Davening like a horse to the barn πŸ“–πŸŽ

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  • #1317811

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Some friendly comments for our esteemed baalei tefilla… not you, the other ones, don’t worry:

    You can’t just say the first pasuk and last pasuk of a perek of tehillim in pesukei d’zimra and mumble a bit in between. You should say everything. Yes I was five minutes late, so it’s my fault, but reaching yishtabach just 10 minutes after the start time of davening? C’mon! The pesukim are supposed to get us in a proper frame of mind for davening, not leave us breathless by barchu. Then I adjust my tefillin and you’re at v’chulam poschim already? Also, tachanun through aleinu is not a race. There’s no stopwatch, and no world record to set. Let’s not be like horses racing back to the barn. Where’s the fire?

    Whew! Thanks for listening. I feel better now. I can be pretty fast when I need to be, but that was crazy.

    #1317813

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Ever daven at a Matzah Minyan?

    #1317815

    Meno
    Participant

    Where’s the fire?

    I was once at a minyan where a guy actually yelled that out in the middle of davening.

    Was that you?

    #1317817

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Was it a barnfire?

    #1317820

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    Ever daven at a Matzah Minyan?

    Been to – twice, davened at – once. The first time I discovered that it was not for me, and the second time was on Purim, and I didn’t realize it was “that” minyan until they were almost to krias Shema by the time I had my tefillin on. I said brachos, then waited for the next minyan to start.

    #1317821

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Meno,

    Was that you?

    Oh I wish!

    #1317824

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Why does it take you so long to put your tefillin on?

    #1317829

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    What is a Matzah Minyan? (18 minute Shachris?)

    #1317830

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    My minyan this morning was done in about 35 minutes (B”H they allowed some time for keriyas Shema and Shemoneh Esrei – the rav was there after all, but the rest was breakneck speed). To daven in ~20 minutes a la “matza minyan” is just insane.

    #1317834

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    Why does it take you so long to put your tefillin on?

    I’m ambidextrous and arm wrestle myself each morning to see which one is weaker that morning.

    #1317833

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I will say the following , Many shuls have to deal with differnt factions on Davening, Some people like longer davenings and others need to get to work and if you dont try to satisfy as many people as you can there might not be a mInyan. The guy who will late to work might not come

    #1317839

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Matza Minyan = 18 minutes and out.

    Avram in MD – I understand your point…just 2 questions. Does the davening start with Brochos or R’ Yishmael? Nussach Ashkenaz or Nussach Sfard?

    I have found hat most weekday minyanim take between 30 – 35 minutes.

    #1317846

    scy4851
    Participant

    When I lived in Monsey, the 1st minyan in Beis Yisroel was very fast.
    They used to say “18 minutes from hoidu to the George Washington Bridge”

    #1317840

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    others need to get to work

    So they can leave during chazaras hashatz if they have to. Do you think there is a point where it’s just too fast to be respectful?

    #1317855

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    iasicrmma,

    Does the davening start with Brochos or R’ Yishmael?

    Brachos.

    Nussach Ashkenaz or Nussach Sfard?

    Ashkenaz.

    I have found hat most weekday minyanim take between 30 – 35 minutes.

    It’s borderline from my perspective, but it can be sufficent time if the chazaras hashatz is recited quickly to allow the rest of the davening to go at a sane, albeit fast clip. I’ve encountered 40-45 minutes as the norm, but my sample size may be smaller than yours.

    #1317861

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Avram

    Ive been on these discussions and one of 2 things happen either the people who need to go complain and demand a faster minyan or they quietly vote with their feet and dont come . In many places there are plenty of people for a minyan and its not a problem, but others no so much especially where you have to beg and plead people to come

    40-45 Mins will only cut it in a Yeshivish Minyan where people dont have to rush

    #1317867

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    I personally find 30-35 minutes to be on the fast side, but not normally something that I would come to the CR to rant about. This morning’s davening would have been closer to 25 minutes had the shaliach tzibbur not waited for the rav to finish kriyas Shema and Shemoneh Esrei before continuing, and had he recited the chazaras hashatz more quickly, which is how I usually see faster minyanim save time.

    #1317872

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Avram and ZD: When I said “most minyanim” I should have qualified by saying here in NYC. Most of the shuls in my neighborhood do not say korbanos. They start with Brochos and skip to R’ Yishmael. In my shul it takes approximately 35 – 40 minutes depending who davens for the amud.

    #1318025

    lesschumras
    Participant

    The first minyan in my shul is tied to the train schedule, the second minyan is slower. What justifiably irks people is when retirees who could go to the second minyan come to the first and complain it’s too fast and try to slow it down

    #1318054

    mo613
    Participant

    the chasm sofer z”tl was asked why he davend so extremely long
    wasn’t it bitul torah he answerd the chazal say those that are macrichin [stretch out[ the re tifols hashem gives them a longer life so he said if one lives longer he can make up the learning
    so you see me my friends you only gain by davenig slow

    #1318082

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    None of us are on the level of the Chassam Sofer, Only the Chassam Sofer was on the level of the Chassam Sofer.

    Some people if they think they can try to be on his level will not only fail but get discouraged

    #1318169

    blubluh
    Participant

    I recall a Shavuos I decided to try something different and went to a hotel for yom tov. I didn’t know much about the place other than its high kashrus standards. It was a somewhat run down bungalow colony-like place etched into the side of a steep mountain in some out of the way village I had never heard of.

    I was pleasantly surprised at the crowd at the minyanim and settled in for what I expected would be a very yeshivishe davening. Imagine my surprise when I found myself on a speeding Maariv locomotive the first night!

    I was in for my biggest surprise by Megillas Ruth. Until then, my only Megillah experience had been listening to a baal koreh read out loud, so I patiently waited wondering about the delay. My wondering abruptly ended with the sudden outburst of Kaddish d’rabbanan and the realization that not only had everyone else read the Megillah to themselves, but had done so at a most astonishing speed!

    #1318245

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Bluhbluh: as a Baal Korei I can tell you that reading to myself takes less time then when I lein in public. It takes me about 10 minutes to lein Rus in public.and it’s a regular Kaddish after the Megillah not a Kaddish D’rabbonon.

    #1319079

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    lesschumras,

    The first minyan in my shul is tied to the train schedule, the second minyan is slower.

    That’s fine, and similar to what my shul does. The minyan I was davening at is also tied to a specific end time (but is NOT a matza minyan), thus it starts earlier on Mondays and Thursdays to accomodate leining. I go to this one the majority of the week because I need to be at the office by a certain time on most days. And on most days the davening at this minyan is fast, but fine with me. I started this rant, because on that day, it seemed like you could barely fit “shalom aleicha rebbe” between “od yehallalucha sela” and “tehilas Hashem yidaber pi.” That was not normal. I understand the need for fast, but you’ve actually gotta say the words, and there is no way the tefillos were actually being said.

    Following this minyan there are slower ones, and I go to these when I’m allowed to work from home.

    #1319092

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad or lesschumras or preferably both,

    Do you believe that there is any point at which the davening is simply too fast to be ok?

    Also, what is the limud zechus for ultra-fast davening on Yom Tov, such as blubluh’s experience? Other than popa-bar-abba’s doctors, nobody has a train to catch.

    #1319109

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Avram in MD: I do agree with you that there is a point when it becomes “too fast”. The description you give does lend to being “too fast”. The minyan where I daven isn’t tied to an end time. We try to finish (starting from Rabbi Yishmael) in 33 minutes (Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday ) and 38 minutes (Monday & Thursday) to accommodate those who have to be in work early. If we don’t then they just leave before Aleinu.

    As to your question: “Also, what is the limud zechus for ultra-fast davening on Yom Tov, such as blubluh’s experience?” No time was actually given. We don’t know the paramaters of what bluhbluh calls fast. I once davened for the amud at a Bungalow Colony on the first night of Shavuous. Maariv took 12-15 minutes. Is that fast? What is extra then on a weeknight? Using the proper nussach? Yom Tov Shemona Esrei has less words then the weekday shemona esrei.

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