Building the Beis HaMikdash

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  • #1464319

    simcha613
    Participant

    There seems to be an explicit command in the Torah to build a Beis HaMikdahs (ועשו לי מקדש ושכנתי בתוכם). How do we know that we have to wait until Mashiach to fulfill this command? How do we know that we don’t have to… or even aren’t supposed to do it right now?

    Sources would be appreciated

    #1464335

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Well, for one thing, seeing as we are all either definitely or presumed טמא it would be impossible to fulfill this מצוה in the current situation.

    #1464453

    simcha613
    Participant

    Catch- unless we can apply the concept of tumah hutrah betzibur

    #1464525

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Who says it isnt a mitzva?

    The chinuch says it is applicable if “Rov yisroel sheruyin al admasan”
    Assuming this means 51% based on wikipedia we arent quite there yet.
    They record world Jewish population as 14.2 million and in ISrael 6.4 million
    (of course these arent halachic numbers)

    #1464536

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    There are a few reasons.
    First of all, the Sifre (I believe quoted by the Ramban) says that a Navi is required to issue the command to build the Beis haMikdash. We don’t have that now, and won’t until Mashiach comes.
    The Chinuch says that the majority of Jews must live in Eretz Yisrael, and it should be a sovereign Jewish nation. That is given as a reason why the 2nd Beis haMikdash was considered weak from the start – most people didn’t come from Bavel, and it wasn’t controlled by the Jews. The Gemara says the Shechinah wasn’t there for those reasons.
    Until Mashiach comes and gathers the Jews together, we won’t have the prerequisites to build a new Beis haMikdash. Mashiach will be a king, and Eliyahu will be the Navi. We will have the gathering of the exiles to Eretz Yisrael. May it happen speedily in our days!

    #1464588

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Minor issue that even talking about building ANYTHING in the area currently occupired by what we commonly refer to as har habayis, El Asqua, the Dome etc. would likely trigger a massive civil insurrection, war with neighboring arab countries etc. Other than that bloodletting (and also that there has been no sighting of Moishiach on Eastern Parkway other than the usual guys running around with yellow flags) initiating construciton of a “beis hamikdash” b’yamenu, would be a great idea.

    #1465292

    icemelter
    Participant

    GadolHadorah- Not true, there have been some sightings Iv’e heard personal accounts. Mostly in that brooklyn area though. Once in India as well.

    #1465350

    Binyanadead
    Participant

    It can be done but it requires a Sanhedrin. The Sanhedrin requires Rabbonim with Smichah, which no longer exists bizman hazeh. According to the Rambam who speaks about this, Smichah can be re-established if the majority of the Gedolei Rabbonim in eretz Yisroel, confer Smichah on one Rov, and he in turn will give Smichah to others etc. Once a Sanhedrin is established they will determine and solve all the issues. You can check this out in the Rambam.
    this has been tried in the 1500s by Mare Be Rav (Rav Yosef Karo’s Rebbe) and failed.
    Rav Henken Zatzal wrote about this as well.

    #1465607

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Also the third beis Hamikdash is gonna look different than the other two and we need moshiach to tell us how to build it as it’s unclear how to build it from the actual nevuah.

    Also there’s four opinions who needs to build it and what that entails:

    1) Hashem
    2) Moshiach
    3) bnei Yisrael
    4) just put on the doors

    There’s a sicha on all the opinions and how we can be mekayem all, just haven’t learned it in awhile.

    #1465909

    Uber_Chacham
    Participant

    Another potential problem is where to build it – the maskana of the gemara is not clear as to if we need a navi or just a mesorah as to where the makom is exactly, and nowadays we don’t have either.

    Take a look at where R’ Akiva Eiger, the Chassam Sofer, and many other Achronim have many, many tshuvos about how to practically rebuild the beis hamikdash, and when exactly we are mechuyav.

    #1465912

    laskern
    Participant

    See the Sefer Aim Habonim Semaicho Perek 3 in great detail what comes first Messiah or the Building of the Bes Hamikdosh.

    Also from the same author Rav Yisochor Teichtal in Mishneh Sochir in Parshes Beshalach מקדש ה כוננו ידיך in great detail discussing this topic.

    #1465914

    laskern
    Participant

    You are correct we need Eliyohu Hanovi to tell us how to build it.

    #1465915

    laskern
    Participant

    You are correct we need Eliyohu Hanovi to tell us how to build it if Meshiah comes before the designated time.
    At the designated time Eliyohu Hanovi will not come.
    Remember בעיתה אחישנה.

    #1465943

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    A couple of years ago when some right wing moishichist group began “planning”: for binyan bayis shlishi, the postings quickly spiraled out of control with questions as to whether the new beis hamikdash would be built to the original specs in the torah or with modern technology icluding high-speed internet acesss..

    #1466005

    laskern
    Participant

    To elaborate further, Rav Teichtal refers to the Tosafes Yom Tov in Maaser Sheni (5,2) referring to a Yerushalmi there ruling that the building will come before Meshiah. The one from above of fire will come on top of our building. The proof is from Nachem asking to surround something from the one from fire. The question is: Surround What? The building we built.

    #1466018

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Laskern: So you are saying that the Ebeshter wants his yidden to first build the Beis Hamikdash prior to the arrival of Moishiach somewhere in the vicinity of har habayis (TBD) and then he will send down a secondBais Hamikdash that will consume the first one in flames??? Sounds a bit circular….

    #1466110

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Doesn’t there need to be a king to build the beis makidsah?

    #1466112

    icemelter
    Participant

    Uber_Chacham- source please sounds interesting.

    #1466158

    laskern
    Participant

    It must be like the burning bush, never consumed.

    #1466157

    laskern
    Participant

    It certainly won’t burn it down with the flames. This is what we say in Nachem on Tisha B’ov.

    #1466159

    laskern
    Participant

    The above author was killed H”YD in 1944 in the holocaust. I checked the sefer exists on the web site below.

    #1466155

    laskern
    Participant

    The Aim Habonim Somaicho holds that we should all go to Eretz Yisroel and start building the Beis Hamikdosh. See the third chapter entitled Settlement and Building. You might be able to download from http://www.hebrewbooks.org.

    #1466173

    laskern
    Participant

    Look at the Baal Haturim ד”ה על פני כל אחיו נפל at the end of Parshes Chayeh Soroh about the coming of Meshiah

    #1466237

    Binyanadead
    Participant

    See RAMBAM Hilchos Sanhedrin, Perek Daled, Halacha Yud Alif. He writes how the Sanhedrin can be established Bizman Hazeh. The RIDVAZ writes that the chachmei Tzfas tried this in the 1500s, and failed (He disagreed with the Chachmei Tzfas). The RAMBAM continues that once the Sanhedrin is established, they can proceed to do all that’s required to re-build the Bais Hamekdash, including determining and appointing a Melech who is a descendant of Bais Dovid, and annointing him with the Shemen Hamishchah, which they will make. Thats the definition of the Mashiach – A melech who is a descendant of Dovid HaMelech and annointed with the Shemen Hamishcha. No Navie is required for any of this according to the RAMBAM. also see Hilchos Bais Habicheerah for how to perform all thats necessary in Yerushalayim. No Navie required.

    #1466389

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “….we should all go to Eretz Yisroel and start building the Beis Hamikdosh”
    So if 8-9 million yidden from chutz l’aretz show up next week in Yerushalayim with shovels, hammers, etc. please explain how this will get done? What does it mean to “start building”? Fundraising? acquiring need land? physical excavation?

    #1466406

    Curious1000
    Participant

    @lc – I don’t have any sfarim on me right now, but the gemara in in Zvachim around daf nun. If you want, I can try to find where exactly these tshuvos are; its been a few years. Do you want me to look?

    #1466800

    laskern
    Participant

    GadolHador ah, it doestn’t mean that we all should all build it together, but to build we all need to be united together in Eretz Yisroel. Maybe, the builders will be shiluchim of the rest. They will be multiple unifications there as it says עוד אקבץ עליו לנקבציו there will be multiple unifications.

    #1466936

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The point being that the inyan of rebuilding beis hamikdash is wrapped in absraction and emunah about z’man moisiach and how we know who is moisiach (putting aside all the Eastern Parkway meshugaas). Thus, there i considerable skepticism about the efforts of some groups in EY who sincerely believe in accelerating the process by literal efforts to begin architectural planning, engineering and procurement of the “stuff” we think will be necessary to for avodah, shlepping goats up to har habayis to restart karbanos etc. Achdus in terms of hoping for coming of moishiach is very different than some of the crazy stuff we read abou here every few months.

    #1467000

    laskern
    Participant

    According the Yerushalmi it has nothing to do with Moshiach but Eliyohu Hanovi. The destruction of temple was because of sinas chinom so if we create achdus we will be forgiven and be able to rebuild the Beis Hamikdosh speedily in our time, Amen

    #1467522

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Why don’t we stop talking in shul, which is considered a mini bais hamikdash and maybe we will be zoche to build the big one

    #1467576

    laskern
    Participant

    See what I said under the topic talking in shul. Not talking protects the unity.

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