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YWN Coffee Room » Yeshiva / School / College / Education Issues

Chinuch

(30 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by Ben Levi
  • Latest reply from The little I know

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  1. Ben Levi
    Member

    In the Yeshiva World we have been extremly fortunate.
    Many of us live in a part of the United States where the complete moral fabric of society has completley decayed.
    The Family Unit exists no longer.
    The question is not if a couple will dovorce, rather it is when.
    The use of drugs is seen by many as a part of the "growing up" phase.
    The moral compass is skewed beyond belief.
    For years we managed to remain a bulwark of sanity.
    The Marital Unit remained strong. Our morals remained strong. In a society where everything revolves around "whats in it for me" we managed to construct an incredible array of volunteer chessed orginazations that are a testament to the success of the chinuch instilled in our Yeshivos and Beis Yackovs.
    Yes, we did have problems, however we are aware of the fact that this World is not the Perfect World.
    There always were problems and always will be problems.
    However B"H part of the amazing community our Gedolim, who themselves had lived through unspeakable horrors, bequethed us was a Kehilla whith amazing Rabbonim, Rabbeim, and lay people who extended themselves beyond belief for individuals both young and old going through bad times.
    B"H in our Kehillos a young woman can walk outside at night and not fear for her saftey, which is unfortunatley something which is come and gone in the heart of the most educated places in the USA.
    B"H we still have strong families with girls and boys in their early Twenties capable of marrying and starting families.
    Again something that is come and gone in the wider world.
    However we have come to take it for granted.
    We think that all of this will always be there.
    Again since we care so much for our children, we look for every possible solution that is there to help those that are struggling.
    So we have turned in many cases to "experts" who tell us about things we must rectify and then will "save" many who are struggling.
    However do we stop to think about the unintended consequences?
    Nothing that we hear is new.
    In the wider world it has not just been tried., It has been done.
    The results speak for themselves.
    Public School education used to be the "pride and joy" of the USA. A solid PS education was the begining to success.
    Sadly the PS system is now in shambles.
    A traditional family is now condsidered so yesteryear.
    Do we not realize the same could happen to us?
    Do we not realize that if we allow the people who are the teachers and brains and intellectual minds behind the "modern society" to tell us how run our communities then the very same results can happen.
    If we truly cared for our children, if we truly cared about each other does it not behoove at times to question those that come from the outside to teach us. "If you are right why has it not worked by you?
    I personally do not know any of the participants at the Weberman trial.
    I do know Hilchos Yichud wa simplementef for a reason and I hope that it was not violated in this case. I hope the allegations made are untrue. I really, really hope so. I do not want to bleive this happened.
    As a parent it is a nightmare, quite literally, as Yid to think that a small girl could have gone through such things is literally heart breaking.
    However lets stop and think a drop.
    A Parent whith a family knows that at times a hard situation can develop.
    A parent can be faced with a situation where they are unable to have a child remain in the house due to a variety of reason.
    Or a child can decide to leave on their own.
    No matter what a parents love for their child remains ingrained within them.
    It may be that this child cannot stay in the parents home but does'nt every parent hope and pray that another Person will take pity and allow this child to stay in their house so maybe the child will have a shot in a different environment?
    B"h our community has people willing to step up and play this role.
    However in the recent trial it was held against a person that they in fact gave nother child a place to sleep.
    IS that normal?
    If we will allow such a thing to pass then who will open thier doors to a wayward teen to allow them a place to stay?
    Which sane family man will allow such a risk?
    It was held against a man that he took agirl out to ice cream in a public place.
    Then which sane person will ever do such a thing.
    Then when wayward teens complain and cry that all are ignoring them will we not have ourselves to blame?
    If all it takes to lock someone up is one persons word in a case the media describe as "he said she said" then what will happen when Rabbeim and Morahs start to realize the impact of such a decision.
    Do we want to emulate society.
    Should are schools look like theirs? Should our teachers be like PS?
    Should our homes be like the wider societies?
    A prominent Rov was asked is'nt it "Dinei Nefoshos".
    The Rov ansewered.
    Of course it is it's Dinei Nefoshos on both ends but its worse then a normal case of Dinei Nefoshos.
    In a typical murder trial it is not certain someone will be killed.
    Over here it is certain in the Weberman case it was either a girl or a man.
    The Man was killed, His wife, his children seffered irreparable damage. Society may be changed.
    A few more people will not opent thier doors.
    A few more people will look the other way.
    Our children will all be worse off.
    A few more Rabbeim and a few more teachers will realize that no matter what I do.
    No matter how many nights of sleep I give up for others.
    No matter how I extend myself.
    No matter what it is that I do for other peoples children.
    When one person accuses me I will never ever earn the benefit of the doubt.
    I will never ever earn the right of people to say "We take you seriously but if you accuse someone you have to have some proof, you have to have something to back you up becuase we as a society cannot allow you to destroy a persons life based on your word against his".
    A few more Rabbeim have now realized this and a few more smart competent Rabbeim have now decided not to enter the field.
    A few more Rabbeim have now decided.
    The underpay I could put up with.
    The lack of respect I could put up with.
    But I can't risk my life and family.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. blintz-a-pie
    Member

    i've been lurking for 2 years already without joining, now i joined cuz i had to comment on ben levi's post:
    +1+1+1+1

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. Syag Lchochma
    Talmidah of Rebbe Akiva

    I will never ever earn the right of people to say "We take you seriously but if you accuse someone you have to have some proof, you have to have something to back you up becuase we as a society cannot allow you to destroy a persons life based on your word against his".
    A few more Rabbeim have now realized this and a few more smart competent Rabbeim have now decided not to enter the field.
    A few more Rabbeim have now decided.
    The underpay I could put up with.
    The lack of respect I could put up with.
    But I can't risk my life and family.

    That was very thoughtfully written, and I very respectfully disagree. That is not how it happens. Nobody gets taken down without lots of unexplained behavior accompanying the accusations, and the Rabbaim who are sincere know full well that those who behave appropriately don't end up in gihenom. I don't believe that those who REALLY do help children will worry that this could happen to them. The fear comes from those who don't want to believe that there was basis for the accusations, but if you keep your behavior above board, Sheker ain lo raglayim.

    Thank you for your sincere post. I would like to add a line or two to the middle,
    "Another abuse victim sees the cries of "sheker" and seals her pain within,
    Another little boy who is suffering sees the angery public and changes his mind about getting help,
    Another marriage is destroyed by an abuse victim who can't get close,
    And fears that honesty will label him/her a liar"

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. Ben Levi:

    Well written, and I hear the message. Just that you pointed to some of the shortcomings of today's society, without recognizing that there is so much more that is responsible for our current disastrous matzav.

    Our lifestyles are founded greatly on appearance. Yes, image. That is why we have the audacity to call our yeshivos, threaten them to withdraw our children if they allow a certain child into their yeshiva. We effectively take control by our "image" to stop others from benefitting from Torah chinuch. Our dress codes in school have departed from the mission of chinuch (though teaching tznius is a valid portion of chinuch). We demand the extremes of pomp and flair for our Roshei Yeshivos, Chassidishe Rebbes, etc. while missing the proliferation of Yir'as Shomayim that needs to surround these people. We are far more preoccupied with "Kavod Hatorah" than with insuring "No Child Left Behind".

    We deserve the grime that covers the frum community (Hashem Yishmereinu) because we empower people to do that which they cannot. Therapists without any training in the field, educators, including menahalim, rebbes, teachers, and others who have zero background in how to conduct their jobs, and countless spokespeople who may have oratory skills but lack the grounding of knowledge on their subjects. That disgrace rears its ugly head from time to time, and has done so here.

    Every rebbe needs to exercise all the good judgment to keep himself protected. Yes, we must live defensively. Not because of the rogues out there, but because of ourselves. We cannot be so utterly stupid as to point to the latest conviction, and bemoan the anti-semitism because he wears a shtreimel on Shabbos. (I don't know that anti-semitism wasn't a factor, but that's not the problem of the moment.)

    Therapists are in authoritative roles, and must recognize that they can be exposed by their clients. How do they protect themselves? By texting young women and girls during the night? By seeing female clients in their offices at hours when the only females they see are their own wives? By trashing hilchos yichud on a regular basis?

    I will not cry for those rebbeim that choose to leave the field. They will probably be happier with better incomes elsewhere. I only hope that the new crop of applicants for their positions have training in the field, and bring responsible skills to the job, not the pseudo-qualification of having learned in kollel for multiple years.

    You cry for the convict's family. Perhaps they deserve some sympathy. After all, they did not commit any crimes. But we must ask, where were his wife and children when he took young girls and women behind locked doors, in an empty building, at odd hours of the night? We ask today the questions that should have been asked years ago. How silly.

    Yes, today's world is quite different. We have issues of keeping cell phones off in shul. We have instant communication, whether by phone, text, or email. We can shop for anything, products, services, even inappropriate materials (chas veshalom) without leaving our chairs. Our children have self-esteems that are fragile, and are easily damaged. Not by having cheaper shoes than their classmates, but by the ridicule and bizarre verbal and emotional abuse that happens everyday by bullies and poorly trained mechanchim. We can no longer protect our children from knowing the latest news, whether it is the OJ trial, the Penn State scandal, or our latest community schmutz. By quite young ages, our children know much more about things than we could have. Is there a 10 year old who does not what ebay or Amazon are? (I grew up knowing that Amazon was a river in Africa.)

    We cannot legitimately compare today's world with yesteryear, and drawing comparisons is either an effort at comedy or plain foolish. We have major hurdles to overcome if we are to cope with the decadent world of today, and it is NOT the fault of how this latest affair was handled. That jury might reflect the tzuris of our time, but is not a cause for anything, besides someone who was a public menace being put away. Yes, he deserves the opportunity to appeal, though I believe his guilt. How we got here is our fault, and we need to examine ourselves before blaming others.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. Ben Levi
    Member

    Thank you to those who responed to my post.
    It was pointed out that we allow therapists with no training in their.
    Yes we do.
    That is exactly what a Mashgiach is.
    And our therapists have a track record.
    It has worked. It continues to work.
    I personally can point to countless of these "untrained Thearapists that I owe my life successes to. I know many friends that can as well.
    I personally have seen the wisdom that these "untrained" therapists use when dealing with their clients and the dedication that fills to a point where they have the ability to ignore the insult of someone who has no children, has never taught a lick telling a Father, a Grandfather and successful Mechanech of Decaeds "I know better, I'll educate you".
    Wisdom they have learnt from the Torah they have spent years studying and from their Rabbeim that learnt from their Rabbeim how to be "mechanech".
    Yes they are untrained.
    But no one ever asks the trained one's.
    Where are you coming from?
    What do you base your knowledge on?
    How come each and every place where they have have insititued "training" based on their "expertise" and "Studies" and wisdom the results have been disaster?
    No, we do not have to compare today to yesterday.
    But we can look today at what has happened to those who have decided to implement the "chinuch" strategies that come from those upon whom we are commanded "U'bchukosachem Lo Tseileichu".
    We can look at the heartbreak, the devastation, the human tragedy that exists today in the pllaces that weree chosen as the guinea pigs of these "experts"and ask ourselves.
    Is that what we want for our children?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. Syag Lchochma
    Talmidah of Rebbe Akiva

    But no one ever asks the trained one's.
    Where are you coming from?
    What do you base your knowledge on?

    I'm sorry but this also is not so. We have NEVER allowed a therapist or mashgiach of any kind near our children without asking this question and more regarding their hashkafos and tmimus.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. Ben Levi
    Member

    SL
    I am not refering to individuals.
    I am referring to policies.
    And I am also refferring to the entire concept of seeking and bringing in certain "professions" to our "camp.
    Since the wholesale adoption of certain philosophies and practioners of those philosophies has taken place are we better or worse off.
    Is the Sholom Bayis in our communities better or worse then Fifteen years ago?
    Is the Divorce Rate higher or lower?
    Are there more children at risk or less.
    When the original JO came out discussing certain topics and offering certain solutions there were Rabbonim and Gedolim who were vehement in their opposition.
    They stated it would make more problems it would create problems and families and children would suffer.
    They were told they were "out of touch" and they had to face reality.
    Some of them have passed on, others now keep quiet.
    But 15 years later why does'nt anyone ask.
    You promised if we do certain things then we would be better of, that our children would be better off.
    How come things are now 10 times worse.
    Don't our children deserve that we at least ask the question?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Ben Levi,

    Please... add an extra line between paragraphs. It will make what you write so much easier to read.

    The Wolf

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. Showjoe
    Member

    wolfish: +1 (ben levi: please)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. Ben Levi
    Member

    SJ and WM
    Will try to, sorry.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. Ben Levi:

    There are so many reasons why things are worse now, and it has nothing to do whatsoever with the scientific training of professionals having input into the system. If we would be so silly, we could blame it on telephones. Our yeshivos and youth were better off before there were phones everywhere. Or same goes for unleaded gasoline. You're being ridiculous.

    Our yeshivos fell into the trap with so many others where we have placed academic excellence on a pedestal, as we did with "traditional values", at the expense of true chinuch. Our yeshivos have refined their approaches to discipline to be so much more powerful (actually brutal) than ever before. We can embarrass or shame any child into submission, and we can threaten with suspensions or expulsions to extort conforming behavior or tuition monies. All this is viewed as being aggressive "lichvod Hashem Yisborach" when it is actually much the opposite. We crowd children into classrooms creating group dynamics that were never modeled by our predecessors. Our skills to manage such classrooms are not archaic, they are frankly abusive and purposeless. HKB"H is uninvited.

    We have sunk to the lows of a photographic society. It's all about appearance. We cannot consider a shidduch because a sibling of a prospect has issues, or someone wears different levush. We know all about our "leaders" in their appearances in photos, at tashlich, Hoshana Rabah, burning chometz, benching Chanukah Neiros, dancing at simchos, but there is nary a glimpse of their midos tovos. All we know about these leaders is the light bulbs, crowds, and other forms of pomp that surround them. We should all be disillusioned, and we should be thirsting for the true Yir'as Hashem and Ahavas Hashem that should be our basic source of energy. No, technology did not take that away, nor did the college education of the many professionals we have in the fields of medicine, law, mental health, accounting and business, education, and other sciences. We urbanized our lifestyles into patterns that would not be recognizable to the gedolim of earlier generations.

    Things are worse, because we are worse. And, Ben Levi, join the rest of us in accepting responsibility for your contribution. Now, let's re-examine where we should be heading, and let's rechart our life course to go there. השיבנו ה' אליך ונשובה. We cannot even be serious in this venture if we stay glued to the external perceptions, believe that someone who looks "the part" is necessarily so, if we allow our yeshivos and schools to run "compliance programs" as priorities to full rounded education of Torah, its values, and the expectations for real Yiddishkeit. We cannot expect marriages to succeed if we make so many other activities more important than a couple growing together. Does it really matter to which parents the young couple goes for Yom Tov? We cannot expect our children to learn honesty about money and other matters if we conceal, lie, and cheat in our personal affairs and our mosdos. No, it's not the influence of the educated social worker who consults to the yeshiva. It's more likely the administrators. The incidence of abuse is not the result of consulting professionals, but the blind assumptions that anyone in a position of power has clean hands. What happened to supervision and accountability?

    Ben Levi, you ask good questions, but are seriously mistaken in your assumptions of the answers. I just outlined a list of stuff here. There is a serious need to change our foundations, not to modernize, but to return to the chinuch approach that our zaides used. If anything, professionals have looked to help filter the maladaptations of the system to the challenges of the day. It is not about modern ideas, it is about true Torah chinuch, which is harder than ever to find today, anywhere, Chassidish, Litvish, Sefardic, MO, and whatever else.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. Ben Levi
    Member

    The Little that I know
    So lets pay attention to what you write.
    Outside appearances are the problem?

    Are you aware of the factr that the most stringent Chasunah Taknos were enacted successfuly by the Satmar Community to counter exactly what you wrote about?

    Hows about the 5TJT consult with them how to successfully implement what was considered impossible?

    Oh on including every child, do you know how Satmar runs their school system if someone does not have money to pay tuition ask a member of the Chassiudus how much they are asked to pay.

    You'll be surprised at the ansewer. It's about 15,000 dollars less thaen in the Five Towns.

    Real Chinuch?
    How come Stamar has managed to build a huge network of Bikur Cholim completley staffed by the women that are products of their school system.

    All volunteers, waiting in line for the chance to do chessed for Klal Yisroel.

    And don't tell me about others.
    B"H all of Klal Yisroel does chesed.

    But Satmar takes it to another level and we all learnt from Satmar.
    I am litvish and I know it.

    And the people growing up to take roles in the tremendous chesed that defines that community have gone through their school system that infused their very essence with a snse of achruyus and
    caring to all of Klal Yisroel.

    Real caring.

    Not speeches about caring.

    I lived it when I was hospitalized and saw for weeks on end the work they do that frankly I would not have believed if I had not seen it with my own eyes.

    And no they don't publicize it and they don't want thanks.

    One of the Satmar Women replied when I said that you.
    In the zchus of the Chesed may Klal Yisroel not need it anymore.

    The chinuch that produced the hundreds of women that form the backbone of that orginazation is failed?

    How about the 5TJT ask them why the girls comning out of their school system are so different then the ones coming out of the Five Towns?

    And don't ansewer with the minority.
    You and I both know there are exceptions.

    I chose to focus on the 90%.
    You can focus a=on the 10%.

    The educated Social Workers who consult?

    Educated by whom?

    Frum Ehrileche people or irrelegious proffesors that are for the the most part athiests?

    We need to change our foundations to listen to them?
    W
    here are there schools?

    Where are the successful marriages in their communities.

    Whats the Divorce rate in thier communities.

    Whats the birthrate in their communities?

    How many children in thier communities grew up in two parent
    households?
    How many children in America grow up in single parent hpousholds now?

    What is it about 70%?

    They should teach Satmar about chinuch? About Marriage?

    If we needed lessons about divorce we could learn from them, after all they do have experience.

    And how to care for cats and dogs they could teach us also.

    But about raising kids Al Tahros HaKodesh.
    I'll trust the people that dedicate their lives to Torah first.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. zahavasdad
    zahavasoneluckygirl

    Do you know the reason we dont we Teffillin all day?

    Its actually the Halacha to wear them all day.

    A stranger walked into a strange town with alot of money. He needed to store the money with someone and he saw a jew wearing Teffillin (It was the Afternoon). He figured he must be a very Ehrich a Yid and could trust him. When the man came back to get his money The person he entrusted it to denied ever receiving it.

    He went to the Rav of the town to tell the story and somehow they got the man to admit he had the money.

    Afterwards a Tachana was implemented forbidding wearing Tfillin all day for fear of fooling people that they are more frum than they appear.

    You can be the biggest Baal Chessed, but if you are Mechalel Shabbos, it doesnt matter and if you commit the greatest Chilul Hashem in society. All your previous good is being thrown down the drain

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. Ben Levi
    Member

    ZDad,
    Would you mind showing a source for that?

    Somehow I never heard it.

    And Yes you are 100% percent if one is Mechallel Shabbos then one is oiver on Chillul Shabbos.

    In acuality to say that persons Chesed does not "count" is wrong.
    Each and every Mitzva that someone does "counts".

    And they recieve reward for it.

    Just as each and every aviera "counts". And one is punished for it.

    As for Chillul Hashem.

    You seem to misunderstand, so i'll explain it.

    No one is justifying the actions this man is accussed of what so ever.

    Period.

    That means No One.

    However what his community is saying.

    Including many women who were counseled by him and did allow thier names to be used is that he is innocent.

    Let me repeat it nice and slow.

    They are saying he is innocent.

    Now since the numerous secular sources brought their entire investigative resources to bear.

    An entire trial was conducted.

    And not one shred of evidence was produced other then this girls word against his.

    Combined with the fact that as far as I am aware her Boyfriend at the time is willing to testify that she said she would make the story up, a fact no one is disputing, (though for some weird reason he was not allowed to testify.

    I find zero reason to believe that this Man is guilty.

    And no two people saying all of a sudden that they were approached by others who are unwilling to come forth and state thier accustations does not constitute "proof".

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. Sorry - I don't know how to change fonts to display the dialogue with Ben Levi.

    Outside appearances are the problem?

    Absolutely yes. I am in no way singling out Satmar, and nothing I said was intended as a commentary to the recent court conviction.

    Are you aware of the fact that the most stringent Chasunah Taknos were enacted successfully by the Satmar Community to counter exactly what you wrote about?

    Yes. I repeat, this was about the frum community in general, not singling out Satmar. Every single group has its outstanding features.

    How about the 5TJT consult with them how to successfully implement what was considered impossible?

    I have no clue what this consult was, and it would be dishonest to comment on it.

    Oh on including every child, do you know how Satmar runs their school system if someone does not have money to pay tuition ask a member of the Chassidus how much they are asked to pay.

    That may well be unique. Ask anywhere else. Torah Umesorah is addressing this issue, as expelling due to unpaid tuition is commonplace in the new York area. There are hundreds of kids without yeshivas and schools, and money is one aspect of the problem.

    You'll be surprised at the answer. It's about 15,000 dollars less than in the Five Towns.

    Real Chinuch?

    How come Satmar has managed to build a huge network of Bikur Cholim completly staffed by the women that are products of their school system. All volunteers, waiting in line for the chance to do chessed for Klal Yisroel.

    Fabulous. May they all be blessed. There’s horrific fallout even in Satmar. Why?

    And don't tell me about others.

    B"H all of Klal Yisroel does chessed. Yes. And yes again. We give greatly of ourselves, financially and otherwise. Mi ke’amcho Yisroel.

    But Satmar takes it to another level and we all learnt from Satmar.
    I am litvish and I know it.
    And the people growing up to take roles in the tremendous chesed that defines that community have gone through their school system that infused their very essence with a sense of achrayus and caring to all of Klal Yisroel. Real caring. Not speeches about caring. I lived it when I was hospitalized and saw for weeks on end the work they do that frankly I would not have believed if I had not seen it with my own eyes. And no they don't publicize it and they don't want thanks. One of the Satmar Women replied when I said that you. In the zchus of the Chesed may Klal Yisroel not need it anymore.
    The chinuch that produced the hundreds of women that form the backbone of that organization is failed?

    There are positives in Satmar and in every other community. It would be foolish to deny that. Reb Yoel ZT”L infused many important things into his chassidus. Many of his seeds still blossom today. Some have been abandoned. It is foolish to ignore the shortcomings just because one has maalos. No one could ever engage in tikun hamidos if one would rest with knowing that other positives exist. Do you not treat a sore throat just because the left foot is healthy?

    How about the 5TJT ask them why the girls coming out of their school system are so different than the ones coming out of the Five Towns? And don't answer with the minority. You and I both know there are exceptions. I chose to focus on the 90%. You can focus on the 10%.

    That’s correct. I am not advocating abandoning what works. I seek to identify what is broken and to fix it. And your numbers of 90-10 are overly optimistic.

    The educated Social Workers who consult? Educated by whom? Frum Ehrileche people or irreligious professors that are for the most part atheists?

    Nice accusation here. You have no idea about what is taught in social work school or in the other mental health professions. Same goes for education. Why don’t you attend a conference like Nefesh International (in February ’13 in Brooklyn) where you can rub elbows with several hundred professionals who are Yirai Shomayim, all enveloped in Torah and Mitzvos, who come to learn from each other and from gedolei Torah. Today, many of the newer professionals were educated in schools that were built more recently, with frum staff and frum hashkafos. Why are you so determined to believe that anyone with a letter or two after their name is an apikores?

    We need to change our foundations to listen to them? Where are their schools? Where are the successful marriages in their communities. What’s the divorce rate in their communities? What’s the birthrate in their communities? How many children in their communities grew up in two parent households? How many children in America grow up in single parent households now? What is it about 70%?

    See response above.

    They should teach Satmar about chinuch? About Marriage?

    Actually, yes. Today’s children are nothing like a generation or two ago, and everyone needs to know what actually works. Same for marriage. No, I don’t accept goyishe hashkafos. But the ones that circulate among huge portions of the frum oilem today are not exactly Torah consistent either.

    If we needed lessons about divorce we could learn from them, after all they do have experience.

    Funny. The average Jewish divorce is more about cruelty than terminating a failed marriage. The lawyers make out like bandits. The frummest look for the shyster lawyers and toanim. The rabbonim are snookered into taking a side, and participating in destroying another person and family. We need to learn a lot.
    And how to care for cats and dogs they could teach us also.

    But about raising kids Al Tahras HaKodesh. I'll trust the people that dedicate their lives to Torah first.

    Let’s include the rabbonim, whose knowledge about the facts on the ground varies between poor to none. Then let’s add the askanim, many of whom are of questionable integrity (I have many good ones as friends). Then I’ll look for some of the professionals who are Torah dedicated and practicing, and discover that they operate well within the guidance of gedolei Yisroel and constantly turn to them for direction. Then I’m onto something.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. zahavasdad
    zahavasoneluckygirl

    I am sure Hashem is getting a lot of Nachas from the Satmar community this week

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. Ben Levi
    Member

    Zdad
    I would think that Hashem is having Nachas.

    The Torah says one cannot believe Motzi Shem Rah and Satmar is simply stating we do not believe Motzi Shem especially after an exhaustiv investigation. Could turn up no proof what so ever.

    TLIK

    You are 100% right Satmar is unique in the way the schools are run and we all should learn from them and yes there are unique in their Chasunah Takonos we have tried to learn from them and failed.

    The point is that to state that Satmar does not fix whats wrong is ridiculus.

    They have demonstrated time and time again that they do learn from what is wrong and they do fix it.

    Meaning they fix it.

    Instead of having an endless crisis.

    They just have to feel there is an actual proven crisis that need a real solution and the solution must be better then what exists.

    The 90% stat btw sould be quite on target.

    I was in the school system before the famous JO on KIds-at-Risk came out.

    And yes 10% of children were for one reason or another "falling through the cracks".

    If in the ensuing years when virtually all of the JO's recommendations at the time were implemented things have gotten worse.

    Should'nt we be asking those that wrote in that issue and it's follow up.

    "If you said things would get better if we listened to you then why are we worse off now?
    And if you were wrong then, why should we believe you now?"

    Furthermore to state that I do not know what is taught in the Mental Health field is quite ignorant.

    I have close reletives with "letters" after their names and have actually read textbooks on the subject in question.

    As for Rabbonim that don't know "facts on the ground".

    Well if they get heavily involved in something with out knowing facts on the ground then they are incompetent.

    Please make sure that if you ever need a Rov you find a competent one.

    B"H in my Kehilla as well as most Kehillos that I know of that chose their Rov they found one that is quite competent.

    Of course there are those out there that are not so.

    Always been like that always will be.

    Incidently considering 50% of couples that go for "marital counseling" by Mental Health proffesionals wind up divorced I would think that means a good portion of the proffesionals are incompetent.

    (The stat is qouted in the intro to 10 minutes a day to a better marriage by Rabbi Meir Wikler who Rabbi Chaim Pinchos Sheinberg zt"l says in his Hakdumah is to be relied on "depite the fact that he is proffesional, some haskomah)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Will try to, sorry.

    Thank you. That's *much* better.

    The Wolf

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Incidently considering 50% of couples that go for "marital counseling" by Mental Health proffesionals wind up divorced I would think that means a good portion of the proffesionals are incompetent.

    Not necessarily so. Assuming the statistic is correct, it still doesn't prove your point because you're ignoring all the other variables.

    The population of couples who go for marital therapy are not randomly selected. Couples in healthy relationships tend to not go to therapy. The ones who do go (generally speaking) are the ones that have problems in the marriage. So, the group that goes to therapists are a self-selected group with a bias toward marriages that already have issues.

    Imagine, if you will, a doctor that deals with only high-risk patients that have a high (over 50%) mortality rate. If only 50% of his patients live, then the doctor is doing a *good* job -- not a bad one. You can't compare his patients' mortality to the general population and say "oh, he must be killin' 'em!"

    The Wolf

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. Ben Levi
    Member

    Wolf.

    You have a point, however then you have to also recognize that the family's in which Rabbonim are asked to get involved are also in the same situation,

    So if you realize that then one must ask themselves if any Rov would fail to resolve problems his Kehilla brings to him over 50% of the time do you really think he would remain a Rov?

    And again with Rabbeiom in schools and or classes within schools that are geared towards children with difficulties. If the Rebbi or School failed over 50% of the time do you really think anyone would still be sending their child thier?

    Well if someone would then I suspect the real problem is the parent not the child.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. zahavasdad
    zahavasoneluckygirl

    Yeah there are no Teens-at-risk in Satmar

    Ive never heard of any Satmars who go OTD

    And there are no Satmars at the Anti-Kiruv organization because their schools are perfect

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. Ben Levi:

    Wolf is correct. Therapists deal with the most difficult cases, many of which are on their way to divorce long before their forst session. There are many outside factors involved. What complicates the issue is that the marital therapist is only occasionally the first responder. The couple has likely turned to numerous others, and eventually they come to the therapist, with a good possibility of being misguided by these untrained do gooders. I don't have a problem with an initial approach to the Rov, but that Rov must be aware of much more than his review of his favorite mussar sefer to know the limits of what he can do to help. He must move the cases that require to the appropriate level of care. He must also refrain from the taking sides and other such interventions that jeopardize the chances of reconciliation. The Rov can handle certain things, and should have training for this. But it is a greater and more important skill for the Rov to know when to refer the couple for other interventions. Sadly, too few know what to do. Intuition is just not enough.

    The Rov with a 50% failure rate is in trouble. But having referred a consulting couple to a professional who is equipped is successful, whether the marriage is saved or not.

    Yeshivos have a difficulty with examining their product. That a talmid completes HS and a few years beis medrash, then goes to Eretz Yisroel to yeshiva there is not indicative of anything. Same goes for the bochur that comes home for Yom Tov, and spends 12 hours a day in the nearby shul or beis hamedrash learning. It points to the academics, which are not the greatest portion of the needed chinuch. If the bochur helped his parents to prepare for Yom Tov, spent menchlich time with family, and reserved a chunk of time to learn, all the while behaving with midos tovos, then we have a successful product. But no one looks at this. We attend to their capacity to ignore the world while they learn for hours and write chidushei Torah. And these are NOT the traits that produced gedolei Yisroel through the generations. The yeshivos that dedicate themselves to working with children with issues are an additional step away from pointing to successes. Anyone with elementary knowledge of developmental psychology knows that children are not fully developed in psyche until the 20's. Mental illness usually develop between ages 10-12 through early 20's. Assessments during these years are provisional, since the evaluator is shooting at a moving target. Many of the children reflecting academic or learning issues have additional conditions without clear symptoms to allow for diagnosis or focused treatment. Same goes for the behavioral disorders - one does not know enough about them for a while. Success rates are difficult to measure, and setting the criteria to measure is even harder.

    The current practices in chinuch bear little resemblance to that which was handed down through our mesorah. There are problems everywhere. There are issues in our children which are challenging, there are lifestyle and parenting issues that are alarming, and there are chinuch problems that are nightmarish. Whitewashing any of these is grossly irresponsible.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. Ben Levi
    Member

    TLTIK,

    T went through yeshivios my relatives went through yeshivos my friends went through yeshivos.

    To state that Yeshivos only focus on acedemics.

    Has not one single shred of truth to it.

    None.

    You honestly sound like you do not actually know what actually takes place in yeshivos?

    I am happy to tell you that you are seriously under informed.

    What do you think is discussed at the weekly "ethical lectures" i.e mussar shmuezzen, that take place in most yeshivos?

    Do you have any idea on the focus on charachter development that is made in most yeshivos?

    And you seem to have over looked my question.

    Rabbeim, Rabbonim and and Yeshivos as a whole can quite proudly point to the current not past ,

    Current success.

    The overwhelming majority of their graduates B"H have been able to build successful homes.

    Have complete families.

    The Divorce rate in the JEwish World is not 59%.

    There are B"h no examples of children going on shooting rampages in our schools.

    Are there problems.

    Of course.

    If there were no problems then Moshiach would be here.

    However the "therapist" model the Mental HEalth proffesion can point to no similar success rate.

    They can point to no successful communities.

    Each and every place they have been given the defference that you seem to be asking for the result has been disaster.
    In our communities they have unfortunatley been active for over a decade.

    They got in on the premise that they can make the problems better.
    Each and every single place they have been active has gotten worse.

    And sadly the communites that give the "professionals" the most sadly have gotten worse faster then anywhere else.
    You are right.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. Ben Levi:

    I will stop responding to your woefully blind perceptions about the present and the past. I happen to be extremely well placed, knowing much in the worlds of chinuch and other aspects of the frum community. I can't say more without full disclosure, and the CR is not the place for that. I will also state that I have had these discussions with gedolei Yisroel, and there is recognition of considerable truth. Our crisis matzav is NOT due to the influences of frum professionals any more than Hurricane Sandy was caused by frum plumbers.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. Ben Levi
    Member

    TLTIK

    I fail to see what my "blind perceptions" are.

    I think I have made clear I acknowledge that there are problems in the community.

    In fact I have made the point that since around 15 years ago when the famous JO came out and certain practices, and proffessions were introduced to our communities since it was made clear that it was the lack of them that were causing these problems and the introduction of them would solve these "problems" these problems have gotten worse.

    You seem to be unable to ansewer that point.

    We were told they would get better instead they gor worse.

    I furthermore pointed out that Satmar is acommunity which successfully dealt and solved two of the biggest crisis that are facing the ORthodox Jewish Community.

    Tuition (in itself a problem) and the fact that children are not being allowed into school becuase of tuition.

    This was done by Rabbonim and without "proffesionals".

    Secondly were the Chasunah Takonos which have undenioably been most succesfully implemented by Satmar.
    Again this was done without proffesionals.

    It was done by askonim working under the direct leadership of Rabbonim.

    A third crisis which I would mention is the ranging spread of technology in our community.

    The unfiltered access to the internet is recognized by everyone.
    I repeat everyone including non-jews to be dangerous (I beleive something like 20% of abuse starts through Social Media).

    To the best of my knowledge it once again is not proffesionals solving this crisis.

    It is Rabbonim and Youngeleit, that have made heavy inroads into stopping this and thereby arresting one of the greatest single causes of tragedies now-a-days.

    You have failed to address a single point.

    You have failed to explain how it is that the introduction of certain chinuch practices championed by "up to date" professionals and "marital training" techniques has led to the complete breakdown of the moral fabric of East Cost Society.

    You have failed to explain why in the 15 years since these practices have entered our communities, in the 15 years since these "professionals began to be treated somewhat seriously in our communities.

    Things have gotten worse.

    I believe I am making valid points.

    I further believe that I am asking valid questions.

    I do not see where you have even attempted to ansewer me.

    In my buisness I get a couple of years to set up shop.
    Sooner or later though you have to turn a profit if however you continue to lose money you go bankrupt and lose every investor.

    When does an entire field that has never once been able to show succcess on awidespread basis admit that they are wrong?

    When do we start to realize that there are problems and they have to be solved but the solutions we've tried are not working.

    They are making things worse, much worse.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. Ben Levi:

    You compare apples with oranges, and this is illogical. Therapists deal with the casualties of the system, and these have been growing steadily. The "professionals" have not been permitted to influence the "system", since your rabbonim consider their Torah-consistent ideas treif. So our yeshivos continue with practices that are NOT mesorah, NOT scientific, and are wrecking our youth. Those who provide the guidance to young people prior to marriage are from the "system", not professionals. Therapists have many shattered lives to repair when this holy guidance and direction fails. Professionals have contributed nothing to this. They are expected to fix the damage later. You are correct - there are some professionals who do not succeed. But the tide is against them, and they did NOT make that tide.

    Every professional I know (many) has a decent track record of successes. Ask them how many of their cases are casualties of rabbonim, chosson/kallah teachers, educators, etc. who messed up badly by assuming they could handle matters beyond their domain and skills. I am not addressing the non-Jewish population, and I frankly care little about them at the moment.

    You blame the JO articles. They are unrelated to the problem. It did not introduce professionals into the fabric of our society. They were already here. And there are many Torah guided training programs since that time. The frum professionals (hundreds of them) are under Torah guidance all the time. Ask them. Visit a Nefesh Conference, meet them, talk to them, instead of your assumptions and failed generalities.

    The academic practices we need to advocate for are precisely those that existed in the days of real melamdim. Individual attention. Focus on developing cheshek for Torah and Avodas Hashem. De-emphasis of discipline, which was intended to be the last resort. Role modeling. Chanoch lenaar al pi darko. All dictates of the Torah Hakedosha, not goyishe professionals. Our chinuch "system" fails dismally in this. Check the latest seforim on chinuch. They are fabulous. Now examine our mosdos, and assess how many of the menahalim and mechanchim have developed expertise in these seforim. Not in educational psychology, but in seforim. The percentage is microscopic. How many yeshivos require training, yes, Torah based training, as a pre-requisite to be a melamed? Answer, zero. I'm aware that there are yeshivos that consider the training programs Aish Dos (Torah Umesorah) a disqualification, and they reject anyone that has this training. And, it is fully endorsed by gedolei Yisroel.

    Chasunah Takanos? That will save the world. Come on. I don't challenge the need for this, but this has nothing to do with the failures of marriages and yeshivos. Get real.

    A therapist needs to show successes, but not in the world scene. he does not treat it. He treats the client in his office, and needs to be successful with the yechidim that seek his help. And B"H this has worked rather well. Therapists pump out the water, they cannot stop the flood. That needs to be done by the kehillos and the gedolim that lead them. Chasunah Takanos will not solve that.

    I'm not missing the points at all. I have not answered some questions, but some have no easy answers. But you missed my points completely.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. Ben Levi
    Member

    TLTIK
    My Rabbonim consider things treif?
    You have no idea who my "Rabbonim" are,nor what they consider treif.

    To state that the "professionals" have not been allowed to influence our systemmeans that you are willfully ignoring facts.

    Which Litvish elemntary school does not have a full lineup of resources of proffesional therapisrts to deal with eny and everything?

    In Lakewood there are massive organizations that actually command a good portion of the school district budget providing thereapists for everything.

    Chinuch has not changed? Discipline is not a "last resort"?

    Maybe you got stuch in yesteryear, however in todays schools discipline has been virtually outlawed.

    If you wish to change what is facts on the ground at least don't
    sound like a tape recorder.

    And about the role modeling.

    Yes that is 100% accurate.

    But guess what.

    Role Modeling begins at home.

    Rabbeim and teachers change each year.

    Parents don't.

    And if the Parents don't want to realize that they are the ones responsible to raise their children, they are the ones that must instill permanent valuesa in their children , well then there really is not much to do.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. My Rabbonim consider things treif?
    You have no idea who my "Rabbonim" are, nor what they consider treif.
    To state that the "professionals" have not been allowed to influence our system means that you are willfully ignoring facts. Which Litvish elementary school does not have a full lineup of resources of professional therapists to deal with any and everything?

    TLIK - Perhaps you should check these yeshivas to see just what these therapists do. They do not supervise the teachers or rebbeim, nor do they govern their lesson plans or curriculum. Therapists assist in addressing additional needs a student may have, whether reading, processing, speech, or whatever else. Chassidishe mosdos do the same. Those that do not have consulting professionals either make referrals to professionals off site, or they design their yeshiva to screen these cases from admission. Hopefully, yeshivas are not being so barbaric as to force a talmid to perform in class when there are other conditions and needs. As long as we are debating this, who fixes the vehicles (cars, vans, buses) when they break down? Don’t they take them off site for repair by trained mechanics? Do those mechanics tell the yeshiva how to teach?

    In Lakewood there are massive organizations that actually command a good portion of the school district budget providing therapists for everything.

    TLIK - You missed one word. For everything “needed”. No yeshiva has a therapist to just swoop down on the rebbeim to boss them around.

    Chinuch has not changed? Discipline is not a "last resort"?

    TLIK - I’m not sure what you are questioning here. We have crammed classrooms fuller than full, making management of the class harder than ever before. In fact, no rebbe today was ever in a class the size he is expected to teach nowadays. The fastest way to maintain law and order in a classroom is discipline. You know, rules, consequences, etc. But these might maintain law and order, but do not actually teach anything beyond compliance. And that is NOT the mission of a yeshiva. Even “punishments” must teach something beyond just “following rules”. A good rebbe seldom needs to “punish” for anything. He makes the learning geshmak that no one wants to disturb, tune out, or misbehave. It is rare that a rebbe has the intuition for this on his own (but noteworthy when he does). Most need training to learn how to do this. This topic can be debated endlessly. Just open a few of the well endorsed (haskamos from gedolei Yisroel) seforim on chinuch, and see what the real experts have to say about this.

    Maybe you got stuck in yesteryear, however in today’s schools discipline has been virtually outlawed.

    TLIK - That all depends on what you are calling discipline. I’m not even hinting at potching (corporal punishment). It is not outlawed in NY. I refer to the spectrum of punishing actions taken by rebbeim, teachers, and hanhala. There are too numerous to list versions of how to embarrass talmidim (as if malbin pnei chaveiro does not apply to a child). If someone did these despicable and abusive acts to your child, you would be remiss to ignore such treatment. The expelling of talmidim from yeshivas more accurately reflects a menahel who is a rodef than a child. I can back this up with a vast amount of experience, ranging from chassidishe yeshivas through Litvish.

    If you wish to change what are facts on the ground at least don't sound like a tape recorder.

    TLIK - The only tape recorder I am playing is the one that records what passes my phone and ears.

    And about the role modeling. Yes that is 100% accurate. But guess what. Role Modeling begins at home. Rabbeim and teachers change each year. Parents don't. And if the Parents don't want to realize that they are the ones responsible to raise their children, they are the ones that must instill permanent values in their children , well then there really is not much to do.

    TLIK - Here’s a well worn line that is endorsed by virtually all gedolei Yisroel. Parents and chinuch are PARTNERS in raising a child to adulthood. All adult figures are potential role models, and are absolutely mechuyav to behave that way. That accounts for refraining from behaviors that one would not wish to see copied from them (like smoking). It also means modeling how to be an oheiv Hashem, how to be moseir nefesh, how to look up to someone (as in assei lecho rav), how to recognize when one is wrong (yes, a parent or a rebbe can err, and must apologize and do teshuvah), and how to treat others respectfully. The thirst for kavod for oneself has never worked. Children learn more by example than by listening to lectures. Teach them to daven by davening. Get them to come on time by making the experience of tefillo precious in their eyes. Recognize that they have down days just like adults, and don’t punish them until you know they are doing something rebellious or intentionally irritating. All of the above is derived directly from seforim available to all. Try Alei Shor (and Zriya U’Binyan Bechinuch) from Rav Wolbe ZT”L. Or Kabdeihu Ve’chancheihu from Rav Friedman shlit”a. You might like Nesivos Shalom from the Slonimer Rebbe ZT”L. You might peruse the Chovas Hatalmidim by R” Klonymos Kalman of Piesecznye. I could drone on and on. No mention of a single secular reference or even a secular idea. Parents have the identical chiyuv as mechanchim. No one suggested exempting them. But it is malpractice for any rebbe to be derelict in his responsibility in these matters, abdicating the responsibility by passing it off to the parents. Perhaps you need to speak with some reputable, seasoned mechanchim about these issues. Your side of the debate here does not reflect anything beyond your agenda to discredit professionals.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. Ben Levi
    Member

    TLIK,
    So you seem to feel that the fact that Therapists do no thave veto ower over a Rebbi's curriculum is a problem.

    You seem to admit that the problems now-a-days have gooten worse.

    You also admit that in schools nowadays there are trained therapists to assist or take care of children with issues.

    This was not the case 15 years ago.

    It is the case now.

    So the school structure has changed, and those responsible for certain parts of chinuch have changed.

    The change has meant the bringing in of out side secularly trained therapists.

    The problems have grown worse, many times worse then they ever were before.

    Incidentally the exact same trajectory has been seen before in the PS system,

    As for the Rabbonim you qoute.

    No I have not read most of them excluding Rav Shlomo Wolbe zt"l and I find it interesting that you qoute him.

    I suggest you look for a small soft covered volume of a bunch of Rav Wolbe zt"ls letters that were published in honor of his shloshim.

    One of the longest letters that Rav Wolbe writes is one where he goes through the basis of phsycology, it's founders, his issues with two main "hashkofos" of phsycology (one of them being self esteem) writes that he beleives that physcology is responsible for the widespread KEfira in BEchira that is found today.

    He ends by writing that the "war" of our generation is to be "marchik", to push away the "daas' of phsycology from our camp as much as possibe!

    The letter is brilliantly written in the methodical crystal clear manner that anyone who has read of Rav Wolbe's works is accustemed to so I would recomend you find the Sefer and learn it.

    In this letter he makes reference to a much longer piece on the topic which he included in a Journal in Eretz Yisroel.

    And by the way, yes, if my car is broken I bring it to a mechanic becuase mechanics have demonstrated they have the ability to fix cars.

    Phsycology has been around for decades and the only thing they have demonstrated is widespread failure everywhere its "teachings" have been adopted.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. So you seem to feel that the fact that Therapists do not have veto power over a Rebbi's curriculum is a problem.
    TLIK – Nice effort at distorting my statement to complain. I never said that, and never hinted it either. You overestimated the role of these therapists in the schools where they are brought to consult. I said that they do NOT have jurisdiction over curriculum, and that controlling the yeshiva is NOT their role. They are there to assist with those students who need additional services because of specific and special needs.
    You seem to admit that the problems now-a-days have gotten worse.
    TLIK – that is correct. But your assumption of causality because of other changes is laughable. There are other pieces of krum logic in the lines that follow. Again, you have an agenda, and it screams out from your comments.
    You also admit that in schools nowadays there are trained therapists to assist or take care of children with issues. This was not the case 15 years ago. It is the case now. So the school structure has changed, and those responsible for certain parts of chinuch have changed.
    TLIK - This logic is comical. Trained therapists for special needs children does NOT modify the chinuch of the yeshiva in any way whatsoever. What have you been drinking?
    The change has meant the bringing in of outside secularly trained therapists.
    TLIK - I can list countless other changes. If you query any yeshiva that hires consultant therapists, they will each testify that there has been no control over curriculum. 15 years ago, yeshivas did not accept vouchers. 15 years ago, there were no Chasunah Takanos. 15 years ago, our homes were not flooded with the proliferation of “gedolim photos” in the frum media, neither the newspapers, nor the specialized photo magazines of gedolim, rabbonim, rebbes, and roshei yeshivos benching Chanukah licht, saying tashlich or birchas ilanos, dancing at simchos, etc. 15 years ago, you were not sitting on the internet. This is getting ridiculous.
    The problems have grown worse, many times worse than they ever were before.
    TLIK – the community has also grown exponentially since then. The numbers of yeshivas have ballooned. Yeshivos have become more selective in whom they accept (often with questionable criteria, but that’s for another discussion/debate). Parents have become busier with out-of-home activities, whether simchos, fund raisers, etc. And the advent of technology and its role in our lives is a major development. All you can do is point to helping professionals?
    Incidentally the exact same trajectory has been seen before in the PS system.
    As for the Rabbonim you quote. No, I have not read most of them excluding Rav Shlomo Wolbe zt"l and I find it interesting that you quote him. I suggest you look for a small soft covered volume of a bunch of Rav Wolbe zt"ls letters that were published in honor of his shloshim. One of the longest letters that Rav Wolbe writes is one where he goes through the basis of psychology, its founders, his issues with two main "hashkofos" of psychology (one of them being self esteem) writes that he believes that psychology is responsible for the widespread Kefira in Bechira that is found today. He ends by writing that the "war" of our generation is to be "marchik", to push away the "daas' of psychology from our camp as much as possible! The letter is brilliantly written in the methodical crystal clear manner that anyone who has read of Rav Wolbe's works is accustomed to so I would recommend you find the Sefer and learn it. In this letter he makes reference to a much longer piece on the topic which he included in a Journal in Eretz Yisroel.
    TLIK – I will IY”H try to obtain the sefer and learn through it. Meanwhile, if you will go through his maamorim on chinuch carefully, you will see that he provides a direction that is almost a full opposite of what is commonplace in the entire spectrum of yeshivas and schools. He assails the perversion of the posuk of “Choseich shivto” to permit the abusive practices of discipline and punishment. The basic argument is that simple pshat in the posuk is not extolling the virtues of this attitude. Chas veshalom. If that were the case, the second half of the posuk (which most mechanchim cannot quote even though they hide behind the first half) is “Ve’ohavo shichro mussar” – would be replaced with something guiding the mechanech to express his love for the child by beating the child’s brains out.
    And by the way, yes, if my car is broken I bring it to a mechanic because mechanics have demonstrated they have the ability to fix cars. Psychology has been around for decades and the only thing they have demonstrated is widespread failure everywhere its "teachings" have been adopted.
    TLIK – Your generalization is both false and misleading. As in every field, there have been theories and approaches that were distortions and dangerous. We can examine the medical field, and find exactly what you describe in mental health. How many foods and products are brought to market, even with research to support them, only to be recalled later due to newer discoveries of risk and danger? Psychology has had its movements and ideas. There has been influence of outside, foreign philosophies in earlier days. In the past several decades, this has disintegrated completely. There is no influence of these ideas. And one can pursue a career in psychology without subscribing to atheist or heretical philosophies. There is much that has occurred in our times that people think are based on psychology but is really not. The same gender marriage issue, for example, has zero basis in psychology. It is purely a political, moral issue. A psychologist can have an opinion about it with the same intensity as the fellow pumping gas at the filling station. Issues like this are attributed to psychology when they really have no connection. Again, you have an agenda and a closed mind. Correlational data cannot be used to indicate causal relationships.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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