Consulting the Igros

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  • #1470801

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As we learned here on the CR, a tzaddik can do things in supernatural ways.

    Surely we can all agree that Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l was a huge tzaddik.

    So from now on, whenever I have a halachic shailah, I will flip to a random page in the Igros Moshe and follow whatever it says.

    #1470810

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Wow. Daas Yochid is getting into the troll game? Moshiach must be here.

    #1470929

    Curious1000
    Participant

    Would you look at the Igros in Cheilek ח?

    #1471025

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Would you look at the Igros in Cheilek ח?

    I asked Rav Moshe that, and he said it’s fine.

    #1475323

    Nice one. I laughed out loud in public. : )

    #1475325

    Joseph
    Participant

    Why are you surfing in public?

    #1475367

    funnybone
    Participant

    What will you do if you have a question about shabbos clocks and he says that the eruv in BP isnt kosher? Will you no longer use a shabbos clock? Or will you be careful not to make a pulled pork sandwich without the pork?

    #1475370

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I asked him about the porkless pork, and he said it was okay (I pulled up one of the cholov stam teshuvos).

    #1480839

    Why are you surfing in public?

    Because I often have access only via a public network.
    Wouldn’t it be better to be in public, anyway? (“Before a man sins…”)

    #1480945

    GAON
    Participant

    DY
    “Would you look at the Igros in Cheilek ח?

    I asked Rav Moshe that, and he said it’s fine.”

    How come when I asked he said ח”ח is אסור?

    (It read: “להח”ח אסור”)

    #1480986

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You probably didn’t look in ‘חלק ח as I did.

    #1481004

    GAON
    Participant

    Well, ask the Chabadnik’s how it works – you just go over to the shelve and pick the first one/closest that comes to your hand. I picked the right-handed side which is Chelek 1.

    So either you not doing it correct or you are a lefty.

    NOTE – The other time I ended up with the “Yad Moshe (Maftechos)”….
    (Hmm does that count? – Perhaps we need to ask that too? )

    #1481009

    Midwest2
    Participant

    This thread isn’t funny. Making derisive comments referring to Reb Moshe zatzal, even if you’re not mocking him but some other topic, isn’t kavod haTorah. It’s indicative of the kind of leitzanus that has been growing and slowly undermining our values as frume yidden. I don’t hold with the kinds of divination some people use, but showing contempt or derision for another Jew “past nisht.” We’re all b’tzelem Elokim, even those who are foolish about some things.

    #1481066

    GAON
    Participant

    See Talmud Megilah 25b Sanhedrin 63b
    …..אמר רב נחמן

    #1481016

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    No need to consult the Igros Moshe…just give a call to the Rav’s son-in-law, Rav Tendler, shlita, and you will get the answer you want.

    #1481072

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Actually, the reason for the whole shailah on the eighth volume of Igros Moshe is because it’s known that Rabbi Tendler forged the teshuvah on brain death, which calls into question everything else.

    Why would anyone want to actually consult someone who’s a known fraudster?

    #1481078

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    …..אמר רב נחמן

    To complete the quote:

    אמר רב נחמן כל ליצנותא אסירא בר מליצנותא דעבודת כוכבים דשריא

    Making derisive comments referring to Reb Moshe zatzal

    I’m sorry that you can’t see the obvious, that this thread does not ch”v in any way say anything bad about R’ Moshe.

    It mocks, rather, a practice which unfortunately doesn’t seem to be so uncommon, and seems to go together with other thoughts and practices which undermine some basic yesodos of Yiddishkeit.

    #1481851

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    So R’ Moshe can do what a Navi and the Urim Vetumin can’t?

    #1481897

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    This thread has been around so long that it has be orphaned from its parent thread and people are starting to take it seriously…

    #1482226

    Curious1000
    Participant

    @DaasYochid – Can you try this for me for real?

    My question: Should I bother listening to anything posted in the CR.

    Now, please check for me what comes up, and your interpretation.

    (I wonder how will this will work…)

    #1482261

    GAON
    Participant

    Good point, Neville.
    Perhaps the original Meshiachist link should be added to the OP.

    #1482272

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Neville, not at all. The point is that it is not a fair comparison. For Halacha we never followed any supernatural advice. But for other matters we’ve had Neviim, Urim Vetumim, Chalomos, Psok Li Psukecha, Goralos (not sure how some Goralos are better than others, but they’ve been around), signs from Shamayim (by those who got them), ‘Muskal Rishon’.

    In general, the Sugyos of supernatural are very involved, as the Rashba points out, and unfortunately are almost always dealt with wide-brush, universal attitude one way or the other.

    #1482391

    GAON
    Participant

    “Neviim, Urim Vetumim, Chalomos, Psok Li Psukecha, Goralos”

    Notice – all these were done with the highest level of Torah or sort of NeVuah. The words of G-D i.e. Torah or Neviim Kesuvim. I never heard one opening even a Gemorah.
    “Goralos” if you are referring to Goral Ha’Gra that is done with a Chumash as well…

    #1482605

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Here is the original meshichist link:

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/reply/1469940

    #1482666

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Notice – all these were done with the highest level of Torah or sort of NeVuah. The words of G-D i.e. Torah or Neviim Kesuvim. I never heard one opening even a Gemorah.
    “Goralos” if you are referring to Goral Ha’Gra that is done with a Chumash as well…

    So you just made up a classification in order to have a Taana on people. You also ignored part of the list.

    Well, I meant the Goral Hagra along with the the whole Sefer Goralos from Reb Chaim Vittal.

    #1482948

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Those are all methods of consulting with Hashem, not a dead person.

    #1483007

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Putting that aside, just because the concept of getting an answer in a supernatural way indeed exists, that makes it less silly to randomly make up a method?

    #1483054

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Goral HaGra really does involve opening a Tanach to a random page? What does it accomplish? Why is it OK?

    #1483095

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The (‘ש”ך (יו”ד קע”ט ה says asking פסוק לי פסוקא is a קצת נבואה.

    #1483123

    GAON
    Participant

    Nev,

    גורל הגר””א is by far just a random flip. Nor can it be done by a simple person, officially you need to have obtained somewhat the level of Ruach haKodesh. I think Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank relied once on Rav Aryeh Levin’s Goral.

    In any case, that is precisely the point, they are giving the Rebbes letters the same status as כביכול the word of hashem. I have no Taayne it basically speaks on it’s own. It indicates how far this has taken the Moshiach cult.

    Think about it, no one ever suggest using a Zohar or even a Tanya for any of those, this is a new invention.

    Anyone that thinks it’s the same as just doing the Goral haGra needs to rethink what the very issue at hand is.

    #1483129

    laskern
    Participant

    The GRA says that Eli misread the state of Chana from keshero to shikara. I thought that the Urim Vetumim not only lights up the letters but also puts the letters together. (vetumim)

    #1483141

    laskern
    Participant

    To have siyata dishmaya in your learning, you open up the sefer to the right place you want to learn eliminating searching.

    #1483142

    laskern
    Participant

    According to the R’ Yanoson Eubshutz there were two lotteries for Purim one had the months in it and the other a day number in the year. If the day came out in the month pulled, it was a good lottery otherwise it didn’t mean anything. That is why it was called Purim in plural for two lotteries.

    #1483159

    laskern
    Participant

    Reb Moshe in Igros Moshe O”CH 6:2 says something interesting. A woman according to the Rabbenu Taam can make a brocho on a time dependent mitzva, but not an eved because he does not have a
    קדושת ישראל. It looks like a woman does but not as great as a man that is why she is exempt from time dependent commandments. Not like the Kol Bo who says that she is exempt because she is responsible to her husband.

    #1483160

    Midwest2
    Participant

    DY – it’s pretty obvious that the thread is making fun of certain practices, which I also agree aren’t mainstream frum, but bringing Reb Moshe into it as part of a joke isn’t respectful.

    Talking about the GRA in the inyan of the Goral HaGra is relevant if it’s done respectfully.

    However, I still think it’s not right to ridicule people. I think certain groups are way off the mark in terms of some of their beliefs and minhagim, but ridiculing people isn’t a very effective form of tochacha.

    #1483166

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m willing to discuss. Why do you think the gemara approves of mocking avodah zarah, and why do you think this is different?

    #1483172

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Reb Moshe in Igros Moshe O”CH 6:2 says something interesting. A woman according to the Rabbenu Taam can make a brocho on a time dependent mitzva, but not an eved because he does not have a קדושת ישראל. It looks like a woman does but not as great as a man that is why she is exempt from time dependent commandments. Not like the Kol Bo who says that she is exempt because she is responsible to her husband.”

    Iaskern: How is women’s קדושת ישראל less than the קדושת ישראל of men?

    #1483173

    laskern
    Participant

    R’ Yonason Steif had great respect in front of Reb Moshe, such that he would stand up when he talked to him on the phone. There is an interesting story with R’ Yonason validated by his daughter in a book written about him. My Rebbe when he was young was called in Hungary to the army.
    He went to his Rebbe Rav Yonason to ask for help to get out from it. He gave him an incantation that he required to say before seeing the doctor. The goats of the slaughter house are fatter from me. When he uttered it in hebrew as in the gemora in Megila, he became a lepper such that he was thrown out. They were afraid he will infect them. When he left, he got cured and became normal again.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1483178

    laskern
    Participant

    There is an argument between Reb Moshe and the Chasam Sofer what tefila betzibur is. According to
    Reb Moshe tefila betzibur is the quiet shmone esrei davening together whereas the Chasam Sofer holds that the shaliach tzibur unites and therefore if someone comes late he should daven shmone esrei together with the shaliach tzibbur.

    #1483188

    laskern
    Participant

    Joseph I don’t know ask someone who is familiar with the teshuva. I don’t think he mentions the Kol Bo’s reason. Similarly like a kohen who has a higher kedusha than a yisroel. The woman was created to help the man so the man is main performer of mitzvas.

    #1483189

    laskern
    Participant

    Moderator: There is a bug in this system. If I try editing a reply, I sometimes lose it.

    Gets sent to spam. Weird

    #1483197

    Joseph
    Participant

    Iaskern: So per the teshuva the pecking order of a קדושת ישראל, from greatest down, would be 1) Kohanim, 2) Leviim, 3) male Yisroelim 4) women?

    #1483205

    GAON
    Participant

    Las,
    Non of these are spoon fed information, not the או”ת nor the Goral haGra, or even Nevuah, all need to be interpreted by the recipient. The only one who saw all with a clear vision was Moshe Rabenu known as אספקלריא המאירה…

    #1483212

    Midwest2
    Participant

    DY – I see your objection, but there are three factors here:

    1. Labeling something as avodah zarah is pretty serious, something that needs a posek or a talmid chacham. Just as we say that someone is a tinok she’nishba if they grow up without any yiddishkeit at all, so you could say the same about someone who is raised with a certain derech that most of us don’t accept, people who honestly believe that they are practicing authentic yiddishkeit.

    2. Declaring certain groups “beyond the pale” has halachic consequences. We can’t eat their shchita or drink their wine. But there are also yichus problems, similar to the ones faced by some Jews from India or Ethiopia – maybe their marriages are valid but their gittin aren’t, leading to sofek mamzerus for the whole group. And these are mostly people that we couldn’t invoke the idea that sofek being a Jew cancels the sofek of being a mamzer. No matter how confused, members of these groups are still recognized as yidden. So what happens when the third generation wants to rejoin the mainstream?

    3. My mother AH used to say, “You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.” Ridiculing people is absolutely guaranteed to make them stop listening to you at all, when if you speak a little more softly, you might have a chance of your tochacha being heard. דברי חכמים בנחת נשמעים

    That said, there are groups whose shchita I do not eat and whose wine I do not drink.

    #1483231

    Joseph
    Participant

    “That said, there are groups whose shchita I do not eat and whose wine I do not drink.”

    Which groups are those?

    #1483246

    laskern
    Participant

    Doesn’t say that the Beis Shamay and Beis Hillel argued but that they didn’t hold back from intermarrying. It says that an argument lashem shomaim stands. Asks the Midrash Samuel who wants it to stand? But he brings an exploration from the Rambam why by life and death judgements if all twenty three said he is guilty, he went out innocent. We need defenders. Otherwise, they can all make the same mistake. The Beis Shamai by having a different view helped the Beis Hillel arrive to the truth by eliminating tunnel vision. This why because of their humility allowed the Beis Shamay to precede them hearing their view first in order that before they make up their mind, they wanted to to here another view,

    #1483250

    laskern
    Participant

    I will repeat what I wrote somewhere else:

    It doesn’t matter what type of a chosid you are or if you are a chosid at all as long that you want to create nachas ruach to Hashem with your service. They are all different ways to arrive to the same thing. The importance is not the means but the end,

    #1483415

    laskern
    Participant

    GAON, We say in birchas kohanim to nullify the dream in sixty. The Taamei Haminhogim explains that a dream is one sixtieth in sanctity and the kohanim at the duchenen are completely holy so we want to nullify the dream in sixty. It says the dream becomes true according to the interpreter. We see what you are saying is true.

    #1483445

    GAON
    Participant

    “Labeling something as avodah zarah is pretty serious, something that needs a posek or a talmid chacham”

    No one (I hope so) is Labeling people here as Ovdei A”Z, rather its these acts that have concepts of AZ – these very methods have a ריח של ע”ז, and goes against some foundations of Yidishkeit. As for the very people committing them, they have been denounced by their very fellow Anti-Mashiachist’s as well. We are not the first ones here…However, I believe most of them are brainwashed from birth and no need to go to extreme saying:

    “there are groups whose shchita I do not eat and whose wine I do not drink.”

    On the contrary, Rav Shach ZT”L did label them as Kefirah. Almost every posek disagreed with him incl. Rav SZ Auerbach ZTL.

    #1483447

    Eli Y
    Participant

    Lask: “Rambam why by life and death judgements if all twenty three said he is guilty, he went out innocent. ”

    Wonderful reference to my teacher the Rambam!

    Lask: “The Beis Shamai by having a different view helped the Beis Hillel arrive to the truth by eliminating tunnel vision”

    If you mean that Beis Hillel opinion was “truth” and Shammai was “not truth”, I have learned that they are both true. In the current world we go by Hillel–in the world to come we will go by Shammai.

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