Cheating by Eating Cholov Akum

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  • #601164
    cantgetit
    Member

    Our family’s psak from our posek is that we cannot eat non-Cholov Yisroel. Our posek holds that all non real CY is Cholov Akum; essentially according to his psak halacha there is no concept of Cholov Stam. So my question is that unfortunately I haven’t been faithful to his psak. I have eaten OU-D on occasion. In my circumstances, is this equivelent to eating Cholov Akum mamish?

    #835983
    Sam2
    Participant

    It depends on a lot of things in every situation and why your Posek says this. But the answer is probably yes.

    #835984
    akuperma
    Participant

    If you hold that Cholov Stam is prohibited, that’s your business. Certainly if you were in American 150 years ago, all milk had to be considered non-kosher (back in the era when middle class people owned their own cows, and milk sold in stores was sold by “quality” depending on what it was diluted with).

    #835985
    MDG
    Participant

    It seems to me that there is another issue. IIRC, Rav Moshe says that Chalav Companies is like Chalav Yisrael. But if one decided to take on real Chalav Yisrael, then that practice becomes a neder (see Igros Moshe, it think it’s in Y”D 1 pages 82-89). Breaking a neder is a very serious matter.

    As in all cases CYLOR.

    #835986
    cantgetit
    Member

    MDG, in my case my posek doesn’t agree with Rav Moshe’s psak on this, so it is more than just a neder. He holds OU-D is cholov akum mamish.

    #835987
    dash™
    Participant

    He holds OU-D is cholov akum mamish.

    In that case how can you trust the OU for anything?

    #835988
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    He holds OU-D is cholov akum mamish.

    In that case how can you trust the OU for anything?

    That’s silly. Just because you disagree on a specific halacha, doesn’t mean you don’t trust them. Beis Hillel and Beis Shammai used to tell each other which people were mamzerim or pagum according to each other’s halacha.

    #835989
    passfan
    Member

    Why can’t someone trust OU even if they do not rely on ou-d? They trust the reliability of OU without accepting the kula of cholov stam.

    #835990
    dash™
    Participant

    I wouldn’t trust anyone that gave a hechsher on chalav akum mamish. There is a big difference between not using a kula and not accepting its existance.

    #835991
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I wouldn’t trust anyone that gave a hechsher on chalav akum mamish. There is a big difference between not using a kula and not accepting its existance.

    Nice. So you are making up your own halachos about whom you trust as kosher for eidus.

    I don’t think I would trust your kashrus- I only trust people who follow actual shittos, not people make up whatever floats their boat.

    #835992
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I wouldn’t trust anyone that gave a hechsher on chalav akum mamish. There is a big difference between not using a kula and not accepting its existance.

    The OU doesn’t lose credibility for relying on a kula from R’ Moshe Feinstein Zt”l and being clear about it.

    Even if some don’t agree with R’ Moshe.

    #835993
    midwesterner
    Participant

    MDG: Reb Moshe does NOT say that Chalac Companies is like Chalav Yisroel. He says there is what to rely on, but Baal Nefesh Yachmir.

    #835994
    cherrybim
    Participant

    Just because your posek only eats glatt meat; it doesn’t mean that you are eating treif when you eat meat that is OU non-glatt.

    #835995
    dash™
    Participant

    Actually I’m just pointing out that the position that the OP claims that his Rav holds of has ramifications further than just dairy products.

    I don’t think I would trust your kashrus

    You shouldn’t. You don’t know anything about me.

    #835996
    Dr D
    Participant

    You all need a bit of clarification on a number of points.

    1) OU-D does NOT mean it is dairy. OU has no Parve but made on “Dairy Equipment”. OU-D means it may have milk products or it simply may be parve but was made on dairy equipment. Unfortunately, the only way to tell the difference is to read the ingredients.

    2)HaRav Moshe Feinstein was America’s greatest posek and gadol hador. He paskened for the United States and Canada on many complex and major halachic issues that dwarf the issue of cholov yisroel. Believe me, even HaRav Eliyashiv and ZTL HaRav Shlomo zalman Auerbach considered HaRav Moshe as a truly great and equal posek and even when they disagreed with him, they agreed that he paskens for America and they pasken for Eretz Yisroel and Americans should listen to his psak. If you can rely on HaRav Moshe’s psak in severely complex issues, he can be relied upon for less chomur issues.

    3) HaRav Moshe paskened that “Yediyah is K’Rieyah”. The absolute knowledge that milk has to be Kosher in that it has come solely from cows, is halachically equal to seeing the milk being milked directly. In other words, what people call cholov stam is actually according to the psak of HaRav Moshe actually halachically cholov yisroel as Yediyah k’rieyah. HaRav Moshe held that for chinuch purposes, schools, institutions and families when able, should use cholov yisroel in order for children to know that outside of the United States hashgacha on milk is an absolute requirement.

    4) No one claims that cholov akum is kosher.

    5) It is very easy for anyone to claim additional chumros and be mivatel what they perceive as kulos. Chazal come out harshly against those who behave this way as it destroys Kllal Yisroel as not all can withstand endless chumros. It makes Hashem’s Torah unpalatable to the rabim and creates machlokes and sinah. Never ever should someone even suggest to impugn the psak or character of HaRav Moshe Feinstein, a posek of a caliber that one sees if fortunate, once in a lifetime.

    #835997
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Actually I’m just pointing out that the position that the OP claims that his Rav holds of has ramifications further than just dairy products.

    And I’m just pointing out that you are incorrect about that. See, we’re both just pointing out.

    #835998
    passfan
    Member

    Dr D: You can’t assume if you don’t see a dairy ingredient, that an OU-D product is merely “dairy equipment”.

    And Rav Moshe himself recognized that other poskim could disagree with him and that some would follow others on other issues. Do you use a timer on an air conditioner on Shabbos, even though Rav Moshe held it impermissible?

    #835999
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Dr D,

    1) There are those who are makpid for keilim as well.

    2) Very doubtful that Rav Elyashiv and R’ Shlomo Zalman ever told anyone that it’s not better to eat cholov Yisroel.

    3) R’ Moshe still recommended cholov Yisroel (in the classic sense).

    4) Pri Chodosh (in some cases).

    5) Disagreeing with R’ Moshe (as many big poskim did) is in no way impugning his character.

    #836000
    cherrybim
    Participant

    “3) R’ Moshe still recommended cholov Yisroel (in the classic sense).”

    He didn’t. Rav Moshe said that one who wants to go beyond the halacha (lifnei m’shuras hadin) may eat cholov Yisroel (in the classic sense).

    #836001
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
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