"Boy," "man," and "guy," "single," "married," and

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  • #618211

    What are the accepted ways to combine these terms?

    (I’d also like to hear suggestions for a female equivalent of “guy,” and explanations as to why there isn’t already one.)

    #1174614

    (The title was supposed to end in “divorced” – a quirk of the

    system made it turn out the way it did. You can see it in the URL.)

    #1174615
    Joseph
    Participant

    I’d also like to hear suggestions for a female equivalent of “guy,”

    Gal.

    a quirk of the system made it turn out the way it did.

    What quirk?

    #1174616

    a BOY met a MAN and a GUY at a shidduch meeting, the boy was SINGLE, the man was MARRIED and the guy DIVORCED.

    #1174617
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    I’ll skip question #1 because I don’t think one should combine the terms. They tell relative age and marital status, in fact the word ‘widowed’ is missing from marital status.

    As for the female term for ‘guy’ it is ‘gal’

    #1174618
    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    In the midwest we used the term gal. I have found in other places they don’t. So we say “guys” or “bananot”. Another thing I’ve heard a lot is “peoples”, me and my friend use that a lot too. But this is off topic from the OP

    #1174619
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Shopping & CT, I don’t think I ever heard anyone say gal or bananot. I think I’d be insulted if they did. When referring to a group of girls, you could say “guys” depending on the context, but it doesn’t work for one girl. In some contexts, it won’t work for a group of girls either. Actually, it only works for a group of girls in the second person, as in, “Hey guys, look at this!” but not in third person, as in, “I saw some guys I know.”

    #1174620
    Meno
    Participant

    When is the word “dude” acceptable?

    #1174621
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I think there’s no equivalent word for “guy” for girls because it’s considered demeaning to call a lady anything but a lady. The equivalent terms that have been used for girls in the past were all kind of demeaning -gal, babe, etc.

    #1174622
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Meno – only when you’re joking.

    #1174623
    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Dude is acceptable for friend to friend. That’s about it.

    lilmod- bananot is common in Israel. You would say “I saw a bunch of girls I know”

    #1174624
    Meno
    Participant

    “bananot”

    Is that a typo? If not that’s pretty funny

    #1174625
    Sparkly
    Member

    “Boy” – up till like 14.

    “man” – is in workforce

    “guy” – around 14 and up until in workforce

    “single” – until you have a wife or husband

    “married” – you have a wife or husband

    #1174626
    Meno
    Participant

    Is Kollel part of the workforce?

    #1174627
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Sparkly – so a 50 year old Talmid Chacham who is learning and supporting the world is a guy and his 14 year old neighbor who dropped out of school and is working in a pizza place is a man?

    Meno – she wrote it 2x, so it can’t be a typo. I agree – it is funny.

    #1174628
    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, how is ‘gals’ demeaning? ‘Babes’ is demeaning, certainly, but not gal afaik. It is simply the linguistic equivalent of guys.

    Lady is the equivalent of when you’d call a male a gentleman.

    #1174629
    Sparkly
    Member

    lilmod ulelamaid – i should have said a professional degree. and when a guy learning in kollel becomes mature enough to be considered a man thats when their considered a man with some exceptions.

    #1174630
    Joseph
    Participant

    Sparkly, a man is any male 13 years old and older. A boy is any male under 13. This point is not debatable. It’s min HaTorah.

    #1174631
    Meno
    Participant

    Who says “gals”?

    #1174632
    Sparkly
    Member

    Meno – i do sometimes.

    #1174633
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph – I don’t know if gals is objectively demeaning; I just don’t like it. I don’t know what most girls think about it. It also just sounds strange to me.

    #1174634
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Sparkly – This is the first time you’re mentioning degrees. In your first post, you wrote about working. What are you trying to say now – that if someone is going for a degree, he’s not a man until he starts working? Or do you mean that as soon as he starts his degree, he’s a man?

    Either way, I would have a problem with that definition. If you say that he has to be finished his degree before he can be considered a man, what about a guy who is going to Med school and won’t be finished for a long time? And if a guy who is going for a degree is a man, that would mean that every immature 17 or 18 year old guy in college is a man!

    #1174635
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    In any case, the idea of defining someone’s manhood by his job is very not- Jewish. We don’t define people by their hishtadlus for parnassah – that’s very superficial and goyish.

    #1174636
    Meno
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Where does the Torah use the words “boy” or “man”?

    It uses the word “guy” but I think it’s referring to a place.

    #1174637
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Meno – I was going to ask Joseph the same question, but then I realized he is probably just making the point that a Torahdik definition of manhood is not based on work status. But I guess he can explain for himself.

    #1174638
    Joseph
    Participant

    Meno, It uses the corresponding definitions.

    #1174639
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It uses the word “guy” but I think it’s referring to a place.

    It also uses “man”, but it’s talking about a type of food.

    #1174640
    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Memo-gals is said in the midwest and south of the USA. I used to live there, so I would know 🙂 We say many interesting things over there.

    Bananot is not a typo. I believe there is a term for boys that is based of the work kof. So not demeaning at all 🙂 Not sure where it comes from…

    I says guys a lot and also peoples….

    #1174641
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Meno, It uses the corresponding definitions.

    The definitions do not correspond.

    #1174642
    Meno
    Participant

    Who decided that the Torah’s word for boy (yeled, na’ar, whatever it is) actually means boy and vice versa?

    Maybe there’s just no better English word to define it.

    What’s the English word for “na’arah”?

    #1174643
    Joseph
    Participant

    DY: How do you differentiate the English definitions from what the Torah differentiates between a 12 and 13 year old?

    #1174644
    Person1
    Member

    If you were at a store, and two 13 year olds came in, would you say: “I was at the store and two men came in”?

    If not than the definitions do not correspond.

    #1174645
    Joseph
    Participant

    Person1: That’s because the goyim consider young men to be children and their laws treat it as such. Furthermore, the goyim keep raising the age of what is considered a child. Even over the past hundred years the non-Jewish definition of child has changed.

    #1174646
    Joseph
    Participant

    To wit, the Israelis definition in Modern Hebrew that the secularists there created uses the term ????? in the equivalent of the English term, not the Torah definition/ages thereof.

    #1174647
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, I think even Gedolim would refer to a 13 year old as a boy and not a man.

    Also, even according to the Torah, there is a difference between a 13 year old and a 20 year old, so the concept of adolescence is not completely foreign to Yiddishkeit. I think someone in that age range would probably be called a “naar” or “naara” in Loshon Hakodesh, a guy (if he’s a boy) in english, and a bochur or bochura in Modern Hebrew (although bochur and bochura would last till marriage I think).

    It’s true – the one thing that is missing is a term in english for an unmarried girl above 12/18/20.

    #1174648
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Na’arah- maiden?

    Bananot- a funny derivative of Banot, in the contexts I have heard it used, it has a slightly negative implication.

    Guys- I think is used as a generic term. Can be used for girls, or when referring to males, it can be used to gloss over the stage between boyhood and manhood- for example, in dating “I have a great guy for you” sounds more respectful than “I have a great boy for you” (especially if “boy” in question is in his twenties or thirties), but less intimidating than “I have a great man for you”. somehow, though, for females, “girl” is still used in this context until she is married.

    #1174649
    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, what I’m suggesting is that the age of adulthood among us Jews being 13, the goyim currently(*) consider the age to be 18. What we start at age 20 you might say the goyim start at age 21, when they, too, have additional milestones of adulthood to be considered attained (i.e. alchohol, gambling, adoption.)

    (*)give the goyim another decade and they’ll raise the age again as they continue infantilizing young adults and not hold them responsible for their actions.

    #1174650
    Person1
    Member

    In your family, do they have the same expectations from a 13 year old and a 18 year old?

    #1174651
    Joseph
    Participant

    Person1, in your family do they have the same expectations from an 18 year old as from a 50 year old? If not, is the 18 year old not an adult?

    #1174652
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    How do you differentiate the English definitions from what the Torah differentiates between a 12 and 13 year old?

    The rights and responsibilities which the secular world conveys upon one who reaches the age they consider to be an adult (generally, 18) are vastly different than the dinim which apply to a bar or bas mitzvah.

    For example, the right to vote or buy cigarettes and alcohol don’t have a parallel in halachah, and the ability to be motzi someone in Kiddush or Birchas Hamazon doesn’t exist in secular law l’havdil.

    #1174653
    Joseph
    Participant

    DY: Consider the age cutoff for legal liabilities in secular law for criminal and civil matters versus Jewish law.

    #1174654

    When i read the word bananot I thought it was a typo for bananas …like why would someone call anyone that… in any case the English language is more mixed up than my mommas chulent sloop any thing goes …why waste ur breath debating a language that contradicts itself in so many areas

    #1174655
    Sparkly
    Member

    lilmod ulelamaid – they have terms for that. 0 – 1 baby 1-3 toddler, 4- 9 child, 10 – 12 tween, 13 – 19 teen, 20 – 30 young adult, 30 – 60 adult, 60 and on – senior or elder.

    #1174656
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    I disagree with a few of your terms:

    10-12 are preteens, tweens are those in their twenties- hence the “tw”

    These used to be simply considered adults, but now are culturally apart so have their own categories. Also, I would put young adult as younger than you did- say 18-21- overlapping some of the other categories.

    #1174657
    Sparkly
    Member

    WinnieThePooh – these make the most sense in fact i think that psychology also uses the same ages.

    #1174658

    I meant the thread, including the question of a “guy” equivalent

    to be about the ways we describe people in relation to shidduchim.

    If you’ve ever been told of a “gal” in shidduchim, go ahead and say so.

    10 – 12 tween

    I disagree with a few of your terms:

    10-12 are preteens, tweens are those in their twenties

    I assure you that “tweens” does not mean those in their twenties.

    (I’ve heard it was invented to create a new market to target.)

    #1174659
    Joseph
    Participant

    Comlink, how were folks supposed to divine your question pertained to shidduchim?

    In shidduchim the commonly used counterpart for guy, as generally used in the real world (whether linguistically correct or not), is girl.

    #1174660

    I probably should have put it in the Shidduchim section.

    Maybe I forgot to. Maybe no one would have noticed anyway.

    Also, would it make sense that I just wanted to know

    how to technically put certain words together correctly?

    How can “girl” be the equivalent of both “boy” and “guy”

    (unless those mean the same thing)?

    #1174661
    Joseph
    Participant

    That’s what the French call “ah kasha oif ah maaisa”.

    #1174662

    We are talking about linguistics.

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