Beshow vs. Dating

Home Coffeeroom Shidduchim Beshow vs. Dating

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  • #602487

    postal
    Member

    In your opinion, what do you think is a better shidduch system? Beshows or dating. And, why?

  • #1050471

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It depends on the person.

    For some, beshows are better. For others, dating is.

    There is no “one size fits all” answer to this question.

    The Wolf (who is waiting for more_2 to ask me why I’m so bitter about this)

  • #1050472

    more
    Member

    dating, because you get a better idea of who and what they are. on a beshow, they are all stiff since usually the both sets of parents are sitting in the next room listening to every word!

    ok you can say you only get to know the person after your married. However I’d say you see alot more through dating than you would see on a Beshow. I also think it’s important for a potential couple to discuss thier views and plans for THIER future rather than have the parents decide what’s best for them. talking things through avoids Alot more resentment later on.

    I also think the boy/girl has to be mature enough to handle things. parents should teach thier children at an early age how to think for themselves.. How to be an individual etc… alot of parents make the mistake of having thier children relive thier lives… Never ever force a “child” Dater/Beshower into sth out of peerpreasure or age..etc… that will only be detrimental to the “child”.

  • #1050473

    smartcookie
    Member

    More- I’m not stating whether dating/beshow is better. I’m just telling you that the way Chassidim go to a beshow, is the same as a “dater’s” 3rd date. After all the info that Chassidishe parents collect. They turn the world over to hear everything about a boy/girl.

  • #1050474

    Logician
    Member

    It’s incredible how many times a first date is a flop.

    Therefore, I think it would save a lot of time/money/bother etc, for everyone to have one, or even two beshows before a typical date.

    Wolf – what does it depend on ?

  • #1050475

    more
    Member

    smartcookie, you’ve got a point. however I’m talking about the later stages where they are up to the 9th or tenth date they have the advantage of discussing the future together and working things through that would be detrimental later on if not discussed prior… i’m not saying that the dater covers eth before marriage, My husband and I left out a few detailed discussions before we commitment, that is normal, but the amount that the chassidim just accept and live with, without asking questions…can chas v’shalom build up resentment later on down the track.. You can say they are born into and it’s just like accepting a new brother or sister, however on this angle there is more than afew cons to this way.. They do say however that the percentage of divorces in the chassidishe oilom is far beyond less than the litvishe one. there is also no “shidduch crisis” in the chassidishe world..:) maybe there is a strong method to thier madness. maybe they are right and we are wrong..LOL;)but they do say however the amount of HAPPY litvishe marriages outweighs the chassidim by far! communication is one of the main key factors to a successful marriage. the chassidim don’t get much of that prior to marriage, so it’s no wonder… On a date you make decisions together. the chassidishe way is all in theory, however it’s gotta be l’masse in order to know for sure if it will work. On a litvishe date you decide together where you will be spending the time, etc.. you choose conversations. and you see l’maase how well you are able to communicate! i’m not bashing either way I’m just stating fact.

  • #1050476

    As a proud MO I’m sure you know what my vote is…

    I was speaking to a chassidic co worker today who just recently got married. She told me her parents did research on her husband FOR A YEAR & they had two B’shows, 4 hours apart.

    Oy…not for me..

  • #1050477

    postal
    Member

    more: Using your argument, you should feel dating like the goyim, for 4-5 years before marriage, is the way to go. Or at least dating like the MO, for 1-2 years before marriage. The fact is they don’t work and are much worse than dating, or beshowing, much less. You’ll NEVER REALLY get to know a person until you are married to them. Even if you dated them 5 years beforehand.

  • #1050478

    Logician
    Member

    The point is that after marriage there is commitment, which is a game changer.

  • #1050479

    more
    Member

    did I say 4-5/1-2 years is the way to go? maybe read my posts alittle more closely before commenting like this…

    postal said-

    “The fact is they don’t work and are much worse than dating, or beshowing, much less. You’ll NEVER REALLY get to know a person until you are married to them. Even if you dated them 5 years beforehand.”

    this was covered in an earlier post of mine;) refer to post number 3-

    “ok you can say you only get to know the person after your married. However I’d say you see alot more through dating than you would see on a Beshow. I also think it’s important for a potential couple to discuss thier views and plans for THIER future rather than have the parents decide what’s best for them. talking things through avoids Alot more resentment later on.”

  • #1050480

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf – what does it depend on ?

    Among other things, the person, his/her upbringing, his/her expectations, etc.

    The Wolf

  • #1050481

    Derech
    Member

    I’ll bet almost everyone here’s Elter-Zeida and Elter-Bubba (and all their ancestors) didn’t find each other, or get to know each other, by dating. I’d even bet that their parents played a large part in finding their shidduch. And the same regarding the shidduchim of their ancestors for thousands of years.

  • #1050482

    a mamin
    Participant

    Alot has to do with the way you were brought up. Everyone is different and their needs are different. A family member of ours had a beshow , got married and struggled for 3 years in a horrible environment. They divorced. He dated his next kallah for months, saw her everyday. Got divorced after 9 months. He says you NEVER know a person until you live with them! He claims the beshow is better, its pure tachlis, with dating you are not focused on the important stuff. Hatzlocha to all of you who are still looking for their basherte!

  • #1050483

    oomis
    Member

    B’shows work for many chassidim. it would never work for my family or me. Different strokes for different folks, and no matter how we travel, the trip is good if we all arrive at the same destination.

  • #1050484

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Many Elter-Bubbies and Zeides, at this point, met in person under various conditions, but were not simply introduced to each other with the parents listening in. They were also born in a different world, and what worked then does not necessarily work now.

    Beshow may still work for some individuals. While it is also true that you do not really know someone until (well after) you marry the person, you can, however, learn a very surprisingly large amount during dating and it is therefore wrong to deny the opportunity to date to those people who need that time.

    So it is quite primitive and therefore unrealistic to expect two relatively sophisticated people to live in consonance with diracheha darchei noam when they are not given the time to determine whether or not they wish to spend the next 100 or so years with this other person. Even if they don’t get divorced, CH”V, that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have been happier had they been allowed to date first, even with their current spouse. Again, diracheha darchei noam, not necessarily the derech of the culture of what happens to have been done many, many years ago. This does not mean that every couple who’ve dated are happy. But that also doesn’t mean you might as well make their odds of success dramatically worse.

    You also can’t compare the divorce rates from one to another (i.e. beshow to dating), because the main reasons for a divorce in a beshow is obviously due to the beshow and denial of dating. Whereas by dating, it is external, which could be anything from something covered-up before-hand to simple immaturity in married life to lack of communication to other things, all of which have nothing to do with the process of how they meet, when that process is dating. By a beshow, however, there is little, if any, time to determine if any of this could potentially be an issue.

    So if you take out the “external” factors, it’s hard to see how any divorces could be caused by having allowed the couple to date rather than beshowing them. On the other hand, it’s quite easy to see how the couple might not have divorced since they were denied the opportunity to date in favor of beshowing them.

    If it were just a matter of “live and let live”, then I would not write most of what I’ve written. But I feel that many people who are put through this beshow system are being denied that which they need, and which has painful and costly ramifications later on, not just on them, but on their families and children, etc.

    So it’s not okay to just say “it’s okay for them to do it”; it’s not, at least for some of them, and those who feel it might not be for them should find a neutral Rav to discuss the matter with.

    May Hashem be misameiach all of His people and redeem us all BB”A.

  • #1050485

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    With a Beshow are the young people allowed to say no?

    Or is it pretty much a done deal?

  • #1050486

    mytake
    Member

    Neither of these shidduch systems are perfect. However, here are some thoughts:

    1. As a chassidish girl, I know exactly how much time and energy is put into getting information on the other party before a beshow is arranged. But people lie through their teeth when it comes to shidduchim. I’ve seen hearing people go deaf and seeing people go blind when they’re asked information about someone who they’d rather not talk about.

    2. Unless a girl/boy is mature enough to know what it is s/he’s trying to get out of the dating process, it’s one big waste of time. Spending hours enxchanging funny yeshiva/sem/camp experiences does NOT count for getting to know the other person for real. It’s a pity that immature daters get the same amount of real talk done in all their dates put together, as a chassidish couple can do in 2-4 beshows.

    3. Date or beshow, you only truly know the person once you’re married.

  • #1050487

    miritchka
    Member

    oomis1105: good one! i totally agree!

  • #1050488

    msseeker
    Member

    “but they do say however the amount of HAPPY litvishe marriages outweighs the chassidim by far!”

    How is this possible to know?

  • #1050489

    soliek
    Member

    “and no matter how we travel, the trip is good if we all arrive at the same destination.”

    lav davka but you nicely summed up what i was gonna say 🙂

  • #1050490

    dvorak
    Member

    I think it works if you grew up chassidish and this is how you’ve always known things are done and you expect to marry this way. Otherwise, it’s not a good idea- the rest of us are used to the dating model, and also tend to have more secularized notions of love and stuff (due to being generally less sheltered).

  • #1050491

    hershi
    Member

    I would say Chasidish marriages are much happier than others.

  • #1050492

    000646
    Participant

    If Beshow works for people in a certain culture that is great and nobody can say that they are wrong for doing things that way. Just don’t pretend that the couple knows each other before they get married in such a case-they do not. It is an arranged marriage (doesn’t mean its wrong, but let’s call a spade a spade)

    Also saying silly unproven statements like Chasidishe/or Dating marriages are better or happier is stupid there are too many variables involved in marriage and divorce to make statements like that without doing an extremely comprehensive and thorough scientific study and to the best of my knowledge this has not been (and due to the private nature of such things it probably cannot be) done

  • #1050493

    big deal
    Participant

    I think this is an immature conversation. Everyone should just do what they feel comfortable doing.

  • #1050494

    Toi
    Member

    i think gerrer marriages are the happiest.

  • #1050495

    msseeker
    Member

    “With a Beshow are the young people allowed to say no?”

    Of course. That’s what it’s for.

  • #1050496

    msseeker
    Member

    “it’s hard to see how any divorces could be caused by having allowed the couple to date rather than beshowing them.”

    One word: Infatuation.

  • #1050497

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    i think gerrer marriages are the happiest.

    I would say Chasidish marriages are much happier than others.

    I think that purple is the prettiest color and I would say that more coffee is consumed (per capita) by people named “Ed” than by any other name.

    The Wolf

  • #1050498

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    “With a Beshow are the young people allowed to say no?”

    Of course. That’s what it’s for.

    Serious questions, if you parents spent a long time finding this person and you just dont like them for whatever reason. Is there pressure to say yes.

  • #1050499

    smartcookie
    Member

    Zahavas- yes, there’s pressure to saying yes. But it’s definitely an option to say no. We’re not forced.

    But you have to understand, that after one or 2 beshows, most pple don’t have a good reason to say no. They don’t see any more than their parents already found out for them

    We basically trust our parents A LOT.

    Many of these marriages work, some don’t.

    To say whoever has more divorces is nonsense. You have good marriages in each community, and then you have ugly marriages too. It’s the same everywhere.

  • #1050500

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Beshows are much better. You can date so many people so much faster if you just have to date them once before deciding whether or not to get married.

    Among my dating friends, the record was 250 girls. But among my beshow friends–they were hitting over 600! Most have lost count, but average 10-15 a month.

  • #1050501

    Panthers
    Member

    most smart parents won’t they let the kid decide

    they discuss it and if it seems not right then just move on…

  • #1050502

    i think its really what youre used to. my friend got engaged after one beshow- the chassan didnt even go home! they drank l’chaim right then!!!!

  • #1050503

    Logician
    Member

    Wolf – sounds like that’s just a question about what they’re used to/ will be comfortable with. The question was asking for reasons to prefer one system to another.

  • #1050504

    Toi
    Member

    wolf- purple people are bad.

  • #1050505

    more
    Member

    Toi

    Shruikin

    “wolf- purple people are bad.”

    Posted 1 hour ago #

    because black and blue make purple?

  • #1050506

    Derech
    Member

    HaKatan: Generally the Elter-Z’s and Elter-B’s, and their ancestors going back doros and doros, did have arranged marriages (whatever the mechanics were in arranging it.) And don’t be too confident that the young couple can do a better job in determining whether it would be a happy marriage than their parents can. It may very well be the reverse is the case.

  • #1050507

    more
    Member

    WolfishMusings

    The Wolf

    The Wolf (who is waiting for more to ask me why I’m so bitter about this)

    Posted 1 day ago #

    are you;)?

  • #1050508

    Toi
    Member

    im not sure why you thought my posts were serious. my second post was meant to illustrate the ridiculousness of my first. seriously, come on.

  • #1050509

    Feif Un
    Member

    I think that some chassidim have a different view of marriage than most people. My wife had conversations with a few chassidic women while in the hospital during her pregnancy (it was very complicated, and she was hospitalized towards the end of it).

    The women told her straight out that the sole purpose of marriage is to have children. One woman asked her, “What else is there?” If you go into marriage with an attitude like that, then a B’Show is fine. Who cares if you really like each other? As long as you don’t hate each other, you’ll be fine. Just have kids, and that’s all. Do you love your spouse? It doesn’t matter, just have kids.

    If you don’t view marriage like that, dating is important. If a marriage is about two people living in harmony together, building a life together, and not just being about children, then they need to be sure they are able to grow together. They need to complement each other. Dating is better for determining that.

  • #1050510

    hershi
    Member

    Feif: You are way off base in how incorrect you are about the reality.

  • #1050511

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Imagine walking into a new car dealership and the dealer shows you a car, Basically you are pressured strongly to buy the car and while you can say no, you are expected to buy the car. A car is a committment for a long time and you are expected to make this decision on the car in 30 mins

    Even more Lehavdil on a marriage, you are supposed to spend the rest of your life with this person and you are expected to make a decision in 30 mins.

    Now what if you parents brought you to the dealership and showed you a Lexus. A Lexus is a great car and your parents would never steer you wrong, but it doesnt mean you want a Lexus. It doesnt mean you are a bad person, or anything like that, you just dont want a Lexus.

  • #1050512

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    To Zdads analogy to buying a car,

    What about if you had done all your research and spent hundreds of hours figuring out just what you want in a car and which car and what it should look like and how it should perform and what specifically you need a car for, and then you pick out a car. Then you go to the showroom to look at a car exactly like that. How much time do you then need to close the deal, perhaps a quick test drive to see if it is what you think it is based on your research. The test drive will be much more focused and to the point.

    On the other hand, if you do not do the research before and just take cars for a test drive, how do you know you are going to get whats best for you? Or even what you need.

  • #1050513

    Feif Un
    Member

    hershi: Care to explain why/how?

  • #1050514

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Any marriage where one is subservient to the other is not a good thing IMHO.

  • #1050515

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Fief,

    You are being deliberatly obtuse. Chasidim have very normal relationships with their spouses. You bigotry is showing. Perhaps one would say that MO only marry money and appearance, other neccesities they take care of elsewhere.

    How would that generalization fly?

  • #1050516

    Feif Un
    Member

    nishtdayngesheft: If a MO person had actually told you that, I’d say you have a valid point. However, I doubt anyone actually told you that.

    My wife was actually told by more than one chassidic woman that the only purpose for marriage was to have children. My wife asked her, “When you are no longer able to have children, would you tell your husband to divorce you and marry some 18 year old girl so he could have more children?”

    The woman responded that no, she wouldn’t like it, and maybe she needed to question what she’d been taught.

  • #1050517

    smartcookie
    Member

    A small number of narrowminded pple think of children as the main reason for marriage.

    MOST people don’t. Your wife probably didn’t speak to all the hundreds of Chassidish woman around.

  • #1050518

    smartcookie
    Member

    Any btw Feif, most people who want marriage,chassidish or MO, do plan to have children together. But that’s not the ONLY reason to get married.

    And even if it would be, it doesn’t mean that they can just marry anyone. They still need to get along and love each other.

    So your statement about beshowing because they’re only doing it to have kids, is so senseless. And I’m glad you think all Chassidim are that stupid.

  • #1050519

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    @smartcookie

    How do you know if you can love or get along with someone after meeting them for 30 mins.

    Just because my parents like someone doesnt mean I would like them. Nothing against my parents, but there are likes and dislikes I do not share with them.

  • #1050520

    smartcookie
    Member

    Zahavas- that’s exactly the difference of dating and beshowing. That our parents try their best. We don’t fall in love before marriage.

    After marriage, is when we start loving our spouse. Some people sadly never develope that love.

    But out of the Chassidish world, dating makes you “see if there’s chemistry-(supposedly), and guess what? It doesn’t always work either. Many couples have longlasting love, and some couples’ love get drastically diminished after a short while married.

    Same percentages of successful marriage in all communities. Only difference is that by chassidim, the failed ones never fell in love, and by others, that the love disappeared.

  • #1050521

    Feif Un
    Member

    smartcookie, read my post again. I never said all chassidim think that way. I said SOME chassidim. I know that my wife was told that by a few women who were in the hospital at the same time she was.

    I don’t think all chassidim are that stupid. I think the amount of chassidim that are stupid is probably the same ratio as any other group.

    As for b’showing, if you feel that marriage is only to have kids, then a b’show makes perfect sense. I don’t think it’s naive of me to think that. I think it’s naive of some women to think marriage is only about having kids.

  • #1050522

    Derech
    Member

    Dating leads to a lot more infatuation than beshowing (as someone previously pointed out.)

  • #1050523

    smartcookie
    Member

    Feif- I don’t get your logic. If a woman wants to have 20 children, then she doesn’t need to have a good marriage? She still needs that great man, and they still need SOME love, to a certain extent, if they are planning to live together for some decades.

  • #1050524

    smartcookie
    Member

    Just to clarify, I don’t believe beshows are better than dating. It’s a pretty weird system. But so is dating. And both are far from perfect as facts show.

  • #1050525

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I dont think the reason there are less divorces in the Chassidic communities vs other is NOT because of Beshows vs Dating

    I think its the way Divorce is treating in general. In many communities Divorce is not seen as that bad and if the marriage isnt working out, get a divorce and get over it.

    However AS I SEE IT (and I could be wrong here) in Chasidic communities divorce is strongly frowned upon and only done in extreme circumstances (Although I think that is changing slightly)

  • #1050526

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Feif,

    Frankly I have no reason to believe hat you said. I can form my opinions from direct observation though.

  • #1050527

    smartcookie
    Member

    Z- divorce in Chassidish communities is definitely harder for ONE reason: by the time a Chassidish couple is ready for divorce, they already have a child or two or six.

  • #1050528

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Zdad,

    Perhpas the reason why there are so many more divorces in the MO community is because there is no stigma attached. At a whim, it’s on to the next.

    I hardly think that is more respectful.

  • #1050529

    Derech
    Member

    Um, smartcookie, and in the frum non-Chasidish world why would the first child be born later than by Chasidim? They aren’t.

  • #1050530

    smartcookie
    Member

    Derech- so they would have the same problem as the Chassidish couple if they need to divorce.

  • #1050531

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am not divorced, but I know plenty of people who are divorced and frankly most (if not all of them had really good reasons for being divorced)

    Issues like abuse, Husband refused to get a job, division of household jobs , issues related to the kids.

    I dont think their should be a stigma for getting divorced. Why should an abused spouse be stigmatized for getting one and if it means someone who got divorced for a stupid reason isnt stigmitized so be it.

  • #1050532

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is a famous couple in Borough park, I dont know if they are Chassidic or Yeshivish (They are not MO, I know that) who really HATE each other and the divorce is nasty than they literally split the house in half.

    Should people who hate each other remained married?

  • #1050533

    Feif Un
    Member

    Derech: for the first child, you’re correct. There’s a big difference after that. Many people, even in the yeshiva world, wait a bit before having more kids. Many Rabbonim will give a heter for short-term use of birth control after someone has a baby. Chassidim are far less likely to get such a heter. As a whole, chassidim have far more kids than non-chassidim do.

    As for MO views of divorce, nishtdayngesheft is wrong. It’s not done at a whim. You’re correct that there is no stigma attached. We look at a divorced person as a regular person. From what I’ve heard, chassidim don’t. A divorcee is treated worse than the average person. MO doesn’t have a stigma with a divorce. In some cases, a divorce is warranted, sometimes even required. Again, it falls under what I said before about the reason for marriage.

    nishtdayngesheft, I don’t really care whether you believe me or not. I’ve been called many things, and some of them are probably true. One thing I’m not, however, is a liar. What I told you is true. If you don’t want to believe me, that’s your problem.

  • #1050534

    Derech
    Member

    Division of household jobs has become a valid reason for divorce?! Boy has society fallen to new lows!

  • #1050535

    smartcookie
    Member

    Zahavas and Feif-

    In my very Chassidish community, a couple that divorces over petty stuff, gets the stigma, and pple tend to frown upon them.

    HOWEVER, a man or woman who ran away for a valid reason (abuse or other extreme situation), is IN NO WAY different than one of our regulars. No one judges them in a negative way. Most people in the community even support them for divorcing.

    You people all know about 5 chassidish people, and that’s your view about the thousands of Chassidim worldwide.

    Open your eyes a little and get to know the different Chassidish people before judging.

  • #1050536

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    @smart

    How would you know if a couple divorced for a “stupid reason” or for a “valid reason” Like Abuse

    Isnt talking about abuse Lashon Harah? If its Lashon harah then it cant be discussed and the average person doesnt know about it.

  • #1050537

    smartcookie
    Member

    Zahavas- in most cases, word gets around.

  • #1050538

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Feif,

    I have no reason to believe you and frankly, I have no problem not believing you. Saying it’s my problem is just not the case.

    Both you and zdad are making the same basic mistake, which is understandable seeing what your position is.

    The is a huge difference between stigma being attached to divorce (that is is a terrible thing to happen, even when necessary) and attaching stigma to someone who has gone through a divorce.

    If the two of you cannot fathom that, it is your own failing, and an indicator of the different outlooks.

    Zdad,

    Your latest comment about abuse and loshon hora is beyond childish and stupid.

  • #1050540

    squeak
    Participant

    Feif, you are trolling again. Your entire point is that some chassidish people only marry to have kids, so beshow makes sense for those few? OK, similarly some of your cultured people only marry to gain a trophy and show their worth. So for those too, a beshow is suitable. No,even a beshow is too much, they should just need a picture and a few numbers.

    So lets start a thread abput this, and word the OP carefully so that most people will think you are implying something about the entire MO community and then watch you folks get all defensive.

  • #1050541

    oomis
    Member

    Isnt talking about abuse Lashon Harah? If its Lashon harah then it cant be discussed and the average person doesnt know about it. “

    Do you think people refrain from talking about it because they believe it is L”H, and NOT because they are made to feel ashamed if it happens to them? Unless I misunderstood your point – with all due respect – you could not be more wrong. When someone commits abuse, letting people know about it is NOT L”H. It is avoiding being oveir on “lo saamod al dam reyacha.” It is helping to prevent a tragedy, because abusers only know how to continue abusing. They do NOT get rehabilitated. They do not stop what they are doing. They do not CARE that they are seriously damaging and in some beyond tragic cases KILLING someone, usually their spouse or a young child. Frum, not frum, Kohein, Levi, or Yisroel, an abuser has to be stopped, no ifs, ands, or buts.

  • #1050542

    smartcookie
    Member

    As a side note,

    You MOs need to work on your Ahavas Yisroel. I have yet to meet one MO person who is fond of a Chossid.

    And hardly any of you met more than a handful of Chassidim in your entire life. If any.

    I have no problem with anyone. I like any person who has basic Mentchlichkeit and and Ehrlichkeit.

    Broaden your horizon, people, broaden your horizon….

  • #1050543

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    @smart

    I used to work for Chasidim. I knew alot of them, Especially Satmar.

  • #1050544

    smartcookie
    Member

    How many? 8?

    And if it was 80, were they ALL terrible people?

    And did you ever meet a Chossid that wasn’t Satmar? Because there’s still a whole wide world of Chassidim out there.

  • #1050545

    000646
    Participant

    I happen (oddly enough) to agree with smart cookie. Being open minded doesn’t mean that you look down at anyone who is “less progressive” then you. Allot of MO that I meet are only open minded one way- that is to the more progressive

  • #1050547

    farrocks
    Member

    I don’t understand how anyone could encourage dating. Where is the tznius in a guy and a girl spending time alone and sometimes in seclusion together? (In the car and possibly wherever they spend their time.) And putting aside the religious aspects, what about the practical aspects. They could fall in blind love because of physical and other superficial attractions rather than the things that truly matter in a marriage. This, I believe, is a large cause of divorce.

  • #1050548

    smartcookie
    Member

    000646- why do you say oddly enough?

  • #1050549

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    @smart there were some Bianers (Not sure of spelling), Skvaers there and quite a few Lubavich (Ive known a few Lubavich in my life)

    I was recently at a chassidic wedding in New Square (At that beautiful hall just outside the main part of town) I dont know what kind of Chassidim they were though.

    I also recently met a Bobover at a cousins house.

    I dont think Ive ever met a Ger, Vishiz or Belz.

    Most of my family is Yeshivish not Chasidic, so frankly I am more familiar with that crowd.

    Hashem creates emotions and feelings, for instance Hashem creates Hunger for a reason. Do you think Hashem would create something BAD?

    Maybe you dont know the reason for it, but it doesnt mean its BAD.

    Since Hashem doesnt create BAD things, how could a feeling that Hashem created like infatuation be BAD. Hashem created it for a reason

  • #1050550

    postal
    Member

    Infatuation is good? I suppose so is love of sugary foods.

  • #1050551

    OneOfMany
    Member

    Sugar is very good for you. You need it to live.

  • #1050552

    MorahRach
    Member

    I personally dated my husband for 10 months. Best decision of my life. Yes some aspects may have been difficult but it turned out amazing. The reason for this was that I had some awful experiences when shidduch dating, people held things back, a lot o Loshon hurrah and scheming. I needed to know WHO I was marrying. Yes ofcourse I didn’t really “know” my husband in the way I do now, but I knew him a heck of a lot better than my friends who mamish went on 4 dates before getting engaged. None of my friends did bshows as we are not chassidish so I can’t really speak on that. I do however know unfortunately many people under 24 years old who are divorced and only one that I can think of dated over a couple of months. I have found that in the shidduch world people are so worried about their child not finding a shiduch ( understandably) that they hold back what they may not deem important. I know many unfortunately girls who married boys everything was beautiful both sides were ecstatic and it turns out he boy had been to rehab for drug use and relapsed into he first year of marriage. Those of you saying shidduchim don’t properly vet a shiduch or research the way beshows do is false. They/we do. So many calls are made and rabbonim spoken to etc. every situation is different. I just don’t like sitting here reading about people basically saying beshows is the best way and that it makes no difference dating you don’t know them any better. That is just false. I can safely say I was in love with my husband before and on our wedding date. He is my best friend and I wish the same happiness that I have for EVERYONE. Btw I did not just get married so please don’t say it’s newly wedded bliss. It is how I feel an I know he feels the same. B’hatzlacha to everyone looking for their basheret!

  • #1050553

    farrocks
    Member

    I believe it is fair to say that there are proportionally many more divorces among those that dated their spouse in the 10 month range than among those that had in the range of about 4 dates prior to engagement.

  • #1050554

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I believe it is fair to say that there are proportionally many more divorces among those that dated their spouse in the 10 month range than among those that had in the range of about 4 dates prior to engagement.

    Yes, but to attribute that to the dating process is overly simplistic. It is much more likely that it is due to societal norms in the communities which do each type of dating.

    The relevant question is whether the communities that currently do one, would have less divorces if they would switch to the other.

    Otherwise, you are just arguing that they should switch their whole community culture.

  • #1050555

    MorahRach
    Member

    I don’t know that I believe that. Not to say that everyone should do 1 thing and be done with it, but every person is different and something that works for one person may not work for another. All I know is this way worked better for me, and I don’t think it makes me any more likely to chas v’s get divorced than my friend who dated for 6 days. On the contrary one friend in particular who has been married about the same length of time as I have, STILL says she feels uncomfortable without makeup around her husband, can’t use the bathroom when he is home, won’t scarf down food infront of him etc. in my case by the time I was engaged I was past those insecurities. Well the first and third :). I also have a friends who dated in a few short weeks who are very happy and comfortable and content bH. There is too much judging and high horsing on this site. I’m tellin you the negativity toward “semi chilled” yeshivish and GFB Modern orthodox is scary. We are all a part of BY we should start acting like it.

  • #1050556

    oomis
    Member

    My issue with all the so-called research (and what is this anyway, a shidduch or a term paper?) is that it does not necessarily turn up important inyanim. Rabbanim see congregants, not the individual young man or woman, unless they have a personal close kesher. Rebbeim see “best boys,” (read: good learners)and mechanchos see girls with a specific aspect of that person’s personality and character, and often serious flaws can be hidden, because they relate to interpersonal relationships that manifest themselves with someone who is NOT a chaver or rebbe.

    Family members often only see what they want to see in their son or daughter, and honestly, I cannot fault them for that. However, a girl I know was redt a shidduch by the sister of a young man. The girl was very pesistent,and the other girl didn’t want to hurt her feelings by continuing to make excuses not to go out with him. When he came to pick her up, it was abundantly clear to her and to anyone with eyes and ears, that this young man was borderline developmentally challenged. A loving family might not want to acknowledge that fact to themselves, and I doubt anyone who is a friend or a rov of theirs would be willing to be brutally honest about that to a stranger. The vetting process is deeply flawed by its very design. The very people whom one names as their references, are close enough to them to presumably ONLY speak their praises.

    How many times have I been called as a “reference” for someone (another term which bothers me – it ain’t a job interview), often unexpectedly, and been put on the spot, because I know of something that could be an issue, but it’s my friend’s child and I am not going to be responsible for shterring a shidduch.

    I believe that time spent in someone’s company on a regular and continuous basis, has more of a chance of uncovering certain issues, though not all,to be sure. And some people are VERY clever at hiding their true personalities until it is too late.

  • #1050557

    MorahRach
    Member

    Oomis I completely agree

  • #1050558

    writersoul
    Member

    As far as comments made about teachers seeing only certain things about you go, I have received wonderful references for various reasons from teachers who barely know me. My mom sometimes calls these shidduch contacts and they know less about the person they’re being a reference for than my mom does (and she’s only the sort-of shadchan).

    It’s actually a real scream, because my parents went to PTA and one of my teacher goes to my dad and says, “Oh, your daughter is a wonderful girl, so intelligent–” and then he does a double take and asks, “Um— what grade is she in again?” And then he shows my dad my class picture on the seating chart to make sure he’s got the right person.

    But either way I’ll take the compliment :).

  • #1050559

    oomis
    Member

    As far as comments made about teachers seeing only certain things about you go, I have received wonderful references for various reasons from teachers who barely know me.”

    There you go. No one wants to say negative things about someone who is proposed as a shidduch, and bear the achrayus of messing things up for that person. No one wants to say L”H. No family friend wants it to get back to the parents of the prospective shidduch, that they spoke badly of that person’s child, even if it were warranted.

  • #1050560

    mytake
    Member

    “You MOs need to work on your Ahavas Yisroel. I have yet to meet one MO person who is fond of a Chossid. And hardly any of you met more than a handful of Chassidim in your entire life. If any.”

    Smaartcookie, I am chassidish and I know plenty of MOs who aren’t as judgemental and show plenty of Ahavas Yisroel to ALL Yidden. Just because some of the MO posters have their issues with us, doesn’t mean they all do. Feif doesn’t represent the general MO community.

  • #1050561

    miritchka
    Member

    nistdayngesheft: in response to your response to the car analogy, if a parent decides that a bright red lexus with the lights that blind other drivers, a rooftop window to afford you air without having it whip your face…is best for you but yoyu felt that red is to showy, you want lights that dont blind other drivers, and you prefer no roftop window, would you buy it so quickly? Even though it has all the other ammenities and modern updates?

    Yes chassidim do alot of research, so do non-chassidim.

    Yes there is more trust in the chassidishe world, and with the trust of their parents, non chassidim go out with the boy/girl and finish off the ‘checking out’ of the girl/boy personally.

    Like most have mentioned, you do what is good for you, which one is better? whichever one gets you to your basherte!

    And what is with all the MO and Chassidishe bashing?! Kol Yisrael areivim! People, wake up! I have many acquatances of all different sides of the Jewish spectrum and i respect them all according to their standards! Whether they wear a full sheitel, a hat, no shaitel, half their hair showing, its not my place to put them down! Shame on all of us!

  • #1050562

    Vogue
    Member

    When someone said that the amount of information that is revealed is equivalent to being on a third date before a beshow, what does that mean? Like are medical issues included, and circumstantial stuff?

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