@Chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

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  • #1466412

    RSo
    Participant

    SHY: “And RSO gets the “hater of the year” award, for consistently spewing venomous hate filled rhetoric.”

    Are you sure I don’t come in second to you:

    “Oh right, I forgot that you are the ones who calls the shots on all A”Z and Apikorsus related issues. I think I saw your sefer in the Seforim store last week, the one called “הבנת הכסיל” with the attached Kuntres “היפוכם בגולם”.”
    ?

    #1466413

    RSo
    Participant

    This is addressed mainly to CS because I think she has a warped view of other chassidim, but it’s probably important for other lubavitch posters (who, according to SHY, I clearly hate):

    I am not a litvishe by any stretch of the imagination, but I’d rather not talk about myself and my relationship with my Rebbe. Instead I’d rather talk about the relationship of some of my closest relatives and friends with whom I interact 365 days a (non-leap) year, and with whom I discuss many many deep topics to do with Torah and hashkofoh.

    A typical exampls is, let’s call him Feivel, who is a staunch chossid of the Ploni Rebbe – no reason to mention any group in particular, and Feivel’s views are typical of his co-chassidim. I know this for a fact.

    Feivel accepts every single utterance his rebbe makes as Heaven-sent and 100% correct, even if other non Ploni-chassidim may not think so. He follows what his rebbe says (as much as his yetzer horo lets him, so to speak) and he believes that his rebbe is a tzaddik gomur of Tanya. (Other chassidim, it may or may not surprise you, have also learnt Tanya, although they don’t exclusively base their views on that sefer.)

    And, very importantly, his rebbe has NEVER made outlandish statements about HIS role in Hashem’s plan. The important thing in all of his rebbe’s torah is ALWAYS what Hashem wants and accepting it. He has NEVER demanded anything of Hashem – on the contrary, he ALWAYS wants to know what Hashem wants and to do just that. He has NEVER called himself a nossi – in all likelihood he has never even called himself a manhig – and he has NEVER had to justify a “remarkable” statement like being aztmus melubash etc.

    I have asked Feivel if he believes his rebbe is Moshiach, and he replied that he certainly believes that his rebbe is a great enough tzaddik to be Moshiach, but that he doesn’t care if he is or isn’t because that is Hashem’s business, not his.

    So I think we can surmise from the above, and it’s all 100% true, that Feivel is as strong a chossid of the Ploni Rebbe as anyone in Lubavitch is of the Lubavitch rebbe. And as I have mentioned, Feivel is typical of his group of friends.

    A few days ago, in light of the thread we are on, I asked him what would happen if his Rebbe said that was atzmus melubash etc. or that his predecessor was yachol hakol, or that he “runs the world” (to quote Cunin). He replied that the first thing he would do is to make 100% sure that his rebbe actually said it. But that if he did he would be forced to leave him because that is pure “meshigass and even worse” (his terminology).

    If you should venture to ask: how can a person just leave his rebbe because of something the rebbe says? The answer is that there are limits, and certain things surpass those limits.

    Hashgocho protis is a wonderful thing, isn’t it? Just Friday a large choshuve group of Breslav rabbonim, including such great chassidim as Rev Yaacov Meir Shechter, came out with an issur against Berland after investigating his actions. What is a chossid of Berland to do? Should he just say, “They are wrong”? I don’t believe so. There comes a time when you have to say that something is improper and I had better leave this group and some of it’s weird ways.

    #1466416

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    OK now that I understand what the issue you have with it is, allow me to explain:

    1) In light of achdus Hashem, as I explained above based on Tanya, you should be able to understand. When we ask the Rebbe for help, were not asking him as a human. That would be wrong as we only ask Hashem for things like the Rambam says. Were asking Hashem, through his human messenger, so it’s more personal. Like the medrash tehillim brought above. Half Elokim, half ish.

    An example of this is the urim vtumim.why is that not az cvs? Because it’s completely batul to Hashem. So no one was asking gems for help. They were asking Hashem, to answer a personal answer through the gems.

    2) even if you have difficulty accepting this, or your circles don’t behave this way, that still doesn’t mean its not legitimate way in Avodas Hashem, as a stated above, the Rebbe was accepted by many gedolim as a tzadik gamur. A revelation of Hashem in this world. I think moshiach chat posted some quotes of other gedolim about the Rebbe in the other thread.

    Besides that, we chassidim saw throughout the Rebbe’s whole life how everything he wanted was what Hashem wanted. Not to mention thought speech and action. So anything the Rebbe says to us is correct, no questions asked.

    3) The Rebbe would bring sources for everything he said, here included. Now that doesn’t mean there is no chiddush, there is, but there is still a source for this idea before in Torah. And we’ve also brought others in this thread.

    4) another example: do you have an issue with moshiach ruling the world? I guess if you don’t learn the Tanyas concept of achdus Hashem, it might be weird for you that a person will be king when Hashem is revealed in full glory. Why not Hashem? Isn’t that strange? But the whole point of Geula, which is what we’ve been working towards all along, is to show how the world is NOT a separate entity from Hashem. And we show that when we do mitzvos. And tzaddikim lead the way with that. And yidden are meant to show that to the world. This is all part of the same concept and idea. Otherwise, Jews shouldn’t rule the world, moshiach shouldn’t rule the world, and there should be no such thing as a cheftza of kedusha according to your guys logic… But that’s not true. And even the nigle sources say so.

    5) to remind ourselves not to forget irs HASHEM working through the tzadik, we daven say brochos etc to Hashem exclusively. So we remember what’s what.

    6) I said before, but DY didn’t understand me, that every yid is meant to rule the world, not be ruled by it.

    To explain my example:
    Rubashkin had crazy things happen for him that aren’t natural and normal. The reason he was able to arise above nature, was because he lived and revealed the chelek Eloka mimaal mammash inside of him. And obviously Hashem isn’t limited by nature. A yid, by tapping into his true essence of Elokus, also rises above nature. How much more so a tzadik.

    #1466424

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Just to clarify I talk plenty throughout my day directly to Hashem too.

    And since people keep bringing it up, lhavdil elef havdalos, the other guy was no tzadik at all and also held himself to be his own SEPARATE power than Hashem. That’s avoda zara.

    #1466549

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    (Maybe it’s not ok by then because they’re not talking about a tzadik gamur of Tanya, someone that is 100% batul to Hashem and doesn’t even feel like doing anything else than what Hashem wants? In which case there would be no contradiction.)…

    Many chassidim, not just Chabad will address requests to the Rebbe as well.

    I don’t believe “addressing a request” to a ממוצע is done by any other chassidim. When דור אנוש gave glory to the sun and moon, it was ultimately directed towards Hashem, but still a”z.

    First Rambam in Hilchos A”Z:

    בימי אנוש טעו בני האדם טעות גדול ונבערה עצת חכמי אותו הדור ואנוש עצמו מן הטועים היה. וזו היתה טעותם. אמרו הואיל והאלהים ברא כוכבים אלו וגלגלים להנהיג את העולם ונתנם במרום וחלק להם כבוד והם שמשים המשמשים לפניו ראויין הם לשבחם ולפארם ולחלוק להם כבוד. וזהו רצון האל ברוך הוא לגדל ולכבד מי שגדלו וכבדו. כמו שהמלך רוצה לכבד העומדים לפניו וזהו כבודו של מלך. כיון שעלה דבר זה על לבם התחילו לבנות לכוכבים היכלות ולהקריב להן קרבנות ולשבחם ולפארם בדברים ולהשתחוות למולם כדי להשיג רצון הבורא בדעתם הרעה. וזה היה עיקר עבודת כוכבים. וכך היו אומרים עובדיה היודעים עיקרה. לא שהן אומרים שאין שם אלוה אלא כוכב זה. הוא שירמיהו אומר מי לא ייראך מלך הגוים כי לך יאתה כי בכל חכמי הגוים ובכל מלכותם מאין כמוך ובאחת יבערו ויכסלו מוסר הבלים עץ הוא. כלומר הכל יודעים שאתה הוא לבדך אבל טעותם וכסילותם שמדמים שזה ההבל רצונך הוא

    #1466528

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I can only speak for myself, I do not hate people who aren’t Chabad (majority of the Jewish world) because they aren’t Chabad.

    Speaking for myself. I do not hate people who are Chabad.


    Calling our Derech “Avoda Zara” and “Not legitimate” doesn’t increase the love I have for you, as my fellow Yid.

    It doesn’t, but at a certain point, something becomes outside the realm of acceptaable hashkofoh, and must be rejected. Not the person, the hashkofoh. Throughout the generalizations, some of the biggest ohavei Yisroel have forcefully spoken out against deviant movements.

    #1466571

    Toi
    Participant

    @CS- I understand you’ve decided to completely ignore my posts for one reason or another, but anyway, you said,”When we ask the Rebbe for help, were not asking him as a human….” So you’re addressing god directly?

    As an aside, after reading several snippets of Chabad history misinformation among your posts, it may serve you well to find out some more about the rebbe’s history, starting from his early years, onto the rebbetzin and berlin, all the up to and including becoming rebbe and what really happened. What you find might be scary, but at least you won’t be living in a rewritten history.

    #1466601

    Sorry – need to set the record straight, SHY has definitely had posts deleted for nasty comments (to put it nicely) and I would have deleted more. While LC has indeed written more in volume, his deletions are towards a community and beliefs while SHY’s have been very personal. Very specifically personal. So you BOTH may want to watch your words.

    #1466582

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @toi,
    “it may serve you well to find out some more about the rebbe’s history, starting from his early years, onto the rebbetzin and berlin, all the up to and including becoming rebbe and what really happened. What you find might be scary, but at least you won’t be living in a rewritten history.”

    Well now that I know what book you’ve been reading, you have totally discredited yourself as an impartial person who just wants to understand what we believe.

    I’d advise you to read the rest of the books by those authors and see what they think of all other Chareidim. They hate and willfuly vilify all frum Yidden.

    I’m going to disprove the veracity of their claims here and now, but suffice to say, according to them, the Rebbe would have been almost 120 when he passed away. And many equally ridiculous claims refuted by first hand accounts and documentation.

    One claim they make which is quite easy to refute, is that there’s a long red carpet leading to the Rebbes Ohel, meant to signify that “there’s only one road to heaven”, and that Chassidim face the Ohel when they daven in the shul at the cemetery.

    In reality there is no red carpet, and the Ohel happens to face mizrach.

    Now, I know what you are going to say, “what book are you talking about? I never read such a thing!”. You may have not read it, although I suspect you did, but in any case, the hogwash you’re referring to all has one exclusive source, this book. (I’m not going to name it here.)

    For you to make such claims is like me referencing failed messiah (an old website critical of frumkeit) with criticism of Lakewood and the Litvishe velt.

    #1466591

    samthenylic
    Participant

    I guess what it boils down to is, by giving a “kwittel”, a “pan”, a “bekasha” to a rebbe is it asking the rebbe to affect a change in the derecho hateva to our benefit, or, it is asking the rebbe to intercede by HKB”H to grant us our wish, much like we ask a congressman, or a shtadlan, to intercede with the governmental agencies to work in our favor. Is it the shtadlan working on his own, or is he working on the “Power” to affect the change.

    #1466607

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @Mod29,
    “SHY has definitely had posts deleted for nasty comments (to put it nicely) and I would have deleted more. While LC has indeed written more in volume, his deletions are towards a community and beliefs while SHY’s have been very personal. Very specifically personal. So you BOTH may want to watch your words.”

    If I’m not mistaken, I only ever had 1 post modified, and that wasn’t even in this thread. I don’t believe I’ve ever had a post deleted.

    @rso,
    “Are you sure I don’t come in second to you:

    “Oh right, I forgot that you are the ones who calls the shots on all A”Z and Apikorsus related issues. I think I saw your sefer in the Seforim store last week, the one called “הבנת הכסיל” with the attached Kuntres “היפוכם בגולם”.”
    ?”

    I think that’s more humor than insult, but regardless, for anyone who considers me to be an Oved Avoda Zara, it’s well deserved.
    כל הפוסל במומו פוסל.

    #1466611

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Curious to see what sechel says.

    As am I. I have found some of CS’ comments highly disturbing from a hashkafic perspective and would like to see SHY straighten her out as he did regarding the “partner” comment.

    #1466619

    RSo
    Participant

    SHY: “I think that’s more humor than insult, but regardless, for anyone who considers me to be an Oved Avoda Zara, it’s well deserved.
    כל הפוסל במומו פוסל.”

    So that means that if I call an idol-worshipper an oved a”z I am an oved a”z c”v?

    #1466623

    RSo
    Participant

    Has anyone ever complimented NevilleChaimberlin for a brilliant play on words in his choice of name. Fantastic!

    #1466656

    Jersey Jew
    Participant

    What’s the question?
    “Davening” to a dead person or a live person for that manner, is avoda zora!

    #1466662

    Toi
    Participant

    @SHY- Lol, I actually have no clue what book you’re talking about. Not only do I not know its name, I was entirely unaware of its existence until you introduced it into this thread. I still don’t know its name, and have certainly never read it. There’s enough history freely available without reading whichever book in question. I do find it funny, though, that you immediately decided to turn my comment into a personal attack. In the litvishe world, the fact that frumkeit was in shambles in prewar Europe doesn’t make us nervous. We are not them and have progressed well in dikduk halachah. I simply wrote, very clearly “as an aside”, which usually means “unrelated to the topic at hand, though nevertheless a valuable idea you may find useful outside of the current discussion”, because that’s what I meant. Y’all gotta chill.

    What does remain true is that the atzmus “explanation/answer” given here is entirely insufficient, and as DY pointed, logically doesn’t follow, mima nifshach. Secondly, CS has demonstrated an extreme lack of understanding of basically every concept of Tanya she has cited, using crude mashalim and kinuyim out of context, which is why I stopped actually arguing with her. I suppose this is the chabad education system’s fault, trying to teach little kids about things way beyond their pay grade, resulting in an (assumed) near universal lack of understanding and ability to internalize the sefer later in life. Thirdly, no answer has been given to answer up the kol yachol sicha, and, what I think is really the most damning, besides the actual hiskashrus “hashkofo”, is that I’ve never heard one word of condemnation from any chabad rov on any questionable practice/belief. I understand that you may think the bais moshiach magazine is questionable at best, and I imagine your rov does, too, so why is noone outspoken about theses cuckoo publications? I’m sure the best and brightest have no problem putting pen to paper when a litvishe gadol writes a critical piece on chabad, as has been the case in the past, so why can’t they do the same if chabad is being threatened from within? Also, why do those weirdos/black sheep continue to hold powerful positions within chabad. In analytical, logical thinking, most of this points to one answer. That everything written in this thread so far has been classic evasion, and the answer is a lot more uncomfortable than you’d like it to be. After a couple weeks learning in one of the big brisker yeshivos, I coined a line, which I think is very appropriate here. “Ein kasha iz a kasha, und tzvei kashas is shoin a yesod mit a raya.” How very applicable.

    #1466663

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @sh can you just answer the questions? It seems your approach is to say that nothing is a chiddush and we’re the same as everyone else. If so, please explain. I see the chiddush although the practice isn’t a chiddush as other chassidisidim request things from their Rebbeim as well.

    @DY yeah thanks for the Rambam. I like how you bring sources. Two important points:

    1) the Rambam says they made a mistake.what was it? the sun etc has no free choice to decide who to give hashpoah to. So serving it is like thanking the axe instead of the Woodchopper.

    People on the other hand, so have free choice, which is why we have a mitzva to respect our parents and Rebbeim.

    2) the sun is a classic example of a mimutza hamafsik. The people who davened it eventually forgot about Hashem because the sun is just one of His servants, and not one with HIM. So they worshiped the servant and eventually forgot about the master.

    But we yidden ARE one with Hashem, and by tzaddikim this is revealed. Therefore since Hashem is one with tzaddikim, its mimutza hamechaber (as sechel explained in his long post) as you’re addressing Hashem directly and you’ll never forget about Him cvs.

    Now instead of saying I sound problematic how about you now address all the sources we’ve brought, starting with the Rebbe’s sources.

    I know you brought the context for WHY Rabbi Yitzchak was referred to as Hevaya, but the fact is the Yerushalmi has no problem calling him Hevaya for judging correctly, because in this way he reveals Hevaya.

    Also address how Moshe rabbeinu spoke in the first person when he said v’anochi nosati esev, even though it’s Hahem Who provides etc.

    #1466692

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I know you brought the context for WHY Rabbi Yitzchak was referred to as Hevaya

    No, the gemara was not saying he was havaya.

    At most it’s an analogy, and there is a way of reading the gemara which doesn’t even make that analogy, and according to the girsa of the ככר לאדן, you can’t even read the gemara as an analogy.

    The Rebbe chose to read the gemara in a way which demonstrates the problematic idea he wished to espouse, but the gemara is in no way a proof.

    #1466702

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, you keep going back and forth between saying you’re allowed to daven to the Rebbe because he’s a memutzeh hamechaber, and denying that you’re davening to the Rebbe. Please make up your mind.

    And don’t kid yourself; there are people who call him boreinu; you don’t think they’re likely to forget about Hashem? Besides, shituf is assur even if Hashem is in the picture. Worshiping the sun is not only assur because one might forget Hashem.

    #1466838

    5ish
    Participant

    Because there are those of you who perhaps mistakenly think that all of these “wild ideas” about the role and power of tzaddikim were made up The Lubavitcher Rebbe between the years 1950 and 1994, you should take a look at early and fundamental chassidic works and you will see that things like this are nothing new. If other chassidim today do not believe them than that just means they ceased to believe in chassidus or are lacking in the emuna required of chassidim. Just for example you can look at the Noam Elimelech on Parshas Terumah. The Noam Elimelech is one of if not THE foundational texts of “polish” chassidus.

    Sefer Shemot, Terumah, ‘Comment’ 1
    ויקחו לי תרומה. פירש רש”י ז”ל “לי לשמי”. נראה לי דהנה הצדיק ע”י עוסקו בתורה לשמה ומנדב את לבו למקום ב”ה, ע”י זה הוא מרים ומעלה את הדינים לשורשם וממתיקם שם וממילא פועל רחמים וחסדים, וזהו “ויקחו לי תרומה” ר”ל שיקחו וילמדו את התורה, שע”י זה ירימו “לי תרומה”, דהיינו שיעלו את הדינים למעלה להמתיקם. וזה שפירש רש”י ז”ל “לי לשמי”, ר”ל שרש”י ז”ל מרמז שקאי על התורה היא שמותיו של הקב”ה, ותלמדו את התורה לשמה להמשיך אותי “לשמי”, דהיינו לתורתי שהיא שמותי, וזהו לי לשמי, להמשיך אותי לשמי לתורתי, וזאת התורה תפעול המתקת הדינים בשורשם.
    ‎וזהו שאמר דוד המלך ע”ה “אקרא לאלהים עליון כו׳”, ד”אלקים עליון” הוא עולם העליון אשר משם התחלת הדינים, והצדיק הממתיק אותם צריך להמתיקם שם בשורשם. ואמר דוד המלך ע”ה “אקרא לאלהים עליון”, ר”ל שאני ממתיק הדינים שם בשורשם הנקרא “אלהים עליון”, “לאל” ר”ל וממילא נעשים רחמים וחסד כמ”ש חסד אל כל היום, “גומר עלי” ר”ל ואז ממילא בא החסד אלי למטה ונגמר אלי הרחמים והחסד. והבן. וק”ל.
    Sefer Shemot, Terumah, ‘Comment’ 2
    או יאמר דהנה הצדיק בכל יום ויום הוא מרבה השפעות יותר להשפיע לעולם. וזהו פירוש “יום ליום יביע אומר”, יביע מלשון מעיין הנובע, שבכל יום נובע השפעתו שמשפיע יותר ויותר. וזהו “יודע ה׳ ימי תמימים כו׳”, דבאברהם אבינו ע”ה נאמר “עתה ידעתי כי ירא אלהים אתה”, ולהבין אין שייך לומר אצל הבורא ב”ה “עתה ידעתי” משמע ולא קודם חלילה. אך הענין הוא כשהצדיק מתנהג בקדושתו ימים רבים אזי הוא מביא קדושתו ועבודתו למעלה עד הבורא ב”ה, ולכן אחר שנתנסה אברהם אבינו ע”ה בעשר נסיונות, אמר השי”ת “עתה ידעתי”, ר”ל שעלה קדושתך למעלה אלי, וזה נקרא “ידיעה” לשון חיבור ממש בבורא ב”ה. וזהו “יודע ה׳ ימי תמימים”, פירוש כל יום ויום של הצדיקים התמימים עולים למעלה עד הבורא ב”ה ומתקנים הצינורות ההשפעות, ואחר שיקום עוד צדיק כמותם, אזי הוא ג”כ מתקן הצינורות וממשיך השפעות עוד נוסף על הצדיקים הראשונים, דהיינו מה שתיקנו ופעלו הצדיקים הראשונים קיימת לעד וכל צדיק הבא אח”כ הוא מוסיף תיקון על תיקון הראשונים, וזהו “ונחלתם”, דהיינו ירושתם שהם מורישים לעולם, “לעולם תהיה”.
    ‎וזהו “ויקחו לי תרומה”, ר”ל ע”י שאתם תעלו ותגביהו עבודתכם הקודש אלי עד שמי ממש, וזהו “לי לשמי”, ע”י זה תקחו “תרומה”, דהיינו השפעות, ולא זה בלבד שע”י מעשיכם ועבודתכם תגרמו השפעות, אלא שגם “מאת כל איש אשר ידבנו לבו תקחו תרומתי”, פירוש גם מכל איש צדיק וצדיק הקודם לכם תקחו ג”כ תרומתי דהיינו השפעתי לישראל. וק”ל.
    Sefer Shemot, Terumah, ‘Comment’ 3
    או יאמר “ויקחו לי תרומה”, דדוד המלך ע”ה אמר “מה גדלו מעשיך ה׳ מאוד עמקו מחשבותיך”. י”ל הפירוש, דהנה יש ב׳ מיני צדיקים, דהיינו יש צדיק העובד השם במעשים טובים ועובדות כשרות בגופו ועדיין לא הגיע למדריגות מחשבות בדביקות גמור בבורא יתברך ויתעלה במחשבתו הטהורה, והצדיק הזה הוא גורם תיקון השכינה הקדושה והטהורה, אבל עדיין אין בידו הכח להשפיע השפעות טובות לעולם, ויש צדיק הדבוק בבורא יתברך במחשבות קדושות תמיד ודביקות בלי הפסק, הצדיק הזה הוא גורם השפעות גדולות לעולם, וזהו “מה גדלו מעשיך ה'”, ר”ל מדריגות הצדיקים העוסקים במעשים טובים, “מאד עמקו מחשבותיך”, רמז לצדיק הנ”ל העובד במחשבות, זה עמוק עמוק מי ימצאנו.
    ‎וזהו “גדולים מעשי ה׳ דרושים לכל חפציהם”, דהיינו המעשים טובים והתורה והמצוות הם גדולים מאוד, ולא עוד אלא שהצדיק יכול לדרוש אותם לכל חפצי בני אדם לגרום להם השפעות וברכות וטובות.
    ‎וזהו “ויקחו לי תרומה”, פירש רש”י ז”ל “לשמי”, רמז למדריגת הצדיקים העובדים במעשים טובים וגורמים העלאת השכינה הקדושה, “מאת כל איש אשר ידבנו לבו”, ר”ל אבל על ידי אותו הצדיק המנדב את לבו בכל מכל כל במחשבותיו ומנדב את עצמו לשמים, על ידי הצדיק תקחו הכל, דהיינו “תקחו את תרומתי” דהיינו קדושתי, וגם נוסף על זאת שיהיה לכם השפעות על ידו, וזהו “וזאת” וי”ו מוסיף על ענין ראשון – תקחו את תרומתי, גם “וזאת אשר תקחו מאתם זהב וכסף ונחושת”, דהיינו השפעות גדולות ברכות וטובות. וק”ל.

    #1466829

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    You can’t daven to the Rebbe, you can ask for brachos.

    No one in lubavitch calls the Rebbe boreinu cvs. That’s a libel.

    Right you can’t because it’s shituf- considering another entity other than Hashem to have autonomous power. (Was just adding that’s why they forgot Hashem.)

    Anyhow I think we can agree that there are different ways to interpret the gemara and maybe some of the other sources brought. Although you haven’t addressed any of the others, let’s just say.

    This all happened in 1950 before the Rebbe became Rebbe and it was asked on many times. The Rebbe answered with explaining the difference between mimutza hamafsik vs mimutza hamechaber, brought above.

    The Rebbe lived his whole life as a tzadik gamur and others accepted him as such as well. He was also a tremendous gaon – in fact probably unparalleled.

    So I’m gonna go with what the Rebbe said. You don’t have to. The Rebbe even told his chassidim they don’t have to. But you cannot place yourself on the same level as the Rebbe to decide you know gemara and halacha better. Any gemara
    you bring the Rebbe knew as well. Plus he knew all of pnimius HaTorah as well in addition to all of nigle.

    @rso can you give me the name of feivels Rebbe? Its good for my own knowledge to know who else is considered a tzadik gamur of the Tanya.

    As for the rest of your comment, Chabad is also unique from other chassidim as we go into the reasons for this with Chabad, chochma bina and Daas, while their tzaddikim focus on the darchei HaChassidus, such as niggunim, tishen etc the emotions of Avodas Hashem. So that would make sense it could be completely out of place there.

    And for the last part, the Rebbe lived as a tzadik gamur his whole life and to restate, these comments weren’t made in 92, they were made in 50. Etc see above.

    #1466875

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You can’t daven to the Rebbe, you can ask for brachos.

    That’s what you say now. Next post you might go back to saying you can because he was the tzaddik gamur of the Tanya. (Someone doesn’t need to be a tzaddik to ask for brachos.)


    No one in lubavitch calls the Rebbe boreinu cvs. That’s a libel.

    Semantics. You call them not Lubavich. No true Scotsman. It doesn’t change my point that the characteristics you assign to the Rebbe besides being inherently problematic, lead to even worse.

    Anyhow I think we can agree that there are different ways to interpret the gemara

    And the other sources as well. Which leads us back to your accepting the Rebbe’s wild claims simply because he said them, no other reason.

    and others accepted him as such as well

    And others did not. You make it sound as if it’s an undisputed fact. It isn’t.

    So we continue to go in circles.

    #1466878

    5ish
    Participant

    Perhaps some of you will also find the following interesting. I have copied it directly from the World of Belz website which is connected to international Belzer mosdos.

    “BRING DOWN THE BLESSINGS
    All the blessings we have in life — our health, our spouses, our children, our livelihood — come from above. But how do we bring them down to us? How can we ask for and deserve the abundance that awaits every Jew?

    One way is to connect to a tzadik — one of the Great Ones of our tradition. Reb Aharon of Belz was such a one… a Rebbe of such holiness that even after his passing, he continues to look down on each of us and offer this most astounding guarantee: if you connect with him, he will give you his personal support, connecting your wishes with the Source of all blessings in heaven.”

    Here you see that the doctrine of the Tzaddik being a “link” between God and the People of Israel.

    #1466885

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Perhaps some of you will also find the following interesting.

    Perhaps interesting to some, but irelevant to the discussion. If you think it is relevant to the discussion, then you are misunderstanding at least one side of the argument.

    #1466902

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    5ish- thank you for bringing up that point. There are countless stories about rabbeim of all stripes who did such miracles and nobody doubted any of it. The problem, again, is that CS will make the statement and then add the inference. She lists the miracles and then claims that it proves the rebbe’s equivalence to a Malachi, having conquered his y”h (not something a person is qualified to conclude) or oneness with Hashem. When the response was that we don’t accept the automatic jumped-to conclusion, she assumed we were denying that tzaddikim do this. Frankly, it just wasn’t even worth correcting her but since you brought it up…yes, rabbeim were capable of these types of miracles and there are endless stories about them. You are correct. It was neither unique to the lubavitcher rebbe’s, nor proof of the things CS (alone) attaches to it as fact.

    #1466924

    5ish
    Participant

    @daasyochid

    “then you are misunderstanding at least one side of the argument.”

    The subject line says this topic is about betten a Rebbe. Perhaps I misjudged in not just copy and pasting the entire page, I assumed the context was understood. Mosdos Belz say explicitly that you can give a certain amount of money and write a kvittel with a request and that someone will read your kvittel at the tziyon of R’ Aharon of Belz. The reason being as delineated in what I did copy and paste: Giving tzedaka to support the cause supported by R’ Aharon is a way of connecting to him. Since connecting to the tzaddik is a way of connecting to Hashem, and R’ Aharon will support you and connect your request to Hashem.

    In what world do you think that is not connected to the subject of making requests of Rebbe’s and here is a specific instance of making requests from a “dead” Rebbe.

    @syaglchochma

    I have not been able to follow each point and tit for tat in this conversation. I don’t know what killing yetzer haras has to do directly with the conversation. I thought what was being discussed is whether or not one can make requests from tzaddikim, and whether or not this is appropriate by the graves of tzaddikim as well.

    #1466948

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    In what world do you think that is not connected to the subject of making requests of Rebbe’s and here is a specific instance of making requests from a “dead” Rebbe.

    It didn’t say anything about making requests from the Belzer Rebbe

    #1466967

    5ish
    Participant

    @daasyochid again, I wrote that I thought contextually it was understood however, here I submit for you what I have copied and am pasting which appears further down the page:

    “I wish to support Reb Aharon’s talmidim with the donation of $ _____
    For your donation, the yeshiva’s Rabbis will deliver your kvittel — your written personal requests of the Rebbe — bringing blessings on you, your family, and all Israel.”

    If you give money to support the Belzer yeshiva, this will be seen as a way to connecting to the Tzaddik R’ Aharon. As such, you can send a kvittel enumerating your requests from the Rebbe.

    I.E. in Belz, they hold of betten the Rebbe.

    #1466968

    5ish
    Participant

    Further down the page is a video that displays the following words: “We can also ask for blessing from the great one. Tzaddikim. Even after they have passed on. Especially after they passed on. After all, they are that much closer to the source.”

    #1466984

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Please read past the thread title.

    We are not arguing on giving a kvittel to the Rebbe. The specific definition of “betten the Rebbe” that you are using is not what we are discussing. It is assigning “yachol hakol” powers, making requests of him directly, atzmus in a guf, and the like which are not present in other chassidus which is the issue.

    #1466996

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I don’t know what killing yetzer haras has to do directly with the conversation.

    me neither. I don’t even know where you got that from. DY already said what I was gonna say, that we weren’t arguing about giving a kvittel, davening at a kever, building a connection even with a “dead rebbe” as you phrased it. The problem is the other side of that. When someone makes a connection with a Rebbe who was niftar and makes bakashos from him, when it comes to be, the response of the petitioner is that the rebbe succeeded in pleading his case to Hashem. Nobody would ever say the words, “let me tell you about some personal experiences I have had with the Rebbe” when referring to a rebbe who died before they were born. I have not found SY or you to make such claims, but CS has made many like this (including that one). That was one piece of what was being addressed in regard to communicating with someone who was niftar, it was the impression of the role that niftar is playing.

    Ive lost both parents and two sisters. When I have a bakasha for something that one of them lived thru or helped others thru, I will specifically call out to them in prayer begging them to advocate for me. I speak to them directly, though they have died, and I believe their negius to both me and the cause will have more influence before Hashem than the prayers of a guf but I don’t believe for a second that they are orchestrating the salvation through their oneness with Gd. They are advocates. Any salvation they bring is Gds doing.

    I know you know this. I am not hearing that it is universally accepted. I am hearing disturbing comments to the contrary. Saying they are disturbing is not being mean, it is following Torah.

    #1467011

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    A tzadik, by connecting himself to the power of Hashem, is not limited by nature, and can do the impossible.

    Can a tzaddik make a triangle with four sides?

    The Wolf

    #1467012

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @SyagLchochma,
    “They are advocates. Any salvation they bring is Gds doing.

    I know you know this. I am not hearing that it is universally accepted. I am hearing disturbing comments to the contrary. Saying they are disturbing is not being mean, it is following Torah.”

    For once, I think we’re saying the same thing.
    I am not sure if CS thinks this way or not, but it has become apparent that she does have a slightly warped view on Hiskashrus and a Rebbe. (I don’t mean to put her down, but I do mean to say that because she thinks a certain way doesn’t make it indicative of Chabad Shitta.

    I would say that our Shitta is 100% in line with the above quoted Tshuvos Mahram Shick.

    I think I summed up very clearly what I do and don’t believe before Shabbos.

    #1467056

    5ish
    Participant

    “We are not arguing on giving a kvittel to the Rebbe. The specific definition of “betten the Rebbe” that you are using is not what we are discussing. It is assigning “yachol hakol” powers, making requests of him directly”

    I just brought you an example of Belzer Mosdos advocating that you can make requests directly from The Belzer Rebbe, and that through your connection to him, and his connection to God, you are more likely to experience yeshuos and have your requests fulfilled. Any chossid of The Belzer Rebbe will relate to this as having had a personal experience with The Belzer Rebbe where the Rebbe through his Tzidkus was able to effect things in shamayim that the person himself could not have otherwise accomplished through just his own relationship to God.

    Ironically, something you wrote is exactly the answer to the question you are asking. “Any salvation they bring is Gds doing” That is gufa why it is not a problem to make requests from The Rebbe and is not God forbid an intermediary or a shutif or whatever. The Rebbe is just a tool of God in the world. The Aibishter is a kol yachol and he uses tzaddikim as a way of interacting with the world and with people. Any salvation is purely God’s doing.

    ” Nobody would ever say the words, “let me tell you about some personal experiences I have had with the Rebbe” when referring to a rebbe who died before they were born.”

    Let me tell you about some personal experiences I have had with Rabbi Yosef Karo and Rabbi Moshe Isserles. I cannot explain to you the countless times per every single day that things came up and I was absolutely unsure what to do with myself, but after consulting their holy words and sage counsel I was able to fulfill myriads of positive commandments and avoid myriads of transgressions.

    I don’t see the ultimate relevance of your point, but in the spirit of having passed Shabbos Mevarchim Chodesh Elul please find my comment at least in good humor if you do not accept the point I am trying to make.

    I know a man who thinks he can connect to God through making a series of motions with his arms and a pair of inanimate objects. Surely this seems like Avoda Zara? Don’t we believe as Jews that we connect directly to God without the necessity of any intermediary? Yet many people consider this man to be a frum Jew. First he takes a leather box and he winds a leather strap around his arm 7 times. Then he takes another leather box and he affixes it to his forehead and moves it back and forth until it settles directly in the center. He then proceeds to whisper all sorts of incantations from a book while swaying and bowing and genuflecting. How can we let such a machla enter Klal Yisroel. Vehaya Machanecha Kadosh. You don’t need leather boxes and straps to connect to God. Whoops.

    I don’t think CS is guilty of anything other than being in way over her head.

    As far as discussing if The Rebbe is someone who can be relied upon to vouch for himself I am comfortable in trusting Harav Hagaon R’ Moshe Feinstein who addressed The Lubavitcher Rebbe as HaGaon HaTzaddik in writing. I.E. Harav Hagain R’ Moshe held that The Lubavitcher Rebbe was both learned and morally upright.

    #1467075

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Why does the Rebbe, someone who lived fairly recently, play this role? Why not Moshe Rabbeinu?

    #1467076

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    5ish, regarding the tefillin story, nobody is saying that we don’t need intermediaries. We are objecting to declaring the intermediary a kol yachol, claiming to know he had no yetzer hora and declaring him a partner of Gd.

    I much appreciate your attempt to clarify your beliefs but, as you said you did not follow the thread, you may have missed some points being made that represent chabad very differently.

    Kol tuv

    #1467088

    RSo
    Participant

    5ish: “I don’t see the ultimate relevance of your point, but in the spirit of having passed Shabbos Mevarchim Chodesh Elul ”

    Wow! Has this thread being going on that long?

    #1467090

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “He was also a tremendous gaon – in fact probably unparalleled.”

    Did you learn that in school too? Sheesh! It just gets better and better!

    #1467089

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “@rso can you give me the name of feivels Rebbe? Its good for my own knowledge to know who else is considered a tzadik gamur of the Tanya.”

    It’s not a matter of who else is considered a tzadik gamur as you might very well dispute Feivel in that matter. The point is that you seem to think that only lubavitch believes as greatly in their rebbe as opposed to other chassidiim, and as anyone who hangs around with other chassidim knows that is patently untrue. And that despite that their rebbes have never said anything as outlandish as atzmus melubash, dor shvi’i etc.

    “Chabad is also unique from other chassidim as we go into the reasons for this with Chabad, chochma bina and Daas, while their tzaddikim focus on the darchei HaChassidus, such as niggunim, tishen etc the emotions of Avodas Hashem. So that would make sense it could be completely out of place there.”

    Can I hazard a guess that you were taught that in a lubavitcher school or heard it from a lubavicher mashpia? I have heard the above line in different formats many many times and it is just lubavitch propaganda pumping up their chassidim to believe they are better than anyone else. In simple English, the statement is absolute garbage!

    Just one example: dancing around drinking vodka singing yechi is chochma bina and daas. Sitting at a tish and listening to the rebbe’s torah is just emotion.

    Did you really believe absolutely everything they taught you?

    #1467103

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ CS

    “the Rebbe was accepted by many gedolim as a tzadik gamur. A revelation of Hashem in this world.”

    Which Gadol described the Lubavitcher Rebbe Z”L in this way??

    #1467111

    5ish
    Participant

    Sorry meant to write chodesh Adar.

    Are you disputing the Baal hatanya’s definition of what a tzaddik is or are you contending that we do not have the tools to identify tzaddikim and therefore identifying specific people as tzaddikim is inappropriate?

    #1467097

    big deal
    Participant

    Rso: You’re being too harsh. CS is young and has obviously not stepped out of her Chabad bubble yet. Her thinking her Rebbe is the greatest is normal. Any chossid would believe that about their Rebbe especially if they were born into it. I don’t think it’s fair to attack on that point.

    What’s scary is that she teaches, she claims. She’s clueless to the foundations and boundaries of daas yisroel yet is convinced that she understands the deep thoughts of the Rambam and the Baal Hatanya.

    #1467140

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Just one example: dancing around drinking vodka singing yechi is chochma bina and daas. Sitting at a tish and listening to the rebbe’s torah is just emotion.”

    100% on point. I don’t think he’s being harsh at all. Everyone here is an adult and should know better. That fact that Chabadniks have purposely cut themselves off from learning anything about other Chassidim so that all they have to go by are there own incorrect stereotypes should not allow them to plead ignorance.

    #1467154

    5ish
    Participant

    ““Just one example: dancing around drinking vodka singing yechi is chochma bina and daas. Sitting at a tish and listening to the rebbe’s torah is just emotion.”

    100% off point. That is obviously not what CS meant and the fact that you wrote that is indicative that you don’t know anything about Chassidus, Chabad or otherwise, or you are being libelous with malicious intentions.

    The fact is, and this is coming from someone who studies a variety of of shittos in “Jewish thought” that the Baal Hatanya had a very specific and unique idea about the applications of Chassidus. The Baal Hatanya believed that the in-depth study of the Esoteric was not just for yechidei segulah and the extremely righteous, but that every individual has the potential and the obligation to raise himself up to be baal nefesh and a baal avoda and that part and parcel of that is the in depth study of pnimiyus hatorah. If you want to be honest with yourself for one second you can browse through either Likutei Torah or Torah Ohr and in a significant number of the maamarim (if not the majority) the Baal Hatanya expresses his view that a person needs to meditate in detail about various levels of Seder Hishtalshilus and that despite their composition and lofty levels that they are truly as naught when compared to God himself as God is utterly transcendent and unaprehensible etc etc etc.

    Open a Kedushas Levi, an Ohev Yisroel, a Noam Elimelech, a Beis Aharon, and see if the maamorim printed there are detailed in their explanation of kabbalistic ideas (if they even explain at all) or if there is any such focus on the individual attaining a comprehension of the divine.

    For precisely his unique conception of Chassidus The Baal Hatanya was opposed by R Boruch Mezibuzher, R’ Ahron Karliner, R’ Mordechai Lechovitzher, R’ Avrohom Kalisker etc, and despite not being in direct opposition to him, Chassidus conceived by The Rebbe R’ Elemelech is markedly different from Chabad Chassidus in shifting of the focus of Chassidus to being about hiskashrus with tzaddikim, and this was further developed by the Chozeh and the other Rebbe’s of Poland (excepting of course the divergence from this path by the school of Pshischa, and its offshoots in Kotzk etc.)

    #1467307

    samthenylic
    Participant

    This is why you have SO MANY well meaning, but off-the-wall meshugaim among Lubavicher chasidim. You force feed them concepts they know nothing about & are not ready to comprehend, they become confused, “Chachamim hizharu bedivrechem… etc”. Look where they are now, at A”Z mamosh!

    #1467316

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    CS- any reason you didn’t answer RebYidd23’s question? Why davka the rebbe and not any other tzaddikim from the past?

    #1467346

    laskern
    Participant

    We are forbidden to daven to the Rebbe or to a Malach. They are conduits through their prayer, because of their greatness, to be listened to us who don’t have does zechusim, benefits.

    #1467350

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha,

    “Just to clarify I talk plenty throughout my day directly to Hashem too.”

    What do you mean by “too”?

    “And since people keep bringing it up, lhavdil elef havdalos, the other guy was no tzadik at all and also held himself to be his own SEPARATE power than Hashem. That’s avoda zara.”

    No, they claim he was “G-d in the flesh”, chas veshalom, which is frighteningly similar to your arguments here. This whole conversation has been quite disturbing.

    #1467355

    5ish
    Participant

    I talk to my mother in law too, I talk to my boss too, why are you so bothered by who people are talking to???

    #1467374

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    I’m going to take a break now, being that my words have been twisted to imply things I never meant. Including by a fellow lubavitcher.
    Sechel I understand that you are a chossid although we have differences in how we are mekushar. Just because you may not hold of iggros etc. doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with it. In fact, quite the opposite. I know it’s tempting to think you’re way is right and 70% of Chabad is wrong, but the Rebbe made it very clear to me that both ways are acceptable, and therefore I’ve kept quiet many times when you’ve said things I disagree with. I expect the same courtesy.

    5ish you’re doing a great job presenting what I was saying in yet another way. Maybe you’re better at explaining. Great one with bringing belzer example.

    It seems to me that people are badly biased against Chabad, as no one said a word against the belzer chassidim although it seems until now they’ve been adamant that’s is not ok.

    Looks like everyone thinks were crazy (agreed, we do things no one else does) and are just trying to pin it on something negative. Others love us for it.

    I came here to interact with fellow yidden as friends. I don’t feel I’m being treated as one though. So I guess I’ll go back to my lubavitch farbrengen WhatsApp groups unless this attitude is cleared up.

    Rebyid23 your question has already been addressed in this thread.

    Mods thank you for allowing this conversation. The only way to reach achdus is by discussing our differences, respecting them, and emphasising our commonalities. So I appreciate your allowing this conversation.

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