@Chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

Home Coffeeroom Decaffeinated Coffee Controversial Topics @Chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

Viewing 50 posts - 51 through 100 (of 484 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1461873

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    At DY ok let me make it clear: the Rebbe is the Frierdiker Rebbe’s successor, who is the successor of the Rebbe Rashab, who is of the Rebbe Maharash who is of the Tzemach Tzedek who is of the Mitteler Rebbe who is of the Alter Rebbe aka Baal HaTanya who is of the Mezritcher Maggid who is of the Baal Shem Tov who is of Achiya HaShiloni and R Adam Baal Shem who is of R Yoel Baal Shem who is of R Eliyahu Baal Shem….

    I think you get the picture. It’s one long unbroken chain and to discredit one is to discredit all. And who are you to think of starting up with these tzaddikim? I also don’t know what you mean by the Frierdiker Rebbe being controversial. Chabad has always taken a unique path as it does today – like how we relate to not yet frum Jews, the value of one mitzvah etc.

    And those positions are not universal.

    But no one is saying they werent Torah greats or tzaddikim except for some coffee room “experts” who hear half a quote, never bother to look it up, and based on that decide how great or ungreat the holy Rebbeim are.

    I hope you’re starting to see the absolute chutzpah inherent in this.

    #1461868

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    OK I looked up the actual sicha – have you looked it up toi? There are sources right there.

    So much for the Rebbe being his own source. But here I’ll translate for you, since we’ve come this far:

    From acharon shel Pesach, 5710 (the Frierdiker Rebbe was nistalek then, and the Rebbe had farbrenged the whole year about keeping hiskashrus with the Frierdiker Rebbe, until he was forced to take on the nesius).

    “Some ask, how can one even ask anything from a Rebbe, isn’t this the idea of a mimutza – intermediary between a person and Hashem?

    Others ask this in connection to matters relating to yiras shomayim-

    There is a meshulach who would accept pidyonos with regards to Gashmius matters, but not Ruchnius ones because he would say, even Hashem Himself doesn’t do this, as it says “Hakol bidei shomayim chutz miyiras shomayim.”

    And the answer to this is:

    When we say “Yisrael, Torah and Hashem are all one” (Zohar), we don’t only mean that “Yisrael connect to Torah which is connected to Hashem,” (Zohar chelek gimmel, 73a), but that they are actually one.

    So too with the hiskashrus between chassidim and the Rebbe, it’s not like two separate entities which then unite, rather, they are actually one. And the Rebbe is not a mimutza hamafsik (which is avoda zara -ed), but rather a mimutza hamechaber. (More on this later as is concept in its own)

    So automatically, by a chossid, he, the Rebbe and Hashem, are all one.

    I haven’t seen this explicitly stated in Toras HaChassidus, but this is my hergesh, so automatically, whoever gets it, will feel it, and whoever doesn’t, I don’t want to argue with him, he can be as he is.

    And so automatically, there is no place to ask about a mimutza, because this is Hashem’s essence as He has clothed Himself within a body.

    This is like the quote of the Zohar, “The face of the Master, Hashem, is Rashbi”

    (footnote : I have seen baalei Nigleh asking on this, and with a great shturem, hayitochen etc etc. But there is an explicit reference in nigle as well, and this is in the Yerushalmi bikurim chap 3, halacha 3: “and Hevaya in His Holy chamber, this refers to R’ Yitzchak the son of Rabbi Elazar in the beis midrash of Kisarin.)

    Or as we also find that even a malach who is fulfilling Hashem’s shlichus is called by Hashem’s name at that time, (see Tanya iggros kodesh end of chap 25), or as Moshe rabbeinu said, “And I will give grass” (Ekev 11, 15. Also see likutei Torah vayikra 50, 1)”

    Ok so that’s the full quote that toi is having a hard time understanding. If you actually saw it inside as posted, you’d have seen sources there, so the Rebbe didn’t make it up and it wasn’t about himself.

    Now if you’d like to understand more about the difference between mimutza hamafsik vs mimutza hamechaber, or any other point that isn’t clear, I’ll be happy to clarify. Just make sure it’s phrased appropriately so that I can explain :).

    #1461949

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    At DY ok let me make it clear: the Rebbe is the Frierdiker Rebbe’s successor, who is the successor of the Rebbe Rashab, who is of the Rebbe Maharash who is of the Tzemach Tzedek who is of the Mitteler Rebbe who is of the Alter Rebbe aka Baal HaTanya who is of the Mezritcher Maggid who is of the Baal Shem Tov who is of Achiya HaShiloni and R Adam Baal Shem who is of R Yoel Baal Shem who is of R Eliyahu Baal Shem….

    So says Chabad doctrine. Many others claim the Rebbe (and some say even the Frierdike Rebbe) made unacceptable changes. Al zeh gufo anu danin.

    #1461951

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    his Yahrtzeit ג תמוז is market by thousands of people visiting his tziun.

    Yes, everyone agrees the day has significance, but many avoid using the term yahrtzeit.

    #1461952

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Lubavitch in general has more emuna in Torah concept than others who are influenced by rationalistic goyish philosophies

    It’s that haughty attitude which gets people like litvisherchossid so riled up.

    #1461954

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    (footnote : I have seen baalei Nigleh asking on this, and with a great shturem, hayitochen etc etc. But there is an explicit reference in nigle as well, and this is in the Yerushalmi bikurim chap 3, halacha 3: “and Hevaya in His Holy chamber, this refers to R’ Yitzchak the son of Rabbi Elazar in the beis midrash of Kisarin.)

    Needs further explanation.

    #1461961

    aww
    Participant

    Just to add … if anyone has a hard time understanding the concepts in the sicha (the English translation is Chinese to me)

    the concept of the shechina resting in a tzaddik just like in the beis hamikdosh is found in nefesh hachaim (my favorite litvishe Sefer). See nefesh hachaim 1:4 in the hago I quote

    לזאת הרי כי ודאי עיקר ענין הקדש והמקדש ושריית שכינתו ית’ הוא האדם שאם יתקדש עצמו כראוי בקיום המצות כולן שהם תלויין ג”כ בשורשן העליון אז הוא עצמו המקדש ממש *ובתוכו* ה’ ית”ש

    This in no way implies that a tzaddik is a god ch”v ch”v any more than saying the beis hamikdosh is a god ch”v the real meaning can be understood by anyone reading the nefesh hachaim or the rebbes sicha. That Hashem becomes revealed in this world through a tzaddik.

    #1461962

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Yes DY I can explain further np

    #1461966

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    ” Rebbe is the Frierdiker Rebbe’s successor, who is the successor of the Rebbe Rashab, who is of the Rebbe Maharash who is of the Tzemach Tzedek who is of the Mitteler Rebbe who is of the Alter Rebbe aka Baal HaTanya who is of the Mezritcher Maggid who is of the Baal Shem Tov who is of Achiya HaShiloni and R Adam Baal Shem who is of R Yoel Baal Shem who is of R Eliyahu Baal Shem….”

    OOPS…
    I thought it was the Great R’ Aharon of Karlin who was the successor…

    #1461972

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I haven’t seen this explicitly stated in Toras HaChassidus, but this is my hergesh, so automatically, whoever gets it, will feel it, and whoever doesn’t, I don’t want to argue with him, he can be as he is.

    Is this a quote from the sichah?

    #1461973

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “So says Chabad doctrine. Many others claim the Rebbe (and some say even the Frierdike Rebbe) made unacceptable changes. Al zeh gufo anu danin.”

    DY what is your point? First of all, I’ll have you know that the Frierdiker Rebbe was the only son of the Rebbe Rashab, abd was the menahel of his father’s Yeshiva while his father was still Rebbe. So it seems like some people didn’t like something the Frierdiker Rebbe said and so said he made unacceptable changes. Meanwhile your haven’t quoted one person or one instance. But ok. Let’s assume this is true.

    So what are you doing asking for clarification? Even if let’s say, your Gadol said not to follow the Rebbe’s shita on certain matters, why would you think its acceptable to tell me that my Rebbe isn’t a good enough source for me? If toy dont follow the Rebbe’s shita, stay out of the discussion.

    That’s like me telling a Satmar chossid that he shouldn’t listen to his Rebbes shita on how to treat zionism because my Rebbes shita differs. Excuse me who asked you? I didn’t ask you if I should be litvish or Chabad. You asked me for sources on something the Rebbe said. Which I provided.

    That’s the discussion here. If you don’t like it. Don’t comment. If you want to learn, you’re welcome to comment. And even if say, that is the shita of your gadol, it doesn’t give young the right to decide on the Rebbe’s greatness as you are nothing compared to him. As am I. The most you can do is quote your gadol but that’s not the discussion here and I would not be privy to such a discussion on any case as I’m not interested in analysing machlokes of gedolim nor is it my place.

    #1461975

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Aww that’s great thanks. I was gonna go deep into what a neshama is, the role of a tzadik, how we Hashem and Torah are all one, but you put it so nicely and simply that it looks like there is no need 🙂

    #1461976

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @littlefroggie he was one successor of the Maggid of Mezritch, among many others (That’s how all the branches of Chassidus came from -the talmidei hamaggid. And he was very exclusive with who he approved to be his talmid…)

    #1461978

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes DY I can explain further np

    So can I. The gemara is saying how bad it is to appoint daysnim based on money. The gemara contrasts that with R’ Yitzchak Ben R’ Elazar who was a dayan hagun.

    See the parallel gemara in Sanhedrin (7b). See also ככר לאדן who changes the girsa.

    Nothing to do with atzmus in a guf, ch”v.

    #1461985

    Toi
    Participant

    @aww- It’s funny you find a sefer that was written in (a large) part to repudiate a good chunk of Chabad’s philosophies to be your favorite. Maybe a more in-depth study is required?

    @CS- I’ll take time to address the sicha later, no time at the moment.

    #1461994

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “Is this a quote from the sichah?”

    Yup

    #1462008

    aww
    Participant

    Toi very ironic isn’t it ? I actually did study it in depth I suggest you do to. I didn’t grow up chabad you know…

    #1462014

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    DY its nigle, not a maamar, so of course the context is a nigle context. That doesn’t change the fact of how the gemara describes Rabbi Yitzchak. And again the way you understood the sicha is wrong. See the nefesh Hachaim posted above.

    So are we done with that one?

    Moving on to Josephs question

    #1462044

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That doesn’t change the fact of how the gemara describes Rabbi Yitzchak.

    It actually does

    And the way he wants to have the gemara describe R’ Yitzchak is not how the Nefesh Hachaim describes a tzaddik, so he’s obviously not saying the same…

    #1462052

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Bottom line, his sources are really his own understanding, as he actually admits, so don’t claim he has sources.

    #1462070

    Joseph
    Participant

    aww, CS: Why don’t Lubavitchers believe that the Baal HaTanya is Moshiach and is alive and everything in the same sense that many hold of Rav Menchem Mendel zt’l?

    #1462074

    aww
    Participant

    DaasYochid you are correct. The Rebbe says it’s his understanding and he says it’s not obligatory on anyone else ie his chassidim.

    You litvish guys though HAVE TO accept it since this concept is clearly stated in the nefesh hachaim as I quoted above with no qualifications. הוא עצמו המקדש ממש *ובתוכו * ה’ ית”ש

    Ha ha ha

    (I really do want to stop posting here because it’s such bitul Torah but I couldn’t help that one)

    Bli neder this is the last

    I will leave it up to the readers to decide on the non chabad sources I quoted and see for themselves the obvious.

    #1462078

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Bottom line : the average chossid learning the sicha (as I did when I was in tenth grade) understands it like the nefesh Hachaim above. Both because we learn what a Memutza hamechaber is vs. Memutza hamafsik, and also as can be simply inferred from the examples given, all of which are creations expressing / revealing Hashem here.

    As far as the Rebbe not having sources- he said he didn’t EXPLICITLY see this written, very different than making it up from scratch, as seen the same idea from his examples.

    But as the Rebbe said, you don’t have to accept his understanding. “Yhi lo asher lo.” But do us all a favor and don’t put yourself on the same footing as the Rebbe, especially when you have no clue what he is saying, ie the difference between mimutza hamafsik vs mimutza hamechaber etc. Which is always the case when you misunderstand. Just say you don’t understand. “Bmakom gedolim al taamod.”

    #1462104

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You litvish guys though HAVE TO accept it since this concept is clearly stated in the nefesh hachaim

    Ch”v did the Nefesh Hachaim ever say such a thing as “this is Hashem’s essence as He has clothed Himself within a body”.

    Nor, if the Rebbe was saying the same as the Nefesh Hachaim, woul he have needed to defend himself against “a shturem” and bring “sources”.

    #1462118

    Toi
    Participant

    I have to be honest, I really thought this was going to be informative and intelligent. Seems like the less-than-basic understanding here, both of sources, and the depth of concepts being discussed precludes more discussion. What a letdown. I was going to start shtelling tzu the rest of that maamer, and the one where he calles the friediker rebbe hakol yachol and a whole bunch more godliness, but seeing as CS thinks her point has been proved with nothing other than the sicha that is a’z, I’m done.

    #1462119

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As far as the Rebbe not having sources- he said he didn’t EXPLICITLY see this written, very different than making it up from scratch, as seen the same idea from his examples.

    To back up his hergesh, he learned pshat in a gemara which is not the typical pshat. That’s still not having outside sources.

    #1462125

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    the one where he calles the friediker rebbe hakol yachol

    He did? Wow.

    Aww, which Litvish sefer can you quote which calls a human being a kol yachol?

    #1462126

    aww
    Participant

    Yes he did. he said ובתוכו ה יתברך the בתוך means in a guf (look it up) and ה יתברך means what it says . I will let non biased readers look it up and decide the obvious . OF COURSE this NEEDS explanation but the same explanation given to nefesh hachaim applies to the rebbes words.

    The Rebbe says he was not aware of sources in chassidus for this exact concept. Obviously because nefesh hachaim is not a chassidic source. And even litvish don’t learn it much, so yes a shturem amongst the ignorant.

    #1462127

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Lol toi. I’m gonna go into mimutza hamechaber etc to answer Joseph. But will see if I get to it tonight. You’re welcome to post any other sources. Will be interesting to look it up.

    #1462135

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Actually I take that back toi. Was trying to figure out that lay sentence for awhile. Goodness, some people never learn. Don’t want to rehash about ten posts so I’ll just say I can’t continue to answer someone so lacking in respect for Gedolei Yisrael. Really unacceptable. I can address Josephs questions tomorrow iyh.

    #1462140

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes he did.

    Called him a kol yachol?

    #1462158

    Bubbyo
    Participant

    A young Bais Yaakov graduate whom I taught, got a job as an assistant in an out of town Chabad day school. She was very confused when the teacher and the class turned to the picture of the Rebbe and addressed a tefilla to him. She strongly felt the dilemma, since she said daily in the
    . י”ג עקרים – אני מאמין …שהבורא יתברך שמו, לו לבדו ראוי להתפלל, ואין לזולתו ראוי להתפלל.
    She asked the teacher and was mocked, so she asked a shailo of a Rov who is one of the gedolei haposkim of our generation. He is litvish but has vast knowledge in chassidus and nistar as well. He told her that she must quit.
    I know that Chabad learns Rambam, so I don’t really understand what they do with this. It is quite clear and unambiguous.
    People who daven at kevorim, myself included, daven there to the RBS”O in the zechus of the tzaddik. Or there are some who ask the tzaddik to come to the RBS”O on their behalf, although there are poskim who consider that questionable too. But to my knowledge, turning to a picture and addressing a tefilla to it (or what/who it represents), is unprecedented in the frum world and is kefira mamash, or much too close to it for comfort regardless of any explanation from any source what-so-ever. These young children are certainly not grasping any nuance of kavano that might possibly differentiate this from one of the severest aveiros.
    I found this very frightening!

    #1462174

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @bubbyo i would also find that frightening. Never experienced anything like that and I’ve grown up and taught within Chabad. Maybe it would help to clarify what they were
    “davening”? Ie maybe they werent davening, but singing a song and the whole thing was a misunderstanding?

    Never heard anything like this by me or any friends and my world is Chabad. Easy for stories to grow tails…

    #1462178

    Bubbyo
    Participant

    To be fair, I have to write that the incident in the Chabad day school took place at least 15 years ago. Perhaps things like that have been corrected by now in all Chabad schools. I certainly hope so. But it is true stories like that one which made me fear for the future of Chabad chassidim.

    #1462182

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Or maybe they were asking for a Bracha? There must be more to it

    #1462162

    Toi
    Participant

    Lol, yup. (If we’re lol-ing anyway)
    I can’t post links, but searching for this sicha, I found a site called identifying chabad dot org, and found waaaay more material than I could ever post. Just take a look there, the guy does a great job. If the mods will let the source pdf through, it starts on the bottom of page 162. I suggest anyone looking for some clarification take a long look at this website.

     

    Link removed

     

    #1462260

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Would just like to remind you toi and everyone else, right now we are holding by clarifying the difference between mimutza hamafsik vs mimutza hamechaber. Which spells out why asking Moshe rabbeinu for things in the midbar was fine whereas doing the same with the eigel was avoda zara.

    However toi has reminded me of another story / that of korach. You see when someone has proven himself to be a messenger of Hashem, and one, even someone great, like korach was, impudently fights against and denigrates him, he is really fighting against Hashem, as Moshe and Aharon made made abundantly clear, and Hashem did with their punishment.

    Again, these remarks were made before the Rebbe became Rebbe and he said that they don’t need to be accepted by those who don’t get the hergesh.

    Half a year later the Rebbe was chosen and accepted to become Rebbe. And through his life definitely proved whose messenger he is. He was consulted and visited by numerous Gedolei Yisrael just offhand by the chacham Eliyahu, Rabbi Soliveitchik, the Gerrer Rebbe and many more. He never went on vacation all the years, barely ate or slept and worked around the clock for klal Yisrael.

    He managed to inspire regular people to devote their whole lives on shlichus and greatly expanded that system which has far reaching effects till today.

    So after all that to come and publicly mock and disparage the Rebbe, I hope for your own sake you do teshuva as you’re really playing with fire as korach did.

    #1462279

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    @Shlucha-“Or maybe they were asking for a Bracha?”
    -So that makes it ok then?

    #1462284

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    @bubbyo “I know that Chabad learns Rambam, so I don’t really understand what they do with this.”
    -Its very easy to pick,choose, and twist to your liking. Especially with years of experience.

    #1462286

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    OK, Toi, I took the bait and found the website.

    Somewhat of an interesting read, and they were certainly more respectful than the Chabad critics from the religious left or non-religious sects. However, their knowledge of specific Chabad texts implies that there are some ex-Lubavitchers involved with the site, and their knowledge of the Orthodox world in general seems more lacking. I suspect it’s a site made by disenchanted Lubavitchers who are now probably MO, and it is not a site that represents mainstream Litvish opinion.

    In their “halachah” section, they just quote sources speaking on general concepts (specifically praying with an intermediary) and apply it to Chabad themselves. They quote no contemporary sources who say these things actually are a problem with Chabad.

    They seem to have a problem with very mundane, Chareidi practices like having pictures of Rebbeim up, learning from their Rebbe’s works during Shabbos meal, etc. This leads me to believe the authors have no experience with the frum world outside of Chabad and a few things they learned by googling a catchy phrase like “halacha of praying to intermediary.”

    #1462301

    Joseph
    Participant

    CS, when do you intend to address my questions? Thx

    #1462302

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @toi,
    “I found a site called identifying chabad dot org,”

    That’s like quoting the failed messiah site as proof for something I don’t like in the Chareidi world. Pretty stupid of you.

    I think this entire thread is useless, and most of the commenters (you know who you are) are just “out for blood” and not willing to hear out any Lubavitcher explain anything. I have much to say, but I won’t waste my time with the likes of TaoI and LitvisherMisnaged (apologies if I forgot to mention you). @chabadshlucha you’re trying valiantly, but I’m afraid you’re wasting your time here. Perhaps use your skills in the comments section on chabad.org:)

    #1462304

    DovidBT
    Participant

    I suspect it’s a site made by disenchanted Lubavitchers who are now probably MO, and it is not a site that represents mainstream Litvish opinion.

    It’s hard to trust a web site that doesn’t identify its author(s) or provide any contacts except for a gmail dot com address. The whois data for the domain gives the name and address of a person in Lakewood, NJ, but that’s not necessarily the site’s author.

    #1462343

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    (apologies if I forgot to mention you).

    I’m moichel.

    #1462359

    Toi
    Participant

    @Dy lol, for real.

    okay chabadskers, the site is pretty clearly not one of MO authorship, given the various yeshivish/chareidi rabbonim he brings down Love how CS decides where we’re holding in the discussion, not having answered a thing. Again, this was a real disappointment. Someone please explain the troublesome sichas. Sechel hayashar- the material he quotes is authentic, his arguments sound, his criticism on point. Who cares who wrote it? (Though the IP address would probably dictate it’s a yungerman in Lakewood) Logic trumps whining, and you guys haven’t answered one source. Daveingin to a Rebbe, referring to him as god, calling him a kol yachol, believing he’s omnipresent and omnipotent, these are seriously problematic practices (very delicately and charitably put). That’s before we get into the fact that however much you want to rebut everything I’m saying, and try to explain it away, the biggest lubavitch organizations and mosdos continue to employ people who do subscribe to these notions. Where’s the outrage? Oh, there isn’t any- you’re all on the same team.

    #1462362

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “you’re trying valiantly, but I’m afraid you’re wasting your time here. Perhaps use your skills in the comments section on chabad.org:)”

    Na I’m fine although I did say I will protest when unacceptable things are said, so for the sake of those who actually want to find out, maybe they’ll stop that. As long as the mods are fair with this discussion, which they have been, and there are people who are sincere which I think there are, I don’t see why I should leave everyone hanging because of three or two spoilers. Many chabad.org readers are a bit too basic to share this deep learning, which is fine but not exactly an alternative 😉

    #1462363

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Was also worth it for finding out those nefesh Hachaim quotes thanks @awww

    #1462364

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Anyhow because Joseph is getting impatient here’s the concept in a few points.feel free to ask on anything.

    Memutza hamafsik is when someone goes to an intermediary, (outside of him) to go to Hashem for him. This can even be a malach or spiritual powers such as the 70 sarim etc. For a yid this is avoda zara as we need to go directly to Hashem with nothing serving as a bridge in between.

    Mimutza hamechaber is when we’re all one so you’re not going to someone in between. Like the knot of a rope is the rope itself.

    To explain:

    Every yid has a neshama which is at its essence, one with Hashem, that’s why when a Jew is faced with the certain prospect of cutting himself off from Hashem, he will find up his life, like we see by avoda zara. Then we come into this world which looks the furthest thing from Hashem.

    Our mission is to show how this world, which looks as far as it can get from Hashem, is really one with Hashem by living that reality in Torah and mitzvos life.

    All yidden are one neshama split between many bodies. The “brain” of the neshama, is the Rebbe.

    This means, just like the brain of the child is the only part that stays the same essence as the brain of its father, so too the neshamos of our leaders are one with Hashem’s chochma, they are our deepest part.

    So when you go to the Rebbe for a Bracha etc your connecting to the deepest part of your own neshama.

    However the Rebbe serves a double function: He is also Hashem’s messenger / ambassador on earth to help every yid internalise their inborn emuna and live according to it.

    So when the Rebbe, (a tzadik according to the definition of Tanya), tells you something, he’s not telling you his personal opinion of what you should do with your life, rather, Hashem is giving you personal guidance through the Rebbe.

    Hashem setup this system in the midbar and from then on. Which is why the yidden always came asking Moshe for everything, but doing the same with the eigel was avoda zara.

    Now you can also understand the medrash tehillim on kapitl tzadik “Tefilla lMoshe Ish hoelokim” “Moshe’s lower half was human and upper half- Elokim.”

    Meaning, he was so transparent, had no ego etc, until Hashem could speak through him and he could say “I will give grass…”

    Alright lots here, ask whatever isn’t clear.

    #1462393

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “That’s like quoting the failed messiah site as proof for something I don’t like in the Chareidi world.”
    I thought it would be too, but if you take a look at the site it’s really not anything like failed messiah. Also, scroll to the bottom. They have a disclaimer saying that Lubavitchers will react to it exactly as you just did.

    Toi, you aren’t going to see me giving you any sources to help the Chabad side because I’m fervently against Chabad Meshichism. There ARE contemporary sources (eg. Rav Shach, Rav Belsky) that one could use against Chabad, but the site you reference leaves them out. They use old sources, and bring them down in the case of Chabad themselves. Why should I care how an anonymous internet website paskens? If they don’t bring down contemporary sources then their halachah section is no better than the Chabadniks here not giving any sources.

    We’ll go around for circles forever here. We’ll ask the Chabadniks for sources other than the Rebbe; they will not provide. Why? Because they proudly have a concept of being “bittul to the Rebbe,” meaning they consider it a good thing to learn only the Rebbe’s shittahs. It has always been our way to learn all the shittas, even the ones we by which we don’t hold; that’s how the gemarra was written. How Lubavitchers can claim that it’s a bad thing to learn outside sources is beyond all logic.

    #1462400

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Ok, I think we need to clarify a couple things. SY – you need to just chill out. On the last thread, though there were legitimate questions, there was a lot of spewing and emotions on BOTH sides of the proverbial fence. But you need to stop throwing a fit and calling people out for blood because they are questioning concepts that they have been taught are WRONG. just as you are fighting against what you were taught is WRONG. So calm down.
    CS – I would like you to step back a second and have some understanding for what you are saying that you might not hear (which will explain why you don’t understand the responses you are being given). When someone raised learning from sources that loose pants are acceptable for women approaches me about why I believe she is not clothed b’tzniut, that is not called an attack. And I shouldn’t need to have contractual agreements about the preface for our conversations in order to answer her. You are talking to intelligent, learned, Torah observant Jews who have been learning and following talmidei chochomim for generations. Giants in Torah. If they want to ask you a question about things they have been told are foundation of your observance, that THEY have learned are wrong – you are wrong telling them: they are too simple to absorb your lofty learnings (there are plenty unlearned and “simple” chabadniks too) , or theat they are being disrespectful. You may not understand how your comments about the Rebbe are very very belittling of all the great Gaonim of the generations in our eyes just as you feel our non acceptance is disrespectful to you.

    You are going to have to accept that non chabadniks are entitled to defend their mesorah and Torah against anything they feel threatens it, and your job as a shlucha here is to provide that knowledge that would teach them why they are incorrect in that premise. But to start slamming doors on people for not holding your rebbe in the highest regard, which would go against our own mesorah, while you are unknowingly doing the same is just wrong.

    You may have to accept that there are people who have learned Chabad ways are wrong, they are asking you to give them information to change that understanding, and that the answer to all the questions CANNOT be expected to be: you are all too simple, you have to acknowledge who my rebbe was before i will tell you why you should, and you have to accept everything he says even if you believe that your years of learning have taught you different.

    I don’t think you realize you are saying this, and I think you believe you aren’t, but that is how it is coming across. If you want respect for your Rebbe and your derech. then explain why, and allow people to respect their mesorah, Torah and gedolim as well.

Viewing 50 posts - 51 through 100 (of 484 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending