confused

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  • #1536894

    BMG_Guy
    Participant

    I feel so sick… I had a family in Kiryas Yoel and somewhere along the way on my way back home I went to catch Maariv by some small minyan, and I sat next to a a guy who happened to need to check his phone for 1 second. And this little kid, who’s not even Bar Mitzvah walks up to this guy from the other side of shul and tells him “Put away your phone, your in a shul”. I was shocked and embarrassed. The guy then says “Isn’t that chutzpah of you to say to somebody older then you”? the kid responds “The rabbanim say, you can’t take out your phone in a shul, and you must leave it at home”. The guy then asks what yeshiva do you go to the kid tells him, and the guy asks “They don’t teach derech eretz in ___________________? The kid then yells at the guy “SHHHHHH!!!!!!!”
    So now I ask, how does a kid have the chutzpah to go up to someone, and, give him “Mussar”???????????
    is that even normal??????????

    #1536931

    Joseph
    Participant

    What if instead of a phone, the guy in the story pulled out a little portable TV and started watching a soap opera. Would your reaction be any different?

    #1537073

    laskern
    Participant

    The problem is they are not trained sensitivity, tact. It is not so much the saying but how to say it. That is what derech eretz is. It is the time for Moshiach when the young have no respect for the elders ירהבו הנער בזקן.

    #1537233

    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    The kid was 100% correct. It doesn’t matter who says it – if it is true then be Mekabel. Adults get insulted when a kid gives them Mussar? Why? One reason – ga’avah. I am pretty sure that this guy who “happened to HAVE to check his phone” would have had the exact same response to any adult who told him to put it away. Smart phones are a sickness and their addiction is bad. Admit it and get help.

    #1537234

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If a child speaks truth, listen.

    #1537268

    BMG_Guy
    Participant

    I would love to talk to this kids Rebbe.

    #1537266

    BMG_Guy
    Participant

    RevYidd23:
    Why does an adult need to take mussar from a kid, who’s even bar mitzvah.
    And he’s not speaking truth. He’s speaking 100 percent chutzpah. Why is it a kids business?

    #1537265

    BMG_Guy
    Participant

    Baltimoremusings:
    So according to you it’s normal for a random kid to give an adult mussar? What happened to Derech Eretz? All the sudden it’s mutar to be a Mechutzif? How about Derech Eretz Kudma L’Torah? And I just so happen to know this person who took out his phone, and he told me, if the Rav will come over to me and tell me “we have a no cell phone policy, of course I would listen”. So instead of saying this person would not take mussar because of Ga’aveh is completely wrong.
    What business does a kid have telling somebody what to do. If that were my kid I’d be very upset with him.

    #1537277

    The little I know
    Participant

    BMGGuy

    This kid is 100% correct. His mitzvah of הוכח תוכיח might be characterized as based on חינוך. You might have an issue if he screamed it and caused the fellow embarrassment – really untactful. Meanwhile, if someone hears something that is in the direction of mussar, he needs to accept it whether it comes from a child, a goy, from random occurrences, or someone who is a בר חיובא in the mitzvah of תוכחה. Failing to heed the message is, in itself, an עברה. Why are you busy defending the בזיון to the בית הכנסת and the ציבור?

    #1537285

    BMG_Guy
    Participant

    And I should also add when davening was finished the kid was telling the adult he’s wrong for what he did and the adult said your being chutzpahdik and the kid said your being chutzpahdik to the Rabbanim.

    #1537287

    BMG_Guy
    Participant

    And my first post I wrote: I had a family, I left out ‘Simcha’

    #1537331

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    BMG Guy – you are SO correct! This kid’s message may have been right but the kid was wrong. And the idea that there are people condoning his behavior just because the adult was wrong is absurd. If the kid was sincere he would have found a much more humbling way of wording it, knowing he is giving mussar to an adult. The SHHH at the end does not fit in to any defendable category and probably confirms that the first words were no more sincere than the last. I don’t believe for a second a child who is sincere about wanting to prevent a bizayon in shul would ever shush an adult.

    #1537308

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Why shouldn’t a man listen to a child?

    #1537339

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Sometimes its not the message, but the messager or how the message is sent

    #1537344

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    They were both wrong

    #1537346

    laskern
    Participant

    Rebyidd23, The reason he did not listen because it was said without respect. – “Put away your phone”

    #1537532

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    He also responded without respect.

    #1537541

    laskern
    Participant

    Rebyidd23, so you believe that the same respect must be given to a child as an elderly person.

    #1537564

    BMG_Guy
    Participant

    RebYidd23:
    Who’s ‘he’?

    #1537585

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    BMG-Guy, he is the child.

    #1537580

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    and I sat next to a a guy who happened to need to check his phone for 1 second

    My friend suspects that it wasn’t actually the guy sitting next to you, that checking his phone wasn’t actually necessary, and that it was for more than one second.

    #1537581

    BMG_Guy
    Participant

    By the way, the yeshiva this kid attends I know for a fact doesn’t encourage this behavior, how do I know? I myself attended the the kids yeshiva from elementary thru Mesivta and I know all the hanhala very well.

    #1537604

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    DY – then it would be your responsibility to find out. You were told what the facts were but you are deciding that they were probably something else and basing the appropriateness of the response on your presumption. Teachers do that all the time – sorry, I mean bad teachers do that all the time and it can be very damaging.

    #1537619

    BMG_Guy
    Participant

    DY- where do you get that it’s okay for a child to tell an adult what he’s doing wrong, why is it the child’s business ? I personally leave my phone at home when I daven Minchah and Maariv, I agree that in shul it’s the time to talk to Hashem, but is it my business what the fellow next to me does? It’s none of my business. I go to shul to daven, Shoin! and if a kid can’t do that either he shoudn’t daven in a minyan for Balabatim or/and learn how to be Dan L’kaf Z’chus.

    #1537626

    BMG_Guy
    Participant

    The reason I’m kinda sensitive to this issue is because one morning by shachris in a busy shul I see a guy by my table on his phone the whole entire time, P’sukei Dzimrah, Kriah Shema, Shemoineh Esrei, the whole davening, and i’m thinking to myself the nerve this guy has… then he gets up and walks by me and I see him Davening from a siddur app on his phone, did I feel stupid. From then on I try my best to not judge other people no matter how wrong something looks.

    #1537627

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Why should a child be more exempt from giving tochacha than from being nice?

    #1537642

    Joseph
    Participant

    ” I agree that in shul it’s the time to talk to Hashem, but is it my business what the fellow next to me does? It’s none of my business. I go to shul to daven, Shoin!”

    Baloney. It 100% most definitely is your, and every other Jew’s, business what the next Yid is up to. You are responsible for him, areivim zeh lzeh, not even mentioning the obligation of tochacha, you’re certainly responsible to care for his and every Yid’s spiritual wellbeing (ruchniyos) at least as much as his gashmius since his ruchniyos is even more important than his gashmiyus.

    #1537662

    BMG_Guy
    Participant

    Joseph: So if you found out your child decided to tell an adult what to do, you wouldn’t be upset?

    #1537678

    Joseph
    Participant

    BMG_Guy: If you found out your child decided not to tell an adult that the cookie he was munching on came from a treif bakery, you wouldn’t be upset?

    #1537677

    BMG_Guy
    Participant

    Reb Yid, and why should a child be exempt from Derech Eretz?

    #1537691

    BMG_Guy
    Participant

    Joseph: your comaring apples and oranges, and if you even want to compare the 2, theres still no excuse to be chutzpahdik and theres a more mentshlach way to say it

    #1537694

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I marvel that you are stuck on the child either being rude or letting it go. If my kid was there he would easily have come to me and asked me, as an adult, to say something to the man. If there were no adults to ask, i have no doubt he would have said something respectful, apologizing for speaking out of turn and kind. He wouldnt argue back or shhh an adult. Is your inability to see more respectful options a product of not having any on the tip of your tongue? How then do you educate yourbown children to have respect?

    #1537699

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    BMG, because a child is not yet bar mitzvah.

    #1537726

    jew boy2
    Participant

    the kid should have smashed his phone.

    #1537776

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    That would literally be a crime.

    #1538957

    flowers
    Participant

    Syag Lchochma: If your kid would have brought the matter to your attention, would you have said something to the person?

    #1539089

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Absolutely, if it was appropriate. But i would first make sure my kid had his facts straight and then find the most halachically appropriate way to say it.

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