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  • #1170340

    Health
    Participant

    Trying my best- It is possible R’ Moshe meant at least two of the three (not emigrated from Russia). The Shulchan Aruch has similar criteria for a Yomim Norayim Chazan. So your sarcastic answer is “up-geshlogged”. I pretty sure you and R’ Moshe don’t have the same criteria of the definition of “Talmid Chochum”. Everyone thinks their Rabbi/Rosh Yeshiva is “Daas Torah”; there is nothing wrong with this, but to invoke this Teshuva to say anybody who disagrees with MY philosophy is outside the “Torah Camp”, is misusing & misinterpreting it.

    #1170341

    fabie
    Member

    Stimulating conversation!

    #1170342

    charliehall
    Participant

    Trying my best,

    I didn’t ask your opinion on Land for Peace, I’m asking whether you think that someone who opposes Land for Peace is within the Torah camp.

    #1170343

    Health: What makes you think you can elaborate better than Rav Moshe what Rav Moshe meant? And if you can include your own additional criteria to supplement what Rav Moshe actually said, what makes you think adding emigrating from Russia is any less applicable than your personal new criteria?

    Bottom line is Rav Moshe said what Rav Moshe meant and doesn’t need your nor my criteria to supplement his own.

    charliehall: Like I’ve previously said, if you have Gedolei Yisroel supporting a position, you can’t go wrong following it.

    Let’s be truthful folks. Some people here obviously don’t like what Rav Moshe said. Rather than outright admit that, or even provide another Godol who disagrees, they engage in all sorts of sophistry to reinterpret, deny, and/or to otherwise conceal that their issue is with what Rav Moshe said very loudly and clearly!

    ’nuff said.

    #1170344

    Health
    Participant

    All R’ Moshe said was “Talmid Chochum”. I have my criteria what that means. I don’t expect you to see things from someone else’s point of view. If you want I can play devil’s advocate -anyone who ever learnt in a yeshiva is a “Talmid chochum”. This is the reason that there is so much machlokes in Klal Yisroel -everyone has to be right in their shitta. It’s not enough to say “Aylo V’alo Divrei Elokim Chaim”. If you dare to disagree with me -you are Not in the “Torah camp”. So if you want to say your Rosh Yeshiva is “Daas Torah”, fine. But don’t make out a posek who doesn’t feel that way, isn’t allowed to have their own opinion. Please review the Mishna in Avos about Machlokes.

    #1170345

    charliehall
    Participant

    Trying my best,

    I mentioned a gedol who disagrees in the very first comment after you started the thread.

    #1170346

    charliehall: WADR, you offered no citation or substantiation of that claim.

    Additionally see my post on the previous page of this thread that begins with the sentence “You need to figure out who the bigger Gedolim are.”

    #1170348

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    TMB: Don’t make this into a “mine is bigger than yours” contest.

    #1170349

    Godol mimenu b’chochma ubaminyan is an assessment that it legitimately made. And as Rav Shach writes – if you dont know who to follow, follow whoever is greater – and, he adds, you can of course tell who is greater. If you yourself dont know, then thats fine – not everyone can know the answer to all questions they encounter – but why in the world should you say nobody else can know? If you cant comapre levels then how are you to know that someone is a godol? Part of knowing who to follow is to know who is greater.

    #1170350

    charliehall
    Participant

    Trying my best,

    Regarding whom to follow: The Mishnah answers this: “aseh lecha rav”. Any Orthodox Rabbi with a connection to the mesorah is legitimate to follow; mine happens to have been a talmid of Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l and always paskens according to The Rav whenever he heard The Rav’s opinion on a particular matter.

    #1170352

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Moshe zt’l, at a convention of the Agudas HaRabbonim, said that if today’s gedolim got together and issue a kol koreh decision they have the power as as if the Sanhedrin/Beis Din HaGodol sitting in the Lishkas HaGazis in the Beis HaMikdash issued a decree. (Related by Harav Yaakov Feitman shlit”a, Bais Yehuda Tzvi of Cedarhurst.)

    #1170353

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, if all of the gedolim would get together and agree on something Mashiach would come. Lok what happened when the Mahari Beirav tried to re-institute semicha.

    #1170354

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Moshe didn’t condition it on it having to be “all”.

    #1170355

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Sanhedrin did not require unanimity to issue a ruling, decree or verdict.

    #1170356

    Joseph
    Participant

    Torah Tape #24

    Question: In the story where Yoshiyahu Hamelech did not allow Paroh Necheh to pass through Eretz Yisroel and as a result, it led to his death, what wrong did Yoshiyahu commit by not consulting Yirmiyahu, if he used his own judgment to make his decision?

    #1170358

    Joseph
    Participant

    <bump>

    #1170359

    Rav Aharon Kotler , already warned back in the 50s, that the greatest threat facing Jewry is [not inter-marriage or assimilation, but rather] perversion of the Torah,

    (Mishnas Reb Aharon 1:2,3:6).

    #1170360

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, was there a particular reason you posted this now? Or was it because it’s always a message the oilam needs to be reminded of?

    #1170361

    Joseph
    Participant

    It’s a message we can all be reminded of, lilmod. Reading through the comment history of this thread makes that pretty clear.

    #1467636

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Avigdor Miller on Daas Torah

    Q: In the story where Yoshiyahu Hamelech did not allow Paroh Nechoh to pass through Eretz Yisroel and as a result, it led to his death, what wrong did Yoshiyahu commit by not consulting Yirmiyahu, if he used his own judgement to make his decision?

    A: To come to a decision in Torah or a decision in public policy, you must use all the facilities at your disposal. Suppose a person is lost. He’s sitting in his car. He’s lost. So, the common sense procedure is, the first gas station or the first policeman he meets, he asks directions. To ignore such a simple expedient means that this man is reckless – he may wander lost the whole day! 

    Now, in Torah matters it’s common sense that the great Torah authorities are the ones most competent to guide the people. But here we have to add, not only in Torah matters, but in all matters of public policy, the gedolei yisroel are the ones most fitted for this function. 

    People don’t understand that. The gedolei yisroel are the ones who should make public policy!  People think, let’s say, that Rav Kamenetzky in Monsey or Rav Moshe Feinstein on the East Side, they are good for asking them a question in halacha, especially when you want a kulah, a leniency. You call them up and he says yes, so now you can say “Rav Moshe Feinstein said it’s muttar.” That’s all you need. But to ask him about a matter of public policy? Not necessary, you think, because my head is as good as his head. 

    But that’s a fallacy! Because these people have have tens of thousands of precedents that they are studying. The Torah is full of precedents, the Gemara is full of precedents. Each precedent teaches a lesson. Now, even if they don’t think of the source; let’s say you ask Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky, “Should the State of Israel do this or that?” so even though he doesn’t think of the blatt gemara, or the chapter that it is, but he has patterns in his mind. The Gadol has patterns in his mind, established according to the precedents he studies. So, automatically, when he advises, he’s following the patterns in his mind, Torah patterns. And the Torah is the ultimate source of wisdom. 

    Of course, if you want to ask how you can repair your leaking radiator, don’t go to him. But if you have questions relating to matters of public policy, of behaviors of communities, or of how to deal with people, there are so many precedents in the Torah, that a Gadol automatically knows what to do. But if you ignore the opportunities, it means you are reckless, because it means that you disregard the Torah as the real source of advice. By disregarding the Torah as the true source of advice and relying merely on your own inferior abilities, that’s considered a refusal to listen. Because listening means to listen to the ones who are most competent.

    Tape # 24 (May 1974)

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