will be comfortable with. The question was asking for reasons to prefer one system to another.March 15, 2012 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #1050504
wolf- purple people are bad.March 16, 2012 1:14 am at 1:14 am #1050505
“wolf- purple people are bad.”
Posted 1 hour ago #
because black and blue make purple?March 16, 2012 1:50 am at 1:50 am #1050506
HaKatan: Generally the Elter-Z’s and Elter-B’s, and their ancestors going back doros and doros, did have arranged marriages (whatever the mechanics were in arranging it.) And don’t be too confident that the young couple can do a better job in determining whether it would be a happy marriage than their parents can. It may very well be the reverse is the case.March 16, 2012 2:34 am at 2:34 am #1050507
The Wolf (who is waiting for more to ask me why I’m so bitter about this)
Posted 1 day ago #
are you;)?March 16, 2012 11:22 am at 11:22 am #1050508
im not sure why you thought my posts were serious. my second post was meant to illustrate the ridiculousness of my first. seriously, come on.March 16, 2012 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1050509
I think that some chassidim have a different view of marriage than most people. My wife had conversations with a few chassidic women while in the hospital during her pregnancy (it was very complicated, and she was hospitalized towards the end of it).
The women told her straight out that the sole purpose of marriage is to have children. One woman asked her, “What else is there?” If you go into marriage with an attitude like that, then a B’Show is fine. Who cares if you really like each other? As long as you don’t hate each other, you’ll be fine. Just have kids, and that’s all. Do you love your spouse? It doesn’t matter, just have kids.
If you don’t view marriage like that, dating is important. If a marriage is about two people living in harmony together, building a life together, and not just being about children, then they need to be sure they are able to grow together. They need to complement each other. Dating is better for determining that.March 16, 2012 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1050510
Feif: You are way off base in how incorrect you are about the reality.March 16, 2012 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1050511
Imagine walking into a new car dealership and the dealer shows you a car, Basically you are pressured strongly to buy the car and while you can say no, you are expected to buy the car. A car is a committment for a long time and you are expected to make this decision on the car in 30 mins
Even more Lehavdil on a marriage, you are supposed to spend the rest of your life with this person and you are expected to make a decision in 30 mins.
Now what if you parents brought you to the dealership and showed you a Lexus. A Lexus is a great car and your parents would never steer you wrong, but it doesnt mean you want a Lexus. It doesnt mean you are a bad person, or anything like that, you just dont want a Lexus.March 16, 2012 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1050512
To Zdads analogy to buying a car,
What about if you had done all your research and spent hundreds of hours figuring out just what you want in a car and which car and what it should look like and how it should perform and what specifically you need a car for, and then you pick out a car. Then you go to the showroom to look at a car exactly like that. How much time do you then need to close the deal, perhaps a quick test drive to see if it is what you think it is based on your research. The test drive will be much more focused and to the point.
On the other hand, if you do not do the research before and just take cars for a test drive, how do you know you are going to get whats best for you? Or even what you need.March 16, 2012 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1050513
hershi: Care to explain why/how?March 16, 2012 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1050514
Any marriage where one is subservient to the other is not a good thing IMHO.March 16, 2012 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1050515
You are being deliberatly obtuse. Chasidim have very normal relationships with their spouses. You bigotry is showing. Perhaps one would say that MO only marry money and appearance, other neccesities they take care of elsewhere.
How would that generalization fly?March 16, 2012 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #1050516
nishtdayngesheft: If a MO person had actually told you that, I’d say you have a valid point. However, I doubt anyone actually told you that.
My wife was actually told by more than one chassidic woman that the only purpose for marriage was to have children. My wife asked her, “When you are no longer able to have children, would you tell your husband to divorce you and marry some 18 year old girl so he could have more children?”
The woman responded that no, she wouldn’t like it, and maybe she needed to question what she’d been taught.March 16, 2012 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1050517
A small number of narrowminded pple think of children as the main reason for marriage.
MOST people don’t. Your wife probably didn’t speak to all the hundreds of Chassidish woman around.March 16, 2012 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #1050518
Any btw Feif, most people who want marriage,chassidish or MO, do plan to have children together. But that’s not the ONLY reason to get married.
And even if it would be, it doesn’t mean that they can just marry anyone. They still need to get along and love each other.
So your statement about beshowing because they’re only doing it to have kids, is so senseless. And I’m glad you think all Chassidim are that stupid.March 16, 2012 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1050519
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