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Las, all that is defined by the very fact of the differences of Moshe RA”H having Navuah in a level of אספקלריא המאירה whereas all Nevuim not. Non of these methods surpass Nevuah…
Why does the mdoerator allow the following to be written?
“it’s known that Rabbi Tendler forged the teshuvah on brain death”
Is it open season on calling Talmidei Chachamim dishonest?
I would expect the moderators to take action on this issue immediately.
Sabba,
“Is it open season on calling Talmidei Chachamim dishonest?”
Are you disputing the ‘forgeries’ as a fact?
For if he did commit that then he has no status of a Talmid Chacham and deserves to be denounced.
NOTE – A זקן ממרא was a Talmid Chacham as well…
When Rav Aaron Kutler was debating whether to do as Rav Moshe Feinstein requested and go to the U.S. or to immigrate to Eretz Yisrael, which is what he was longing to do, he did the goral haGra and it told him, “go to your brother Moshe in the desert”.
Perhaps I am missing something here and I am new here so maybe I need orientation.
Am I the only here who is disturbed by the rechilut/ lashon hara about a Rav (which is relevant regardless of the truth of the rumor) .
To the best of my knowledge, Rav Moshe Feinstein’s psak about brain death was well known in his lifetime. What right does someone have to blatantly spread such a ruimor?
And what exactly is the relevance of zaken mamreh? Is Rabbi Tendler being accused of rebelling against the Sanhedrin?
It appears that I probably should not be a member of such a group.
laskern: You wrote: “The GRA says that Eli misread the state of Chana from keshero to shikara”. I was taught that the GRA wrote that Eli misread KESARAH as shikora (meaning she was childless like Sarah). It would depend on whether it was the “shin” in Shimon or the “sin” in Yissochar was lit up. I also believe it is the Rambam who states that the cohain has to arrange the letters.
Eli Y – Let me explain why in the world to come we pasken like the Beis Shammai what happens to the majority view? In the world to come we will come to higher understanding as currently don’t understand the view of Shammai as Rabbi Eliezer, Rabbi Shimon etc. but once we come to understand the majority will pasken like Beis Shammai. Currently the Beis Hillel is being helped by the Beis Shammai to arrive to the truth so they are also praiseworthy. The Ran in the Droshas explains your predicament, how can they both be true when sometimes they have opposite views. Once the Torah was given down to earth we must understand it with human understanding not heavenly understanding..
agutyar, DY
As DY has pointed out, there is no concrete proof that it ever occurred. (I am not even so sure how much Rav Aaron had with Rav Moshe prior to arriving in America.- If anything it was more likely that either Rav E Silver or Rav A Kalmanovitz was involved with Rav Araron Kotlers arrival).
However, there was the famous Goral haGra performed by Rav Aryeh Levin in Jerusalem by the request of Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank to identify the burial spots of 12 kedoshim who died in 1948 war. Rav Frank relied on it and buried them accordingly.
Just google ר’ אריה לוין גורל הגר”א’ for all the details.
Also, see Rav Shlomo Klugers Psak regarding when we can perform Goral and when not.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1354&st=&pgnum=28&hilite=
iacisrmma – you are right I looked it up it is Sara. I don’t know where I got my pshat.
The problem is how can you misread it when a person with a siyan was lit up and not with a shiyan?
Saba,
“Perhaps I am missing something here and I am new here so maybe I need orientation.”
There are no “groups” here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as its with respect etc I think the Mods will let it through.
As for the “relevance of zaken mamreh” Zaken mamreh proves you can be a Talmid Chacham and still go against the Torah.
Many true Gadolim have questioned Rav Tendler’s actions and the part of Igros Moshe reliability, these are not just “rumors” no one here is speaking on their own terms. There is nothing wrong with knowing if one can rely on that volume or not.
What in the world does your medium of Gorel have to do with the Hetter!? Are you claiming that you just got Nevua because you opened a Tanach? If Gorel is Muttar they are all Muttar. If not, none of them are. If the idea is that you Daven to Hashem to send you an inspired guidance through the Torah which includes all knowledge, that is all very nice but it pertains to the discussion of whether it works or not. These beautiful ideas don’t change the prohibition of following a Gorel.
If you ordained your Gorel with wonderful ideas it becomes holy, all of a sudden? Perhaps using a Chumash is actually way worse since you are being Mishtamesh Betagga. It’s hard to see why that would be better than reciting a Pasuk onto a wound.
Perhaps you can answer that you aren’t really relying on where it opens but will only take a hint, a Siman. Nice Hetter, but this can apply to other mediums as well. We find in the end of Medrash Eicha where Rav Hoshia tells Rebbi to view an event in a certain light because of what they where Darshening that day.
Tosafos explains that Eliezer and Yonason where allowed to use the Nichush since they did it along with a Svara.
As to wondering who made this up, I’m with you on that one. So, I can declare, just like you, that it’s weird and funny. That’s where I get off.
Lask: “Eli Y – Let me explain why in the world to come we pasken like the Beis Shammai what happens to the majority view? ”
I have learned from your response Laskern–thank you.
תן לחכם ויחכם עוד Eli Y – Tosfas in Baba Metzia by the תנור של עכנאי explains that we needed the Bas Kol by Beis Hillel even though they were in majority because the Beis Shammai is sharper explains why we don’t understand
currently the Beis Shammai. Also currently we can’t take their stringencies.“As to wondering who made this up, I’m with you on that one. So, I can declare, just like you, that it’s weird and funny. That’s where I get off.”
Thank you haleivi for your comments. I’m still happy to answer any questions including that one, just wasn’t able to to on the other thread because it became more of a bashing one with tons of different questions on different topics thrown in before one was resolved completely so I had to recusr myself. I also don’t think this thread is the right place to discuss due to the mocking tone. If you’d like to understand please see the stump the Rabbi site and click on the video that addresses this very question. Hope this helps.
“it’s known that Rabbi Tendler forged the teshuvah on brain death”
Is it known or suspected?
Lask: Beis Shammai is sharper explains why we don’t understand currently the Beis Shammai. Also currently we can’t take their stringencies
Thank you again Lask–I’m impressed by your knowledge and can see you are not a native English speaker so that this is not the easiest to communicate.
You may know that the opinion you state from Tosfas in Baba Metzia is a Chabad foundational belief. I did not know that it came from this source.
laskern: From what I recall the letter “shin” appears 4 times and “sin” twice. I am not sure what was actually lit up. Your pshat (which I found on aish dot com explains why Eli thought “shikora”; if a sin in Yissachor was lit why would he think it was a shin? I am not sure. I remember being taught this GRA by Rabbi Schwartz, the Mora d’asra of the Young Israel of Parkchester, during his Rosh Hashana drosha.
Eli Y, Tosfas in Baba Metzia 59:2 starts לא בשמים הוא, can be explained that the Bas Kol revealed that what it says אחרי רבים להטעות, we go after the majority, which can mean either in quantity or quality , is in quantity.
There’s a chapter in “Inside Their Homes” on the Goral haGRA (which
predates the GRA, and it is unclear how it came to be called that).
The Goral is clearly acknowledged and used by gedolim (and is
more involved than opening a Tanach at random, HaLeiVi).
Reb Moshe in Igros Moshe O”CH 6:2 says something interesting. A woman according to the Rabbenu Taam can make a brocho on a time dependent mitzva, but not an eved because he does not have a
קדושת ישראל. It looks like a woman does but not as great as a man that is why she is exempt from time dependent commandments.Are you quoting Reb Moshe as saying that women have a lesser degree of
kedushas Yisroel, or are you saying that that is what appears to you
to be the case from what Reb Moshe wrote?as long that you want to create nachas ruach to Hashem with your service.
… The importance is not the means but the endNot when those means are contradictory to Hashem’s stated will.
Gaon –
My comment was aimed at the moderators of the group.
Who decides who can be defamed?If someone were to say that Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l copied a teshuva from someone else or that Rav Aharon Kotler zt”l forged someone’s signature, would the moderator not censor it? I would hope that he would.
I am not comparing the personalities or their galdus b’torah but merley pointing out that I would expect the moderators to prohibit anything which might be libelous. No damage can caused by being machmir in that .
It appears to be from what Reb Moshe wrote that the reason women are exempt from positive time dependent commandments is because they have less kadushah from men just like a yisroel has less kadushah from a kohen
or levi. The importance is the service to Hashem not how we serve Him. Some emphasize Torah (litvak) others Avodah (chosid) and the women Gemilas Chasodim. All three are equal since their gematria is the same תורה, יראת
גמילות חסדים.Laskern –
when you wrote: – Tosfas in Baba Metzia 59:2 starts לא בשמים הוא, can be explained that the Bas Kol revealed that what it says אחרי רבים להטעות, we go after the majority, which can mean either in quantity or quality , is in quantity.
Perhaps you meant אחרי רבים להטות ….. even though the רבים occasionally is wrong also,
Random3x, if Rav Moshe said that Kohanim have more kedusha than Yisroelim would that raise the same question mark in your mind as Rav Moshe saying that men have more kedusha than women?
Thank you Sabba8, of course, I didn’t have the chumash in front of me. so I misspelled it.
Sabba: You’re the only one here saying the the accuracy of the claim is irrelevant. Truth tends to be a defense against defamation. As for lashon hara, as Gaon said, its very important for people to know whether their relying on a psak from Reb Moshe or from a Rabbi who would commit fraud.
To respond to your straw man argument of “If someone were to say that Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l copied a teshuva from someone else etc.” I will use another straw man as I like to do:
If I were to write my own halachah that it’s a mitzvah to give me 20$ a day, and I appended it on the end of Iggeros Chazon Ish, would we have to assume the Chazon Ish actually said it so as to not talk lashon hara about me?I think the litvishe and chasidim argue on עת לעשות לה הפרו תורתך, make time when the Torah will be disrupted,. The litvishe believe that when the Torah is being disrupted, we have to accommodate somewhat not to disrupt any more accept for shabbos, but the chasidim believe the reverse הפרו תורתך עת לעשות לה when there will be a time when the Torah is disrupted, be strong and don’t allow any transgressions even the smallest in order that it should not bring to any greater transgressions.
Neville
There are tens of teshuvos on the subject of brain death which rely on Rav Moshe’s psak as authoratative. Are they all to be ignored in light of the fact that everyone on this list except for me believes that the forgery is true?
Las, “Perhaps you meant אחרי רבים להטות ….. even though the רבים occasionally is wrong also,”
In terms of the Talmud there is no “wrong” as per the Gemorah in Eruvin 13b and Gittin :
שלוש שנים נחלקו בית שמאי ובית הלל. הללו אומרים הלכה כמותינו, והללו אומרים הלכה כמותינו. יצאה בת קול ואמרה: אלו ואלו דברי אלוהים חיים הן, והלכה כבית הלל. וכי מאחר שאלו ואלו דברי אלוהים חיים – מפני מה זכו בית הלל לקבוע הלכה כמותן? מפני שנוחין ועלובין היו, ושונין דבריהן ודברי בית
שמאי. ולא עוד, אלא שמקדימין דברי בית שמאי לדבריהן”See the Ritva there, explaining the obvious question – how is it possible that BOTH can be true, it is either Tuma or Tahor/Muttar/Asser?
He explains that Hashem had originally presented Moshe Rabenu each Halacha with two sides of the argument (actually 49 reasons to each side) and, that the actual psak will be up to each generation’s Chachmei hador. Thus in essence, they are both Toras emes given by Hashem
Also, see Rashi in Kesuvos 57a:
רש”י ד”ה הא קמ”ל-
“אבל כי פליגי תרי אמוראי בדין או באיסור והיתר כל חד אמר הכי מיסתבר טעמא אין כאן שקר כל חד וחד סברא דידיה קאמר מר יהיב טעמא להיתירא ומר יהיב טעמא לאיסורא מר מדמי מילתא למילתא הכי ומר מדמי ליה בעניינא אחרינא ואיכא למימר אלו ואלו דברי אלהים חיים הם זימנין דשייך האי טעמא וזימנין דשייך האי טעמא שהטעם מתהפך לפי שינוי הדברים בשינוי מועט.”http://www.hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=15&daf=57&format=pdf
I recall the Marshal in Yam Shel Shlomo writing about it in length, in his introduction to Masechet Chulin or Baba Kama..
A sefer called גדולי הדורות על משמר מנהג אשכנז brings from Rabbi Eliyohu Dessler that every group of Jews get influenced from the countries they live in with how to serve Hashem. The Russians are hot natured so they are chassidim. The Litvishe are cold so they learn the Torah in depth and Mussar. The Germans care about order, so they are very careful on minhogim. מכתב מאליהו חלק ד – ירושלים תשמח Page 129-130
See the דרשת הרן – דרוש שביעי similar on what you are saying according to my understanding – they could not understand Rabbi Eliezer, so they could not follow his view because once the Torah was given down to earth, we must understand things with human understanding not heavenly.
“I think the litvishe and chasidim argue on עת לעשות לה הפרו תורתך, make time when the Torah will be disrupted”
Which “chassidim” are you referring to? And which “Litvaks” are you referring to?
I can quote you from either of the sides the other way around..
The term of Chasid and Misnaged these days are just used as an identification, there are no true original Yesodos differences anymore…
GAON look at what I said in reply 1483697
I grew up in a chassidishe yeshiva where they were very medakdek on the smallest minhag for example wearing a kittel for Hoshana Rabba leining, but Reb Moshe is more accommodating.
Las,
Generally speaking, Rav Desslers’ ZTL views are known, he believed that there was really no great differences between Chasiddim and the GR”A . Most argue on that fact, including the ones that have a Mesorah directly to Rav Chaim of Volozhin…
gaon, how many shittos can you provide a citation/maare makom to that disagrees with Rav Dessler zt’l that laskern cited or other shittos?
Rav Moshe Feinstein wrote in the Introduction to Igros Moshe that the Sefer was not written for the public to follow his conclusions in practice. Rav Reuven Feinstein explained that this is the case because his father did not provide the details of the questions sufficiently. Rather, the whole purpose of the Sefer was to teach the reader how his father derived the answer from the sources that he quotes, to teach them how to analyze the source material.
Rainus, this explains the reason why Rav Moshe did not want his tshuvas translated.
laskern, if there’s any one central Nekudas Machlokes between Chassidim and their opponents it is whether or Chassidim are a deviant group.
Wizard,
” how many shittos can you provide a citation/maare makom to that disagrees with Rav Dessler zt’l”This form and thread is beyond the scope of this sensitive subject However, lets put it like this, Rav Dessler’s shitah (and his Son in law) is a new concept and Chidush – something that has historically not been said until recently. Anyone a bit familiar with the subject will tell you the same . There were major differences in the Yesodos of Kabalah. ( Tzimzum etc. though, nothing that pertains to us simple folks – all the rest are shtusim)
(I recall the Rebbe of Chabad also wrote something like it regarding The Nefesh haChaim and the Tanya regrading ‘Tzimzum’ – ..? ) .
If you want to know a bit more see the following link regarding the Nefesh HaChaim and the Ba’al HaTanya:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=47644&st=&pgnum=447
gaon, you haven’t demonstrated that Rav Dessler is anything other than the mainstream view on these issues.
Rand0m3x, I’m quite aware of both your points but they aren’t relevant to the multitude discussions of this thread.
Gaon, when was there ever a discussion between the parties about Tzimtzum. And, when do Chassidim discuss it among themselves to make it the central point. Also, why would a specific idea of how to work out a certain Sugya cause a movement?
Haleivi- I don’t think the differences in Kabbalah caused the split, I think each difference was seen as another way the chassidim were tearing down traditional litvishe yiddishkeit. Its well known that this particular difference caused the Gaon a lot of anguish. R Dessler’s attempt at reconciling the two shittos was, I think, no more than that, becuase a, it’s a shtikkel insufficient, b, doesn’t really shtim so well with either side.
Chassidism came about because of the fear of the pitfalls of kabbalah because of Shabsi Tzvi. By following the Rebbe’s view, they would be protected from faltering. The real sefardim learn currently kabbalah. It says when you are learning and stop in between and say how beautiful is this tree your endandangering your soul. The chasidic interpretation according the Kotzker is, do not sway from the teaching of the Torah to philosophy or kabbalah to understand how and why the tree grows.
This thread is just weird now…
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