-->

Calling cops on frum neighbor

Home Coffeeroom Family Matters Calling cops on frum neighbor

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 192 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1337454

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Just call.

    #1337475

    Joseph
    Participant

    What I stated in the name of the Posek Hador HaRav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv zt’l can be verified by HaRav Nochom Eisenstein shlita, Rov in Yerushalayim (and previously Chicago) who was a Talmid Muvhak of Rav Elyashiv and his Gabbai, and has previously publicly stated this Psak, as well as by HaRav Dovid Cohen shlita, who asked this shaila to HaRav Elyashiv and received the aforementioned Psak, and by Rabbi Chaim Dovid Zweibel, who has also multiple times publicly related this Psak in HaRav Elyashiv’s name.

    #1337484

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    You insist on submitting names of gedolim who say not to call police but that just adds smoke and mirrors. Nobody says to ignore a psak. When a gadol hador says that in situation A you do A, and in situation B you do B, you cannot keep accusing people of ignoring a psak just because they see situation B as B when you see it as A. You have decided that any situation at all involving a male inflicting pain on another as being ‘no biggie’ (see all corporal punishment etc threads for evidence of this). To you, everything is situation A. The rest of us seem to have a different view of aggression and abuse and are labeling it B. If you see A, then do A. We are seeing B and are doing B. The arguing is primarily on your tolerance level for other people’s pain, not on what the gedolim prescribe.

    Having said that, the OP himself said police OR SHOMRIM. getting help from a jewish organization for someone WHO NEEDS IT is not equal to calling 911 and you have to stop calling everyone a moser for wanting to get appropriate help.

    #1337491

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    I am not doubting the pesak.

    I am asking if that was regardign after the fact, or while the child is “shreaking”?

    #1337492

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rsv Elyashiv’s Psak is *specifically* about allegations and/or suspicions of abuse.

    #1337487

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    At some point, you need to rely upon your own gut rather than punting each time because some rav keeps telling you that “he has everything under control”. If c’v something happens, you will never be able to forgive yourself for not intervening….if the yelling or screams continue, call 911 and sleep well.

    We don’t rely on our own gut instead of listening to a rav.

    #1337496

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Who says Rav Elishiv’s psak would apply in THIS case

    #1337497

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    allegations

    Do you understand the huuuuge difference between allegations of abuse , and hearing shrieking?

    #1337505

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq: Rav Elyashiv’s Psak was issued as a guidance for before a situation occurs so that you know how to react when it does occur. The guidance states that when there’s shrieking (i.e. shrieking “YOU’RE AN IDIOT! I HATE YOU!! DON’T EVER TALK TO ME AGAIN!!!, not shrieking “PUT DOWN THE GUN!! THE KNIFE IS HURTING MY NECK!!, which is a different scenario) that you don’t know is accompanied by violence, it is required to first get a psak as to whether the Halachic criteria of raglayim ladavar has been met or not.

    #1337507

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    There is a boy who is OTD who’s mom heard shrieking from the other room but she figured it was his radio. There is a girl in the psych unit (again) who’s aunt heard shrieking from her son’s room but she figured they were doing a play.
    There is a girl in the ER (again) for attempted suicide who’s bubbie heard shrieking from the basement but she figured she was just playing house.
    There is a boy in rehab who’s brother heard shrieking from the tutor’s study but he was fairly certain it was part of the homework.
    There is a boy…well there was a boy….he’s dead now…who’s school secretary heard shrieking from an office but she was sure he was just happy to be talmid hashavua again.

    It isn’t the psak of the gedolim that is the problem. It’s people who can’t seem to figure out the difference between allegations and pikuach nefesh.

    #1337514

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    There’s a poster right now (syag) who can’t tell the difference between fantasy and truth.
    Making up stories to fit your narrative is silly.

    #1337521

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    I really don’t understand this argument.

    The op originally asked a rabbi. If the op isnt going to listen to the answer, why ask?

    If the op is going to do it anyway, why ask?

    The rabbi said not to do it. Op’s gut says he’s wrong.
    The question is do you listen to Halacha or follow your gut in order to feel better. Is Op a frum Jew? Isn’t this obvious?

    Your only arguments would be perhaps that this Rabbi doesn’t understand the gravity, so ask him if he’d be okay if you discuss it with someone else. But the op keeps mentioning that this is a well-regarded community Rabbi. So again, I don’t understand the argument.
    Daas Torah vs your “gut”.

    #1337523

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    There’s a man (or was, he’s dead now too) whose neighbor heard shrieking from his house and figured he must have been murdering someone. After the police were called and found that it was indeed the radio, the man was so embarrassed that he couldn’t face anyone anymore. He became so withdrawn that his wife divorced him and took the kids, and there was nobody at home to find him on time after he had the heart attack.

    #1337529

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I have a lot of trouble understanding how you can think it is appropriate to insert those types of responses in these types of conversations. It’s either very poor taste in humor, or batuling a lot of people who really don’t deserve that disrespect.

    #1337543

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Counterargument using same style.

    #1337545

    mentsch1
    Participant

    This whole thread is sad
    not one poster advised, maybe just maybe to actually have a conversation with your neighbor before calling the cops
    maybe that’s what mature adults do. Maybe you would have gotten a perfectly logical answer like, “we are training our three year old to sleep in a bed, but she falls out of bed and wakes up screaming”, and you wouldn’t even need to ask the question.
    Maybe, you would have embarrassed him and he would be self conscious and stop screaming at his wife and/or kids.
    or maybe he is abusive and he would yell at you to mind your own business and then you would have a genuine concern to mull over and ask a shayla on

    #1337547

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    no, actually not. poor taste and disrespect, either intentionally or not, either towards those who suffered or just to me. Not sure which, but talking about abuse and people who have committed suicide to escape the pain that their relatives/friends/neighbors didn’t protect them from isn’t really funny or something you need to jump in with a parody style counterargument against. Especially since the stories I mentioned really happened thousands of times, and you made yours up to be argumentative.

    #1337576

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Yitzchokm
    “I really don’t understand this argument.”
    Me neither!

    “The op originally asked a rabbi. If the op isnt going to listen to the answer, why ask?”
    I don’t know why he asked. This is something we learn in cgeder when I learnt mishnayos yoma.

    “The question is do you listen to Halacha or follow your gut in order to feel better. Is Op a frum Jew? Isn’t this obvious?”

    Of course it’s obvious! My rav (the one doing research whether I should call the fire department) told me the beach’s on Apple is mezonos. I’m pretty sure he s wrong.
    But for some reason people here seem confused. And are bringing irrelevant pesakim from rav elyashiv about what to do AFTER abuse has occured

    #1337582

    DovidBT
    Participant

    “This whole thread is sad not one poster advised, maybe just maybe to actually have a conversation with your neighbor before calling the cops maybe that’s what mature adults do.”

    I came close, by suggesting knocking on the door to borrow a cup of flour and assessing whether there’s actually a problem.

    #1337586

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    ubiquitin

    Do you consider what you’ve written a serious response? I can’t tell

    #1337584

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Sorry, you don’t get to play victim here. You’re bringing up stories that don’t happen as often as you’d like to think, so no. I don’t feel bad.

    Is an apology to Joseph still on the table re:preferred arrest policies?
    Or, according to your view, every arrest is appropriate.
    And every time someone pleads guilty, he must be guilty.

    #1337590

    Health
    Participant

    Joe – I agree with you.
    But what about – The best thing is to call EMS or Hatzolah and let them deal with it.
    Or Sholom task force & ask them what to do?

    #1337600

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If you’re asking if you should call the police, then you should.

    Unless you’re a moron. So you should ask your rov whether you’re a moron.

    No, ask us.

    Oh, you did.

    Yes, you are.

    #1337603

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The key variable here that is not being commonly accepted across all threads is how much information the rav who is providing the guidance actually has….in some postings, the supposition is that the Rav is well informed, has a personal knowledge of the individuals involved through some prior interactions etc…in other postings, the underlying assumption is that one must always follow the guidance of a Rav even though the immediate and real time facts/sounds may imply otherwise…there has to be some degree of common sense applied to each situation. There is no general rule of applicability that works in every such situation. Presumably,, if the Rav is not familiar with the individuals and the risks involved, he will instruct you to seek intervention by shomrim, if possible, or whatever first responders he believes will work best to mitigate any risks of harm to anyone with an awareness of the complications that could result from a “false alarm”

    #1337630

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Syag, you don’t live on a little island of purity and sorrow where you have a monopoly on tragedy.

    #1337637

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Not sure what your issue is but that comment doesn’t even fit the situation. These aren’t *my* tragedies, I never claimed purity and I’m sorry you can’t deal with me trying to protect abuse victims from people who want to pretend the tv is on. Are you one of those people? Is that why this bothers you? Perhaps you would consider expressing your view in words instead of popping in and batul-ing me and my opinion.

    Whatever.

    #1337641

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Papa
    “If you’re asking if you should call the police, then you should.”
    Please explain.
    I also like to hear your opinion of calling after his ruv said not to

    #1337655

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Syag, you aren’t considering the costs on both sides. I’m not saying your conclusions are wrong, but you need to recognize that every option has a cost.

    #1337659

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    No time to respond to everything right now, but I want to make a couple of important points:

    1. I wrote that not all smoke or fire necessitates calling the fire. Some posters argued with me that it does. I think that you were talking about different situations than I was. I have witnessed fires that did not necessitate calling the fire department, sometimes even if hadn’t been Shabbos, and certainly if it was Shabbos.

    We once had a Chanuka Menora go on fire on Shabbos – someone stood next to it to make sure that the fire didn’t get out of hand and necessitate chillul Shabbos (it didn’t).

    Another time, there was a fire in the park near my house (not on Shabbos). I called the fire department and knocked on the doors of all the people in my apt. building telling them there was a fire and they should leave their houses. No one left their house or seemed at all concerned besides me, and the firemen took at least 20 minutes to arrive. This was in Israel where grass fires are fairly commonplace and rarely dangerous.

    #1337666

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Do you consider what you’ve written a serious response? I can’t tell”

    Well this is a silly discussion

    There is no need for a Rav, and if the Rav gets it wrong there is no excuse to violate a LAv and say the Rav told me too

    As I posted before
    It is quite simple:
    I have a simple question for the OP:
    Do you think somebody MIGHT be in danger?

    There are three possible answers:
    1) Yes (this is how I understood the OP)
    definitely call the police. (Is there anyone, besides for Joseph, who disagrees in this situation?)

    2) No – (I dont see how this fits with the OP)
    I agree dont call the police. IF there is no chance anyone is in danger

    3) I dont know
    This response shows a misunderstanding of the the question was “MIGHT someone be in danger” if you dont know then the answer is Yes. See above for the appropriate action

    LU
    “I think that you were talking about different situations than I was.”
    the situationis where yo udont know (see above)
    If you see smoke dont know what it is (and cant investiagte for whatever reason) what do you do?
    It is the same here. as you correctly pointed out.

    #1337665

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Ubiquitin & Avi & whoever else it’s relevant to: While you are correct that one is mechalel Shabbos even for Safeik pikuach nefesh, it has to be a certain level of safeik. This came up once in another thread a while back. I think someone raised the possibility that if you see a lost purse on Shabbos, because there might be medicine in the purse that the person will die if he doesn’t have, so therefore it ‘s a safeik pikuach nefesh.

    Obviously, that is a very small safeik so we are not mechalel Shabbos. There are halachos regarding how big a safeik has to be in order to be considered safeik pikuach nefesh. We don’t call a doctor on Shabbos every time that someone is sick.

    Likewise, there are halachos regarding a situation like this. That is why we have poskim. If you don’t trust your Rav, ask another one. But it requires a psak halacha. And no one here is qualified to give it since we don’t know the situation.

    And Ubiquitin, as I pointed out before, the OP said that he has no idea if this is something that requires police intervention. In his last post, he wrote that he doesn’t know that there is physical violence going on. It is entirely possible that he is the nervous type.

    It shouldn’t take any more time to call a recognized poseik than it does to get advice from anonymous posters. And you will feel more at peace if you know that you asked Daas Torah and are following halacha.

    #1337663

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I agree with Mentch that speaking to his neighbor would be a good idea (certainly before calling the police), as long as he is comfortable doing that. The OP did already mention that he was planning on doing that – I wonder what happened with that?

    #1337661

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    2. I think that the reason for the chilukei deios has to do with the fact that different people are understanding the situation differently. Ok, maybe that’s obvious. But my point is that I think that some people, when they hear the word, “shrieking” ,it sets off major warning bells and they assume that there is immediate and clear danger or at least a very strong possibility of such.

    “Shrieking” can mean different things. The word itself is open to interpretation. It does not necessarily mean a situation that necessitates police intervention

    The OP wrote (a few times) that he is not sure that something is going on. He is not sure if this case necessitates police intervention. His Rav is sure that this case does not. They are the only two people here who have any information. None of the posters here do. All we know is that an anonymous poster is nervous and his Rav is sure that police intervention is not needed. Yes, his Rav could be wrong, and yes, we have no idea who his Rav is. But why assume that his Rav is wrong and that the police should be called? No one here knows anything about the situation; how can anyone possibly be poskening that he should call the police?

    This is a situation that calls for a psak halacha from someone who knows more about the situation than anyone here possibly can. No one here has any right to posken that he is allowed to call the police. The most you can do is to tell him to ask someone else. However, even that only makes sense if the second person is more authoritative than the first and if he tells him that he spoke to his Rav and what his Rav said.

    #1337676

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “If you see smoke dont know what it is (and cant investiagte for whatever reason) what do you do?
    It is the same here. as you correctly pointed out.

    I think your theoretical situation may need more details. I don’t think that you should call the firemen every time you smell smoke. For example, if there is a strong likelihood that your neighbors are making a barbecue and it is highly unlikely that it’s a real fire, but you are the nervous type who calls the firemen every time you smell smoke and it always turns out to be nothing, then no, you should not call the fire station on Shabbos.

    All these cases depend on how big of a safeik we are talking about. As I already pointed out (although it wasn’t up yet when you last posted), there are different levels of safeik and one would have to determine how big a safeik we are talking about.

    But in any case, even if you were right and you call the fire station every time you smell smoke, it is important to remember that there is a big difference between that case and our case. In the case of fire on Shabbos, there is no time to ask a sheilah. That is why you don’t ask.

    But when there is time to ask, you do ask. Someone in my family once had a medical situation on Shabbos that my mother thought might necessitate taking a taxi to Terem. So my mother sent me to ask a Rav. The Rav sent me to a local Frum doctor, but told me that if he’s not home, we should take the taxi to Terem. I went to the doctor who told me we don’t need to go to Terem on Shabbos.

    The point is that if there is time to ask and get a clear answer, you ask. In this case, there is time. The OP can take the same time he is taking to post and read the answers in order to ask a Poseik.

    #1337677

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Another very important – you and others are assuming that the Rav is an idiot who doesn’t know how to add 2 +2. Of course, it’s possible that he’s an idiot, but it’s also possible that he knows more about the situation and/or how to deal with it than you do.

    The OP stated that he trusts this Rav (in general) and that he is widely respected in the community.

    Why take the OP’s feelings about the situation at face value and not his feelings about his Rav?

    #1337711

    yekke2
    Participant

    There are three possible answers:
    1) Yes (this is how I understood the OP)
    definitely call the police. (Is there anyone, besides for Joseph, who disagrees in this situation?)

    I agree that you must do whatever necessary to prevent the danger. If you must, you definitely call the police. But calling the authorities – while often the most comfortable approach – isn’t necessarily something you have to do. If you can burst into the room and stop the danger yourself, you may be obligated to do that rather than reporting.

    Unless you are certain that there is danger, and that you would classify the abuser as a Roidef. In that case, you can probably לכתחילה call the authorities.

    #1337735

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    LU 1
    “it has to be a certain level of safeik.”

    Obviously. As the op said “…sounds like shrieks. It is scary to think what is going on. … Last night again I heard loud screaming and shrieking from inside. I think I might need to take matters into my own hands and call shomrim or police. …. I am sure that something is going on.”

    Thsi isnt a lost purse that might have something that somebody might need. This is a person right here right now who might be in danger. there is no reason to call a Rav. If the Rav got the psak wrong it is assur to lsiten to him.

    “I think that the reason for the chilukei deios has to do with the fact that different people are understanding the situation differently.”

    I dont think so . I think the main difference is people either not recognizing (or caring) what a danger domestic violence can be (and is!). (see below*)

    ““Shrieking” can mean different things. The word itself is open to interpretation. It does not necessarily mean a situation that necessitates police intervention”
    Obviously! If the OP had written I hear shrieking it sounds like a child is really excitedby a present she got or a woman is surprised by the diamond necklace she got, should I call the police? OF course nobody would say yes.

    #1337737

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    LU2
    “But why assume that his Rav is wrong and that the police should be called? ”
    Because the consequences of the Rav being wrong or infinitly worse then the consequences of follwoing the halcha and calling the police.

    “I think your theoretical situation may need more details.”

    but you dont get more details. There may be a fire. period. What is the halcha, call or dont call?

    “In this case, there is time.”
    This sentence proves what IVe said above. (*)

    “Another very important – you and others are assuming that the Rav is an idiot who doesn’t know how to add 2 +2.”

    Im not. (though that may be the case) Im assuming that like you (see above) he doesnt recognize what a danger dometic violence is.

    “Why take the OP’s feelings about the situation at face value and not his feelings about his Rav?”

    Becasue of the consequences of ignoring his feelings in both situations

    I and colleagues have seen busted eye sockets, fractured limbs, lost vision, and miscarriages as a result of domestic violence. Some (admittedly few) have been among frum people. I live in NY where it is likely people heard commotions, but didnt call the police. Either because they didnt want to get involved, they assumed it was the TV, or perhaps their Rav told them not to or they assumed “there is time to ask”

    If you think someone is in danger dont call a Rav call the police.
    I think you agree with the above statement.

    the only argument is how much danger is the person in, and is it worth taking a chance to find out

    #1337738

    Joseph
    Participant

    Correction: I meant to write that the shaila to HaRav Elyashiv zt’l was posed by HaRav Feivel Cohen shlita (not HaRav Dovid Cohen shlita.)

    #1337793

    Avi K
    Participant

    LU, there is also no time if you hear screams. If not for the prohibition of derisha el hameitim I would suggest that you ask Kitty Genovese.

    #1337809

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“LU, there is also no time if you hear screams”

    Absolutely no Heter to call the cops, when you could call EMS or Hatzolah.

    #1337817

    R4nd0m3x
    Participant

    Health, please explain why one would call an emergency medical service if one suspects domestic violence.

    #1337810

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Screams alone tell very little.
    There are people who scream because they are being attacked.
    There are people who scream in anger;
    There are ghosts who scream because it is the only way they can feel alive.
    There are people who are in pain and so they scream but there is no help.
    There are people whose natural condition is to scream, and they scream in response to almost anything.
    And then there are also all kinds of silence.
    People who have heart attacks but live alone and aren’t found until it’s too late.
    People whose fear of death keeps them alive after their will to live is all gone, who keep themselves numb using whatever means they can.
    People who are being totally controlled by another person, and don’t dare to even whisper.
    People who feel so small that they don’t think they have the right to make a sound.
    People who are long gone and can’t scream.
    People who know that if they started to scream, they would scream forever.
    People who have been completely abandoned and feel invisible.

    #1337893

    Health
    Participant

    R4nd0m3x -“Health, please explain why one would call an emergency medical service if one suspects domestic violence”

    Who suspects violence? The OP or the know-it-all posters?!?
    Did you ever hear of something called Mesirah?

    #1337924

    Avi K
    Participant

    Health, while you are at it why would you call them for a host of other suspected crimes? Moreover, did you ever stop to think that maybe the neighbors are all victims? Did you ever hear of home invasions?

    #1338033

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“Did you ever hear of home invasions?”

    Now I know why you moved to Israel from the Bronx – It’s safer even with all the terror attacks!

    #1338052

    The little I know
    Participant

    I am getting really tired of all these worshippers of the issur of mesira. Not because I minimize it, but because it has become a subject of lay people basically paskening whatever they want based on the concept. And this is with minimal to zero knowledge of the real parameters of this issur. I would ask anyone who is mouthing this stuff to please stop accepting the street version of mesira, open a Shulchan Aruch, and seek the guidance of a posek who is versed in the subject to provide guidance. Meanwhile, there is an unfortunate amount of “pilpul shel level” in earlier comments.

    If people were only as careful to protect others from shame, and to promote Ahavas Hashem, we’d all be better off.

    #1338060

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    You say protect others from shame, that and/or rewrite the script so halacha can absolve you from taking any action.

    #1338081

    gavriel613
    Participant

    @rebyidd23

    “There are ghosts who scream because it is the only way they can feel alive.
    There are people who are in pain and so they scream but there is no help…

    And then there are also all kinds of silence…
    People whose fear of death keeps them alive after their will to live is all gone, who keep themselves numb using whatever means they can.
    People who are being totally controlled by another person, and don’t dare to even whisper.
    People who feel so small that they don’t think they have the right to make a sound…
    People who know that if they started to scream, they would scream forever.
    People who have been completely abandoned and feel invisible.”

    Brilliant comment thank you

    did you just make that up now? Are you a psychologist? or a poet?

    #1338091

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    When someone’s car horn went off (and wouldn’t stop) at two in the morning, I called the police. I did not wake up my rav first to ask him if I was allowed to call the police.

    If you believe that makes me a moser, so be it.

    The Wolf

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 192 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending