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chicken

(28 posts)
  • Started 11 months ago by pcoz
  • Latest reply from ItcheSrulik

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  1. pcoz
    Member

    someone told me there was an article in the hamodia that related the following shaaloh that was asked to Rav Elyashuv shlit"a;

    someone gave someone else a lift on erev shabbos. after the boiling hot weekend they came back to their car. when they opened the door they were overwhelmed by the smell of rotten chicken from a bag their passenger had left in the car on friday. the smell was so bad that they had to have the upholstery in their car replaced. the question is, does the person who received a luift have to pay for the cost of replacing the upholstery?

    rav elyashuv shlit"a ruyles that yes, they do have to pay. may take on it is that this is equivalent to avno sakino umasao sheinichan al hagag venaphlu beruach metzuyah and they were mazik while they were falling down in which case the person who put them on the roof is chayav mishum esh.

    the chicken has the potential to be mazik once exposed to the sun and rotted, the sun is like the ruach that blows the fire along / blows the item off the roof.

    I have a different question;
    What would be the halachah if the person with the bags came to the car owner on erev shabbos and said to them; can I please leave my bags in your car for an hour, I have some more shopping to do and need somewhere to leave them while I do the rest of my shopping. Then they forget to take the bags out of the car and the smell of the chicken damages the upholstery.

    In this case the person brought the bags into the car bireshus, and he is a shoel on the car. Then he was mazik the car by not removing the bags. The question is - I think there is a ketzos somewhere who says that if I see your sheep in my chatzer and I intend to steal it via my chatzer - then I am not yet a ganav becuase I have done no maaseh genevah. In order for me to become a ganav I have to do a maaseh genevah - for example closing the door on the courtyard.

    In the case of the chicken in the car - my initial leaving the chicken in the car is bireshus. Therefore the 'not taking the chicken out of the car' which is not a maaseh (mazik) - cannot by itself be a cause of me having to pay for the item that I am a shoel on (the car).

    So my question is - do we say just as in the case of a ganav there must be a maaseh genevah - so too in the case of a shomer who is mazik there must be a maaseh hezek?

    (The difference between this case the case of the hamodia is that when the person took the lift with their bags - there was never any agreement or arrangement between the passenger and the car owner. The bags were there becuase he was there and he was never explicitly machnis them bireshus.)

    Any thoughts anyone :-)

    Posted 11 months ago #
  2. The Goq™
    Founder, President, Vice President and CEO of the CR Welcome Wagon!

    Oh i thought this was gonna be about Frank Francisco.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  3. Csar
    Joseph

    In either case, asking a shaila isn't sufficient. The one who wishes to be compensated needs to bring the other party to Beis Din. Otherwise he can't be forced to pay based upon a shaila alone.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  4. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    I hear the shaila but I don't chap why you're saying that the guy becomes a shoel on the car. Either way this case is l'fum rihata a mefureshe mishna (Bava Kama 47a):

    הקדר שהכניס קדרותיו לחצר בעל הבית שלא ברשות ושברה בהמתו של בעל הבית פטור ואם הוזקה בהן בעל הקדרות חייב ואם הכניס ברשות בעל החצר חייב

    If when the guy brings it birshus the ba'al hachatzer is chayav then obviously when the ba'al hachatzer's own stuff gets damaged it's his own loss. L'mayseh I still hear a shaila because it could be if the bag was closed the ba'al ha-car isn't expected to assume it's something like chicken that can easily spoil. Or maybe it's his achrayus to know, especially on Friday when everyone has chicken in their bags. Good shaila.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  5. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    BTW I love these kinds of threads. Shkoyach.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  6. pcoz
    Member

    The mishnah has 2 cases - hiniach bireshus and hinicah shelo bireshus. In the first case I am patur for the hezek caused to the baal hachatzer's animal, in the second case I am chayav.

    In this case, I was meniach bireshus but it was understood this was for a limited time only. The hezek was caused becuase I left it beyond the permitted time.

    In the case of the mishna, of hiniach shelo bireshus, my hanacha is the kerias bor - so is the maaseh mazik. In a case where I was machnis bireshus and the hezek only could have come about becuase the object was left there for too long, is there a petur that there is no maaseh mazik?

    My initial hanachah was not a maaseh mazik because it was bireshus, and just leaving it there longer is not a maaseh.

    Vos sogst du?

    Posted 11 months ago #
  7. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    I hear what you're tayneh-ing. I feel like this prat is mefurash somewhere, I'm just not holding in the sugya. It's a good klerr. Anyone here holding in Bava Kama? If I have time later I'll see if I can find something.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  8. ItcheSrulik
    Formerly college sheigetz. Now ger.

    I'm holding in Yoma so this is entirely off the top of my head.

    I would say that he has an achrayus to get his stuff out of the chatzer by the agreed upon time and by leaving them there he is a פושע and is therefore chayav just like avno sakino umas'a'o. (the dikduk nazi in me cringes every time I talk yeshivish but who cares)

    Posted 11 months ago #
  9. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    Itche - But pcoz taynehs good that by avno sakino umasa'o you fohrt (at least) have a ma'aseh to attach to the hezek that ultimately occurred as a result, mah she-ein ken over here the ma'aseh was done birshus.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  10. pcoz
    Member

    In your comparison to avno sakino umasao do you mean to say that seeing as the av here seems to be esh which always has a koach acher meurav bo therefore there is no requirement to have an original maaseh mazik?

    i.e. would you agree that for other other avos nezikin you do need a maaseh hezek for a shomer to be chayav?

    Posted 11 months ago #
  11. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    seeing as the av here seems to be esh which always has a koach acher meurav bo therefore there is no requirement to have an original maaseh mazik?

    I don't think that's mistavra.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  12. ItcheSrulik
    Formerly college sheigetz. Now ger.

    pcoz: Yes, that was what I meant. Now that I think of it, though, you can also make him chayav for abusing the terms of the pikadon because by leaving his stuff there beyond the time he has reshus for, he is being שולח יד במלכת רעהו.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  13. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    I mamish don't chap why you are considering the car a pikadon. You let me leave something in your house, now I've borrowed your house?

    Posted 11 months ago #
  14. pcoz
    Member

    yitay...: Yes, I have accepted shemirah on your house - that my pit bull terrier won't rip it apart while I leave it there.

    I have another taynah / chiluk though;
    As Reb Chaim would say - ah chicken iz nicht a mazik!

    Hesber - I don't think anyone would consider a chicken as a davar hamazik. In the case of avno sakino umasao - it is obviously a potential danger to leave something on the edge of a roof where it can fall. When it falls - that item causes damage.

    Chickens don't cause damage, only rotten chickens do. A rotten chicken iz ah shinuy maaseh from the original fresh edible chicken. Therefore there is less of a maaseh mazik here than in the case of avno...

    Posted 11 months ago #
  15. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    pcoz - Come on - for that matter the whole world is a pikadon to you the moment you buy a shor, because you're accepting to be shomer it from being mazik the rest of the world. Sorry, sounds a bit farfetched (my fave yidish word). Pashut pshat is you give me reshus to put my thing in your car, finished. I'm not borrowing anything.

    As for your second chiluk, the koach to get spoiled is inherent in every chicken, so I'm not maskim to the chiluk. Besides it's klohr that R' Eliyashiv didn't hold from this chiluk because he was mashveh it to avno sakino umasa'o.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  16. pcoz
    Member

    Var vost host du nicht dahert meine gevaltige chiluk? Ich geh uber chazeren noch a mohl;
    Ah chicken heist nicht a mazik!

    Of course scientifically a chicken has the capacity to be spoilt, but this is a farout and extremely odd case that this propensity should cause hezek. Therefore it is not classified as a davar hamazik therefore leaving it in a car is not a maaseh hezek.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  17. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    Now your chiluk is getting balebatish...
    Is it a ruach metzuya or not? That's all that should matter.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  18. pcoz
    Member

    yitay.. hageh atzmechah!
    If you say that the chiyuv for nizakin is that you are automatically chayav on all nizakin that your mazik does - just that shemirah paters you from the hezek (chakirah in rashi of kol shechavti bishemirasoh...b"k 9b) ... would you say when you buy a chicken from the butcher's you have been koneh a mazik and you will be chayav in its smelly nizakin unless you are shomer it?

    Avadah and avadah nicht!

    If it gets smelly, then sure it's a mazik, but before that it's schnitzel and all good things

    Posted 11 months ago #
  19. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    Nu nu. I didn't learn like that in Rashi anyway. Dachtzich Rashi means if I am responsible for watching it memeila I am the gorem of the damage by not watching it. Bichlal I learned the avos nezikin as klalim of when one is chayav as a gorem. I'm not holding but when I was that's what I thought the most glatte pshat was. Hey, are you in Lakewood? Maybe we could chazer Bava Kama together.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  20. ItcheSrulik
    Formerly college sheigetz. Now ger.

    yitay: fohrt means "still" not "at least"

    pcoz: A chicken is uhlul to get spoiled. If we're still arguing from avney sakiney u'masao spoilage is definitely a ruach metzuya. If you call the chatzer a pikadon, which dachtzich mir it should be, you are chayav for ruining it. M'manafshach.
    I think you can actually shoehorn the chicken into all 4 of the avos.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  21. BTGuy
    Member

    I agree with Rabbi Elyashivs ruling and would like to add:

    And if the passenger left a bag of money in the car, to what extent should the car owner have any connection after a weekend? I say zero. So anything monies needing to be spent having anything to do with the chicken, is totally in the domain of the passenger.

    Hopefully, the passenger agreed to pay for the cleaning, anyway.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  22. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    Itche - Takeh, although it's fohrt used as 'at least' in the context of what I was saying. Anyway in my defense I was high when I wrote that. Also your yeshivish is very good for a sheigitz.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  23. pcoz
    Member

    Csar: In either case, asking a shaila isn't sufficient.

    Agreed. I am highly allergic to people asking rabbonim dinei mamonos queries that involve them.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  24. ItcheSrulik
    Formerly college sheigetz. Now ger.

    yitay: I'm a yeshiva educated shaigitz.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  25. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    lol, i could say the same

    Posted 11 months ago #
  26. ItcheSrulik
    Formerly college sheigetz. Now ger.

    I thought you said you were yeshivish.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  27. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    I am a yeshivishe sheigitz.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  28. ItcheSrulik
    Formerly college sheigetz. Now ger.

    But if you're yeshivish i.e. you have the look you are by definition not a shaigetz no matter what you do.

    Posted 11 months ago #

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