Can an Ehrlicher Yid be a Foodie?

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  • #1460591

    Urdude
    Participant

    Does a Ehrlicher Yid judge another yid as Not Ehrlicher? This question can only incite Sinas Chinum and it is not appropriate.

    There are many different ways to be a Ehrlicher Yid….

    And one persons Ehrlicher derech won’t necessarily fit into someone else’s Ehrlicher path of Avodas Hashem.

    Yes, a foodie can be an Ehrlicher Yid, it’s a hobby like any other, and I might add that it’s a much healthier hobby than what other Ehrlicher Yidden find themselves obsessing about.

    Anyone who asked this question in the first place, must not be Ehrlicher Yid….

    I can’t believe I stooped so low to actually respond to such a hateful question.

    Why waste our time following such garbage, creating hateful discussion?

    Creating animosity like this, no wonder we don’t have the third Beis Hamikdash yet, isn’t there something more important to ponder on.

    Rav Pam used to say and I quote, “in a world where everything is ussar, everything is mutar”

    Enjoy your Izzy’s

    #1460664

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Why are you judging OP as not erlich?

    #1460759

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Gaon
    “The OP just quoted a Wiki definition , but basically the issue was if one can declare himself a Ba’al Tavah”

    Exactly. The opposite asked about a “foodie” provided a definition, in case there would be confusion.
    But a bunch of posters chose to redefine it with another definition. “making such enjoyment a priority to the extent that it defines the person and his purpose in life.”

    Which of course is fine, just be clear you are discussing a new definition of “foodie” that most of us aren’t familiar with.
    I have met several people who call themselves foodies none of them define it as “their purpose in life” it is a honey like writing or stamp collecting. You maintain it’s worse than those fine. But they are without question erlich, perhaps not the biggest baalei madreiga like we are
    Then
    Ĺ

    #1460778

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Having seen many chashuve rabbonim and poskim engaging in dinner events that were NOT tied directly to a seudas mitzvah and went far beyond what one might opine was necessary for sustenance, its fair to speculate that they were not worrying about risking their share of olam haboh or otherwise engaging in bitul torah by simply having a good meal.

    #1460800

    GAON
    Participant

    Reb Yid – A+!

    #1460868

    Non Political
    Participant

    Here is the Wikipedia definition of foodie word for word:

    “A foodie is a person who has an ardent or refined interest in food and alcoholic beverages. A foodie seeks new food experiences as a hobby rather than simply eating out of convenience or hunger. The terms “gastronome”, “gourmand” and “epicure” define the same thing, i.e. a person who enjoys food for pleasure.”

    Nowhere in the above definition is there any mention of:
    1. eating for pleasure alone (as in eating only for pleasure)
    2. making food your only (or even primary) interest in life
    3. eating in an impulsive or glutinous / ravenous manner

    It is the above behaviors that are problematic by the sources cited by GAON and others

    The Rambam quoted above by GAON teaches us that when we are engaged in activities that bring us physical please we should not be doing the activities ONLY for the pleasure.

    Making food your primary interest in life substitutes our true purpose for materialism.

    Eating in an impulsive or glutinous / ravenous manner would actually be counterproductive to deriving maximum enjoyment from your food.

    #1460917

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    If the Ebeshter did not want us to experience “pleasure” from ingesting great food separate from the physiological need for nutrition, why did he wire our nervous system and sensory organs so that such “pleasure ” messages get sent from mouth to brain???

    #1460939

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If the Ebeshter did not want us to experience “pleasure” from ingesting great food separate from the physiological need for nutrition, why did he wire our nervous system and sensory organs so that such “pleasure ” messages get sent from mouth to brain???

    It’s not a matter of Hashem not wanting us to have any pleasure, it’s a matter of to what degree we pursue it. The argument against being a “foodie” isn’t that we should live a completely ascetic lifestyle (although prishus has a legitimate place in Yiddishkeit, it’s not for any of us on the CR), it’s that being a foodie is being too much of a pleasure seeker. There mst definitely is something called a naval birshus haTorah; the issue is whether being a foodie crosses that line.

    #1460951

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Right DY, it’s about what crosses the line.
    The whole idea of calling yourself a foodie does sound like that. This word is a recent word, and is also created with yeridos hadoros.

    But as always, every person must ask themselves if they are seeking pleasure, or if this is a hobby they like/are good at. We cannot judge others.

    But, IMHO, terming yourself a foodie sounds like you are in the first camp by definition. It says “seek out new expiriences”. So, objectively I think one should not call them a foodie. If I ever meet a foodie of course I will be dan lifak zechut that I do not known their intentions.

    #1460985

    yytz
    Participant

    There is a halacha about not sipping your wine, since it is seen as haughty. Perhaps this implies one should not be a connoisseur, at least not ostentatiously.

    According to the definition above, anyone who appreciates the differences in taste (or “smoothness” or whatever) between different kinds of scotch is by definition a foodie. Same with wine, micro-brews, etc. I’m not saying it’s wrong–though it may be less healthy than being a connoisseur regarding actual food–just pointing out that “foodism” is more common than people might think (even if people don’t use that label.)

    Watching and caring about sports is another thing that’s analogous — a “hobby” or source of pleasure that’s common and hard to justify, though it may not be inherently wrong.

    #1461283

    GAON
    Participant

    Ubiq,

    “But they are without question erlich, perhaps not the biggest baalei madreiga like we are”
    Agreed – that we should not judge and I don’t think anyone is judging”erlichkeit” here. Erlichkeit is something within and is hard to judge by a mere personal opinion. Perhaps the person is not aware etc.
    If you see someone speaking Lashon Harah or in mid of Kadish (a certain issur), would you term him as not erlich or someone who has an issue with conscious awareness etc of the severity etc. The mitzvah of ‘Dan Adom Lkaf Zechus’ tells you the latter.

    Perhaps the question needs to be rephrased:

    “Is it appropriate for an Erlich Yid to call himself a Foodie”

    And I don’t think you would ever call yourself one as well – so why not?

    People are entitled to their opinions – as a general – if its appropriate or not. That does not negate ones personal judgement of any individual.

    #1461311

    midwesterner
    Participant

    This thread has been driving me nuts for days.

    I don’t know if this is what the OP is talking about, but I have a sneaky suspicion that I might have an idea. I am related through marriage to one of the food columnists in one of the frum publications. And this writer has used that term in her column once or twice. She has been called that term by acquaintances, and has adopted it a little.

    In the sense that she used it, it means only that she likes experimenting in the kitchen, and trying new things that give a little variety in the monotonous menu that we sometimes have. I have been with this person on occasion at a restaurant at a family get together, and she spends half the evening trying to figure out how to make herself for cheaper what the professionals charge an arm and a leg for. She likes cooking and baking, and has a little talent there. That’s how she got the job writing for that publication.

    I would say that her talents in the kitchen are a serious resume enhancement, even in the frum chareidi world. Anyone here who is looking for a shidduch for their son, and would hear about her kitchen talents and exploits, and says that they would reject her because she is too much into gashmiyus, I would suggest they are lying.

    #1461327

    DWKL1
    Participant

    the actual translation of ehrlicher yid= am honest truthful jew = when dealing in buiness
    but in the context of yiddish it means alot more it means a 100% frum yid all around not only in business but between man and g-d and man to man or bain udum lamokom and bein udum lechavero
    if we use the term in the actual translation then correct theirs nothing to stop a truthful honest jew from enjoying food
    but in the all encompassing meaning of ehrlicher yid one who enjoys stuffing his face by a kiddush or discusses food wouldnt be considered an ehrlicher yid in that context
    dont get me wrong theirs nothing wrong with eating and enjoying food but one who goes out sampling different restaurants every weekend is obviously not separating himself from earthly pleasures
    because one who strives to serve hashem and get close to hashem and works on himself spiritually will automatically separate himself from earthly pleasures as thats one of the prerequisites to attaining a higher level in ones ruchnious and getting closer to hashem
    this is ABC no chidushim here

    #1461328

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Define ehrlicher yid. Then, define foodie. Are they definitions mutually exclusive? You have your answer.

    #1461336

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Define ehrlicher yid. Then, define foodie. Are they definitions mutually exclusive? You have your answer.

    Ok, go ahead. Let’s hear.

    #1461434

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Gaon
    ” I don’t think anyone is judging”erlichkeit” here”
    What? That’s the literal title of the thread?

    “People are entitled to their opinions – as a general – if its appropriate or not. That does not negate ones personal judgement of any individual”

    Agreed.
    But the op provided a definition. A bunch of posters are using a different definition. That’s confusing

    #1461527

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Ok, go ahead. Let’s hear”

    In my understanding of ehrlich and my understanding of the term foodie, the 2 are mutually exclusive. My avodas hashem and yiras shamayim is my business, yours (the collective you – IE all reading this) is your business and if you want assistance, find a mentor, I am not volunteering for the job.

    #1461535

    GAON
    Participant

    “the 2 are mutually exclusive”
    APY,

    You can argue that there are “levels”/dargos but to say they are “exclusive” is going against the Rambam and others etc. refer to my post on page 1.

    #1461536

    GAON
    Participant

    MW,

    “it means only that she likes experimenting in the kitchen, and trying new things that give a little variety in the monotonous menu that we sometimes have”

    No one here is arguing against the above scenario. The issue in concern is when the title of Foodie is given on the account of one being obsessed with food.

    #1461556

    apushatayid
    Participant

    If the Rambam understands the terms ehrliche and foodie the way I do, he would be in agreement with me, the 2 are mutually exclusive. since, I dont know how the Rambam interprets either term, I offer no opinion how he would respond to the OP.

    #1461553

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Does a real ben torah who shteigs all week, goes to mikvah every morning, foregoes a smart phone etc. but looks forward to several hours on Thursday nights at the local gourmet chulent venue with his chavrusah qualify as a “foodie”? This whole tread seems to imply there is a bright line test on both “ehrliche” and “foodie” defined to a large extent on when induling in certain earthly “pleasures” become “excessive”.

    #1461574

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    A foodie is more someone who cares deeply about the difference between Tahitian and Madagascar vanilla than someone who enjoys his chulent.

    #1461581

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Real foodies despise chulent. They want things like Izzy’s BBQ

    #1461589

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I’m not sure why there is so much confusion. “Define ehrlicher yid. Then, define foodie. ”

    The OP defined foodie here iti is again “A foodie is a person who has an ardent or refined interest in food and alcoholic beverages.[1] A foodie seeks new food experiences as a hobby rather than simply eating out of convenience or hunger.”

    There is no need to keep asking for definitions of “foodie” or to provide other definitions like “making such enjoyment a priority to the extent that it defines the person and his purpose in life.”

    Now Erliche is nt defined, so perhaps there can be some confusion there. ( Though a few posters have defined it and it clearly isnt the same as a baal madreiga) but its confusing that people are still having trouble defining foodie. If you dont like the OP’s definition then by all means explain why.

    #1461590

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ GAON
    “The issue in concern is when the title of Foodie is given on the account of one being obsessed with food”

    No one defines foodie this way so to give a person obsessed with food such a title would be misusing the title.

    As an aside, if you read the referenced wikipedia article you notice that even using the term foodie to define the concept as it IS used in the definition is a point of contention. Why? Because the term carries a certain negative connotation which is not congruent (doesn’t shtim) with the concept in the definition.

    #1461950

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Now Erliche is nt defined,”

    Therefore, for purposes of this discussion, one can not answer the OP. If anyone wishes to answer this question they must then tell us how they define BOTH terms otherwise their response is meaningless.

    #1461963

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    APY

    “they must then tell us how they define BOTH terms otherwise their response is meaningless”

    Again, One term was defined in the OP
    And the other wasnt defined by the OP, but other posters (my self included) did define it . “An erliche yid follows what shulchan aruch says.as long as he washes makes berachos and benches the foodie is erlich.”

    Aagain you are free to disagree with either of those definitions., but both terms have been defined.

    #1462069

    apushatayid
    Participant

    A ben sorer umorer also ate kosher food, made brachos and benched.

    #1462090

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “A ben sorer umorer also ate kosher food, made brachos and benched.”

    Mazel tov.
    So did a zekan mamre what does that have to do with anything

    #1462205

    Joseph
    Participant

    “A ben sorer umorer also ate kosher food, made brachos and benched.”

    Mazel tov.
    So did a zekan mamre what does that have to do with anything

    Good point, apy.

    Ubiq, the manner of the consumption of food is an integral part of the problem with a ben sorer umorer.

    #1462257

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “what does that have to do with anything”

    Everything

    #1462277

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph
    “Ubiq, the manner of the consumption of food is an integral part of the problem with a ben sorer umorer.”

    Yes, though ben sorer umorer isnt like chukos akum, it isnt whatever you want it to be. you can reform some mitzvos, not all of them.
    Here is how the Rmabam defines the achila of ben sorer umoreh
    Mamrim 7:1
    אֲכִילָה זוֹ שֶׁהוּא חַיָּב עָלֶיהָ דְּבָרִים הַרְבֵּה יֵשׁ בָּהֶם וְהֵן כֻּלָּן הֲלָכָה מִפִּי הַקַּבָּלָה. אֵינוֹ חַיָּב סְקִילָה עַד שֶׁיִּגְנֹב מִשֶּׁל אָבִיו וְיִקְנֶה בָּשָׂר בְּזוֹל וְיַיִן בְּזוֹל. וְיֹאכַל וְיִשְׁתֶּה חוּץ מֵרְשׁוּת אָבִיו בַּחֲבוּרָה שֶׁכֻּלָּן רֵיקָנִין וּפְחוּתִין. וְיֹאכַל הַבָּשָׂר חַי וְאֵינוֹ חַי מְבֻשָּׁל וְאֵינוֹ מְבֻשָּׁל כְּדֶרֶךְ שֶׁהַגַּנָּבִים אוֹכְלִים. וְיִשְׁתֶּה הַיַּיִן מָזוּג כְּדֶרֶךְ שֶׁהַגַּרְגְּרָנִים …שׁוֹתִים. וְהוּא שֶׁיֹּאכַל מִשְׁקַל חֲמִשִּׁים דִּינָרִין מִבָּשָׂר זֶה בִּמְלוּגְמָא אַחַת וְיִשְׁתֶּה חֲצִי לוֹג מִיַּיִן זֶה בְּבַת אַחַת.

    In English if you prefer
    This eating for which he is liable is restricted by many limitations that are derived from traditional law: He does not deserve stoning unless he steals from his father and buys meat and wine cheaply [in order to have large quantities] ; or if he eats and drinks outside his father’s premises in company of entirely ignorant and worthless men; eats the meat partially raw and partially cooked, the way thieves eat ; drinks the wine partially diluted, the way gobblers drink…

    and here is how the OP defined foodie
    “A foodie is a person who has an ardent or refined interest in food and alcoholic beverages.[1] A foodie seeks new food experiences as a hobby rather than simply eating out of convenience or hunger.””

    Are you making a gezeira shava food – food otherwise what is the connection?

    #1462280

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    APY
    “Everything”

    Ok, I’ll bite.
    A ben Soreh umoreh is punished for ” אֲכִילָה הַמְּבִיאָה לִידֵי שְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים” Rambam Mamrim 7:1
    Im curious to hear how many foodies have killed as a result of their hobby?

    #1462743

    apushatayid
    Participant

    He also says his brachos, and recites birchas hamazon.

    #1462772

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    APY
    “He also says his brachos, and recites birchas hamazon.”

    and as I said so does a zekan mamre.

    Did you think I meant the ONLY requirement d be defined as “erlich” is to wash and bench?
    In fact, I explicitly stated the opposite “… follows what shulchan aruch …”
    A Ben soreh umoreh steals, doesnt listne to his parents, thus he is not “erlich” because he doesnt follow Shulchan aruch, although he may wash and bench, he isnt erlich

    A foodie has almost nothing to do with ben soreh umoreh. Certinly not “everything”
    Also you dindnt answer my question here it is again ” Im curious to hear how many foodies have killed as a result of their hobby?”

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