September 16, 2010 12:22 am at 12:22 am #592366
I saw a report on foxnews.com that there are copepods in Boston’s tap water. I’m wondering a few things
1) is this a fact (I spoke to someone and they said it’s not, iwant a second opinion)
2) if this is true why haven’t i heard of a mass buying of filters in Boston (please don’t tell me they hold of R. Belsky, who i feel is an adam gadol but there are gadolim that argue anyway)September 16, 2010 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1094306
New York, Boston, Seattle, Tacoma, and San Francisco have unfiltered tap water (unlike almost every other city in the country.) Any unfiltered water system will have copepods.September 16, 2010 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1094307September 16, 2010 1:10 am at 1:10 am #1094308
Dont soda and juice manufacturer use tap water? Did anyone check it for copepods?September 16, 2010 2:17 am at 2:17 am #1094309
I know the web sites, you haven’t answered my questions though
they use filtered water (dont use regular tap water)September 16, 2010 2:43 am at 2:43 am #1094310
mbachur, the answer I gave to your question (1), was yes there are copepods in the Boston tap water.September 16, 2010 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #1094311
Any unfiltered water system will have copepods.
Am I to understand that every body of fresh water in the world is treif? Every river and stream? If that is the case, how fortunate we are to be living in this modern age where we can filter our water, not like the Tannaim and Ammoraim (and Moshe Rabbeinu) who never drank a kosher drop of water in their lives.
EDITEDSeptember 16, 2010 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1094312
yes…yes…they all have cocoa puffs and croatians…..
Did anyone check the water in the last few years since it was on top of the news?September 16, 2010 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1094313
Hi squeak. Sorry you got edited. I’ll ask a mod if you had any super vital info that didn’t make it.
“Copepods are probably the most common and abundant holoplanktonic organisms worldwide, occurring in all oceans, seas, estuaries, rivers and lakes.”
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copepod (first sentence)
“Copepods are a group of small crustaceans found in the sea and nearly every freshwater habitat.”September 16, 2010 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1094314
….and they’re assur to consume?September 16, 2010 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1094315
I never addressed that point. Rav Belsky says they’re muttir. Other Gedolim disagree. But you first comment implicating they are not so widespread was wrong.September 16, 2010 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1094316
Would cooking with unfiltered water that might contain copepods treif up our pots?September 16, 2010 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1094317
“I never addressed that point”
Let’s try to see the big picture.
You can’t pretend that these are disjointed facts. On the one hand, you have most RW Orthodox Rabbonim saying that it is assur to drink water with these creatures. On the other hand you have the statement that these creatures are present in all potable water sources. Do the math.September 16, 2010 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1094318
One is a matter of nature — whether they are present in various bodies of water, and the other is a religious matter — whether they render the water unkosher. The first issue I answered above. It is a simple observable fact. The second issue is a religious dispute, with the majority of Chareidi authorities ruling it unkosher, and others saying the water is kosher.
You are conflating the two issues by insisting that since the majority of those authorities render it unkosher, the first observable fact can’t be accepted. I don’t follow your logic on that.
As far as the historical nature of the water, all we know for a fact is they exist in the bodies of water today. Perhaps we can speculate they arrived at a later time than the Tannaim, etc. But whether that is the case or not, I don’t see how it effects the first two facts.September 16, 2010 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #1094319
The copepods have been there since Noach. However, they were not really identifiable until the invention of the microscope during the time of the early acharonim. Chazal and Rishonim could not have identified them, so those who are matir have many legs to stand on. (Aplogies for the pun.)September 16, 2010 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #1094320
Many of the northern suburbs of NY also have unfiltered water, as they tap directly off the NYC aquaducts.September 16, 2010 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1094321
charliehall, do you agree with my above comments regarding the prevalence of copepods (in almost all bodies of water), and that they will appear in Boston’s tap water — as well as the other few municipal tap water systems that are still authorized by the EPA to remain unfiltered?
Also, not to necessarily dispute the assertion, but how are we aware they have been in all the same bodies of water since Noach?September 16, 2010 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1094322
You’re dancing around the issue.
Unless you believe that the copepods were spotted immediately (i.e. they were not present prior to 2005), you are forced to choose from these conclusions:
1- Between the time copepods appeared in fresh water and 2005, all Jews ate shratzim
2- It is not assur to drink unfiltered fresh water, despite the copepods
3- B’derech nes no copepods ever made its way into the water consumed by a JewSeptember 16, 2010 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #1094323
squeak, why am I anymore forced to choose those options than are you? Are you disputing, or questioning, the two factual points I made?September 16, 2010 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1094324
I am equally forced to choose.
Are you happy now?
P.S. not your fault, but I edited to add a third choice after you posted, to preempt your usual nitpicking
P.P.S. Either you have great difficulty with reading comprehension, or you did not read what I wrote. If you had, you would notice that I made my post assuming both your points are factual.September 16, 2010 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1094325
Would you care to respond whether you disagree or question the basis of the factual point I made — specifically, regarding the prevalence of copepods?
EDIT: That’s the second time you edited an old post after I responded.
In any event, I don’t see us disagreeing on any points now that you withdrew from your first posts implication regarding the prevalence of copepods.September 16, 2010 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #1094326
Well then, since #3 was a ridiculous choice, and I know that you hold #2 is wrong, that leaves us with #1 for you. In which case, all your heilige zeides and bubbes, as well as the author of every sefer on the planet, suffered from massive timtum halev from eating shrimp on a daily basis. Nice of you to broadcast this information.September 16, 2010 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #1094327
squeak, you continue to make unfounded assumptions in this thread. Additionally, I am not forced to choose from your multiple choice questionnaire.September 16, 2010 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1094328
1. Please give an example of another choice available to you, given your facts.
2. Please describe what assumptions I have made in this thread. I claim that I have made none; I only stated the logical direction of the assumptions that you gave.September 16, 2010 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #1094329
squeak, What is your response to the question you pose to me?September 19, 2010 2:19 am at 2:19 am #1094330
squeak, the question you asked regarding the Tannaim, you can ask regarding Rav Moshe – who lived in NYC where we know the water supply has these creatures. I believe Rav Dovid said that question is a non-issue.September 19, 2010 2:38 am at 2:38 am #1094331
Can you please explain why its not an issue?September 19, 2010 2:41 am at 2:41 am #1094332
There is a simple difference between us and the previous generations, without getting involved in speculation about what the metzi’us was in those days.
A sheretz that grows inside the water is mutar to consume, I don’t have the SA offhand but its in the end of the third perek in Chullin and no one disagrees. However this only applies to such a sheretz that never left the water. The whole question only begins in our system of running water, where there are certain points where the water is filtered in ways that make it questionable as to whether it is considered the sheretz never left the water. I never dug very deeply into the shailah and I don’t know all the details – that is probably obvious, but I know that the question has a lot to do with this, and thus your problem about previous generations is resolved. If I didn’t live in New Jersey maybe I’d know more…September 19, 2010 3:05 am at 3:05 am #1094333
This blog deals with that question a little differently:
See from the sentence “How can the Almighty allow righteous people to unknowingly sin?” and further.September 19, 2010 3:42 am at 3:42 am #1094334
doesn’t it seem strange to you though that Hashem allowed earlier generations to eat something unkosher. I don’t think Hashem would put it in the teva of the world that people would unknowingly eat tarfus even if it’s not classified tarfus unless you know it is.September 19, 2010 3:43 am at 3:43 am #1094335
mbachur, your point was brought up in the teshuvas of the mattirim on this issue.September 19, 2010 3:44 am at 3:44 am #1094336
is your source a Gemara or a shulchan aruch, there are numerous gemaras where there is no machlokes (at least none that i know of) yet it’s not paskinedSeptember 19, 2010 4:10 am at 4:10 am #1094337
I am positive that this is paskened in th SA though I don’t have the source offhand, but I’ll look it up when I get a chance unless someone else here knows what I’m talking about and gets it first.
Agav, I disagree with you; if there is a halacha in the gemara that no one argues with, even if the SA doesn’t mention it, as a general rule every single rishon and acharon will tell you that it is the halacha and no one will argue on it.September 19, 2010 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1094338
Agav, I disagree with you; if there is a halacha in the gemara that no one argues with, even if the SA doesn’t mention it, as a general rule every single rishon and acharon will tell you that it is the halacha and no one will argue on it.
so your saying you know it’s a halacha b/c every single rishon or acharon says it’s halacha.
Its only b/c the rishon or acharon says not b/c a tanna or amora said, it doesn’t need to be in the SASeptember 19, 2010 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1094339
Catfish.September 19, 2010 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1094340
It’s halacha because the gemara says it. All I said is that in general no rishon or acharon would have the pleitzus to argue on anything that is mefurash in the gemara without a machlokes, so one can assume that such a thing is halacha because the gemara says so, regardless of whether or not the SA mentions it. And it happens to be the SA does bring down this halacha, I just didn’t have a chance to look it up yet.September 19, 2010 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #1094341
It’s halacha because the gemara says it
I’m sorry we don’t follow halacha based on what the gemara says we follow it based on halacha (Rambam, SA, Tur, MB)September 19, 2010 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1094342
Ok, that’s what you hold. I disagree, and have my rebbi and rav to back me up. Just wondering, what exactly is your basis for saying the Rambam, SA etc. define the halacha? Obviously for someone who is ignorant these are worthy poskim to rely on, but I’d like to know what basis you have for assuming that they actually determine the halacha and not the gemara.
Oh, and the SA brings this halacha in YD 84:1. Though the real source of the halacha is Chullin 67a…September 19, 2010 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #1094343
yitayningwut – I addressed that issue with you in June. I posted then:
The Gedolim in the days of the Shulchan Aruch and shortly thereafter have agreed to accept the psakim of the mechaber and the Rema as authoritative. The Shach writes that one cannot even claim “kim li” against a psak of the Shulchan Aruch. This is akin to accepting someone as your “Rebbi”, where you follow his psakim. This is the same thing that happened when, let’s say, Klal Yisroel decided that the period of Chazal has ended after the 7th generraiton of Amorayim (Mar Zutra, Mar bar Rav Ashi, etc), and nobody from here on in can add to the Gemora. There was no “halachah lmoshe misinai” that told us that the Gemora was sealed; it was the accepted reality told to us by our Gedolim. The same thing applies to accepting the Shulchan Aruch and Rema.
You responded then that your rav/rebbe “disagree”, but never explained on what authority they so disagree.September 19, 2010 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #1094344
You assume that the gedolim accepted it in the manner of the gemara, and you are coming from a Shach. One can argue on the Shach. Besides, the Shach and many poskim in various places disagree with the mechaber’s psak, something which is extremely rare with the rishonim in regard to the gemara, so clearly it hasn’t been accepted with the same authority. If I remember correctly I made these points last time as well. If you wish to say it is completely binding than the burden of proof is upon you – to say klal yisroel is bound by something they weren’t previously bound by. And you have not provided a satisfactory proof in my opinion.
Either way, that was not really my point here. I was saying to mbachur that in places where the SA mentions nothing about a particular case, and the case is mefurash in the gemara with no one arguing, that one may assume the halacha is like that gemara. I don’t think you will disagree with that as vigorously as with my earlier argument.September 19, 2010 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1094345
One can argue on the Shach.
One can argue on a Shach. But you or I are not the one who can argue on a Shach. The Shach says you can’t claim a Kim Li against a psak of the Shulchan Aruch. Who disagrees (with maare makom) with the Shach?
I don’t take exception to your point towards mbachur.September 20, 2010 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1094346
Now you are saying I can’t argue on a Shach. Why not? Can my rebbi or rav argue on a Shach? From what I was taught, ein l’dayan ladun ela ma she’einav ro’os technically applies even against the Shulchan Aruch. And even if I don’t have a source, still, you are the one who has to prove it, not me, and that includes proving your assumtion that I have to agree with the Shach. I have a chazaka d’me’ikara on my side, and al hamachmir le’havi r’aya.September 20, 2010 12:08 am at 12:08 am #1094347
SJSinNYC – care to elucidate? catfish?September 20, 2010 12:08 am at 12:08 am #1094348
What’s your proof you can’t argue on a Gemorah?September 20, 2010 12:26 am at 12:26 am #1094349
No proof. However, all the rishonim were nearly always afraid to, though there are certainly rare exceptions. I do not think that ‘klal yisroel accepted it and therefore it is authoritative’. I simply think it is unwise, very unwise, being that the amoraim knew a lot more than us, whether with regard to obscure braisos, or kabalos from their rabbeim since Moshe. Ma sh’ein kein the mechaber, as big of a giant as he was, had in front of him the same sugya of gemara with rishonim that I do, and a bar hachi has every right to utilize the claim of ein l’dayan… and all we can say is yiftach b’doro k’shmuel b’doro… The only time we cannot even theoretically argue is against a psak made by the beis din hagadol, because that doesn’t just clarify the halacha, it defines it. And therefore only on that is there a parsha of lo sasur and zakein mamrei, as is explicit in the rishonim.September 20, 2010 12:32 am at 12:32 am #1094350
IOW, your logic to argue against the Shulchan Aruch works to allow you to argue against the Mishna and Gemorah.September 20, 2010 12:42 am at 12:42 am #1094351
Theoretically, yes. Though I wouldn’t do it, as I explained.September 20, 2010 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1094352
Running along the same lines, for the same reasons you wouldn’t do it, you shouldn’t against the Shulchan Aruch. Even working within your thinking here.September 20, 2010 1:19 am at 1:19 am #1094353
You responded then that your rav/rebbe “disagree”, but never explained on what authority they so disagree.
thank you Kasha i was going to ask that when i got a chance
Obviously for someone who is ignorant these are worthy poskim to rely on, but I’d like to know what basis you have for assuming that they actually determine the halacha and not the gemara.
are you saying that you are on the level of these poskim and that you know the gemara just as well if not better than these poskim?
it seems like it from all your posts.September 20, 2010 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1094354
I already explained the difference between the gemara and the SA. The SA is working with exactly the same thing we have, i.e. the gemara and the rishonim. Anyone who knows the sugya has the right to be machri’a one way or the other. I don’t need a source for this, you need to prove otherwise if you want to be mechadesh a new Torah that didn’t exist up until 500 years ago. If one doesn’t know the sugya well enough he would have to be foolish and reckless to do so. If you want to know if you are a person who can learn through a sugya properly, find someone who knows shas and poskim and ask him if he thinks you are capable.
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