@Chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

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  • #1464139

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    “If it’s not a legitimate Minhag, I wouldn’t do it, but I don’t think it’s problematic in any way.”
    -IF?

    #1464141

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    “so to quote it to prove anything about lubavitch is circular reasoning”
    If only you (and some others) would actually read what I’ve been posting, I’m not trying to prove anything. I was countering an argument which used this story.

    I’m not going to reread the whole (sub) thread, but I think CS brought up that story to show that Hashem allows tzaddikim to be involved in His decisions.

    Without getting into whether the story proves that (or what that even means unless ch”v kefirah), if it’s a story passed down by the earlier Chabad Rebbes whatever message is contained in the story would be a legitimate Chabad shittah going back to before the previous Rebbe or even the Frierdike Rebbe, so I think it’s fair for her to bring the story (although she may have missed the message – as SHY pointed out, tzaddik gozer is not a concept exclusive to Chabad or to chassidus at all).

    #1464147

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m not sure if people place a picture of the Rebbe under the baby’s head by a bris, it’s certainly possible, I’ve never seen it, but I don’t have a problem with it if it is done. How exactly does it bother you?

    Do you really not see how badly it shmeks of a”z?

    #1464150

    mentsch1
    Participant

    I was raised as a misnagid, and therefore I have been trained from birth to find fault in chassiduk thought In general and lubavitch in particular.
    That said I want to express my hakoras hatov to lubavitch. I benefit on a consistent basis from their efforts. My office is not in a frum neighborhood and the closest shul is a lubavitch shteibel. Due to the tireless efforts of the rabbi , I am able to daven mincha. He draws in many quasi frum people who probably wouldn’t daven if not for his efforts. He patiently explains the tefillos and puts on tefillin.
    I travel fairly frequently for work. As far as the Far East . I have been zocheh to experience amazing Shabbos seudos attended by an incredibly diverse crowd. The difference between Shabbos alone in a hotel room vs minyamin and kosher food is a true chesed to thousands of yidden worldwide every week (don’t worry litvaks, I always inquire about the kashrus from well informed people)
    These shlichim dedicate their lives to helping yiden. So why the need for harassment instead of hakoras hatov?

    #1464155

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So why the need for harassment instead of hakoras hatov?

    How nice, accommodating, and convenient Chabad shluchim and Chabad houses are doesn’t kasher problematic hashkafos.

    #1464163

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @DaasYochid,
    “Do you really not see how badly it shmeks of a”z?”
    As you might suspect, I’m not someone who goes for these things in general, (which might explain why I haven’t heard of it) but because I’m not comfortable with it, or think it’s a weird mishegas, doesn’t make it A”Z chas vesholom. A”Z is worshipping other God’s, and derivatives of this. This is neither. I also don’t approve of life size murals of the Rebbe in the streets of Crown Heights, (I’m far from the only one, seeing that it was vandalized) but my opinions aren’t kovea what A”Z is. Neither should yours. Reiki and the like give me a bad vibe, and they possibly could be Avizrayu D’a”z, but would I reject a shidduch with someone who’s family does it? I’d be rejecting quite a significant part of Klal Yisroel. (Lakewood b’sochom)

    #1464165

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    I also bless the men from the neighboring offices who organize mincha and also a later maariv minyan everyday so that we can all daven with a minyan. Such mesirus nefesh, Kidush Litvish! Kidush MO businessmen!

    #1464173

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    “These shlichim dedicate their lives to helping yiden.”
    -So do many other Jewish organizations. Its their job. Many dont even expect a thank you or any other recognition.
    There are also many who do it out of pure chessed and are so humble that that at most youll only hear of their name.

    #1464177

    RSo
    Participant

    SHY: “I’m not sure if people place a picture of the Rebbe under the baby’s head by a bris, it’s certainly possible, I’ve never seen it”

    I find this TOTALLY strange! It is done and has been done at EVERY lubavitcher bris I’ve been to – in a different thread I have mentioned how I have come in contact with hundreds of lubavitchers and have lubavitcher relatives – and I have heard it talked about. Yet you, an apparent lubavitcher, haven’t seen it.

    “but I don’t have a problem with it if it is done. How exactly does it bother you?”

    And you accuse me of not reading what YOU write?! I’ve already said that using an image as kedushah or a segulah is bodering on a”z c”v. As I wrote just yesterday, I can understand a picture being placed in a position where it can be seen so that people who look at it have a chizuk, but putting it INSIDE the pillowcase under the baby at a bris where it can’t be seen is attributing special powers to a picture. You don’t have a problem with that?!

    “If it’s not a legitimate Minhag, I wouldn’t do it”

    This is the crux of the problem! What makes something a “legitimate Minhag”? Because it is done in Lubavitch (I am currently shaking my head in disbelief wondering how it is possible that you don’t know about it) it is probably a “legitimate Minhag” and therefore not problematic. The entire discussion is based on things that are currently considered a “legitimate Minhag” in lubavitch which the rest of the world finds close to apikorsus.

    edited

    #1464181

    RSo
    Participant

    Re mentsh1 praising what Lubavitch does in Chabad houses worldwide –

    Yes. Fantastic! To be applauded loudly, and I do. But, as DaasYochid (I don’t really think you’re just a daas yochid here) points out, that has nothing to do with the discussion.

    It was the last Lubavitcher rebbe who started the Chabad house movement and he deserves schar for every Yid who is helped in any way, whether in gashmiyus or ruchniyus. But perhaps he also gets some blame for all the strange statements and actions that are based on things he said and did.

    #1464203

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @rso,
    “I’ve already said that using an image as kedushah or a segulah is bodering on a”z c”v.”
    Oh right, I forgot that you are the ones who calls the shots on all A”Z and Apikorsus related issues. I think I saw your sefer in the Seforim store last week, the one called “הבנת הכסיל” with the attached Kuntres “היפוכם בגולם”.

    You asked what his/her problem was with it and he/she is answering your question.

    #1464206

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @rso, (and whoever else asked about it)
    Regarding the picture by a bris, you thought it was absurd that I hadn’t heard of it before, well I haven’t yet made any brisim, but I have been to several, (siblings, nephews, cousins) and have never seen that done. I’ve asked friends as well, all of who never heard of this before. So we’re left with 3 options.

    1. You’re making it up, claiming to have been at Lubavitcher brissim and witnessed it. This is quite possible judging by the hate you frequently display here.
    2. You did see it happen. It’s possible, I wouldn’t put such customs past some clueless people who make up their own Minhagim at whim.
    3. I’m lying, and in fact I’m a mohel too and see this all the time.

    You decide.

    #1464207

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    if you cant answer someone without your guns drawn then you are the wrong person to respond. It isn’t so odd that people would expect patience and clarity from people who’s lives are devoted to spreading their teachings. PLEASE, either stop with the sarcastic put downs, or find something else to do. Why cant you understand the premise of this whole thread – people who DO NOT agree with or approve of Chabad practices are ASKING for clarity on some of the points they HAVE BEEN TAUGHT are problematic. Do you want to give them clarity or do you just want to prove your middos seem to be lacking here. enough already. If you only speak to believers than this thread is NOT for you.

    #1464210

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @Mods,
    “You asked what his/her problem was with it and he/she is answering your question.”
    He or she stated that she/he believes it to be A”Z or close. He didn’t say why it is, or what qualifies him to determine if it is. That’s not answering my question. I asked what is wrong with it, and he says “well of course, it’s A”Z”. Not a very coherent argument.

    #1464216

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @Syag, (how ironic that you’re such a frequent poster with such a name)

    “Why cant you understand the premise of this whole thread – people who DO NOT agree with or approve of Chabad practices are ASKING for clarity on some of the points they HAVE BEEN TAUGHT are problematic.”

    I get that. When I try tell you that something isn’t Chabad practice, you just get upset, this is not your first time making this comment. I’m very happy to explain legitimate Chabad Hashkofos to you, but there’s no need to lash out like that when you don’t like the explanation.

    Talking about reaching out to other people, when I meet non religious Yidden, they are almost always more respectful than you are to unfamiliar customs. I think it’s your personality, not your hashkafos. If chas vesholom, you were the non religious guy who’s door I knocked on, you’d be the guy who throws me out even before I get to say what I’m doing there.

    #1464220

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    youre a funny guy. I actually am not bringing questions nor am i commenting on the responses. This is the second time you’ve said my response is because i am not happy with your explanaitions of Chabad practices but i haven’t asked about any nor responded about them. So you are either confusing me with someone else, or making it up entirely. My complaints have been about the way you treat people, degrade people, insult people instead of answering. I commented on your behavior toward people and your “defense” or knee jerk comeback was to insult me for my name, comments i never made about your “unfamiliar customs”, and some stupid fairy tale non related to anything going on here.

    tip- if you want to prove someone is wrong about something, don’t personify their complaints in your response.

    #1464231

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @Syag,
    “I actually am not bringing questions nor am i commenting on the responses.”
    I refer you to page three of this thread.

    “You’re a funny guy”
    Well thank you.

    #1464254

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    As far as the bris, it’s true. By my son, some ladies brought a Rebbe picture and said it’s a minhag to put it under the pillow pillow. So we did. I’m sure there’s a source for it. In general, in lubavitch, a picture of any tzadik is treated like sheimos and wouldn’t be disposed of directly in the garbage.

    @DY regarding Nassi hador, the term was first applied to the Frierdiker Rebbe by the Rogatchaver Gaon. When bochurim came to summon him, he said “Der Nossi ruft” by means of explanation to his wife why he wasn’t even eating breakfast first before going.

    As far as how were they able to argue with him? Any tzaddik has this role. Hashem decides the rules not us. The role of Nossi hador doesn’t negate other tzaddikim.

    #1464244

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @Syag,
    “I am not sure why but it seems you think people are asking why it’s okay to ask rebbeim for brachos. I am pretty sure that is a fairly common concept, the question has been, if you will go back to check it again, how you are thinking you have gotten a response from someone who is no longer alive? We all daven by kivrei tsaddikim and HASHEM answers us. not the tsaddik. Even if He answers THROUGH the tefillos of the tsaddik. This idea of getting present day responses to present day specifics as if he answered is the question. And it is not a chassidus question as they do not do this once the rebbe has died.”

    Gotcha! 😆

    #1464250

    RSo
    Participant

    One point which I’m not sure has been clearly addressed. My apologies if it has.

    CS keeps telling us how it is a chutzpah to think of arguing with the lubavitch rebbe as he was a huge talmid chochom, as was his father in law etc.

    No, I am not comparing anyone to anyone, but Shabetai Tzvi was also a “huge talmid chochom”, and Oso Ho’ish was a talmid of Rebbi Yehoshua ben Perachiah. Furthemore, Yochanon Kohein Godol eneterd the Kodesh Hakodoshim for 80 years and then became a tzedoki. Note once again, I am not comparing anyone to anyone, just making a point.

    Knowing how to learn does not save someone from being slightly or even very wrong.

    And I’d alos just like to point out that Rav Shach zt”l was a “huge talmid chochom” yet lubavitch and their rebbe denigrate(d) him all the time. So why is the Shneerson family the only ones who are beyond even the slightest criticism?

    #1464246

    RSo
    Participant

    Sechel Hayashar, perhaps you haven’t heard of Chabadpedia (ברית מילה)

    על יסוד הוראת הרבי באופן פרטי למספר חסידים[4], נוהגים רבים מחסידי חב”ד להניח תמונה של הרבי תחת ראש התינוק על ברכי הסנדק בשעת הברית.

    And here’s footnote 4:

    ↑ כאשר נולד הרב יוסף יצחק ריבקין (כיום שליח הרבי לכרמיאל), ביקש אביו הרב מרדכי ריבקין מהרבי שיהיה סנדק בברית, והרבי לא נענה להזמנה אך
    הורה לו לשים על ברכי הסנדק תמונה של אדמו”ר הריי”צ. ועל דרך זה אירע גם עם הרב יהושע דוברבסקי (עדותו נדפסה בשבועון בית משיח פרשת נח תשע”ב).

    #1464252

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Here’s the sources from the Rebbe about looking at the picture of a tzadik. You may have a different shita, which I respect. As for me, this is my Rebbe. From a class I teach (to lubavitchers) in the power of Sight. We go through how looking at positive things impacts a person and also the opposite.

    ב. כל אברך שראה את הרבי, צריך בכל בוקר – לא משנה אם לפני ברכות השחר או לאחרי ברכות השחר ]נ”א: “צי פאר ‘מודה אני’ צי נאך ‘מודה אני’ “[ – ללכת לפינה, לצייר לעצמו את צורת הרבי, וזה יתן לו חיות לעשות את מה שצריך. )מיחידות שנת תשי”ב(

    א. ציור פני הרב הוא ע”ד ובדוגמת ראיית פניו, שיש בזה עילוי לגבי לימוד תורתו, בדוגמת מעלת הראי’ לגבי שמיעה. )משיחת פסח שני תש”י(

    ד. “וועסט האלטן ביי זיך א פיקטשער פון רבי’ן, און בשעת ס’פאלן דיר אריין די מחשבות – זולסטו א קוק טאן אויף עם, און ווי ער קוקט אויף דיר”. )מיחידות שנת תשכ”ח(

    ה. “זאלסט האלטן ביי זיך א בילד פון דעם רבי’ן דעם נשיא, און יעדן מאל וואס ס’וועט אנקומען שווער זאלסטו אנקוקן דעם בילד און דאס וועט דיר דערמאנען אז דער רבי קוקט שטענדיק אויף דיר, ובמילא וועט מען קענען בייקומען די ענינים בלתי רצויים”. )מיחידות שנת תשכ”ט

    ו. בעת האכילה – יהי’ מונח לפניך תמונה של כ”ק מו”ח אדמו”ר. )מיחידות לא’ שהתאונן ביחידות שאוכל ומתענג והוא בעל תאוה כו'(

    #1464249

    RSo
    Participant

    Sechel Hayashar: ““I’ve already said that using an image as kedushah or a segulah is bodering on a”z c”v.”
    Oh right, I forgot that you are the ones who calls the shots on all A”Z and Apikorsus related issues. I think I saw your sefer in the Seforim store last week, the one called “הבנת הכסיל” with the attached Kuntres “היפוכם בגולם”.

    And then you wonder why we find chabad so unacceptable in so many ways! Note that NOT ONE of the objections raised so far in this thread have been answered without circular reasoning, ad hominem attacks, or are simply ignored. It’s close to a”z because it imbues a picture (aka image, תמונה, פסל, whatever) with supernatural power. But you just don’t want to get it. Everybody else here seems to understand my point. Maybe they have a counter-argument but they all understand it. You just can’t.

    “You asked what his/her problem was with it and he/she is answering your question.”

    Thanks for defending me, mods, but I actually enjoyed the viciousness of the attack. And btw I am definitely a “he”.

    #1464298

    RSo
    Participant

    CS thanks for all the sources you brought from the lubavitcher rebbe about the chizuk gained from pictures.

    If anything you have reinforced my point. Pictures are useful for looking at, thinking about the person portrayed, and thereby becoming uplifted. This is not at all similar in any way to putting a picture somewhere where it can’t be seen and using it as something “holy” c”v.

    And I find it frightening that pictures are treated like sheimos!

    #1464307

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    my opinions aren’t kovea what A”Z is. Neither should yours. Reiki and the like give me a bad vibe, and they possibly could be Avizrayu D’a”z,

    Bringing in Reiki (I don’t even know what it is) is a red herring. I’m not claiming it’s a technical violation of a”z, I’m saying putting a picture under the head if a baby shmeks from a”z.

    A”Z is worshipping other God’s, and derivatives of this. This is neither.

    It shmeks of worshiping the Rebbe as an a”z.

    I see RSo also addressed why (it’s astounding that you don’t see it on your own) so there’s no need for further explanation.

    #1464311

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    At least now I understand where the misunderstanding is…thank you. These are not my questions, these are questions that were asked and then not quite answered so, as I have often done on this forum, I was reiterating the actual question thinking I could make it more clear. Which is why I started with, “I am pretty sure that is a fairly common concept, the question has been, if you will go back to check it again, ” and i end with “the question was”, but i probably should have written, “the question had been” , or “their question had been”. Noted for future reference.

    #1464312

    Toi
    Participant

    @EVERYONE-
    CS said “Here’s the sources from the Rebbe about looking at the picture of a tzadik. You may have a different shita, which I respect. As for me, this is my Rebbe. From a class I teach (to lubavitchers) in the power of Sight. We go through how looking at positive things impacts a person and also the opposite.

    ב. כל אברך שראה את הרבי, צריך בכל בוקר – לא משנה אם לפני ברכות השחר או לאחרי ברכות השחר ]נ”א: “צי פאר ‘מודה אני’ צי נאך ‘מודה אני’ “[ – ללכת לפינה, לצייר לעצמו את צורת הרבי, וזה יתן לו חיות לעשות את מה שצריך. )מיחידות שנת תשי”ב(

    א. ציור פני הרב הוא ע”ד ובדוגמת ראיית פניו, שיש בזה עילוי לגבי לימוד תורתו, בדוגמת מעלת הראי’ לגבי שמיעה. )משיחת פסח שני תש”י(

    ד. “וועסט האלטן ביי זיך א פיקטשער פון רבי’ן, און בשעת ס’פאלן דיר אריין די מחשבות – זולסטו א קוק טאן אויף עם, און ווי ער קוקט אויף דיר”. )מיחידות שנת תשכ”ח(

    ה. “זאלסט האלטן ביי זיך א בילד פון דעם רבי’ן דעם נשיא, און יעדן מאל וואס ס’וועט אנקומען שווער זאלסטו אנקוקן דעם בילד און דאס וועט דיר דערמאנען אז דער רבי קוקט שטענדיק אויף דיר, ובמילא וועט מען קענען בייקומען די ענינים בלתי רצויים”. )מיחידות שנת תשכ”ט

    ו. בעת האכילה – יהי’ מונח לפניך תמונה של כ”ק מו”ח אדמו”ר. )מיחידות לא’ שהתאונן ביחידות שאוכל ומתענג והוא בעל תאוה כו'(”

    I this doesn’t close the conversation, I don’t know what does. Shivisi harebbe linegdi samid, anyone?

    #1464313

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Reiki is an alternative healing method
    There is a recent book published with All of Rav Belsky’s letters on reiki and other healing methods. Basically he says they all originate from a’z
    Red strings tied around wrists is “darcei amory”(braisa in shabbos)
    There are plenty of things done by non Lubavitch that either can be labeled am horatzis or shmeck of a’z.
    Frankly in the eyes of all litvaks 200 yrs ago all chassidus shmeked of a’z.

    #1464317

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Illustrating the point, CS was asked by someone else about using a tzaddik picture specifically when it is placed where it cannot be seen. And the point of it not being seen was echoed by him and others. CS responded with a lesson on sight and the reasons for looking at a tzaddik picture. My first thought is to was to “resubmit” the question, emphasizing the fact that the ikkar was overlooked. A comment to the process, not the question or answer.

    #1464326

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The bris picture is just a distraction.

    I have to say, even being on the evil, misnagdish, hater side myself, I don’t see why we say putting pictures in a stroller, Sphardim kissing pictures of the Baba Sali is all fine, but when you put the picture under a pillow it’s full blown avoida zara. It seems like circular logic: “What’s a Chabad minhag that’s A”Z? The pillow picture. Why is it A”Z? Because it’s practiced by a people we suspect of avoida zara.”

    For that reason, I don’t agree with using the pillow picture as a source of the problem.

    #1464328

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Syag there were two questions, one about the picture of the Rebbe bichlal and the second about the bris. I answered in two separate posts.

    #1464370

    big deal
    Participant

    It’s fairly obvious that CS/SY cannot answer the questions. I believe that is because they don’t get it. This is how they were raised and don’t understand what is being asked. Every time someone questions a practice, they bring a proof that exacerbates the problem.

    CS: I’m not as nice as Daas Yochid. I don’t think that you originally made a mistake with semantics with that whole partner thing. I think you’re havana is messed up on this whole Inyan. SY said well. Go learn the ikkarim like the Aseres Hadibros and the 13 Ikrei Emunah first. You need to have that deeply ingrained in you before you will be ready to go on to anything else. Especially Kiruv and/or teaching.

    Edited

    #1464498

    mentsch1
    Participant

    I recently saw a 40 page document written by a charedi on a crusade to tear down the kabbalh . He has many valid comments, but time seems to decide these issues for us. The ARI is considered a Gadol. Shabtai Tzvi was quickly recognized and washed away.
    Many think some tefillos we have started with shabtai tzvi, yet we still say them (Rabbbi Reisman has a shiur on this).
    Many minhagim are of questionable origin . Yet we still do them long after the controversies die down.
    Time will decide his also.
    I remember after the Rebbe passed away, many predicted the imminent demise of lubavitch due to messianism. Instead they are growing by leaps and bounds. There should be no greater testament to their l’shem shamayim desires then Hashem’s granting them this success.
    Of course we can ask on things that bother us. Many minhagim bother me about a lot of groups. But frankly since our religion essentially demands that we keep the minhagim of our fathers, all these things brought up will be established as minhag for lubavitch within a generation or two. Unless Rabbanim in Lubavitch stop what they feel is questionable practices. And if they don’t, these things essentially have the stamp of approval of their daas torah and how can we ask those who follow those rabbanim to stop following their daas torah?

    #1464508

    5ish
    Participant

    @toi

    “I this doesn’t close the conversation, I don’t know what does. Shivisi harebbe linegdi samid, anyone?”

    Kav Hayashar mentions that a person should imagine the image of a righteous person before him in order to install awe in him. Kav Hayashar is a sefer written in teh 16th century that recent printings have haskamos from a wide variety of Gedolei Yisroel.

    Perhaps you ought not to speak about things which you are so clearly lacking education about, and then you can at least keep up the appearance of being a Ben Torah instead of looking like a yoshev karnaim.

    #1464505

    GAON
    Participant

    DY/Toi/Sechel

    “I’m not sure if people place a picture of the Rebbe under the baby’s head by a bris, it’s certainly possible, I’ve never seen it, but I don’t have a problem with it if it is done. How exactly does it bother you?

    Do you really not see how badly it shmeks of a”z?”
    “ב. כל אברך שראה את הרבי, צריך בכל בוקר – לא משנה אם לפני ברכות השחר או לאחרי ברכות השחר ]נ”א: “צי פאר ‘מודה אני’ צי נאך ‘מודה אני’ “[ – ללכת לפינה, לצייר לעצמו את צורת הרבי, וזה יתן לו חיות לעשות את מה שצריך. )מיחידות שנת תשי”ב(”

    It seems like we have two separate issues in concern with the “pictures”.

    One can be somewhat justified as the intent of the following known Gemorah of Rebbe saying that he was zochah to exceed his colleagues because he saw Rav Meir:

    בגמ’ עירובין י”ג ע”ב: אמר רבי האי דמחדדנא מחבראי דחזיתיה לרבי מאיר מאחוריה ואילו חזיתיה מקמיה הוה מחדדנא טפי דכתיב והיו עיניך ראות את מוריך

    There various different pshatim explaining the above see Marshah, Iyun Yaakov etc. However the Toras Chaim explains:

    התורת חיים בעירובין שם ד”ה דחזיתיה , שהטעם שזכה רבי להיות מחודד מחבריו לפי שהשכינה היתה שורה על רבי מאיר כדמשמע במדרש ]במדבר רבה פ”ט, כ] שהיה רבי מאיר צופה ברוח הקודש, ולכך כל מי שזכה לראותו נמשך עליו שפע רוח הקודש

    Meaning, that you are indeed mekabel Hashpoah via connecting to someone who has Hashraos Haschina by the act of just looking at him. (the same works the other way around, “Aser LeHistakel Bfnei Adam Rasha”)

    Also see the Radvaz in the following link (last paragraph at the very end of the page) how he explains at length the connection of a Rebbi via by the act of just staring..

    “תתקשר נפשו בנפשו ע”י ראייתו ויחול עליו מהשפע שיש על רבו וזה נקרא אצל חכמים סוד העיבור בחיי שניהם”

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1952&st=&pgnum=342

    However, all that is only relevant to the actual live Rebbe.

    Especially, given that the reason as per “Hashroes Haschinah” on the Rebbe, whereas a very picture is exactly the other way around, as the following Yaros Devash explaining the very concept of pictures as Tumah – “Ruach Rah” :

    היערות דבש ח”א דרוש ב’:

    “וביחוד צריך שימור על הסתכלות במראות, כי כבר נודע מ”ש הזוהר [עיין פ’ פקודי רס”ז ע”ב] ומקובלים, כי בכל דיוקן ודיוקן אית רוח השורה, ולכן המסתכל במראה ללא צורך כנ”ל, הרוח מתלבש בדיוקנא, ומזיק לו במותו וגורם רעה לעצמו, כי ידוע תדע, כי אין לך פרצוף וצלם תבנית עץ ואבן, שאין עליו שורה רוח ומזיק:
    ומאד יש לאדם להזהר מבלי להיות בתוך ביתו פרצוף וצלם בצורה בולטת, ואפי’ צורה מצוירת בכותל יש להזהר, כי אין לך צלם ודמות דלא שריה ביה רוח רעה.

    Furthermore, see the following link the שו”ת דברי מלכיאל ח”ג סימן נ”ח prohibiting any photographs.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=804&st=&pgnum=85

    Whilst I won’t say it is Aser but to say it has somewhat of a “Kedusha” that is absurd.

    Now as for the Chabad reasons mentioned :
    “”ב. כל אברך שראה את הרבי, צריך בכל בוקר – לא משנה אם לפני ברכות השחר או לאחרי ברכות השחר ]נ”א: “צי פאר ‘מודה אני’ צי נאך ‘מודה אני’ “[ – ללכת לפינה, לצייר לעצמו את צורת הרבי, וזה יתן לו חיות לעשות את מה שצריך. )מיחידות שנת תשי”ב(”

    This can be justified as a way of of achieving similar to what Yoseph had “נראתה לו דמות דיוקנו של יעקב”.

    However, the other actions have no justifications in any shape or form, other than pure ignorance of thinking a picture has any Kedusha, when its the exact opposite!

    #1464517

    5ish
    Participant

    @sechelhayashar

    “Reiki and the like give me a bad vibe, and they possibly could be Avizrayu D’a”z, but would I reject a shidduch with someone who’s family does it? I’d be rejecting quite a significant part of Klal Yisroel. (Lakewood b’sochom)”

    You certainly should reject a shidduch with a person who does it, as that person would themselves be either a baal avoda zara or a mechashef. During different eras there were significant portions of klal yisroel who were literally involved with Avoda Zara Mamesh. Had you lived during those times would you not reject a shidduch because “a significant part of klal yisroel do it?”

    This thread is like the embodiment of the expression “If you lay down with dogs you wake up with fleas”

    #1464514

    GAON
    Participant

    “Nassi hador, the term was first applied to the Frierdiker Rebbe by the Rogatchaver Gaon. When bochurim came to summon him, he said “Der Nossi ruft” by means of explanation to his wife why he wasn’t even eating breakfast first before going.”

    CS,

    Do you have a source to the above story. I hardly believe the Rogatchaver said that. He wasn’t even a Chasid of the Rashab (let alone the Rayatz) , he was was a chasid of the Kapuster and went to the Tzemech as a child.

    #1464515

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    I was walking to school this morning and I got what’s bothering lots of people here. I can clear it up with two posts. Will posts later iyh

    #1464534

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    “Der Nossi ruft”

    The absence of the word “hador” makes that story irelevant to the discussion.

    #1464550

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    For that reason, I don’t agree with using the pillow picture as a source of the problem.
    then don’t, but your presentation of what you see as the argument is more than a bit off. Which is probably why you don’t agree with it.

    CS – I don’t think there were two questions, one about the picture and one about the bris. The question (NOT MINE) was about putting a picture where it IS NOT VISIBLE, which is done at a bris. This was stated, restated and restated at least three times so, again, I have to wonder if you are innocently distorting the questions (WHICH AREN’T MINE) or deliberately.

    5ish – thanks for joining the attacks! Love when people call you names for not being learned. Although I say again that hearing it from you is surprising. If you think someone is missing information instead of deciding to degrade them, try explaining. I’m pretty sure it’s more halachically appropriate and it certainly would go further. If you and your buddies cannot shake the old impressions and will accuse every questioner of being insincere then you are in the wrong profession.

    #1464551

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    First post hashkafa post. Second a practical answer :

    Hashkafa:

    The concept of achdus Hashem as elucidated by the Alter Rebbe in shaar hayichud vhoemuna goes as follows:

    The cannot be any separate existence other than Hashem (ain od milvado). So how do we experience a world where it does look that way?

    Because Hashem hides this reality from us but by Him He was never separate from anything and is still one with it. So creation added nothing to His Oneness.

    (A modern day example would be seeing the website, and not seeing that is really all letters, the exciting visuals area a facade)

    So really everything is one with Hashem. Our job is just to reveal it. We reveal it by 1) doing mitzvos asei 2) using divrei rishus for Hashem.

    The ultimate of all our work is when moshiach comes, and the facade that allowed us to have bechira chofshis
    will be lifted, and all the G-dly energy we drew down through our mitzvos will be revealed in the world we refined.

    Kedusha is anything batul to Hashem. Klipa / avoda zara is something that acts like it’s own power or entity – elokim acherim.

    We are a microcosm of the world – and the same goals are expected of each of us –

    To work on getting rid of lessening our own ego and making what Hashem wants we want. The more we do that, the more Hashem can dwell on us as it says about a Baal guava ain ani vhu yocholin ladur.

    A person who completely conquers his yetzer hara and had no more ulterior motives / selfish desires, and only wants to fulfill Ratzon Hashem, is a tzadik and Hashem dwells on him to various degrees depending on how much of a tzadik he is. Some have ruach hakodesh, they aren’t bound by nature and can accomplish the impossible etc. because the more kadosh a person is, the more they can access these levels of kedusha which out them above the world – like tzadik gozer vHKBH mekayem.

    A tzadik today is like the beis Hamikdash – Hashem dwells within and by visiting and being mekushar to a tzadik, it helps one grow in their Avodas Hashem.

    So basically the root of avoda zara is arrogance, and anything kadosh is batul to Hashem. A tzadik can’t be avoda zara just like the beis Hamikdash isn’t avoda zara because his whole being is batul.

    Ok lots here – each line can reference a whole
    perek or more which is why I’m being scarce and not explanatory as I can’t write out whole prakim of Tanya. Abs maamarim etc. But you can ask for more if you want.

    #1464554

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    This thread is like the embodiment of the expression “If you lay down with dogs you wake up with fleas”

    is this supposed to be a way of expressing what is bothering you and educating the ignorant so that they should become educated? Why in the world can we not get answers that don’t involve this kind of garbage? Not being Chabad, knowing Chabad or learning Chabad means everything I say is an attack and I can’t possibly be worthy of any of the information that you are so tightly guarding that you would rather treat me like dirt than share? Nice. I wasn’t aware of that. I always thought that there were answers and that asking the questions would be a way of attaining them.

    This thread and the last have been such a sad awakening. And I DON’T say that as an attack, I say it with genuine sadness for all the information I thought was out there. and for the expectations that they were going to be shared, and for the knowledge I had expected to gain. and for the new understanding of how little us “outsiders” actually mean to you…..

    #1464555

    Toi
    Participant

    @5ish Poshut pshat in the Kav Hayashar would mean to install awe/pachad/yiras Hashem by imagining someone who’s a big oved Hashem, and chapping hispaylus from that thought. Not sure how this has anything to do with getting chiyus/lifeforce, or being reminded of how the rebbe is watching you, too. Did you miss that line? Once again, you pick a fragment of the argument. find a quasi-mekor to something much less bothersome, pretend like Chabad practice is nothing more, and try to make others look bad for having legitimate (and as-yet unanswered) ta’anos. How do you seriously farenfer the rebbe claiming to be watching you? And giving you chiyus? Looking forward to hearing an admission soon. But you won’t. You’ll just continue to fall back on the rebbe, and outlandish sichos. I’ll bring some more quotes, ones with people davening to him (or is it Him?) soon. There’s no way out of this buddy.

    #1464556

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    *unless one puts the being of the tzadik above / instead is Hahem, which is why we need to be careful not to have a picture in front of us while davening. Or if someone thinks the tzadik as a person is helping them, instead of thinking Hashem is working through the tzadik. Etc.

    #1464592

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @rso, @cs,
    Regarding picture at the bris:
    I did say that it’s conceivable that people do it, bit it’s not Minhag Chabad. CS, because “some lady” decided to put one under your son, means nothing. The fact that you didn’t know yourself about it, only proves that not everyone does it.

    @rso,
    Chabadpedia is some Meshichist site, has some good things, and a lot of nonsense. What the Rebbe did or didn’t tell someone in Yechidus, or even in a private letter, isn’t kovea Minhag Chabad. What I heard personally from one of the Gedolei Harabbanim in Lubavitch today is as follows:
    1. Minhag Chabad is based on Sefer HaMinhagim, written in the early years by the Rebbe.
    2. Any change to a Minhag, or creation of a Minhag, must have the following:
    A. It must be a clear instruction from the Rebbe applying to this specific issue, to everyone.
    B. It must be personally written by the Rebbe.
    C. A non mughe (non edited by the Rebbe, but someone’s transcript) sicha of the Rebbe isn’t strong enough to change or create a Minhag.
    D. If the Rebbe wanted us to do a certain thing, he would tell us clearly, not hint to it, or tell one individual.
    (Heard from Rav L. Schapiro, I don’t take responsibility for 100% accuracy).

    In general, Meshichistim and those so inclined, have more propensity for strange minhhagim with dubious sources, while “anti Meshichistim” try stick with what the Rebbe actually instructed us. A good case in point is Yom Tov Sheini for those visiting or learning in Chutz Laaretz or EY. (I won’t expound on this, if CS knows what I mean, good) Another, although not along the Meshichist – Non Meshichist divide, is the brocha on half hallel. (Again, CS, if you know what I’m referring to, good, if someone else wants to know, too bad)

    Interestingly, when I was shown different places the Rebbe spoke about the picture of the Frierdiker Rebbe, (in different Kovtzim, ) many of the ones that CS quoted weren’t there, like the ones from someone’s Yechidus. In general, if the source of something is “Bais Moshiach Magazine” I’ll take it with more than just a grain of salt.

    #1464597

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @Neville,
    “It seems like circular logic: “What’s a Chabad minhag that’s A”Z? The pillow picture. Why is it A”Z? Because it’s practiced by a people we suspect of avoida zara.”
    Very well said. What I was trying to express for a while. Even if it seems foreign and strange, it doesn’t make it A”Z.

    #1464623

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    A tzadik can’t be avoda zara

    Moshe Rabbeinu’s burial place is hidden so that he shouldn’t be made into an a”z.

    #1464631

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    unless one puts the being of the tzadik above / instead is Hahem, which is why we need to be careful not to have a picture in front of us while davening.

    But if you daven to the atzmus araingshtelt in a guf, why can’t you daven to the atzmus araingshtelt in a picture?

    #1464626

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m still waiting for SHY to explain the sichah about atzmus araingshtelt in a guf.

    #1464627

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    A good case in point is Yom Tov Sheini for those visiting or learning in Chutz Laaretz or EY. (I won’t expound on this, if CS knows what I mean, good) Another, although not along the Meshichist – Non Meshichist divide, is the brocha on half hallel. (Again, CS, if you know what I’m referring to, good, if someone else wants to know, too bad)

    Why so secretive?

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