Dina D'Malchusa Dina

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  • #593553

    myfriend
    Member

    The issue of Dina D’Malchusa Dina is often misunderstood. Sometimes people throw it up, for issues it has no relevance. So a bit of background may be helpful.

    Rashi in Mesechtes Gittin says, DDD stems from the Noachide code. Rashi says, since the goyim are required to make courts and laws (“Dinim/Judgements” as explained by Ramban), Jews living in their society are bound by it. The Rambam says Dinim is to enforce the other 6 Noachide laws. The Ramban says Dinim is a general command to legislate appropriate social laws for society.

    But Rav Moshe Feinstein says you cannot report someone violating secular law to the authorities if either the secular punishment for violating the law is greater than the Torah punishment for the same violation; or that secular violation is not a Torah violation.

    #887759

    blueprints
    Participant

    Here’s a very relevant question

    If you pasken like reb Shlomo and you wouldn’t buy it anyway (ze nehene…) then your only hurdle to copying Jewish music is dina demalchuso which shittas say this does not apply

    #887760

    chesedname
    Participant

    myfriend

    if these is copied from somewhere, you NEED to post the source.

    #887761

    chesedname
    Participant

    blueprints

    we had a thread on coping music, there are many ways to do it. not everything that’s allowed should be done.

    #887762

    Midwest2
    Participant

    Midavar sheker tirchak.

    Or to quote Rav Breuer zaztal, “If you want to be glatt kosher you better also be glatt yoshar.”

    #887763

    charliehall
    Participant

    Needless to say, if you live in Eretz Yisrael and rely on the Ran to justify not paying your taxes to Medinat Yisrael, you will be enjoying the prison kollel. Remember that during the Ran’s lifetime, Eretz Yisrael was ruled by the Muslim Mamluks, not Jews. Not paying taxes to Medinat Yisrael also shows horrible midot, as those taxes pay the stipends to more people learning torah than at any time in history.

    #887764

    metrodriver
    Member

    charlie; “Myfriend” is an ideologue. And an unrealistic one at that. He wants to earn a living (and get a government subsidy, under one name or another) in Israel. Yet, doesn’t recognize its legitimacy. Contends (ideologically) that it’s OK to steal from it. The only place that might lead to is enjoying the prison Kollel program. The judge of the non-entity will decide where he spends the next Five, Six or Seven Years. Even the Naturei Karta, who don’t recognize the State of Israel (who needs their approval, anyway?!) informed the government about some racket where Yeshiva fundraisers were involved. They were practical. They didn’t want to suffer where someone else made big bucks.

    #887765

    farrocks
    Member

    What’s issur dmalchusa issur?

    #887766

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Hmm.

    #887767

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant
    #887768

    farrocks
    Member

    Sorry, I googled it and somehow ended up on this thread. I didn’t get any results for issur dmalchusa, so I guess it doesn’t exist.

    #887769

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yes, I made up that term, to refer to the type of D”MD which perhaps applies to things like speed limits and EPA permits.

    #887770

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Charliehall, for years the medina has been cutting back on avreichim benefits while spending on all sorts of anti-Torah activities, arresting people who encourage tznius, etc. I’ll pay their taxes in the regular course of life and to avoid their punishments, but dina de-malchusa isn’t shayach.

    #887771

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    loyal: this thread is old. Charlie hasn’t been posting for a while. But you can still find him at Einstein.

    #887772

    Avi K
    Participant

    Rambam (Hilchot Melachim ch. 4) says that there is ddm in EY and it is even a capital offense to be over even for minor infractions such as disobeying an order to turn in a certain direction or violating house arrest (ibid Halacha 5). The Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat 369:6) decides accroding to Rambam and aparently Rashbam (Baba Batra 54a d”h veha’amar Shmuel), who holds that thereason is that all of the residents implicitly agree to obey the law. According to Rav Ovadia one cannot say kim li against both Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch and therefore one is obliged to pay taxes to the State (Yechaveh Daat 5:63).The Ran (Derasha 11) admits that there is ddm in EY regarding laws enacted for public order and safety.

    So far as commercial law is concerned, while we do not say ddm batei din will pasken the civil law as minhag hamedina. Of course, one must go to the bet din, which will decide how to apply the secular law.

    Rav Moshe’s ruling is limited to an instance where the criminal is non-violent (see Rema Choshen Mishpat 388:7 and see 388:12 regading financial crimes, Schach Choshen Mishpat 388:45 and Tzitz Eliezer 19:52) and the reporter is not obligated by law to report the crime (see Bet Yosef (see Baba Metzia 83b-84a and Bet Yosef, citing the Responsum of the Rashba, Hoshen Mishpat 388).

    .

    #887773

    farrocks
    Member

    Avi, The Shulchan Aruch and Rambam say it is a capital offense to violate a minor dina dmalchusa such as an order to turn in a certain direction? I cant imagine you are quoting that correctly, unless it is specifically referring to Gentiles.

    #887774

    simcha613
    Participant

    1. I don’t know which “most poskim” you are referring to, but the S”A is not among that group.

    2. Don’t count Rishonim on your list of poskim.

    3. You lose credibility when one of the “poskim” on your list who agrees with the Ran, is the Ran.

    4. If the government of Israel is a “malchus shel risha’a”, so would every other government in the world. They are no worse to the Charedim then anyone else, and they are probably better because they give more money to them than any other government would.

    #887775

    simcha613
    Participant

    1. I don’t know which “most poskim” you are referring to, but the S”A is not among that group.

    2. Don’t count Rishonim on your list of poskim.

    3. You lose credibility when one of the “poskim” on your list who agrees with the Ran, is the Ran.

    4. If the government of Israel is a “malchus shel risha’a”, so would every other government in the world. They are no worse to the Charedim then anyone else, and they are probably better because they give more money to them than any other government would.

    #887776

    farrocks
    Member

    It says “And…”. That a malchus risha is an additional situation where it wouldn’t apply.

    #887778

    avhaben
    Participant

    Which of the Taryag mitzvos, if any, is Dina Dmalchusa? Where in the Torah do we learn that Dina Dmalchusa is a mitzvah? Is it mentioned in Shulchan Aruch? Where? To what extent does S”A say it applies to?

    #887779

    avhaben
    Participant

    ?”? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?

    ????? ????? ????? – ??? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??”? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ???? ?”? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ????.

    #887780

    avhaben
    Participant

    ??????????? ??????? ??? ?, ???? ??????? ???? [??? ???]

    ?. ????? ?????. ???? ??????? ?? ????????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? – ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? – ??? ????? ????? – ????? ????? – ?? ???? ???? ??, ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??, ?????? ??? ??? ???????? ?????? ????, ??????? ??? ??? ???? ??????, ????? ?? ???, ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?????, ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???. ?????? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???, ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????. ????? ??????? ??? ???????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ????, ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????, ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???, ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????. ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ???, ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??, ?? ?? ?? [??? ??] ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????, ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??. ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ??????? ????.

    #887781

    Avi K
    Participant

    The Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat 369:6) rules liek the opinion that there is dina d’malchuta dina in EY and Rav Ovadia (Yechaveh Daat 5:4) and Rav Eliashiv (Piskei Din Rabbaniim vol. 6 p.376-381) pasken thatt his applies to Medinat Yisrael. In addition, many poskim hold that the Knesset and Government as elected representatives have the din of Shiva Tuvei HaIr.

    One who disagrees has a problem as he cannot walk on any land or use any road that was built through eminent domain.

    #887782

    avhaben
    Participant

    Avi: Look in Shulchan Aruch and Rav Elyashev again. They don’t say what you are saying.

    #887783

    Chacham
    Participant

    See MInchas Shlomo on Nedarim 28a

    #887784

    Csar
    Member

    Chacham: What does the Minchas Shlomo say?

    #887785

    Avi K
    Participant

    Avikaben, the Shulchan Aruch says that one who evades taxes is a thief whether from a Goyish or Jewish king. Where so you think the Jewish king rules? In Antarctica? And if so, what is the hava amina? Obviously, this means, as Rav Ovadia understands it (and even says that one cannot say “kim li” as it is against both Rambam and the Mechaber), that there is dina d’malchuta dina in EY.

    Rav Eliashiv ruled ” ???????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ??”?”.This is also the opinion of the Avnei Nezer (Yoreh Deah 312:48), who says that what is beyond the poweer of the king are dinei mamonet (although the concensus of the poskim is that they have the din of minhagei hamedina as thye are accepted by the community) and dealing with averot ben adam laMakom.

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