Childfree Zones on Airplanes

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  • #619128
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Are airplane childfree zones halachically permitted?

    #1213147
    Joseph
    Participant

    They don’t violate the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach.

    But they are a result of a sick anti-children culture.

    #1213148
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Do they exist?

    #1213149
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Joseph…………..

    why must it be expressed as ANTI-CHILDREN

    It could also be expressed as PRO-ADULT or PRO-WORKING TRAVELER

    Two years ago I was flying back and forth to Florida 3 days a week for 4 weeks for a trial involving one of my trust clients and his holdings there.

    I needed the ability to work on the planes. The client was paying big money for first class seats and my time so that I could work in transit (it was tax season so I could not stay in Florida for a month).

    Most of the time I was able to work, but on three flights the poor behavior of young children, not well supervised by their parent(s), did not allow concentration. If an airline had an ADULT ONLY zone, even at a premium I’d have booked it.

    Since then if I MUST work on a flight en route to a trial/client I use NetJets. The client pays and I am productive. It doesn’t make sense for a client to be paying a billing rate of $500+ per hour plus the cost of a first class ticket and have me unable to work.

    If flying on a pleasure trip I don’t mind children nearby, as long as one is not kicking the back of my seat.

    #1213150
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    CTL – I hear your point, but I think that:

    1. They should call them adult-only flights as you did, so that no discrimination against children is implied.

    2. They should make sure that the vast majority of flights are not child-free. Or at least they should make sure that there are enough regular flights available for those that are travelling with children.

    3. It should only be babies and very young children who are not allowed on these flights.

    #1213151
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t find this offensive

    #1213152
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Parents three rows to my left changed the diaper in the cabin.

    #1213153
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Yes, some airlines outside of the US have them.

    Back in Oct. 2016, Fortune announced that IndiGo airlines made a childfree zone.

    In 2013, Scoot Airlines created its ScootinSilence upgrade, preventing children under the age of 12 from sitting in particular rows.

    Malaysia Airlines banned infants from first class flights in 2011 and introduced kid-free zones in economy a few years later. AirAsia utimately followed suit.” (Fortune)

    #1213154
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    On the other hand, it’s not like they could have changed their baby’s diaper in the restroom.

    Doesn’t it end up discriminating against mothers and children?

    What about children who travel alone and have an escort guide them in the airport?

    If you have a ten-year old child flying alone, and can afford first class, wouldn’t you want your child to be up front with more attention to his/her comfort and needs than squashed in economy?

    Having blanket rules adds barriers to parents who already have to juggle so much.

    #1213155
    Meno
    Participant

    Could someone explain how this works?

    I’ve never heard of it.

    #1213156
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    lilmod

    I’m not calling for adult only flights, just quiet work sections on the planes. In the late 70s and early 80s I was commuting NY-Paris every other week while working for a major multinational corp. I regularly flew TWA (OBM) who used Boeing 747s on the route. The upper deck was First Class and for work and/or sleep. They did not show a movie and did not book any chlidren in that area. It was not a published rule, but done by considerate corporate planners. When a company such as the one I worked for booked 6 First Class tickets 26 Sunday Nights of the year on the same flight it’s amazing what the airlines would do to accommodate us.

    #1213157
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “If you have a ten-year old child flying alone, and can afford first class, wouldn’t you want your child to be up front with more attention to his/her comfort and needs than squashed in economy?”

    On my flight to Israel, I ended up next to a Frum 11 year old girl who was flying by herself for the first time. I think she was really lucky that she ended up next to a nice Frum girl like me who was willing to look out for her and shmooze with her.

    And she wasn’t squashed at all since there was an empty seat between us – well at least there was until she invited the new friend she made on the plane to sit there (something else that would have been less likely to happen on economy).

    I don’t think it’s so bad for a child to travel economy – why should they get spoiled at such a young age?

    #1213158
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    When I was young, I remember some air trips where the airline provided small boxes of crayons and coloring books full of pictures featuring the airline. It was wins all around. I was kept entertained, neighboring passengers enjoyed the quiet, and to this day I have positive feelings towards that particular airline’s brand. I don’t know if any airline does that anymore.

    Parents must prepare for air trips – have quiet entertainment and snacks ready and easily accessible even when the seatbelt light is on. If possible, a hungry and tired infant is a good thing at the beginning of a flight, because the feeding helps with the cabin pressure changes, and in-flight napping is more likely.

    I understand the desire for “adult passenger only” sections on airplanes. With the squished seating now common in coach, people are in closer quarters than is comfortable, and some people need to work or rest during the flight. Given the recent trend among airlines to nickel and dime passengers for the last scraps of human decency left in the airplane’s cabin, maybe passengers can be offered an adult-only section fee.

    #1213159
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Here’s a problem. Let’s say the children free zone is row 10 to 20. If your sitting in row 20, you’ll still hear a screaming child in row 21

    #1213160
    Meno
    Participant

    Do you have to pay extra to sit in a child-free zone?

    Do you have to pay extra to not sit in a child-free zone?

    If you’re sitting in a zone that’s not child-free do you have to adopt a child for the duration of the flight?

    I still don’t get how this works…

    #1213161
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    lesschumras…

    you are correct, but I would do everything possible not to be in rows 15-20.

    My seat of choice is 2A

    #1213162
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    lesschumras,

    Here’s a problem. Let’s say the children free zone is row 10 to 20. If your sitting in row 20, you’ll still hear a screaming child in row 21

    $15 fee to guarantee that your row is adult only and put that pay bracket on the border rows. $30 fee to guarantee that your row and the rows in front of and behind you are adult only. Put that pay bracket in the rows between the border rows.

    C’mon, think like an airline exec! 🙂

    #1213163
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Meno – there’s a section of the plane that is adult-only. The airline people do not give any of those seats to children below a certain age. Any adult who requests a seat in that section is given a seat in that section. I assume they usually have to pay extra, but maybe not.

    All adults who don’t specifically request a seat in that section are not given a seat in that section (unless there are extra seats in that section and not enough seats in the regular section and they are not travelling with children).

    That is how I understand it, but I guess those who know more about it can correct me if I’m wrong.

    #1213164
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Aren’t there usually sections on the plane with bathrooms in between? So as long as there are no children on your section, it shouldn’t be such a big deal.

    Also, maybe the back and/or front rows can be reserved for adults who did not request to be in the adult-free zone.

    #1213165
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    One great idea – fly in the front (cockpit). I did, several times!! (t’was only a six-seater)

    #1213166
    Meno
    Participant

    LU,

    Thank you for the explanation.

    As far as I can see, the only downside to this would be that there are fewer seats available for people with children. As it is, a vast majority of people who fly don’t fly with small children, so it shouldn’t be a big deal to just consolidate those who do. Doesn’t seem like a big deal. Am I missing something?

    #1213167
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    does that mean you were the pilot?

    #1213168
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    For the while, yeah. Most exhilarating. So much better than those clumsy jets. You’re in charge, you’re doing the thing instead of hydraulics and machinery, the feel is so much more real!!! Try it!

    #1213169
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    lilmod………..

    On a number of American ‘puddle jumpers’ flying short distances between small airports the planes do not have a separate cockpit and fly with only a pilot. I was able to sit in the co-pilot seat a number of times on such flights 20-40 years ago.

    #1213171
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Meno – “As it is, a vast majority of people who fly don’t fly with small children, so it shouldn’t be a big deal to just consolidate those who do.”

    I’m not sure what your point is. Are you saying that it shouldn’t be necessary to have an adult-only section since they can just consolidate those who are flying without kids? If that is what you are saying, that is exactly what the point of adult-only sections is – to consolidate those who are flying without kids. But they are only going to do it if the people ask. Why should they do it unless they are specifically asked to do so (and probably paid as well)?

    Or when you wrote, “it shouldn’t be a big deal to consolidate those who do” are you talking about the adult-only sections and saying that you don’t think it’s a big deal and you don’t understand why we are having a discussion about it?

    If that’s your point, I don’t think that anyone here thought it’s a big deal. Joseph thought it’s discriminating to children, so others explained why they don’t think so. And then posters were just writing about how and where it’s done.

    And then LC brought up one practical problem, and CTL and others gave solutions to that problem.

    The only thing that’s “a big deal” about it is that it seems to be a newish concept and one that most airlines haven’t thought about doing until recently. I guess it just never occurred to them.

    It’s funny because just last Shabbos I was at someone’s house and someone was talking about kids on planes and I asked if there is such a concept as a child-free section, but I had never actually heard of such a thing before, and then, punkt 2 days later, someone starts a thread about it..

    I wonder why no one ever thought about it before. Maybe because it sounds discriminatory. Or maybe because it’s only really necessary on international flights, and the seating arrangements on those can be so complicated as it is.

    I remember one El Al flight I was on. I was in a row with 3 seats, the middle seat was empty, and there was an 18 year old boy on his way to Yeshiva in the other seat. A Frum man came over and asked him if he could switch seats. It had something to do with the fact that he was traveling with his little kid but hadn’t been able to reserve 2 seats next to each other, so he figured that he would wait until he got into the plane and try to find a way to rearrange seats.

    The boy said “no”, but felt uncomfortable about it, and after the man left, he explained to me that he had already changed seats once even though it meant giving up a window seat (or maybe it was an aisle seat?). So I was like “but what are they going to do?” And he said, “don’t worry; the plane can’t take off until everyone has a seat.”

    End of story – the plane took off about an hour late. There were a ton of kids on the flight, and it seems like there were many people in the same situation.

    Another time, when I was flying between EY and the US, there was an untzniusly dressed lady sitting nearby, and I saw that the Frum man walking down the aisle who was supposed to sit next to her didn’t look so comfortable, so I offered to switch seats. This also entailed my asking the girl who had been sitting next to me to switch seats with her father.

    The point is that when you have all these other seating complications to deal with, I could see why adding in another factor could get really complicated.

    #1213172
    Meno
    Participant

    “But they are a result of a sick anti-children culture.”

    Is that really so?

    I don’t enjoy hearing other people’s children crying (and I wouldn’t expect them to enjoy hearing my kids cry).

    Does that make me “anti-children”?

    #1213173
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Maybe it’s also important for mothers whose babies are still nursing. Still if they have an adult section then the children’s section also ought to be accommodating with space for changing diapers and etc.

    Though it’s also expecting parents to get along with each other. And their children to handle sitting next to each other.

    What happens when Shmuley Sholom’s mom has snacks and Tiferet Rishon, someone else’s child, finished hers already?

    It’s not like they are at a friends house and now you expect children to mind their own business for so many hours in such close proximity to distractions.

    Then again, I remember those crayons. We still had privacy and I probably slept a lot on the plane anyway.

    #1213174
    lesschumras
    Participant

    How is a child free zone a potential halachic issue?

    #1213175
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    I don’t know. That is why I asked.

    Why? I don’t. Maybe…

    Because it can break up families. It segregates generations. I don’t know. Putting women in the back of a bus is a halachic issue.

    What about men davening? Or being around excrement? Maybe there are halachic grounds where it is preferable.

    Maybe the other way. Maybe rabbonim say it is wrong to put business before family. I don’t know.

    Thank you

    #1213176
    Meno
    Participant

    “Because it can break up families”

    How?

    “Putting women in the back of a bus is a halachic issue.”

    Is it?

    #1213177
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    1) With one parent going in the quiet adult section.

    2) Isn’t it? Wasn’t it? Isn’t it?

    #1213178
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    So what did you mean, Meno?

    #1213179
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB -“Maybe it’s also important for mothers whose babies are still nursing.”

    How does it help them if there is an adult-only zone? The only thing that would help them is a women’s only zone. Personally, I would like that.

    “Still if they have an adult section then the children’s section also ought to be accommodating with space for changing diapers and etc.

    Though it’s also expecting parents to get along with each other. And their children to handle sitting next to each other.”

    There wouldn’t be a child-only zone. There would be two sections of the plane:

    1. For those adults who specifically request to be in an adult-only zone. Any adult travelling with a child can not sit here.

    2. For everyone else on the plane. This includes children, adults travelling with children, and adults who did not specifically request to be in an adult-only zone. This would include most of the people of the plane, especially since the adult-only zone probably costs more.

    So I don’t see what the problem is. There are probably only a few people who specifically request and pay for the adult -only zone.

    (Oh, was that what you meant, Meno? You were responding to the OP? The conversation at that point had kind of branched out, so I forgot about her question.).

    I know that when you reserve a ticket, you can request to sit next to another female (or male, as the case may be), so maybe you can also request to be placed next to adults. Has anyone ever tried that?

    #1213180
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB: “With one parent going in the quiet adult section.”

    It’s only adults who are travelling without children who would request the adult-only section.

    If anyone uses it your way, they clearly have shalom bayis issues to begin with. Or else, one parent just really needs to get sleep more than the other for whatever reason. Maybe, he (or she) is going on a speaking tour when they land, or maybe he (or she) has CFS, etc. But in that case, presumably this is something they discussed and decided was necessary. And if not, they need marriage therapy anyhow.

    #1213181
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB: “2) Isn’t it? Wasn’t it? Isn’t it?”

    I think Meno’s point is that it’s not technically assur for men and women to sit in the same section of the bus.

    However, there are halachic problems that can arise if you don’t have separate seating. For one thing, there are women who don’t dress tzniusly. And for another, if you are a girl, you don’t want a strange man sitting next to you on a bus, v’hamaivin yavin. And it’s not always so easy to just stand up when someone does sit next to you.

    #1213182
    Meno
    Participant

    Oh I see. I misunderstood what LB was saying.

    She said: “Putting women in the back of a bus is a halachic issue”

    I usually interpret the word “issue” to mean “problem”. But that’s my mistake.

    #1213183
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    oh, I thought you were being overly-liberal since it doesn’t technically say anywhere that women and men have to sit on different parts of the bus.

    I’m glad to hear you weren’t.

    Personally, I wouldn’t have phrased it this way: “putting women in the back of the bus”. I would have said something like “having separate sections on the bus for men and women”.

    Of course, I know what you mean,LB, but others reading this who are not familiar with our society could easily misinterpret.

    #1213184
    lesschumras
    Participant

    I’ve been asked twice to change seats on El AL. I had two requirements. 1. The seat also had to be an aisle seat 2. The seat could not be near a child. In one case I switched, in the other I didn’t

    #1213185
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    That’s reasonable if you really felt those things were important to you. With all the people on the plane, they should be able to find someone willing to switch.

    #1213186
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Parents three rows to my left changed the diaper in the cabin.

    I’m ok with that.

    #1213187
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Thanks LU and Meno for the feedback… just meant that the separate section on the bus, for women, is halachically-based.

    I meant the literal back of bus because that section is away from men’s line of vision. Which makes sense in terms of traveling and the seats facing forward. Yet I see how that sentence was very charged, and that’s my bad in constructing it so cliche.

    I know someone who works for El Al. I want to ask her if they are trained on how to ask customers to change seats due to religious reasons [didn’t say “issues” this time :)].

    #1213188
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    When you reserve the seat in the first place, you can request to be placed next to someone of the same gender.

    Once you are on the plane, it doesn’t sound right to me to expect someone from ElAl to ask someone to switch for you, since it’s not assur halachically, and you know when you get on the plane that this can happen.

    Also, unlike busses, I don’t think it’s dangerous for a woman to have a man sit next to her on a plane; it’s just uncomfortable.

    I would have no problem asking someone to switch, but it doesn’t sound right to me to have an ElAl person ask them, since it’s not really a religious issue since it’s not assur halachically, and it’s not fair to make someone feel like they HAVE to switch (which is how they would feel if asked by an ElAl person).

    That is my opinion, but I could be wrong.

    #1213189
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    You can reserve a seat next to someone of the same gender? Really? I didn’t know that was possible. I’m guessing this is an El Al thing?

    Because otherwise, I change my seats online. Sometimes change it during online check-in. Sometimes I go to that flight seat website that shows the good seats, and has reviews from passengers.

    For example, “The airflow nozzle on 32B on Airbus Blah Blah Blah doesn’t close up; cold air was turning me into an icicle the whole flight!!” (Passenger Doe 01.30.2017)

    or

    “People kept crowding around me in aisle seat 38F, while waiting for the restroom. Don’t take this seat! It’s in a high traffic area, the lane is more narrow at this part of the plane, and even the flight attendant cart will disturb you.” (Passenger Doe Jr. 04.14.2015)

    #1213190
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I don’t know if it’s official. It was through Frum travel agents. Yes, it was ElAl. Although if you’re working with Frum travel agents, perhaps it can be done with other airlines as well.

    #1213191
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Good to know ~ thanks LU!

    #1213192
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    actually, I think that the first time I heard of it, it may have been from a frum ElAl person at the airport who asked me if I wanted what she referred to as “mehadrin seating”. That was the first time I heard of it.

    That’s how I remember it, but does that make sense? Don’t you usually get a seat when you call and reserve your ticket? Is it possible that someone at the airport asked me what seat I wanted?

    #1213193
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    The person may have asked if you have a seat preference, such as aisle or window seat.

    #1213194
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    if I already had a seat, how could they ask about aisle or window? Anyhow, I remember her asking if I want to sit next to a lady. That’s how I knew there’s such a concept.

    Wait, I think I know what happened. She may have just checked for me and told me that I was next to a lady and then she told me that it’s possible to ask for it.

    #1213195
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Btw, I never call to reserve a ticket. Besides a random time that I bought it the same day at the airport, all other flight purchases were made online. I paid for the flight before selecting a seat.

    Sometimes even when I have a boarding pass printed out, the seat was changed by the airline when I check-in. So during check-in, I confirm that I have an aisle seat. If not, they find one for me, B”H.

    Possibly. Maybe since she knew that you are frum, making sure that you sat next to another woman was part of her job/service.

    #1213196
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    You can also ask to sit next to a 613er. Some of my (less Yeshivish) family members were shocked when I mentioned that I did that. I was shocked that they were shocked.

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