Buying Chinese auction tickets with maaser money

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  • #1452676

    Me12345
    Participant

    I’m not writing this as a knock against them because I know that there are alot of haters out there but am I allowed to buy tickets to the oorah-thon with maaser money?
    Kars4kids is so successful and is funding a fantastic kiruv organization I just don’t feel like my $5 that I give is going to a tziddaka

    #1452765

    jakob
    Participant

    ask your LOR different organizations receive a different answer (yes or no) depending on the kind of org., if its mesiras nefesh etc….. like i said best to do is ask your LOR

    #1452803

    Meno
    Participant

    Is your issue that Oorah is not considered a tzedaka and therefore it is not a suitable use of maaser money?

    Or is your issue that you are getting something in return, and therefore it is not a suitable use of maaser money?

    #1452811

    Me12345
    Participant

    I know that it’s muttar to buy Chinese auction tickets with maaser. I also know that oorah is a tzedakah organization. I just don’t feel comfotable giving my maaser money to an organization that has other means of supporting itself. I don’t have a problem with giving money to oorah though.

    The caption is misleading, sorry.

    #1452814

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Lets get to the other issue the term Chinese auction is offensive if it were gentiles calling it a Jewish auction we would be up in arms enough already.

    #1452819

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Are you also offended by the term “Black Friday”?

    #1452823

    Joseph
    Participant

    Or French Fries?

    #1452827

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Thank you Goq,
    I have posted about this offensive term for years. Mrs. CTL and I are proud parents of a daughter who was born and adopted in China. The term is both false and offensive. These charities are NOT auctioning off Chinese….it is not a slave auction.
    I have refused to give one cent to any charity or organization that uses this term.

    #1452831

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    These charities are NOT auctioning off Chinese…

    If they were, then it wouldn’t be offensive?

    #1453055

    lesschumras
    Participant

    DY, the blaclk in Black Friday does not refer to Africansso it is an ineffective comparison. Prior to on line shopping the stores depended on the sales on the Friday after thanksgiving to put them in ” the black ” ( made a profit ) for the year).

    #1453057

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Actually, according to Wiki, a chinese auction is derived ad a slur against Chinese people. It says that the original name may have been a ” chance ” auction because tickets/chances are thrown into a hat. Over time chance morphed into chinese

    #1453070

    Joseph
    Participant

    Wiki says they’re unsure whether Chinese auction originated in China.

    Are you offended about “Dutch auctions” as well?

    #1453085

    Disillusioned
    Participant

    2 issues with Maaser money and auctions.

    1. Spiritually, loss of pure intentions

    2. There is monetary value in the small chance to win the prize. Therefore most authorities require a small reduction in the ticket price based on your chances of winning.

    #1453098

    Joseph
    Participant

    If you purchase Chinese Auction tickets from an organization that validly qualifies to receive maaser you can count that as maaser. If you win a prize in the auction, you’ll need to reduce the value of that prize from the amount you counted towards maaser.

    #1453112

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY, the blaclk in Black Friday does not refer to Africans

    And Chinese people aren’t being auctioned off, so it’s a good comparison.

    #1453117

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Chinese checkers and Chinese apples are also just called that because it was once in fashion.

    #1453130

    Disillusioned
    Participant

    Joseph – I don’t believe you are correct. The investment which is a small percentage of the purchase price is your own money, NOT maaser. Therefore the prize if won has no relation to previous earnings and is new earnings.

    #1453183

    Joseph
    Participant

    Disillusioned: I believe what I stated is correct.

    #1453185

    Joseph
    Participant

    Disillusioned: I don’t believe your way is halachicly correct.

    #1453220

    Disillusioned
    Participant

    Joseph: ok, let’s go with your theory…. if you purchased a $100 ticket with Maaser money and won a $3000 prize, how much maaser do you have to give? $3000? Then what was the win? It sounds as if you are saying the investment in purchasing the ticket is Maaser money and the winnings belong to Maaser and not yourself.
    If you go with the other approach (which I did ask a very competent Posek) you would deduct approximately $5 off the $100 price of the ticket as your value in the possibility of winning the raffle prize.

    – My Rav’s psak is win $3000 for $5 ($95 was tzedakah)
    – Your Psak is pay $0 up front ($100 is all Tzedakah) but pay $3000 to tzeddakah if you win and have no win.

    Think this through and make sense of it.

    #1453299

    Joseph
    Participant

    Disillusioned: Where did I say that the $3,000 win must be given to maaser or that the winnings belong to maaser? I said no such thing.

    You’d have to give maaser on the winnings; if you won $3,000 after spending $100 at the mosod’s auction, 10% for maaser on the $2,900 net winnings would be $290. At that point the original $100 is no longer considered to have been given to maaser, since you got it back, so you’d have to give that $100 to maaser (since it presumably came out of your maaser cheshbon.)

    Another valid approach would be to consider the original $100 to have been given to maaser, despite your winning a larger amount. And then give 10% maaser on your $3,000 win ($300).

    #1453321

    Disillusioned
    Participant

    Joseph – let’s break it down further

    1. “At that point the original $100 is no longer considered to have been given to maaser, since you got it back, so you’d have to give that $100 to maaser (since it presumably came out of your maaser cheshbon.”
    ——how do you go back and readjust where the money came from? It’s not a game. Secondly, Winning a chance prize is not as if you got your original money back.

    2. Has just negated your original theory of having to reduce any amount of the winnings or investment from your Maaser Cheshbon even though you have proven to have gained from it personally.

    The idea is, we have to establish who’s money won the prize? Your own… then deduct it from the original ticket price and keep the prize or it’s Maaser money investment and Maaser gets to keep the winnings. In that case all $3000 should belong to Tzedakah as you have donated all the money to it.

    #1453322

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Why don’t you ask your Rav?

    #1453478

    Me12345
    Participant

    I wasn’t asking this as a halacha shaila. I simply want to know if i should get over this issue that I have of giving maaser money to oorah for the oorahthon because they have ALOT of money from kars4kids?

    #1453482

    Joseph
    Participant

    Disillusioned: If you object to the first resolution I offered for the reason you stated, ignore it and use the second resolution. I don’t think it is a strong objection but even if you do the objection doesn’t impact the second resolution I gave.

    Your last paragraph doesn’t negate anything I proposed in my second resolution. Suppose a mosod decided to give away $5,000 to a random Yid living in Lakewood, no purchase necessary, they just want to generate publicity for their mosod. Your logic would suggest that whoever won the $5,000 would have to automatically give it all to maaser.

    #1453492

    Disillusioned
    Participant

    Shopping – as posted above, this is from my Posek.

    #1453669

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    me12345: What is the difference if Oorah raises money from kars4kids? What if they had a “gvir” donate the same money they raise from kar4kids? Would you be asking the same question?

    #1453677

    Me12345
    Participant

    Kars4kids is a business that oorah has to support their moisid. If a gvir is supporting that makes it a tzedakah organization I my eyes. Obviously if they would be getting 30 million dollars a year from their gvirim like they get from kars4kids I wouldn’t consider it a tzedakah organization. I don’t mind buying tickets but can I use my maaser money?

    #1453682

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I wasn’t asking this as a halacha shaila.

    Then why do you ask if you’re “allowed to” or “can” use maaser money?

    #1453683

    agutyar
    Participant

    I know there are differences of opinion, but the late Rav Chiam Pinchas Sheinberg, of blessed memory, who was the Rosh Hayeshiva of Torah Ore, held that not every tzdacha is maaser money. He said that just as in the time of the Beis Hamikdash the maaser went to the Leviiim, because they were the ones doing the Avoda, today the maasser has to go the needy bnai Torah, because they are the ones learning and as such are doing the Avodah.
    He was very makpid on this, and even when he was building Torah Ore, many years ago, and it was so important to him to have the building finished already, he never used masser money for the actual building. If someone told him that they were donating maaser money, he used that money for the food for the bachorim, but not for the building.

    #1453691

    Me12345
    Participant

    Daasyochid: I was asking hashkafa if Its the right thing to do. I was told by my rav that I am allowed to buy tickets with maaser money

    #1454090

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    me12345: If your rav told you yes, why are you asking again?

    #1454089

    Disillusioned
    Participant

    Joseph – starting to sound like we agree partially . The one issue that is left, is that the Mosed is not giving away the prize free. The chance to win was purchased. If you want to keep the win then you need to have paid for it. So what is wrong with saying that you have to reduce the value of chance to win from your Cheshbon of Maaser? Take off the $5 and then have a clear conscience? Then of course give the 10% on the prize if you win.

    #1454111

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I was told by my rav that I am allowed to buy tickets with maaser money

    So why did you ask the CR if you’re allowed to?

    #1454112

    Joseph
    Participant

    Disillusioned: In the way you see it, would the winner subtract $5 from the $3,000 win to calculate the maaser? IOW 10% of $2,995.

    #1454125

    Me12345
    Participant

    I didn’t ask about oorah specifically. He said that but tickets to a Chinese auction is allowed. I’m asking on the coffee room about oorahtbon tickets

    #1454162

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Again, what’s the difference between Oorah and any other organization? The fact that they have another income stream? Yeshivos have another income stream – it’s called tuition. I suggest you call Rabbi Mintz directly and ask him. He will give you the answer.

    #1454452

    Disillusioned
    Participant

    Joseph – to clarify

    When you purchase a $100 raffle ticket toward a charity, there are two parts. ~ $5 goes toward your own chance to win the prize. (This based on your odds of winning) Your money, your prize. The ~$95 additional is the amount donated.

    If you win or lose – Deduct only $95 from your Maaser distribution account.
    If you win – pay 10% Maaser on the full winnings of $3000.

    #1454475

    Joseph
    Participant

    Disillusioned: According to your formula, the $5 is an “investment”. (In fact, you used that exact term in a previous comment.) Therefore your profit is only $2,995 for which the 10% maaser should be based on.

    #1454488

    Me12345
    Participant

    If you buy a ticket for $5 with maaser money and you win $100 then you need to take off another $10 maaser. It’s the same as any other money that you make and you take off maaser again from the prize

    #1454492

    Me12345
    Participant

    Yeshivos have another income stream – it’s called tuition” if this is a real answer then I’m speaking to a fool or a troll. Use your brain to figure out the difference between tuition (where every kid is getting tuition cuts ) and kars4kids. A yeshiva never has enough money!!

    #1454499

    Meno
    Participant

    So you’re saying that Oorah already has enough money, but they still run the Oorah-thon just for the fun of it?

    #1454513

    Me12345
    Participant

    I don’t pretend to know the inner workings of oorah but I would imagine that the oorahthon is pretty good marketing and advertising. If anyone reading this is I the marketing field feel free to comment!!

    #1454514

    Joseph
    Participant

    Meno, I have no idea about any particular organizations discussed here (in fact I haven’t even been paying attention to that sub-conversation), but regarding your overall point I know that some organizations that collect tzedaka continue to do so even though they have much more money than they’ll need in a very very long time.

    #1454530

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I am neither a fool nor a troll. Why don’t you just use regular funds and stop wasting everyone’s time.

    #1454534

    Me12345
    Participant

    Iacisrmma,
    I’m on the coffee room because it’s a forum. No one asked you to respond if you feel that your time is being wasted. If you’re not a fool you should refrain from posting foolish comments!

    #1454905

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    You are right it is a forum and I have a right to state my opinion which we all know that everyone has one. You seem to be bothered by the fact that Oorah has another revenue stream which, according to you, may take them out of the realm of a tzedakah organization. If that is the case, give you maaser money to another organization and use regular funds.

    #1454822

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I simply want to know if i should get over this issue that I have of giving maaser money to oorah for the oorahthon because they have ALOT of money from kars4kids? ”

    Yes. You are not suporting Oorah (your statement says you feel they have plenty of money already) with your “donation”, you are playing a game of chance for a shot at a prize.

    #1454820

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I simply want to know if i should get over this issue that I have of giving maaser money to oorah for the oorahthon because they have ALOT of money from kars4kids? ”

    what you seem to be REALLY saying is, should I bother supporting an organization such as Oorah that has an excellent source of funding and allocate my maaser elsewhere since they dont need my donation anyway.

    #1454763

    apushatayid
    Participant

    when I asked my Rav….. There is tzedaka and there is hachzakas torah. sometimes it is obvious what category something falls into. sometimes not. it is not all that clear that one may use maaser funds for every situation of hachzakas torah. so, when we are unsure, we ask.

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