@Chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

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  • #1465356

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “B) If not, what problem was the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s teirutz of “Atzmuso uMahuso etc.,” meant to answer? Either betten is not tefilah, therefore you can bett anything and there is no problem of avodah zara (maybe just tipshus) and his teirutz is unnecessary, or it is tefilah and his answer is explaining why while betten a normal person WOULD be avodah zara, betten a Tzadik is not.”

    In other words, it is not tefilla, but sounds like it. So what’s the difference? The difference is that when you ask the Rebbe you are asking Hahem to help through the tzadik as we Hashem and tzaddikim are one, as elucidated in perek beis Tanya and explained very well by SHY.

    “C) If you say that you cannot bett a normal person, but can bett a Tzadik, this is a tremendous chiddush.”

    Yes and no. I wouldn’t ask a normal person to help me like a tzadik because they can’t because Hahem doesn’t work through them because they aren’t completely batul to that level.

    No because there is no new practice being instituted here, rather am explanation of an old accepted minhag of davening by kivrei tzaddikim, even brought down in halacha. Before rosh hashana for example.

    #1465359

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @rso you misunderstood me. My point is that if cvs anyone of them thought the Rebbe was encouraging kefira cvs, they would definitely not visit them. So my point is no one should be questioning the Rebbe as no one can put themselves on the same level as any of them.

    #1465476

    Plainploni
    Participant

    @bubbyo

    Great, now for step two. Since betten does not mean tefila, then what was the problem the Lubavitcher Rebbe was trying to answer by saying his father-in-law was “Atzmuso uMahuso araingeshtelt in a guf?” (From the context this is clearly particular to him or Tzadikim generally not all Jews, so don’t say he was referring to the fact that every Jew has a chelek eloka mimaal.)

    #1465482

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    SHY,

    Nowhere did I imply that Moshe Rabbeinu was the Aibershter. Chas vesholom.

    You used the phrase, “Moshe isn’t an entity separate from Hashem, rather, he is nullified before Hashem.”

    No, I’m not accusing you of believing that Moshe Rabbeinu or the Rebbe are Hashem, ch”v. But can’t you see how use of such terminology (which seems much too common) can (and has) lead to belief in shituf?

    #1465503

    Plainploni
    Participant

    @bubbyo @chabadshlucha

    I’m fine with your answer that in the Sicha he was explaining why betten a Rebbe is effective, not why it is permissible. As long as you are aware of how easily misunderstood that Sicha can be, and make sure others inside your movement (especially new BTs) don’t take it the wrong way.

    #1465504

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Since betten does not mean tefila, then what was the problem the Lubavitcher Rebbe was trying to answer by saying his father-in-law was “Atzmuso uMahuso araingeshtelt in a guf?” (From the context this is clearly particular to him or Tzadikim generally not all Jews, so don’t say he was referring to the fact that every Jew has a chelek eloka mimaal.)

    I was going to ask the same question to Chabadshluchah. I’ll add that in the footnote, the Rebbe addresses the strenuous objection to his admittedly innovative “hergesh”, and ignores the plain meaning of the Yerushalmi to bring a “source” to it.

    He should have simply said they misunderstood him, it’s not a chiddush, it’s accepted in every circle to ask a tzaddik to daven for us, and sourced explicit Chazal saying this.

    #1465532

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “Great, now for step two. Since betten does not mean tefila, then what was the problem the Lubavitcher Rebbe was trying to answer by saying his father-in-law was “Atzmuso uMahuso araingeshtelt in a guf?” (From the context this is clearly particular to him or Tzadikim generally not all Jews, so don’t say he was referring to the fact that every Jew has a chelek eloka mimaal.)”

    Exactly our point there is no problem. Except when people like toi twist it out of context to make it into one which no lubavitcher has done because we all understand it like Tanya etc

    Exactly again! Every yid is atzmus umehus araingeshtelt in a guf at their core, but they don’t express it all the time becuse their yetzer hara and nefesh habehamis get in the way with other agendas. A tzadik though lives this reality so he is atzmus umehus araingeshtelt in a guf in a revealed way, because he is practically batul not just potentially.

    #1465535

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    BTW I learned this sicha in my own time in high school and never took it in this perverted way of cvs seeing it until this very thread. Has been an eye opener for me to be careful when talking to non lubavitchers who don’t learn Tanya as they can get things completely upside down.

    #1465538

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “He should have simply said they misunderstood him, it’s not a chiddush, it’s accepted in every circle to ask a tzaddik to daven for us, and sourced explicit Chazal saying this.”

    Youre misunderstanding. The chiddush is WHY its OK. Not the fact that it is OK. Chassidus goes into the Why. That’s why it’s part of pnimius HaTorah

    #1465551

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “To outsiders this tendency feels like a rejection of fundamental ideals in the Gemara such as Lo BaShomayim Hi, or that Nevua has ended, etc. For everyone else, unless you are a Navi you need to explain yourself, make your case no matter how great a Tzadik or Talmud Chocham you are”

    I don’t get what a Rebbe has to do with lo bashomayim as he is a physical person. For the record there is a sicha addressing the point you bring about nevuah, although the place isn’t here to address it as this thread is already too flying.

    #1465552

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Sorry use I misunderstood ploni. The problem he was addressing is WHY is it OK to ask a tzadik to help you out like people do when they ask Rebbeim for brachos. Or daven BY (not to) the kever. Halacha says it’s fine, he’s addressing the Hashkofa of why

    #1465557

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Youre misunderstanding. The chiddush is WHY its OK. Not the fact that it is OK. Chassidus goes into the Why.

    If the question was why, the “baalei nigleh” he refers to would not be complaining “b’raash gadol”.

    You are creating context here which doesn’t fit what he is clearly addressing.

    #1465565

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    As far as why other tzaddikim disagreed, each tzadik’s source in the sefiros direct the way he serves Hashem. Fire example, Avraham Avinu personified chessed of atzilus, while Yitzchak did gevurah.

    So tzaddikim can disagree because their neshama and Avodas Hashem can be rooted in different sefiros

    There are twelve shvatim not just one. Ailu vailu divrei Elokim chaim.

    #1465569

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “the “baalei nigleh” he refers to would not be complaining “b’raash gadol”.

    Well just look at this thread. If you don’t learn Tanya I guess got don’t get it. If it was so simple, there would be no thread.

    #1465562

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “1. Your understanding of what a Tzadik is, as is stated in the Tanya is not a belief shared by any other contemporary frum Jews. This includes other Chasidim. I saw a few posters makes statements to the effect that other Chasidim have a more extreme view of the nature of a Tzadik. This is false. Maybe it was true in the past, but it certainly isn’t now (personally I think this was never the case).”

    I encountered something along these lines when I was in eighth grade. I was a counselor together with anther girl who was the granddaughter of a Rebbe in EY. She was boasting to me how her grandfather the Rebbe had a fancy car and house.

    To me that sounded very foreign and not like “Rebbe” material so I asked her puzzled, “why would a review care about a fancy house and car?”

    She answred “everyone has a different yetzer hara. Some like kovod, others like fancy stuff.”

    Now I was even more confused. “Wait isn’t the Rebbe a tzadik who doesn’t have a yetzer hara?”

    She answred “it used to be like that, but now there’s been yeridas Hadoros…”

    At that point I understood that when I say tzadik or Rebbe, and someone else does, were not speaking the same language.

    But other chassidim get the concept, because before the holocaust they also had their fair share of tzaddikim like the Tanya.

    In the litvishe world, I’ve heard that the Rebbe said R Yisrael Salanter was a tzadik of the Tanya.

    #1465585

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @mods if you don’t like that one, I understand, no need to post. Just trying to answer questions.

    #1465591

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @DaasYochid,
    “No, I’m not accusing you of believing that Moshe Rabbeinu or the Rebbe are Hashem, ch”v. But can’t you see how use of such terminology (which seems much too common) can (and has) lead to belief in shituf?”

    Which is why it’s important to learn Chassidus. I think you’d be hard pressed to find a Lubavitcher who has heard these concepts, but doesn’t know the background to them in Chassidus. Yes, there are fresh baalei Tshuva who do and say silly things, but that’s not limited to this field.

    I myself, learned these ideas in Chassidus about Bittul, way before I learned this sicha.

    #1465593

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    Here’s the Tshuva I quoted.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  Y.W. Editor.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  Sechel HaYashar.
    #1465597

    Chasid Ben Torah
    Participant

    I have just been shown this thread by someone and I have 2 comments. a) When one does not understand a strange expression of a renowned Tzadik/Rebbe/Gadol one would not expect to find the the correct explanation on a web site. One would do far better getting in touch with the Mashpiim of Chabad in their Yeshivos.
    b) Here are two loshonos which are equal if not stronger than what the Rebbe ZY”A said.
    כי רועה ישראל חשוב כאלוקים ממש כי יושב על כסא ”
    השם בארץ … והיינו כיון שהגון חשוב כאלוקות

    ההשפעה הבאה מרוח קדשו של צדיק הדור אשר השכינה שורה בתוכו וממנו יומשך קדושה ”
    “לכל דורו והוא מעונו של הקב”ה ששוכן בקרבו

    Both of these quotes are from the Heilige Chasam Sofer (al Hatorah). The first is from Parshas Matos on the Posuk VaYimosru MeAlfei Yisroel the second is from Parshas Ki Tovo on the Posuk Hashkifah MiMeon Kodshecha. (Whis as he says there refers to the Tzadik Hador who is the Maon Kodhso of HKB”H)

    There is a modern sefer which discusses this topic at length I think it is called Al HaTzadikim by Rabbi Pevzner. He does not quote the above from the Chasam Sofer but he has collected similar statements. I heard that actually the Rebbe ZY”A himself was not happy this was printed because he realized that it would be misunderstood.

    I am over 60 Baruch Hashem, and I have had the zechus to deal with both as a mechanech and a Rav many, many Chabad talmidim and talmidos. I have yet to meet anyone who davenns ch”v to the Rebbe as in Brochos, Shmoneh Esrei, etc. I personally advise all going to the Ohel (or any kivrei Tzadikim for that matter) to use the traditional Maaneh Loshon to avoid any possibility of the wrong intention.

    I realize that this does not actually explain either the Rebbe ZY”A or the Chasam Sofer, but that is not a topic to be discussed on the “al regel Achas” of a web site. Please understand that just because this type of expression is not familiar to you from your MESORAH it does not mean it is not valid.

    #1465675

    RSo
    Participant

    “It does not seem to have been rejected. Maybe your internet connection was interrupted.”

    Thanks Mods. Quite possible.

    #1465732

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    ” Please understand that just because this type of expression is not familiar to you from your MESORAH it does not mean it is not valid.”

    So, in what mesorah is this stuff OK? Sphard? Teimani? Ashkenaz?

    Do you get the crux of the argument here? Chabad is an invented mesoret. Lubavitchers all have ancestors that were Ashkenazim or Sphardim, etc. If we accept your principle, what’s to stop me from making up “Minhag Neville” that says it’s OK to worship me as a god? How are you going to argue with me? It’s my minhag! It goes all the way back to the beginning of the Neville movement!

    One reason Chabad catches all of this flak vs. other Chassidim is that your chiddushim seem to have no basis in earlier generations (davening late, eating before davening, treating your rabbi as a demi-god, calling all other yidden haters, etc).

    #1465984

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “I encountered something along these lines when I was in eighth grade. I was a counselor together with anther girl who was the granddaughter of a Rebbe in EY. She was boasting to me how her grandfather the Rebbe had a fancy car and house.

    She answered “it used to be like that, but now there’s been yeridas Hadoros…”

    At that point I understood that when I say tzadik or Rebbe, and someone else does, were not speaking the same language.”

    Sad story, but your conclusion is quite radical. There have always been charlatans and semi-charlatans. To decide because of one incident that you are speaking a different language to the rest of the world is ludicrous.

    I have written in the past that I travel extensively, well a lot of that travel is to E”Y and there I have come in contact with many chassidic (non-chassidic too, but that’s not relevant here) groups and even a number of rebbes. Some, in my humble (!) opinion seem to be into it for the money/kovod/numbers, but there are others who are as far away from that as I am from becoming a rebbe.

    Don’t fall into the trap of assuming that you are better because of the occasional statement or action of someone who is not as cluey or straight as you. It’s a well-known trick of the yetzer horo.

    #1465986

    RSo
    Participant

    I apologize if what I am about to write is obvious to many but I don’t believe that it is, and I am almost certain that it is not clear to the lubavitch posters.

    We all know that it is very unlikely that a poster who has a particular viewpoint will be “turned around” by anything we write, regardless of which side of the argument we are coming from. True, people who don’t know any better or have unwittingly fallen for hype may be influenced one way or the other, but there aren’t too many of those among us.

    That having been said, however, there is a major mission that those of us who have been critical of lubavitch practices etc are attempting to achieve in regards to the understanding of the lubavitch posters. We are trying to convey how you have not convinced us that we can accept YOU having these beliefs.

    I am not a Satmar chossid and I (based on those I rely on for Torah and hashkofo) don’t agree with a majority of their views. But I can accept that they hold those views because they follow their rebbe’s view and I admit that his views are not antithetical to Torah. They are incorrect, in my “group’s” opinion, but they are not wrong. (And if you’re going to ask, “Who cares what you think? Since when are you a rebbe?” The answer is, “I care what I think because in the end I have to decide what to accept and what not to accept.” It is always up to the individual to decide what and in whom to believe. You lubavitch chassidim have also decided that you believe in your rebbe. No one can decide that for you.)

    On the other hand we, apparently quite a number of us, believe that practices and views discussed here – e.g. nossi hador, dor shvi’i, atzmus melubash beguf, pictures used at a bris etc. – are not only wrong, but that they are antithetical to the Torah, and we just won’t accept that you have some higher or better or even lesser view that we have to accept as being your right. In other words, we don’t think YOU have the right to believe them.

    Therefore, by telling us that the Lubavitcher rebbe said such-and-such doesn’t solve anything, as that is the source of the problem.

    I’m not trying to offend anyone, and if I did it was just because I wanted to clarify what they don’t seem to get.

    Did I get the feeling of many posters right?

    #1465994

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Well just look at this thread. If you don’t learn Tanya I guess got don’t get it. If it was so simple, there would be no thread.

    That sichah is clearly not addressing what you think we don’t get.

    #1466017

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    I’m not going to bother anymore. Obviously, many of you didn’t bother reading that long post I put up, or if you did, you clearly didn’t get anything I said.
    If our own Lubavitcher sources (Tanya for one) aren’t enough, I’ve quoted a Tshuvos Mahram Shick and given the Mare Mokom.
    Somebody else quoted a very “problematic” Chasam Sofer, (as some of you would call it) but that’s also not good enough. In the end of the day, no matter what explanations and Mare Mekomos we’ll give you, you will still hate us. That is a fact becoming more and more apparent on these threads. If anyone here seriously wants to know about what we believe and why, go to your local Chabad Yeshiva and find out. If you are in Lakewood, there’s a local Lubavitcher who’s a legendary Talmid Chochom, I’m sure you can speak with him. His name is HaRav Nochum Greenwald.
    Alternatively, you can come visit Yeshivas Tomchei Tmimim – Morristown NJ, “Rabbinical College of America”.

    I’ll summarize here one last time what I do and don’t believe:
    1. There’s only one Aibershter, and it’s not the Rebbe Zy”a.
    (I feel quite stupid typing this even, but some of you need to be sure I don’t believe that)
    2. The Rebbe passed away on the 3rd of Tammuz 5754.
    3. Just as Chassidim asked him for brochos during his life, we continue to do so after his passing by going to his Tziyun in Queens NY.
    4. In my opinion, the Rebbe being Moshiach or not is a total non issue.
    5. We believe that every generation has it’s leader, the “Ispashtusa Dmoshe shebchol Dara vedara. (Zohar).
    6. We believe every Yid to be a Chelek Eloka MiMaal Mamosh. Given that, the Neshama Klolis of that generation has that expressed by him in a much more revealed way. Hence, “Atzmus Umehus in a guf. That applies to us too, there’s Atzmus Umehus in my guf too.
    7. Debating what we believe on the Coffee Room is not a conducive way to understanding anything.
    8. If you washed away the old hate some of you have for us, you’d see that much of your opposition isn’t based on Yiras Shomayim and Shulchan Aruch, but merely plain old hate.

    #1466124

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @neville

    You actually have impressed me with this discussion so I’m gonna take you seriously and respond.

    “So, in what mesorah is this stuff OK? Sphard? Teimani? Ashkenaz?”

    All the above. Someone mentioned similar stuff by the baba sali, and there were two litvishe sources quoted that area saying the same idea.

    “Do you get the crux of the argument here? Chabad is an invented mesoret. Lubavitchers all have ancestors that were Ashkenazim or Sphardim, etc. If we accept your principle, what’s to stop me from making up “Minhag Neville” that says it’s OK to worship me as a god? How are you going to argue with me? It’s my minhag! It goes all the way back to the beginning of the Neville movement!”

    Im sorry you feel that way. First of all the Rebbeim never declared anything about themselves but about a previous Rebbe.

    Second of all in order to establish Minhag Neville, you would have to be accepted by existing gedolim as a real gadol, and be chosen by chassidim as their Rebbe. In lubavitch specifically, our Rebbeim were chosen by chassidim only, sometimes against the wishes of the family members. Our Rebbeim often fought against becoming Rebbe and weren’t seeking to establish their nesius at all.

    The lubavitch movement btw goes back to the Alter Rebbe who was accepted as a Gaon beyond. He wrote the shulchan aruch HaRav. Many of the Geonim who had fought him bitterly, become his chassidim.

    This post read as absurd to me but I took the time to respond seriously because it looks like you are sincere.

    #1466153

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @rso

    The way I and any other lubavitcher would understand your post is as follows:

    You should reconsider accepting what a tzadik gamur says because a bunch of reshaim vtov lahem (again Tanya definitions here, I would be in the same category) have difficulty with what he says.

    Hmm the polite response would be “bmakom gedolim al taamod”

    #1466147

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “Sad story, but your conclusion is quite radical. There have always been charlatans and semi-charlatans. To decide because of one incident that you are speaking a different language to the rest of the world is ludicrous.”

    You’re right if it was one incident. That was just the first. Btew I never said he only cared about that, just that his granddaughter said it mattered to him.

    I could give you other examples if you want but I don’t think anyone wants that.

    In fact the post I was responding to was expressing the same notion: no one else today, aside from us, considers their Rebbe to be a tzadik of Tanya. My point in the story was that the girl herself admitted it used to be that way by them to, just there’s been yeridas Hadoros.

    In fact its been reiterated by the reactiond on this thread over and over. The fact that toi went crazy when I said that in no closer to becoming the Rebbe than becoming a malach proves he hasn’t seen a tzadik at this level before or he wouldn’t make a fuss.

    The fact that when I described some of the things the Rebbe was able to do in a regular basis, someone responded that magic doesn’t prove anything shows me that unfortunately for this fellow, being able to accomplish things above nature he only associates with the power of klipa not kedusha.

    Etc etc etc

    Now just to make it clear, I would never come on this forum and start a thread on who is the Nasi hador etc etc. That woukd be heipech everything Chassidus stands for. But sometimes, I feel the concept has to be brought in because it is the answer to people who are puzzled why we treat our Rebbe differently than everyone else.

    They’re thinking we took a regular special person and elevated him to the level of a malach in our own heads. When in reality, anyone who came in contact with the Rebbe can tell you that they experienced revealed Elokus, just like you would with a malach.

    #1466149

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    minor correction : you can leave the concept of Nossi hador out of this one. Just addressing the definition of tzadik. There can be a few Tzaddikim per generation or maybe more than a few tzadik vra los- who have a drugged yetzer hara

    #1466185

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Sechel I don’t think people hate us. I think they just had a different reality than we did about tzaddikim etc . That’s why I’m trying to clear it up

    #1466193

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Finally @DY you have proven yourself to be a worthy dialogue partner. So please, now that you read and understood all the posts, especially SHY long one and my hashkafa one, go back, read the sicha, and you’ll see there is no issue.

    If there are any further questions from you I’ll be happy to hear and address

    #1466211

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    PSA: Long posts are less likely to get read.

    #1466215

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t have further questions, but the questions on the table haven’t really been answered.

    The “betten the Rebbe” has been explained as not davening to the Rebbe, but it hasn’t been answered why he needed to say the chiddush of atzmus araingshtelt in a guf, since anyone can daven on behalf of anyone else, and nobody ever questions that fact, or even why (at least not “b’raash gadol”[although perhaps the rash gadol was only on the answer]). The fact that we are all one is enough to explain why we can daven for each other, and the whole Rebbe/tzaddik thing doesn’t need to be brought in, unless there’s something more going on.

    I also don’t recall anyone answering how the Rebbe called the Frierdike Rebbe a kol yachol.

    I may have missed a couple of posts, so please link or quote if these were in fact answered.

    #1466240

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    DY in Chassidus we question why things are the way they are all the time. And since asking “Rebbe help me with…” Can sound like the same idea as davening, because only Hashem provides us with our needs, why is it OK to ask a tzadik to daven for you or even to help you, as yidden do? That’s what the answer is addressing.

    As far as kol yachol, if you look it says yachol hakol, not kol yachol. Yachol hakol means the Rebbe can do anything. Which is true. A tzadik, by connecting himself to the power of Hashem, is not limited by nature, and can do the impossible.

    I personally know a woman who the doctors said can’t have any children. Physically. She got a Bracha from the Rebbe and had 15.

    #1466255

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @rebyidd23,
    “PSA: Long posts are less likely to get read.”
    I realize that, which is why I explicitly said that in order for me to properly explain anything, it will be necessary.
    One who truly desires to understand, will actually read it.

    @cs,

    Sechel I don’t think people hate us. I think they just had a different reality than we did about tzaddikim etc . That’s why I’m trying to clear it up”

    I hate to break it to you, but it will never be cleared up here. Because many here don’t actually care to listen.
    As you pointed out, Daas Yochid seems like one of the more intellectually honest ones here.
    Neville can be here and there.
    And RSO gets the “hater of the year” award, for consistently spewing venomous hate filled rhetoric.
    Litvishe Chossid would come in second place, but he wasn’t really around enough.

    Have a Lichtige Shabbos everyone, and ah gutten chodesh!
    ויקוים בנו היעוד “חברים כל ישראל” ונאמר אמן

    #1466256

    Bubbyo
    Participant

    The “betten the Rebbe” has been explained as not davening to the Rebbe.
    Was it?
    Some seem to have misunderstood my post as explaining that concept for Chabbad. However, since I am as Litvish (misnadish, if you want) as they come, I cannot say that on Chabad’s behalf.
    I would like to believe that that is their viewpoint, but too often when they say that betten is not davening, it is implying that davening is only formal Tefila. No one dreams that Lubavichers have anyone besides Hashem in mind when they daven the Amida, say shema or make brachos. The definition of Betten is requesting. The issue that I haven’t seen cleared up is the kind of dialogue that we have with the RBS”O throughout the day, “Hashem, please help me with whatever issue I’m dealing with’, or ‘Hashem, give me clarity please’, etc.” Those kinds of informal tefilos may also not be addressed to anyone other than the RBS”O, at least for those who consider themselves part of Torah Judaism as codified by the Rambam.
    If this too, is discouraged/ forbidden by Chabad ideology, and requests are addressed and directed straight to Hashem in the zchus of their Rebbe, I will be very happy and relieved to hear that. Not my derech (the original one) as a Litvack, but a legitimate one.
    As to what the all the sources about what a tsaddik is/ is not, I leave that to the Talmidei Chachomim, the lomdei Torah of both sides to explain what they all mean without contradicting one (or three) of the 13 Ikrim. It seems to me that PP, SHY and others have made some progress on that. If it is emes there will be no contradiction, if there is a contradiction then the understanding of it is not emes
    And CS, I feel sorry that you have not had the zechus of meeting true tzadikim in your life time as I have. We have lost many r”l, but there are tzadikim even to this day. Lo almon Yisrael. Search them out. You’ll be glad that you did.

    #1466274

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Better yet, since the Rebbe was referring to the Frierdiker Rebbe after his histalkus, I’ll give you a story I just heard today :

    A lubavitcher chossid had to buy gf stuff for his wife. So he went to a gf store in boro park where the cashier told him this story :

    Rabbi katz in BP (There are three) Once wrote to the Rebbe and never got an answer. After gimmel tammuz he got a call that a letter had been found for him from years before.

    In it, the Rebbe answered his question from years before, plus wished him a refuah sheleima. There were seven dollars enclosed for each of his children.

    The thing is he had gotten sick after gimmel tammuz, and he had seven kids when he got the letter but only five when he wrote it!

    This is what it means the Rebbe is able to do anything.

    Normally people are limited by nature. Tzaddikim aren’t m

    #1466280

    DovidBT
    Participant

    @sechel HaYashar

    I’ll summarize here one last time what I do and don’t believe:
    1. … 8.

    Thanks for the clear summary. I’ll assume that’s the mainstream Chabad belief, unless someone posts otherwise.

    #1466296

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And since asking “Rebbe help me with…” Can sound like the same idea as davening,

    Well, yes it does, and an answer that he’s atzmus araingshtelt in a guf doesn’t do anything to dispel that. I thought you were claiming that betten isn’t davening, but I think you just backtracked from that.

    As far as kol yachol, if you look it says yachol hakol, not kol yachol.

    Yes, and ba’al habayis al hakol. That’s not the same as saying someone is a ba’al mofes. I don’t see how saying someone can do anything isn’t total a”z. Even if you make a slight grammatical change.

    #1466312

    slabodka
    Participant

    @cs

    “The fact that when I described some of the things the Rebbe was able to do in a regular basis, someone responded that magic doesn’t prove anything shows me that unfortunately for this fellow, being able to accomplish things above nature he only associates with the power of klipa not kedusha.”

    I am “this fellow.” And I stand by what I said. There are stories told about the founder of a different religion and the miracles he performed (and no, I am not comparing that religion and Chabad, so please don’t accuse me of being a hater.) Whether it is klipa or kedusha-doesn’t really matter. What matters is whether the “magician” is a true representative of Hashem and His Torah. The Torah specifically says not to be swayed by miracle workers. And even a broken clock is correct twice a day. I am quite certain there are certain stories of where the rebbe gave a brocha and it wasn’t mekuyam (as is the case by many gedolim/rebbeim). So, I and others will continue not to be impressed by miracles stories. It is a nice bonus if everything else makes sense but it isn’t enough of a merit on it’s own to convince people that the rebbe was the “Nasi Hador” more than any other gadol or tzaddik. Are you even familiar with any other tzaddikim? Everyone else in klal Yisroel believes there rebbe or manhig is “the man,” but they believe there is a number 2, 3 etc. Who else does Chabad believe to be tzaddikim (even in the non Tanya sense) ?

    Unrelated, but I think that you and SY have given a dochek answer to our question of Atzmus Umahus. If you say that everyone has it and it’s just that the rebbe has it in a more practical sense because he has reached the level of a tzaddik acording to Tanya, then the rebbe should have made that clear in a Sicha. but even if your explanation is correct, how do you explain why there is no new rebbe today? Was the heintege rebbe more kadosh than the frierdiker rebbe?

    #1466336

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    Sechel hayashar- if we count all your posts which were deleted, not published, and warnings you received from the mods, I’d say you beat us all with the hatred spreading. But obviously there’s always someone else to blame for your actions. Much easier that way.

    I do not recall any of Seichel Hayashar’s posts needing to be deleted due to harshness, and if there were some, they would certainly seem to be fewer than yours. -100

    #1466367

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    -100 mod you are not the only moderator here and I’m not only discussing this thread. You must be one of the chabad biased mods that was filling in. Besides, none of my posts here were deleted and in fact like sechel said, I didn’t post so much to begin with. I stopped once the thread was looping around itself like a ferris wheel. But good attempt at trying to make me look bad mod-100. It seems you weren’t around this thread enough to even keep track of my postings.

    Now let’s see if you have the courage to let this post go through.

    #1466369

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    In addition noone said anything about harshness. The word of the day was “hatred”. And no, I did not spread any hatred no matter how much the factual truth hurt. I actually dared sechel to point out even one thing in any of my posts that wasn’t true. I am still waiting. And I have sources for all and obviously links weren’t allowed to col website or others which I tried posting as proof. On the other hand I have been able to point out and have others agree with me or write very similar things sometimes even harsher than mine, so that must count for something doesn’t it mod -100?

    #1466371

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    CS, thanks your replying respectfully.
    ““So, in what mesorah is this stuff OK? Sphard? Teimani? Ashkenaz?”

    All the above. Someone mentioned similar stuff by the baba sali, and there were two litvishe sources quoted that area saying the same idea.”

    With all due respect, this is just completely false. Minhag Sphard is even stricter on davening late, and I understand they wouldn’t even respond “amein” to a late krias hashatz. The Chofetz Chaim says not eating before Shachris is even more important than davening with a minyan. Maybe, my post was a little out of order. If you thought I was referring to davening at a tzaddik’s grave and the bris picture, then yeah, those aren’t really difficulties for me. I think there are way bigger problems to be concerned with.

    If all of your minhagim were sourced in the Shulchan Aruch HaRav, then I think your argument would carry more weight, but that’s not the reality. The S”A HaRav speaks of zman hatefillah (seems to hold like the Magen Avraham, btw), never says it’s OK to eat before davening (to my knowledge), says that you should eat a seudah shlishis, even says you should wrap tefillin on chol hamoed! The point is, very little of modern day Lubavitch goes back to the Alter Rebbe, whom we all respect as a great posek.

    By the way, I am aware that when there’s a difference between the Shulchan Aruch HaRav, and the Baal HaTanya’s siddur, Chabad paskens like the siddur. That I would be legitimately interested in talking about (not fighting about), but not on this thread.

    #1466374

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    @The Mods:

    I do think you guys do a great job. However, with all due respect, Sechel HaYashar once called Daas Yochid a “fine specimen of a misnagged” on a different thread, which was let through. Just because he’s on the defensive side here and actually bringing sources, doesn’t mean he’s always that way, so I have to sympathize with LC.

    I know LC and I are pretty extreme when it comes to this subject too; moderation isn’t just to protect the victim. The universal truth of any forum is: when you look back on your posts 5 years from now, you’ll wish the mods blocked you MORE, not less.

    #1466376

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @litvishechossid,
    “I do not recall any of Seichel Hayashar’s posts needing to be deleted due to harshness, and if there were some, they would certainly seem to be fewer than yours. -100”

    Couldn’t have said it better myself.
    A little bit of sarcasm and poetic license, isn’t really all that harsh. I can only speak for myself, I do not hate people who aren’t Chabad (majority of the Jewish world) because they aren’t Chabad. שבעים פנים לתורה.
    But I expect them to give the same respect I have for their Derech, to mine.
    Calling our Derech “Avoda Zara” and “Not legitimate” doesn’t increase the love I have for you, as my fellow Yid.

    This week is Shabbos Mevorchim Adar, why don’t we all put a little emphasis on חברים כל ישראל, and try actualize it בפועל ממש.

    #1466396

    Toi
    Participant

    @CS- I never said that, go back and check. as @DaasYochid pointed out, you haven’t really answered anything here.

    @DY- I think you’re wasting your time-the defenders of the faith here are really only reinforcing what I think we all already knew, however politely you want to say it, their posts continue to confirm that they believe a man, dead at that, is simply more, blame it on his own words, expect us to swallow sichas whole, etc. No point.
    @CS- If for nothing else, because answers certainly have not been forthcoming, thanks for clarifying my doubts; it’s not the moshiach monkey business that’s the issue, it’s the whole movement.

    #1466408

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @slobodka no disrespect meant, just didn’t remember and didn’t have time to look up which fellow said what.

    That being said, what you say it correct but irrelevant.

    As I have stated I think by now numerous times, these comments of the Rebbe were made before he became Rebbe and were taken in the proper context by the people who heard because they chose him as Rebbe within the year.

    After the Rebbe became Rebbe, many gedolim visited and praised him, so they obviously weren’t choshed him on anything resembling kefira cvs.

    If you have seen real tzaddikim, then I would expect your response to my description of what the Rebbe was able to do to be, yeah I’ve seen that by my Rebbe too. Then I would say, great were on the same page so you can understand why being by the Rebbe is like being by a malach.

    your response about magic led me to understand that you haven’t seen such things by a Rebbe before.

    #1466409

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Cont’ @ slobodka

    “Are you even familiar with any other tzaddikim? Everyone else in klal Yisroel believes there rebbe or manhig is “the man,” but they believe there is a number 2, 3 etc. Who else does Chabad believe to be tzaddikim (even in the non Tanya sense) ?”

    I’ve definitely heard of other leaders in am Yisrael, not familiar enough though to know if there is anyone else today who is a tzadik gamur of the Tanya. It also doesn’t help that whenever I meet someone not lubavitch, they don’t think so either of their Rebbe. I’ll be very happy to hear of more today. Not really fun being unique as the more tzaddikim the better.

    “Unrelated, but I think that you and SY have given a dochek answer to our question of Atzmus Umahus. If you say that everyone has it and it’s just that the rebbe has it in a more practical sense because he has reached the level of a tzaddik acording to Tanya, then the rebbe should have made that clear in a Sicha.”

    Important point. That sicha was never edited by the Rebbe. It’s an unedited draft of one of the farbrengen attendees. The Rebbe probably would have clarified and expounded if he would have edited it. As is, its just the unedited transcription of a talk, and the Rebbe was speaking to his audience who understood like we chassidim do.

    “but even if your explanation is correct, how do you explain why there is no new rebbe today? Was the heintege rebbe more kadosh than the frierdiker rebbe?”

    What does this have to do with the discussion? Separate question. Let’s finish this topic off first before jumping into another. You’re welcome to ask after we finish this one, or on a new thread (if you’re not sick of discussing lubavitch yet lol.)

    #1466411

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Correction on the story of Rabbi katz. He only had 1-2 kids wren he originally wrote in. And he is he eidim of the Toldos Aharon Rebbe.

    @bubbyo @DY I understand your concerns. Now we’ve clarified that
    a) we only daven to Hashem

    Now you’ve got to where the Rebbe had made his chiddush. Many chassidim, not just Chabad will address requests to the Rebbe as well. The Rebbe was answering why that’s OK

    Maybe by you, you don’t do it and by your Rabbanim its not ok. (Although it seemed you’ve heard of the concept of asking brachos before.) (Maybe it’s not ok by then because they’re not talking about a tzadik gamur of Tanya, someone that is 100% batul to Hashem and doesn’t even feel like doing anything else than what Hashem wants? In which case there would be no contradiction.)

    But I know this is an accepted practice by chassidim, not just lubavitch. And the Rebbe was explaining why. Because when chassidim ask the Rebbe, they’re really asking Hashem Who is revealed in the tzadik. Just like by Moshe rabbeinu.

    Curious to see what sechel says.

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