Dating question

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  • #618188
    123jew
    Participant

    I am a member of sawyouatsinai. I recently got a mutual acceptance. Within the first day the guy called me and we arranged a date. I wasn’t so sure if he was going to come and pick me up or if we were going to meet there, so at the end of the conversation I asked him. He said we should meet there. I am impressed he called me within the first 24 hours, so I know he is serious but at the same time I am a little concerned. Should I view this as weird? I would like to mention he said he was shy on his profile so maybe he is shy so he rather meet at the hotel. In addition, it’s my first date and I’m not so sure what to wear. Should I wear something a little less fancy because we are meeting there or still shabbos clothes?

    #1176414
    Joseph
    Participant

    In Eretz Yisroel the standard is that the dating couple meet at the site they’re going to.

    #1176415
    charliehall
    Participant

    Nothing wrong with meeting at the date site, particularly for a first date. Wear something that makes you comfortable. Just be yourself and enjoy it — remember that he may be just as nervous as you are! And ALWAYS be honest in dating.

    #1176417
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    As a father, my first response is “?What? you’re going to a hotel on a first date?”

    But seriously, I preferred that my daughters who were not living at home when they were dating, not have males come to their apartments and meet in a public place for safety reasons.

    #1176418

    Be relaxed he’s just as nervous as you are. Be Matzliach if it’s your zivug

    #1176419
    TRUEBT
    Participant

    I disagree with charliehall about “wear something that makes you comfortable.” If in your picture on SYAS you were wearing Shabbos clothing and makeup, you need to wear that on the first date. G-d Willing there will be a second date and then you can wear comfortable clothing. He will be checking to see if your picture was “enhanced” -and you should do the same.

    And yes, it is totally normal to meet in a hotel lobby and talk.

    I would agree with charlihall about being honest, but you don’t need to answer every question you are asked. My rule of thumb is don’t ask or answer anything you wouldn’t want on page 1 of The New York Times on a first date. Feel free to change the subject.

    Ask him to describe what Shabbos afternoon is like on a long summer Shabbos or what Saturday night is like on a short winter Shabbos. Ask him about all of his siblings and tell him about all of yours. The point of the conversation is to try and determine whether shy means he is emotionally unavailable. If you smile and are careful to be non-threatening, will he open up and tell you the things that his casual acquaintances know about him?

    #1176420
    Joseph
    Participant

    TRUEBT, How, on a first date, do you determine if he or she is “emotionally unavailable”? Specifically.

    #1176421
    Sparkly
    Member

    Joseph – the way they act.

    #1176422
    Joseph
    Participant

    Which act shows emotional availability and which act shows emotional unavailability, on a first date?

    #1176423
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Are you in Israel or the US? As someone who has dated extensively in both countries, in Israel (as Joseph wrote) it’s normal to meet at a hotel lobby. In the US, the guy always picked me up. But I agree with CTlawyer that it is much safer to meet the guy somewhere and not have him pick you up for a first date. I think this is particularly true for a SYAS shidduch. Since everything takes place over a computer, you really have no idea who the guy is and he has no one “to answer to”. It’s kind of like the difference between taking a private taxi vs. a taxi driver who works for a company. I always thought there was something a bit strange and dangerous about having a strange guy pick me up.

    One thing that I personally find inappropriate is when the guy expects me to travel (to another city) to meet him. In my opinion, the guy should travel to meet the girl and it is setting a bad precedent for the relationship if she has to travel to meet him. The only exception to this rule would be if he lives in the NY/NJ area and she lives very far away (Chicago, Canada, etc.) That is my opinion; others will disagree.

    But if you are meeting locally, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the two of you meeting at the dating location.

    #1176424
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Wear whatever you would normally wear on a first date, which should generally be Shabbos clothes. You don’t have to dress like your picture – for example, if you were wearing chasuna clothes in the wedding, you don’t have to wear chasuna clothes to the date.

    #1176425
    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, why are you of the opinion that it is “inappropriate” for the guy to expect the girl to travel to his city for the date? What makes the reverse more appropriate and what “bad precedent” is established otherwise? And why does NY/NJ change in this regard, per your opinion?

    #1176426
    absan
    Participant

    interesting…We are getting different opinions from guys and girls everyone speaks whats right for them. But honestly there is no right or wrong. If you like each others you will attract each others and what your wearing or where your dating wont make that big difference.what I think you should realy be looking for his personality cause that will not change.

    #1176427
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Absan, how do you know who is a guy and who is a girl?

    Everyone agreed that it was okay to meet at a hotel, and that was the main issue.

    In terms of clothes, I don’t think it makes much of a difference as long as you aren’t wearing denim and sneakers. But if someone normally wears Shabbos clothes, she shouldn’t think that she is supposed to wear weekday clothes just because he is not picking her up. And if someone is asking already, I think it’s preferable to wear Shabbos clothes on a date.

    #1176428
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, it’s the guy’s job to pick up the girl. It has to do with the differences between a guy and a girl in a relationship, and it’s not good for a relationship to do things differently. Read “Men are from Mars; women are from Venus.” I don’t think he discusses that specifically, but I think he talks about similar things.

    A girl I know asked a Rav about travelling for Shidduchim and she was told that girls aren’t supposed to travel for shidduchim. The guy is the one who is missing his rib, and he needs to find it. It’s not good for guys if they have the attitude that “there are so many girls to date, I don’t need to travel in order to date.” He has to realize that the girl is worth travelling for. If he doesn’t realize that, then he is not someone I want to go out with.

    #1176429
    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, after that explanation, why your differentiation on this point for NY/NJ?

    Also, if the guy is in Kollel and him travelling will result in Bitul Torah that could be alleviated if she came to his town, would you be more amenable to her travelling rather than him? (I would.)

    #1176430
    Sparkly
    Member

    Joseph – read lilmod ulelamaid same applies.

    #1176431
    Person1
    Member

    LU every time I read your post I get angrier. Let me first say that I’ve asked a girl to travel only twice and I hated it. nevertheless the assumptions you make on your post are just not true.

    Here is the reasoning you gave: 1. Men are from Mars agrees with what you said 2. a rav told your friend what you said 3. Guys are asking girls to travel to their place because they don’t value them enough.

    I don’t need to answer 1 and 2. As for 3, here’s a scenerio for you. It’s busy time at college. I’ve travelled to the girl’s place on the first three dates, Therefore I missed 3 days of studies. I have tons of homework. So I ask the girl to travel. Does that mean my attitude is “there are so many girls to date, I don’t need to travel in order to date.”

    The thing is, guys avoid dating girls who live out of town. They avoid dating during exam saeason. They scedule one date a week. This is what they actually do when it’s impossible for them to spend whole days on the road. It’s not so bad if the girls made it easier on them from time to time.

    #1176432
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph – Actually, if that’s his reason, it would make me very nervous. I would react the same way I did when I checked out a divorced guy with several kids and was told that he learns full-time. When I asked how he supports his kids, I was told that he doesn’t because he is learning.

    I think learning is very important, BUT not at the expense of fulfilling one’s obligations to one’s family or potential family. I would want to marry someone who loves learning but is willing to close his sefarim when necessary to fulfill his obligations to others around him, as the Gedolim always do.

    If he can take time away from learning to go on a date, he can also take time to travel. If he is unwilling to do so, that would be a bright red flag to me!!

    #1176433
    Person1
    Member

    And now I’ve calm down and am uncomfortable to read the angry words. I’m Sure you meant well but I just think you’re too hard on the guys.

    #1176434
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Person1: 1. I was referring to the first date only. I may have forgotten to mention that. If so, I apologize. I had meant to mention that.

    2. Regarding what you wrote: “Does that mean my attitude is “there are so many girls to date, I don’t need to travel in order to date.””

    When I wrote about that attitude, I was thinking of a specific person I know (a mother of boys) who TOLD me that she would not have her boys travel an hour and a half (maybe it’s two hours- not sure) from Queens to Lakewood because there are so many girls in NY, why should they have to travel. She told me that I have to be willing to travel to meet any boy that I go out with for the same reason. I don’t agree. I was very offended at being told that.I also thought it was spoiling her boys for her to feed them with that attitude. That is what my comment was in response to (although I guess you couldn’t have known that!). If you thought I meant something different, I apologize.

    3. I didn’t mean points 1,2. or 3 to be taken as “proof”. I had specifically written that others may disagree with me. We are not talking about the type of things that have clear answers. This is my opinion. I feel very strongly about it, but it’s not something I can PROVE. The most I can do is to bring supports. I think that is true of most things that have to do with differences between men and women (except of course for those things that are clearly listed in the Torah, of which there are not very many).

    #1176435
    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, can you clarify about your differentiation regarding NY/NJ on the topic under discussion?

    #1176436
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Person1: “And now I’ve calm down and am uncomfortable to read the angry words. I’m Sure you meant well but I just think you’re too hard on the guys.”

    I’m sorry if I sounded like I was being too hard on the guys. Here’s where I was coming from: I have been told a few times (not too many Baruch Hashem) that if I wanted to go out with a specific boy, I had to travel to meet him, because there are so many boys in New York, why would he be willing to travel an hour and a half to go out with you?

    I found that extremely offensive. I would hope that a guy who is going out with me is going out with me because he wants to go out with ME in particular, and he doesn’t just think that all girls are the same and there’s millions of them and therefore he should choose his dates based on geography.

    Personally, I would be nervous about going out with a guy who is not willing to travel an hour and a half to meet me. It’s not like I was living somewhere random and far out. And it’s also not like I had a car and could travel so easily.

    Again, I’m talking about a first date and a relatively small distance. I apologize if that wasn’t clear.

    I just don’t like the way some people talk as though girls should be thankful that someone wants to go out with them and they have to be willing to do everything!

    #1176437
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph: “lilmod, after that explanation, why your differentiation on this point for NY/NJ?”

    Because NY/NJ is considered the center of the American Jewish world in general and the American Jewish dating world in particular. If someone lives in a far-out non-typical place, it makes sense to say that she should have to travel for dating. However, if the girl is already in NY/NJ, I don’t see why she should have to travel.

    In Israel, if the boys lives in Yerushalayim and I live outside Yerushalayim, I would expect to travel to Yerushalayim, but if I lived in Yerushalayim and he lived outside of Yerushalayim, I would expect him to travel to Yerushalayim.

    As I wrote in my original post, I am sure some will disagree with me. I realize the NY/NJ point in particular was subjective, but that is how I feel.

    #1176438
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Person1 – I hope you’re not upset anymore! Please let me know either way. I didn’t mean to offend anyone, and I would like to hear your point of view on the topic.

    #1176439
    Person1
    Member

    LU no I’m sorry I should have asked you to clearify before going on a rant. Thank you for explaining.

    I don’t like the attitude you describe either. I’ve never heard of a guy who asked a girl to travel on a first date. On one case a guy told the shadchan that he couldn’t date because he’s to busy and the girl offered herself to travel.

    #1176440
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Person1: “I don’t like the attitude you describe either. I’ve never heard of a guy who asked a girl to travel on a first date. On one case a guy told the shadchan that he couldn’t date because he’s to busy and the girl offered herself to travel.”

    Thank you for the validation! I feel better now – I was beginning to feel like I was selfish for expecting the guy to travel the first time. Honestly, I don’t think it’s about selfishness, but my concern about what it shows about the guy. And like I said, I don’t think it’s a good start for a relationship. A girl at Neve once told me that her teacher told her that it’s good for her relationship with her boyfriend for her to allow him to give to her because as Rav Dessler says, giving leads to love.

    #1176441
    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    I think it’s more tznius and more safe to meet the guy at a public meeting place. He should, though, escort you back to your home, after the date. That’s the real chivalry.

    #1176442
    Joseph
    Participant

    Chivalry is a Christian value completely anathema to Jewish values.

    #1176443
    Person1
    Member

    Joseph please explain.

    #1176444
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph – not true. btw, I have heard that according to Halacha, since common courtesy nowadays is that the guy let the girl go first, he is SUPPOSED to let her go in front of him even though according to tznius it should be the other way. Apparently, we do believe in chivalry.

    #1176445
    Joseph
    Participant

    limud, it is assur for him to let her go first or walk behind her. Does anyone here disregard Shulchan Aruch? No posek, absolutely no one, argues against Shulchan Aruch on the issur against walking behind a woman.

    Jews do not follow Christian “courtesies”.

    #1176446
    Person1
    Member

    Just because it’s christian doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

    #1176447
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph – we don’t always posken according to the Shulchan Aruch. In terms of this specific issue, Rav Frand has a recorded shiur on the topic that I’m sure you could get a hold of. I believe that Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach has a teshuva on it.

    #1176448
    Joseph
    Participant

    Neither Rav Shlomo Zalman nor Rav Frand were ever mattir walking behind a woman. No posek ever disagreed with the Mechaber and all the poskim who state it is assur l’halacha.

    #1176449
    zogt_besser
    Participant

    It’s a bit more complicated than that. On this topic from the website ‘revach’ (which is operated by big talmidei chachamim):

    “Today, says the Tzitz Eliezer (and Rav Vosner ybc”l concurs), in a situation where you’d like to be respectful and courteous, you need not refrain from doing so because of this gemara, and we can rely on the Trumas HaDeshen.”

    #1176450
    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    The Tzitz Eliezer was matir.

    But by chivalry, we mean things like a man opening the door for a woman, a man paying the bill, etc.

    Surely you wouldn’t object to a husband buying his wife flowers?

    #1176451
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    In the original case we were talking about (the guy escorting the girl home) it’s a safety issue. That is part of chivalry. So is taking care of his wife after she gives birth, which I think I heard there are halachos about, although I’m not sure. Even if there aren’t specific halachos, it’s clearly a chiyuv in any case.

    #1176452
    Joseph
    Participant

    The Oxford English Dictionary’s first definition of chivalry is:

    The medieval knightly system with its religious, moral, and social code.

    It is based on Christian moral values.

    Why shouldn’t the girl open the door for her date? Because the Christians do it the other way so you’re going to now call it a “common courtesy” based on how the goyim live? There is no logical reason why the girl should not open the door for her date rather than vice versa other than to follow the common goyish way.

    If you can think of another good reason why she shouldn’t open the door for him, please let me know.

    #1176453
    zogt_besser
    Participant

    Given the sorry state of men and masculinity in today’s society, these acts of chivalry seem like a good idea. Opening a car door for a woman might not be mandated by halacha, but it’s a small way to show you care about them, and makes them feel taken care of (which is important because women tend to be more nurturing).

    #1176454
    Joseph
    Participant

    There’s an equally sorry state of femininity, with society pushing women to become like men. Given women’s nurturing nature, as you said, it would make sense to stress that by having them take care of, and show care to, their husband (or date) by opening the door for him.

    #1176455
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I just spent $3.00 to purchase a download of Rav Frand’s shiur entitled “Nasso 20- Walking behind a woman” from the Yad Yechiel website.

    He first quotes the Gemara, Rambam and Shulchan Aruch who say that it is assur to walk behind a woman. He then brings the Tzitz Eliezer who raises the question regarding what to do if you encounter an Eishes Chaveir (wife of a Talmid Chacham). On the one hand, there is an obligation to show honor to the wife of a Talmid Chacham which would entail letting her go first. On the other hand, it is forbidden for a man to walk behind a woman.

    The Tzitz Eliezer quotes the Trumas Hadeshen who states that he should let her go first since today we are not so careful not to walk behind women in general. The Tzitz Eliezer is puzzled by this – why should that make a difference? He came up with the following svara to explain the Trumas Hadeshen- it used to be that women did not go out and it was unusual to find a woman in the street so the sight of a woman was likely to lead to hirhur. However, today (in the Trumas Hadeshen’s times) it had become normal for women to be out on the streets, so it was no longer a problem to walk behind a woman.

    The Tzitz Eliezer wrote his svara to Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach who was maskim to (accepted) it. Rav Shlomo Zalman also added that when manners dictate letting the woman go first, one should do so.

    Rav Frand also added that Rav Dovid (I’m not sure who that is, but the guys present probably know) would tell bochurim when they were dating to hold open the door for the girl even though this would entail walking behind her. (although personally, I don’t see why this has to be the case. Why can’t she walk through the doorway and then move to the side?, but in any case, that seemed to be his assumption)

    If anyone wants to listen to the shiur, they can purchase the download for $3.00. Please don’t argue with me about the topic until you have listened to the shiur.

    #1176456
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Chivalry: 2. The qualifications of a knight, as valor, nobility, fairness, courtesy, respect for women, protection of the poor, etc.

    3.The demonstration of any of the knightly qualities.

    Source: Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary.

    There were approximately five definitions listed. None mentioned christianity.

    Since we are Americans, it seems to me that the definition in Webster’s is more relevant to us than the one in Oxford’s.

    #1176457
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph: “There’s an equally sorry state of femininity, with society pushing women to become like men. Given women’s nurturing nature, as you said, it would make sense to stress that by having them take care of, and show care to, their husband (or date) by opening the door for him.”

    I agree (to some degree) with the first part, but I don’t think that’s the way to show nurturing. The ways that women show nurturing to men is different than the ways that men give to women. That’s why the term nurturing is used specifically for women and giving is used for men. The two do not have the same meaning and entail different things.

    #1176458
    Joseph
    Participant

    We have both British and Americans here. And Americans get this word from the English. And Oxford is the authoritative source for English. It clearly is derived from Christian values. It is also deeply associated with warfare. Even if they throw in some nuggets with additional definitions.

    #1176459
    zogt_besser
    Participant

    Joseph: Chivalrous acts are meant to prove that a man has certain good middos that we wouldn’t necessary expect; they aren’t natural. Specifically, in being chivalrous, a man says to the woman that he’s not just going to bring home the bacon and provide for her financially, but also cares about more than just her survival, and will anticipate her needs (not just hand her a paycheck and go watch football). A man has to prove these middos thru chivalry, but a woman does not because she tends to have them more innately.

    #1176460
    zogt_besser
    Participant

    I think chivalry is deeply rooted in human nature and innate gender differences. It makes sense and it works, notwithstanding certain feminist protestations. chochma bagoyim taamin… Given all that, why shouldn’t frum Jews do the same?

    #1176461
    Joseph
    Participant

    Chivalrous acts are meant to prove that a man has certain good middos that we wouldn’t necessary expect; they aren’t natural.

    zogt_besser: It is both silly and incorrect to assert that men are generally more middos-challenged than women and thus need to prove their good middos more than women.

    In any event, your equation of middos with chivalry is contrary to the first definition given by Oxford as well as its listed etymology, which attaches religious significance (i.e. Christian) to it. Why do you also think the term is directly associated with knights (rather than the general public) who were Middle Ages warriors in Christian countries, at a time when warriors fought under the crosses flag?

    #1176462
    Sparkly
    Member

    lilmod ulelamaid – Why wouldnt men be allowed to walk behind women?

    #1176463
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Sparkly, good question. The answer is because the Gemara and Shulchan Aruch say that it’s assur.

    Rav Frand explains one possible reason behind it: A man is not likely to stare at a woman if he thinks she will notice, but if he is behind her, she won’t notice.

    L’maaseh, he says that the Poskim say that today the halachos are different because there are so many women on the streets today. He says that on a date, a guy should let the girl go first. I wasn’t clear on what the halacha is if you’re just walking down the street or getting on a bus and you’re not a date.

    Personally, I try to be careful when I’m walking down the street or getting on a bus not to walk in front of men, but that may be a chumra on my part (and obviously, it’s not even always possible).

    It probably is a good idea though to try to be careful when getting on a bus, because unless your skirt is super-long, it may go up when climbing the stairs.

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