January 29, 2018 7:59 am at 7:59 am #1457980
This question is not only directed regarding Chabad Shluchim but rather any Kiruv Professional and anyone else settling down their family in some hick town or other place that has little Yiddishkeit. Does doing so place great risk to the ruchniyos development of one’s own children and family due to the lack of a strong Torah community?January 29, 2018 10:55 am at 10:55 am #1458400
joseph: I can’t answer your question but I have spent some shabbosos by a chabad shliach and he told me that starting at age 11 his boys were sent to relatives in NYC so they can attend yeshiva there.January 29, 2018 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1458414
Outside of lubavitch I think they avoid the issue by moving in groups. So no one is alone in a non Jewish hick town alone.
That’s what I’ve heard but I could be wrong.January 29, 2018 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1458415
By lubavitch, the Rebbe took the achrayus on his shoulders, and practically we see that whichever shluchim are mekushar to the Rebbe, their kids have a special Brocha with their chinuch. I’ll be happy to elaborate with a story if you’d like.January 29, 2018 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1458417
first of all ths shluchims kids know that they are a dugma chaya and they should act accordingly.January 29, 2018 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1458421
Its not like anyone in lakewood or KJ doesnt go OTD because there is such strong ruchnious thereJanuary 29, 2018 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1458444
Even if they send them off at age 11 or 13, their spending the formative years of there life with no experience in a frum community.
I think not enough kids brought up in such homes have reached adulthood yet for us to see what happens. My prediction would be that they will not frei out, but that they will be really visibly weird and different if they try to live in a normal community.
My big question is how those kids could go on to become shluchim themselves. The whole point is that someone from the religious world brings a taste of that to the outside. If you’re raised in a “hick town” and them become a shliach there, how are you going to answer questions about living in a frum community? You’re just as inexperienced as the chilonim.January 29, 2018 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1458445
CS: Everyone loves stories. Go on.January 29, 2018 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #1458487
I find it ironic that Joseph does not belive stories about the Lubavicher Rebbe, but will belive any story about a Litvish or any other Chassidic rebbe, no matter how outlandishJanuary 29, 2018 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1458529
I created an account just to respond to this thread, which was sent to me by a relative. The OP is coming at this from the perspective of someone born and raised in a frum community.
Having been born and raised on shlichus in a relatively isolated place, and now living in a frum metro community, I can tell you with 100% assurance that my personal yiddishkeit was stronger and less cynical before I started living exclusively among frum people.January 29, 2018 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1458575
ZD, what have you been drinking?January 29, 2018 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1458537
Children and grandchildren of shluchim have gone on shlichus, so your premise is flawed. Are there children of shluchim who are less or no longer religious? Sure. But I’m not familiar with the statistics.
(Not sure how to quote on this forum, I apologize in advance).
Regarding your last point – often, children of shluchim make better shluchim than their parents, because they are even more familiar with the requirements and needs of the people they are going out to work with and have more of an insider’s perspective. They grow up in a dual environment, receiving chinuch from their parents while also welcoming people from all walks of life into their homes/shuls, and that only makes them stronger.January 29, 2018 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1458671
As I stated above, I have spent a small amount of time with a “shliach”. I know that he learned with his sons on shabbos morning in a way I generally do not see (even among my family and friends) who live in larger frum communities.January 29, 2018 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1458701
OK just for perspective…
About why it works: garelik girl on shlichus in Italy attended a bayis Yaakov where the teacher asked this question and embellished with a mashal. Even if your Yiddishkeit is very warm and strong, like hot water, if you put the hot water in a bowl of cold water and add much more child water than hot, the water gets cold.
Garelik girl answered that yes it’s true but only if the pot is not plugged in. If it is, then the cold water also warms up…that’s the secret of hiskashrus. I heard this story from her brother Rabbi garelik of Crown heights.
On the opposite note, I heard this story but not first hand so could be the details area somewhat off.
Basically a shlucha wrote an upset angry letter to the Rebbe asking why get kids didn’t turn out so well, when the Rebbe guaranteed shluchims children. The Rebbe responded something to the effect of, I never asked you to put those magazines in the bathroom…
Point being if you are on shlichus as a proper chossid and behave as the Rebbe wants, and keep the hiskashrus strong, you’re kids come out all the better. I know many shluchims kids myself, when their parents are chassidim they’re the cream of the crop of lubavitch. Here neville you are mistaken. There are many many case studies of living second generation shluchim today.
But if someone goes on “shlichus” because they like the beachfront say, or even start off well but then compromise their standards to impress balabatim, then the achrayus is on their shoulders.
Or maybe even then it’s on the Rebbe’s as their kids may turn out better than they would have in the ffb community.
Point being, if you are a shliach as in shlucho shel Adam kmoso of the Rebbe, and do your best to lead a life that a chossid should, then the achrayus is on the Rebbe. If you’re not a shliach then there’s no special bracha.January 29, 2018 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #1458750
Practically neville, kids of shluchim go to winter camps, summer camps, and kinus together, and summer camp with mainstream kids.Also once they hit high school or Yeshiva, they often go away and dorm in the regular schools. So they’re not cavemen to the regular community.
When I taught in beis Rivkah fifth grade, I had a girl in my class for a week from a far flung community in Canada. Her parents send her to beis Rivkah in CH every year for a week or two so the transition won’t be difficult by high school as shell be familiar with each other. She’s not the only one.
In addition nowadays shluchims kids go to online school together and receive an excellent chassidishe education. In fact, some of my classmates in ninth grade came straight from online school and they were on par with us, and in some ways even advanced.
So educationally they’re fine. Socially the shluchim do their best for their kids as some examples above. Some also will send their kids to the local Jewish school for the secular studies just so they develop social skills, and teach them kodesh at home. Every family sees what their kids need and do their best for them. Bh now there are more resources than ever with online school and conference calls etc then ever before.January 29, 2018 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1458861
from the OOT kiruv families that I know, they have to be a lot more involved with their kids’ chinuch than those living IT, which is ultimately good for the kids. The kids grow up knowing that they have a special tafkid in life, that it is meaningful to be a fum Jew, and they are used to hearing/thinking about the meaning behind the practices that are taken for granted in many a frum home. In this way, they come out stronger.
It takes certain type of parents to be able to pull that off which is why kiruv is not meant for everyone.
CS is right that these kiruv families are not as isolated as a lone chabad shaliach in the middle of nowhere, but then again, the chabad shaliach has a strong network/support system, with many others doing exactly what he is doing- for example, kids may be studying online with other kids of shluchim around the world, while the kids from the kiruv family is going to the local day school with kids who are not frum.January 29, 2018 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1458548
First of all yasher koach on Dell announcing this AM it will do a reverse merger with vM Ware, with the surviving company taking the Dell name so you may need to update your posting name.
Second, you are right on with respect to how much easier it is to maintain your yiddeshkeit while living in Zimbawe or Antarctica w/o having all the sinas chinam so pervasive within ostensibly “frum” communities as our day-to-day environment.January 29, 2018 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1458811
out of town yidParticipant
I am in a non Jewish hick town at this time. here everything is very anti Jewish. If I want a job…I MUST be willing and able to work on Saturday, aka SHABBOS, for me, NO exceptions. I will NOT give in to temptation and therefore remain out of work and facing very probable homelessness here in a town with no Jewish support. Local Chabad shliach has been of no help. All here is complete gashmiyos. If and WHEN evicted to the street, I will loose all ruchniyos. Because I am so stubborn, I have no place to turn to for any help here. I steadfastly will not be available to work on FRIDAY afternoon or on Saturday. Ignorant goyim…have told me to just change my sabbath to a day later. then I can work, avoid pending homelessness, and still have a sabbath. To them, if I do not do so…I am committing suicide. Due to my complete stubbornness in not working on Shabbos i already have a court date very shortly, with no support, to be evicted to the street.Gashmiyos, already quite in control here will virtually eliminate all ruchniyos then. In addition….obtaining any kosher food here is both scarce and very over expensive. i have had to do without constantly, even basic items. There is very severe risk in such a place for ones neshama and ruchniyos. For me it appears that without immediate outside help, that gashmiyos will reign supreme. We are all at high risk in such an environment, JEWS, especially FRUM YIDDEN, need support to be strong in riuchniyos, as gashmiyos is present all over. We cannot forsake our own people, FRUM YIDDEN, who are very isolated in a gashmiyos environment. The Chabad Shliach CANNOT do it alone, he needs strong support from the entire Chabad community. And, of course, HIS ruchniyos must be like iron. It is a true sacrifice to live outside of any established FRUM community. I have personally known much too many formerly FRUM people who, after moving to a non Jewish area, have given into gashmiyos, and developed severe problems with ruchniyos. I am desperately trying NOT to succumb to this at all, ever. It is much too easy to do so. And, all that is for adults…..for children it is even easier to falter. All FRUM YIDDEN MUST have a strong support system and be united, apart they are naturally weak. I know that I have gotten weaker here, I only can daven alone, there is no shul here. There is no group to be part of….only goyim. Weeks can go by and I do not meet even another fellow Yid. A Frum Yid cannot be alone, we all need each other to help with the strength of ruchniyos, as gashmiyos is all around us. A huge challenge for Chabad is that they can be virtually alone, the adults have a hard time…but it us much more difficult for children. So, NOT only is it a problem for CHABAD, it is a huge problem and a huge sacrifice for ANY of us. As there is a CRISIS in NYC with the price of housing, too many FRUM Yidden are trying to flee….where will they go….will some wind up like me, in a totally Jewish desert? It is and has been a big problem in our community which only seems to be escalating. Chabad has paved the way in some areas, but they are often unprepared to take in FRUM outsiders.ANYONE….by moving away from an established FRUM community, is at very severe risk. Chabad must be linked together to survive, once the Rebbe was in touch with each shliach. Today they have the shliach office, and often more than one shliach is sent to a given place. Unless a shliach has been able to establish a school for his kids in his area at their level, they may still have to send their =children elsewhere for school. Once again, a sacrifice, for both parent and child. Chabad has developed a homeschool network that helps both shluchim and others. This has greatly improved and strengthened ruchniyos. But… living away from ones own people will still be quite a sacrifice and take quite a toll on ANYONE….no matter how strong they appear to be. I personally have suffered a great deal here and have had to sacrifice much. I was unable, for example to even get Chanukah candles, so I used tealights instead. Not the real thing….but all I had. Of course Chanukah oil is not here. Another sacrifice. YES, I could today ORDER such things on the internet, BUT I could not afford to. HERE, I have all too much experiences in doing without. A true sacrifice. Gashmiyos 1, Ruchniyos 0. WE NEED STRONG FRUM COMMUNITIES! With no one just having to look in….Ruchniyos cannot be winning!As a popular saying from long ago went…..UNITED WE STAND…..DIVIDED WE FALL……. The FrUM community needs to stick together.
Without support….we will have many of the conditions faced with all too many of our people when they were immigrants, newly arrived to these shores. The pressure was too great on most…and they had to survive in an alien land. That meant working on Shabbos for most, as too many Jews demanded of their employees. It was very hard then to have ruchniyos, and gashmiyos ruled. Ultimately we lost too many Yidden to gashmiyos. We cannot let that happen again. WE, as FRUM Yidden MUST strengthen our ruchniyos over the gashmiyos. NOT just ONE of us but ALL< of us, and together, not apart. ONLY Torah true environments will keep us strong and together. EACH new and isolated community MUST have outside continuous support to survive the Ruchniyos over the gashmiyos. AND….any leaders, especially the organizers, kiruv or Chabad, cannot do it alone. It is not only a sacrifice for them…but for the established FRUM community as well. A person needs their family and its support system to remain strong. And that family needs ruchniyos to keep strong as gasmiyos weakens everything. Once again a true sacrifice. Torah is our guide, without a strong Torah true community we are all in trouble. Until such can reasonably be established, WE ARE ALL AT SEVERE RISK. And, gashmiyos is the winner until then. RUCHNIYOS IS TORAH! Help us all….we all need it in this increasingly
.gashmiyos environment we all live in!
With the odds stacked completely against me here, I have so far endured. Without outside help, I am in deeper trouble than I can even imagine here. I know I am weakening. FOR ME….Shabbos is the strengthening glue factor If I were to loose or even change it in some minor way, all would be lost. HERE, in GASHMIYOUSVILLE, the SATAN is well at work. ONLY in RUCHNIYOUSVILLE is he defeated, and cannot enter our lives. WE all must be in RUCHNIYOUSVILLE to survive! Trying to survive ALONE in a goyishe gasnhmiyous Torah lacking community puts us all….including our families in grave danger. The faster such can be FIXED the better! WE are all dependent on it for our true survival. Without it, we are very much like the goyim and will not have the guidance to keep us the way we are and NOT follow their ways. One is usually very influenced by their environment.January 29, 2018 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1459017
Chabadshlucha- Why all the present tense about the Rebbe? Can you be mikushar to someone who has passed on?January 29, 2018 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #1459033
@toi, is that really all you can say?
When you learn gemorah, do you say, Abaye said, Rava asked, Rashi or Tosfos explained? No! We learn in the present tense, and we can talk about a godol giving instructions and brochos in the present tense.
Stop making the present so tense!January 29, 2018 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #1459014
Oot yid – hard to know what to say but better to say something than nothing. Sounds like a really difficult situation you’re in. Can’t offer you how to get out of it because I’m not aware of your exact circumstances and I’m sure you’ve explored your options.
This I can tell you though: we yidden by connecting to Hashem raise ourselves above nature! Even if it looks like you’ll lose out and lose your home cvs because of shabbos, it’s just a test, and if you tracht gut, think good, then vet zein gut, it WILL be good bpoel mammash!! This is the power of Bitachon.
Think of how many of us have big families with average income / skills. Technically, most of us should be homeless cvs, but we aren’t because yidden are above nature. Hashem gives us what we need and He usually makes it work through nature although it’s above nature. I don’t know who you are or how I can help practically but I’m just telling you I’ve been in a similar financial situation when I was just married and my husband decided to go to kollel cuz that’s what the Rebbe said, and at that point they didn’t pay. If they paid, it was 300 a month when rent was over a thousand.
My teaching job in beis Rivkah wouldn’t cover food expenses and rent, and besides, beis Rivkah always paid late so it really didn’t look like a sensible move to live in CH and go to kollel there.
So we wrote into the Rebbe, and got a letter that said that my husband should learn in a place with a Chassidishe seviva. And as far as the Gashmius were worried about, we should know that Hashem will send our Gashmius where it is best for us bruchnius.
So we moved.
And it worked. Every month or so people would approach us and ask us if they could support Torah learning (we are far from the only kollel couple and did not solicit at all) abs we got about 1000 extra a month.
7 months later, the kollel started paying a thousand a month and all the extra offers stopped.
Hashem is real. He will help you. Stay strong!!!January 29, 2018 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1459020
Y didn’t my post go thru ?
Too long, and no links allowed.January 29, 2018 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1459021
by hp I just finished my post and then my phones pinged with this letter with seems very much directed to you. So here.
*A Jew in Madagascar*
_The following is a freely translated excerpt from a letter the Rebbe wrote in the fall of 1961 to a Jewish woman living in Madagascar._
By the Grace of G‑d
Greeting and blessing:
. . . It was with pleasure that I received regards from you and your husband, through Rabbi Joseph Weinberg, upon the latter’s return from his visit in your community. It was a double pleasure to hear from him about your and your husband’s warm and willing response to the task of unifying the Jewish families in your area and bringing them closer to the practice of Judaism, especially that your husband has taken it upon himself to teach the children, which is of increased importance in our times, for today it is the children who influence their parents.
Certainly you and your husband are aware of the principle of “specific divine providence”—a principle that is a mainstay of our faith in general, and of the teachings of Chassidism in particular. “Specific divine providence” means that every event, great or small, that occurs in the world, whether involving an inanimate object, a growing thing, an animal or a human being, in its every detail and sub-detail, does not occur by chance, G‑d forbid, but is specifically ordained by G‑d as part of His intentions and purpose in His management of the world.
Therefore, it goes without saying that when a Jew finds himself in a distant corner of the world, far from his homeland, far from any established Jewish community, this is certainly not by chance. This Jew should see himself as an emissary of the Omnipresent through whom G‑d’s word may reach also this corner of the world, bringing about an increase of justice and righteousness among all its inhabitants, and spreading the teachings and observances of Judaism among its Jews.
In such a case, one should not look upon the number of individuals that one has the opportunity to influence. Our sages have said, “Whoever upholds a single Jewish soul, it is as if he has upheld an entire world.” If this is true at all times, how much more so does it apply to our generation, after the destruction, Heaven forfend, of such a significant portion of our people. Today, every surviving Jew is a “brand salvaged from the fire” who must not only fulfill his own role, but also take the place of those who perished in sanctification of G‑d’s name . . .January 29, 2018 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1459022
This is a very interesting topic. Thank you Joseph for bringing it up.
The feeling I have heard, and to echo WtP; is that the children of shluchim do better, because their parents do not rely on school for the children’s chinuch, don’t rely on the street for their children’s company and don’t rely on the community to provide a yiddishe atmosphere. Therefore they HAVE TO do it themselves. They do it themselves and they put their kishkes into it. Halevai, ‘in-town’ parents would would be so hands-on involved in their children’s chinuch. It’s no surprise therefore that the children of shluchim turn out to be ehrliche Yiedden and eventually shluchim themselves.
@chabadshlucha, The Rebbe’s brocho will continue to become true, for as long as ‘Shlucho shel odom kemoso’, and ‘Chazoko shliach oiseh shlichuso’, it will be ‘Shlichei mitzva ainon nizokin’.
A couple of questions, Gateshead is a very frum litvishe town in NE England, and right next to it, is Newcastle, a city with very little yiddishkeit. The Chabad shliach in Newcastle sent his children to the litvishe schools in Gateshead. (This was 14 years ago but may still be true.) How would a potential shliach feel about going to a place which is very near a thriving mokom Torah, as opposed to a place which is a genuine hick town in the back end of beyond? Is a Newcastle type place more attractive or does it make no difference to a young couple starting out on shlichus.
Secondly, how does the OTD rate compare in Crown Heights with the OTD among shluchim?
To end off, this is the opposite point of view, but we have to be balanced…
Ohr LaGolah, is Ohr Somayach’s training program for OOT Rabbis. They tell their trainees to only live out of the Yiddishe centres for two years, because they don’t want their children coming back to them as customers, i.e. as non-frum, needing kiruv themselves.January 29, 2018 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1459045
K.January 29, 2018 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1459046
…when I was just married and my husband decided to go to kollel cuz that’s what the Rebbe said… So we wrote into the Rebbe and got a letter that said that …
What’s this business about you speaking to the Rebbe, writing to the Rebbe, and the Rebbe giving you answers and advice? Do you go to his Ohel for these speaking/writing and find a note from him written upstairs in Shamayim and sent downstairs to you in your mailbox?January 29, 2018 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1459047
out of town yid:
Some advice was offered to you three months ago in the following thread:January 29, 2018 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1459054
When I was a bachur, I was told that Reb Aharon Kotler zt”l had guaranteed that someone who moves out of town will not lose his children.
Then I was told that he made a condition: that they go there lishmah.
When I got older, I asked Reb Shneur (his son) z”l if the rumor is true.
He responded that he never heard it from his father, but that it makes sense that he would have said it.
Both the first part and the second.
Reb Henoch Leibowitz zt”l also sent talmidim out of town and assured them that things would be fine, based on a Seforno at the beginning of Parashas Chukas.January 29, 2018 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1459051
@toi the Zohar says that a tzadik who passes on is found in this world even more than before (as he is no longer limited by a body). The Rebbe continues to give us koach and indoor us to do everything we do. Geordie613+1.
There’s allot more to be said but a) it was already touched on in past threads and b) the moderating has gotten allot stronger in my experience so I probably couldn’t relate the idea anyhow.c) I don’t want to derail the thread and as said, the concept has already been explained elsewhere.January 29, 2018 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1459048
“I think not enough kids brought up in such homes have reached adulthood yet for us to see what happens. My prediction would be that they will not frei out, but that they will be really visibly weird and different if they try to live in a normal community.”
I guess you aren’t too familiar with Chabad, but the first Shluchim went out in the 1950s, and they have grandchildren and great grandchildren on Shlichus, and frume Yidden.
A friend of mines grandfather is one of the very early Shluchim, and his kids and grandkids are all frum and Chassidish, some of them on Shlichus.
I was unable, for example to even get Chanukah candles, so I used tealights instead. Not the real thing….but all I had. Of course Chanukah oil is not here. Another sacrifice. YES, I could today ORDER such things on the internet, BUT I could not afford to”
I feel very sorry for you and if you would detail your situation here perhaps we could help you somewhat.
A little advice regarding Chanukah Licht:
All you need is regular olive oil available in all stores, all over the world. Then buy some cotton balls, (also readily available) and roll them into wicks. Take the candles out of your tea lights, and fill the metal tea light with oil, then place the wicks inside. Works perfectly, and is the ultimate Hiddur Mitzvah.
(From a Lubavitcher who has gone to places outside of the frum community, where ready made Chanukah kits aren’t sold). Hatzlacha Rabba!January 29, 2018 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1459095
To go with what out of town yid says, I don’t understand everyones obsession with forcing people to work on Saturday’s. For some reason this one day out of the week is such a sore point, even if you’re available around the clock the other six days a week.
Actually, I have learned one thing working all around, and in major corporations. “Diversity” does not have much of a meaning. Companies have websites for diversity. Diversity Officers who make in the six figures per year. Diversity career fairs. Etc. But if you cannot work on Saturday, or even on some religious holidays, they do not want to hear that, and this doesn’t count. The diversity is only for photographs and statistics. If we can get a picture of you at the bar wearing a cute little headscarf (the muslim one only), you are in. If you need a day off, sorry, we found someone “more suited” to our business needs.
Maybe we need a reverse BDS for these companies that are total and complete hypocrits.January 29, 2018 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1459083
Total: Geordie614January 30, 2018 9:02 am at 9:02 am #1459209
If the Zohar is not a “litvish” enough source see
Nefesh Hachaim 4:21
כך ת”ח שעסק בתורה כל ימיו ומת הרי הוא בחיים ועדיין לא מת והוא חי לעולם כו’January 30, 2018 9:02 am at 9:02 am #1459210
To continue quoting nefesh hachaim 4:21
גדולים צדיקים במיתתן יותר מבחייהם לאין ערוך
ולא משה בלבד אלא כל תלמיד חכם שעוסק בתורה מקטנותו ועד זקנותו ומת. באמת לא מת אלא הוא עדיין בחיים לעולם ולעולמי עולמים
מקיש הת”ח הצדיק אל אלהים מה אלקים יהא שמו הגדול מבורך חי וקים כו’. כך ת”ח שעסק בתורה כל ימיו ומת הרי הוא בחיים ועדיין לא מת והוא חי לעולם כו’
I’m not making this stuff up look it up for yourselves in nefesh hachaim 4:21 a very litvish SeferJanuary 30, 2018 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1459205
“A couple of questions, Gateshead is a very frum litvishe town in NE England, and right next to it, is Newcastle, a city with very little yiddishkeit. The Chabad shliach in Newcastle sent his children to the litvishe schools in Gateshead. (This was 14 years ago but may still be true.)”
Not sure if this is a question but yes many shluchim will send their kids to the local/ driving distance beis Yaakov etc.
“How would a potential shliach feel about going to a place which is very near a thriving mokom Torah, as opposed to a place which is a genuine hick town in the back end of beyond? Is a Newcastle type place more attractive or does it make no difference to a young couple starting out on shlichus.”
Good question. Depends. Some couples prefer a frum community as it has the amenities of kosher food, Mikvah, schools etc. Some prefer the hick town as the Jews there are more likely to not have any interaction with Jews otherwise. Those of us who go into chinuch shlichus, myself included do feel sometimes that we are kind of missing out on “real”
Shlichus, and have to constantly remind ourselves that this is where Hashem meant for us to be so this is the best thing for us and our surroundings.
Case in point, my husband and I looked into Nigeria and China… and ended up in a frum community across the world within driving distance of my in laws, complete with lubavitch chadorim etc. helping out with one of the mosdos. Sometimes it’s hard not to feel inferior to my friends, like the one who is the first to the congo or some other African country. Or my friends on campus. Etc. But this is my shlichus and I’m doing my best to make a difference.
Secondly, how does the OTD rate compare in Crown Heights with the OTD among shluchim?
I don’t know if there has been any case study, but from my personal experience, much much less among shluchim, and pretty much non existent (in my experience) amongst the very chassidishe shluchim. Even the ones who watched movies/ sports at home etc and weren’t the most chassidishe families, their kids are no worse than them and sometimes even better. One case in point: the daughter went on to marry a young man also from same type of background, and they went on to be the Rabbi and rebbetzin of a successful high class United synagogue in the UK. They still have a modern home, but she teaches kallas runs Hebrew school and many more programs and in general is the right fit for their community.January 30, 2018 10:35 am at 10:35 am #1459208
“What’s this business about you speaking to the Rebbe, writing to the Rebbe, and the Rebbe giving you answers and advice? Do you go to his Ohel for these speaking/writing and find a note from him written upstairs in Shamayim and sent downstairs to you in your mailbox?”
Such a topic, if it is to be addressed, must be addressed fully and thoroughly, not in half sentences and half posts. The mods allowed allot more through when I just joined, but now it seems anything they haven’t heard before in their community, even if with Torah sources etc just gets deleted, maybe dependent on the mod. So I can’t address this in such a fashion. If the mods respond to my concern, or they allow you to open a thread on this question, then I’ll be happy to address.January 30, 2018 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #1459954
CS: What it a “chinuch shlichus”?January 30, 2018 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1459707
Hope this isn’t considered derailing since the title technically mentions Chabad specifically:
Do you guys think the system would work for other kiruv organizations, or does it only work because Chabad has become somewhat of a kiruv culture (I don’t mean that as an insult). Most Lubavitchers at this point are either baalei teshuva or involved in kiruv so it’s pretty easy for people to fit in with so much uniqueness.
To give a specific hypothetical case of what I’m asking: say a Litvish kiruv family raised kids on a campus in rural Iowa or something. The kids go off to summer camp and learn online like Chabadshlucha said. Then when they grow up they try to move to Lakewood. Would they fit in? My guess is no.January 30, 2018 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #1459729
Also, not really sure what’s with the nitpicking of Chabadshlucha’s posts. If she is actually a shlucha, then there’s a decent chance she’s old enough to have gotten a letter from the Rebbe when he was alive.
Also, she wrote “the Rebbe said.” Sounds pretty past tense to me. Not that it’s relevant; people say “the Chofetz Chaim says” (present tense) all the time without believing he’s alive.January 30, 2018 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #1459879
People have expectations for these Shiluchim that they just cannot do, they are very special people , but they are not miracle workers. To expect shiluchim to put up people indefinately just isnt reasonable. They cannot afford to support people, many struggle just by themselves.
No they cannot put up your wonderful family of 10 for shabbos (without payment)January 30, 2018 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1459949
Joseph – having read a number of threads that originated from you, I have come to the following conclusions:
1. You need a job. Any job. Clearly, you are bored & lonely. This will give you less time to be an agent provocateur whose mission is to cause trouble on YWN
2. You are clearly anti Chabad… in fact, you are anti most things. Please refer me to a thread that YOU started that is praising anyone or any thing. Because I don’t recall any.
Now I can respond to your thinly-veiled sneers. I have 2 daughters on Shlichus, both in Europe. Their children are extremely frum and Chassidish – because their parents set strong examples. They know they can’t eat in other people’s homes & they are fine with it. Their mothers send them with their own party bags to birthday parties. Every time there is a Chabad Yom Tov they have their own farbrengens at home. They daven every day. Before bed, they daven, learn RamBam (I am talking about pre-bar/bat mitzvah) say Krias Shema etc. They get their own negel vasser (the oldest gets for the babies.) They say Tehillim daily. They are all tzanua, no matter the temperature. They are homeschooled/online Chabad school & they test way better than their peers. They go out of their way to help bring Yiddishkeit to old and young alike. And they do it all willingly, with great pride.
The ruchniyos is there. But there isn’t the gashmius that you probably see where you live; they don’t need it, they have everything they need and want, including toys, games, clothes, family time, schooling and camps. They are just as happy with clothes from Target as many kids are from the fanciest stores in Boro Park or Monsey…or Lakewood.
I really think it’s about time you & other posters who are resentful/intimidated/threatened by Chabad actually go visit an OTT Chabad House. Talk to the children, then maybe you will have the respect for us as you expect us to have for the Litvish/Yeshivish community.January 30, 2018 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #1459983
When you move out to a community to devote yourself to chinuch there. Our kids are important too, not only not yet frum kids.
My brother in law and his wife are on shlichus in arizona. They’re there for the local lubavitch school. They also looked quite awhile for the right fit and are also near one of their parents.January 30, 2018 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1460005
Wait hml. I must say I completely disagree with you. I don’t pick up any of that from Joseph, or Most people here. Why are you being so harsh? You come off as defensive for no reason at all. Your beautiful points about your family would come across much better without the snarky intro.January 30, 2018 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1459991
@neville I think the main point you’re missing is that we are all trained to be soldiers of Hashem and the Rebbe, no matter if on shlichus or at home. So the chinuch is the same which is why we meld together. If your take the Rebbe out of the picture the whole thing falls apart, shlichus included for adults as well.January 30, 2018 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1459996
To understand what I mean, you can watch the latest tzivos Hashem worldwide kids rally. It’s on you tube. You can search yud shvat kids rally 5778 to get what our chinuch is like.January 30, 2018 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #1460017
The truth is im being unnecessarily harsh on hml. I’m sorry. Maybe because I have many frum non lubavitch neighbours and teach in beis Yaakov, I get what the question is now than someone just surrounded by lubavitchers. Hml I think he’s just curious, and he’s not the only one. One of our neighbours asked my husband the same thing in a sincere way by our sholom zachar, and they had a whole interesting discussion. You have to think of it from an outsiders perspective and then the question makes sense.January 30, 2018 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #1460027
As Joseph has suggested, to be in a state of jobless and homeless you can be in any other town. Pick yourself up and travel to any Frum community. Go into any Frum Shul in Brooklyn, Lakewood, Baltimore, Chicago etc. and you will find Yidden willing to help you. There are private people and Organizations that serve food and lodging for the needy.January 30, 2018 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1460156
“Wait hml. I must say I completely disagree with you. I don’t pick up any of that from Joseph, or Most people here.”
Kol hakavod. When Joseph is anti-something (like Zionism, or the MO) it’s not ambiguous or veiled; he’s not anti-Chabad. I actually considered starting a fun, conspiracy theory thread that Joseph is a Lubavitcher where I would take a bunch of posts out of context etc, but I decided it would take way too much of my time for something that probably wouldn’t be allowed anyway.January 30, 2018 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1460157
“If your take the Rebbe out of the picture the whole thing falls apart”
I respectfully disagree. However, what you’re talking about with the upbringing based around kiruv and being “Hashem’s soldiers” etc. is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned the kiruv culture in Chabad. I think that’s exactly why it works in Chabad. It, however, causes the problem of people “graduating from Chabad.” It’s always a trade-off I reckon.January 31, 2018 12:21 am at 12:21 am #1460257
out of town yidParticipant
As I have lived out in hick towns for a few years, I have been able to observe quite a number of Chabad shlaich families, in action. I have seen both well adjusted families, with well adjusted children, and complete disasters. It all depends on the parents being able to adjust their children to a non Jewish environment, and also themselves. Lubavitch has a strong support system in place, with online schooling for the children. Although intended for shluchim children, it is open to all. There are two different programs at different hours of operation. One in ENGLISH, geared to the US….and one in Hebrew, geared to Israelis, on Israel time. I have come across Israeli children, who do not know much English, but are located in the US, rising at night, to study on Israeli time! They must sleep during the day!
Nevertheless, it might be easier for CHABAD outside of an established Jewish community as there have been programs started to help them, at their location. Some of these programs can and should be used by Chabad outsiders also, especially in rather remote areas. But for adults, maintaining ruchniyos is more difficult. We can keep our children a bit sheltered from outside gashmiyos, but we as adults must face the otherwise rather corrupt non Jewish gashmiyos world often on a daily basis, while still guarding our own ruchniyos in an otherwise hostile setting. The beginnings of the colder seasons in much of the US, can be a real challenge as colors change all over. When all becomes orange and black, there is turmoil everywhere. The entire scene is very much anti Jewish in nature. Sometimes I have a sigh of relief when red and green start replacing those colors. But no for long…as red and green are not silent, and one can hear such all over…in addition to seeing such everywhere. And HERE…I can still in now February, find lights all over, months after the actual seasonal dates. At least the stuff is long gone from stores. I try my best to avoid all stores in gashmiyosville during that time of complete gashmiyos. It is not easy as one must buy as much as they will need before that time sets in. A plain season where there is little or nothing around, is getting very rare. Now there are red, once again all over, in the form of red and pink hearts…..more gashmiyos THEY have one special day a year…..we have a special night period each week, EISHES CHAYIL. AND….we do not make such a fuss over it!
There is much gashmiyos all over.We are the only ones who merit ruchniyos. Without a Jewish atmosphere to provide ruchniyos, gashmiyos will reign supreme…as that is ALL goyim j]have. Goyim have no clue at all of what they are lacking, but we as FRUM YIDDEN cannot let their influences spoil us in any way.
We, as FRUM YIDDEN, must stick together. We need to keep together as a whole. Look at our concept of a minyan. A community, in order to daven correctly, needs a minyan on shul. Otherwise, one may withdraw to ones home, alone. I was once here in a group of men in a shul…..19 men….but no minyan….as 10 or more did not qualify for the minyan. Of course I was a bit embarrassed to be there. WE just breezed through davenning as there was so much we could not do. Of course the Torah sat in the ARON untouched that morning. It was a relief that the unaccountables, had no idea of what we were actually doing and what the group was missing. It was all very strange. But as they were either complete non JEWS or people who could not be included in a minyan for other reasons, they still had no clues to what was missing, nor did they care. I for one was a bit devastated at the whole episode. Nineteen men…..normally much more than needed for a minyan….and still no minyan! No opportunity to read the Torah….a loss for Ruchniyos….and a victory for gashmiyos. But, we as FRUN YIDDEN have strict rules to guide us, halacha, and it must be upheld. No matter the actual numbers of outsiders, true Jews are ONLY a community if there is a minyan or more present. And that community is the only way we are able to have ruchniyos.
We are all at risk away from our own people. Chabad is only strong TOGETHER. If they are in close contact with others, they are stronger. OTHER Jews MUST also be connected to other JEWS. A Jew alone, is very weak and little challenge for the satan. the satan has a much harder time with a minyan or more. The Torah, and all it stands for, is RUCHNIYOS….BUT, gashmiyos and its kind is the satan. BEWARE!
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