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Discrimination Against Baalei Teshuva

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  1. oomis
    Best Bubby EVER

    OK Mosherose, you finally crossed the line. What you posted was mean-spirited. "If they let you in then the're putting the other kids at risk..." And you know that - how, exactly? Do you even know Wolf-M, did you know him when he was a kid? (I am not trying to defend you, Wolf, you are more than capable of doing that yourself, but this was just such an egregious remark that I had to comment).

    Mosherose, you would make your points more worthy of attention, were you not so caught up in your very one-sided and extremely judgmental views.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  2. rt
    Member

    maaseh with the Gerrer Rebbe of the bachur who came to him for a bracha, the Rebbe asked where he learned, he answered Ohr Sameach "but I'm not a baal teshuva";whereas the Rebbe asked,"far vus nisht?"
    b'makom shebaalei teshuva omdim, ain tzaddikim gemoorim y'cholim laamod
    and finally (as I heard from an Adam Gadol) when it comes to shidduchim, gelt is nisht kein maaleh & yichus is nisht kein chisaron!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  3. bpt
    never caustic

    I'm really grateful to Aura(and all the poeple who gave me an insight to the struggles they face / faced) for starting this thread, as it gotten me to think about how I interact with other folks whose observance levels are different than mine (I deliberatly did not use the word BT, as I'm getting less and less comfortable with lables, especially ones that divide us).

    This occured to me this morning (during shacris, of course, which is when we do our best thinking) that the "nervousness" I sense in others is not thier problem... its MY problem. I'm the one who's being intolerant, who's setting the bar inreasonably high, so no wonder I'm getting a bad vibe. Maybe I'm the one that needs to relax a little.

    Anyways, my apologies to all. The only goal you need to achieve is the one you set for yourself. And again, thanks Aura (and all the others)!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  4. Moshe Rabeinu
    Member

    I, as a BT born in Eastern Europe face discrimination in shidduchim on a constant basis (I came to USA as a child and became frum as a teenager). Although, it is certainly a painfull reality, but I do understand caucious approach of FFB’s. It is true that perhaps in most areas of life BT’s (and marriage is one of them) have generally a weaker foundation to function from. However, there are many marriages between 2 FFB’s that fall apart and many marriages between 2 BT’s or 1 FFB and 1 BT that are wonderfull. So my point is that risk or difficulty in marriage by marrying a BT is somewhat greater, still one should not be prejugdiced but should go out and date on the basis of merit and compatability and not on the basis of labels. Singles should try to resist being uncomfortable to date BT because of what someone might say, even if it their mother. There are FFB’s who supposedly had all the resources to make it and somehow did not (sometimes inside and outside strongly don’t match). One needs to be open minded as much as possible in shidduchim and this will help our shidduch crisis.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  5. oomis
    Best Bubby EVER

    "It's only a problem if the children become chutzpah like a niddah! "

    I must take issue with that characterization. My mother-in-law of blessed memory never went to the mikvah in her life. I promise you, you could not find a more derech eretzdig person if you combed the world.

    On the day she had what would turn out to be a mortal stroke, I had an intuition something was up. I normally called her every day, and when I spoke to her, her speech seemed slightly slurred to me. Her son-in-law had passed away suddenly three weeks prior, and she was deeply affected by his death. So when she really sounded "off" to me, I made my husband spend Shabbos with them (though they were not frum). I sent food, challah and grape juice with him. They had paper goods and plastic ware for whenever we came over. My intuition proved correct, as this was the last Shabbos she lived.

    She was totally blind and bedridden, so she normally had her TV or radio on all day, as it was her lifeline to the outside world. When my father-in-law O"H wanted to put the tv on for her, she told him adamantly, "No! J. is here and it's Shabbos." The TV did not go on. I want to emphasize my husband did not request that the TV not be turned on. It was totally from her, out of respect for her frum son being there on Shabbos. Essentially, she became a baalas teshuvah just before she died. I would never in a million years classify this remarkable woman as a chutzpahdig niddah. It comforted my husband greatly, when she was nifteres three days later, to realize that her last conscious act was to be mekadeish Shabbos.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  6. tzippi
    Member

    Msseeker, B"H for those sites that DON'T breed cynicism. Three cheers and all that.
    (If anyone knows what they are, please let me know.)

    Posted 3 years ago #
  7. im a ba'al tshuvah. I wouldnt say i am proud of it, it was not my doing. Hashem did me a great Chesed by reaching down and pulling me up. i will be forever grateful.
    i generally dont think of the the fact that im a baal tshuvah. i dont feel anyone thinks of me any differently because of it or is even generally conscious of the fact. where i live i never sensed any kind of negative feelings against baal thsuvim or even any sense that anyone was interested in knowing who was a baal tshuvah or not. its a complete non issue, at least among the large number of people i know.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  8. philosopher
    clearheaded

    Mod-80, I'm willing to bet you became a baal teshuva quite a number of years ago.

    Most brand new baalie teshuvas today really stand out because of a number of reasons.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  9. I'm willing to bet you became a baal teshuva quite a number of years ago.

    you would win the bet

    Posted 3 years ago #
  10. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    It's interesting that in this respect (like many others in my life) I find myself neither here nor there.

    I became frum at the age of 9 when my mother became frum.

    As such, I certainly can't claim to be FFB. I certainly remember my non-frum life and (for worse AND better) it has helped to shape me into who and what I am today.

    Likewise, I can't take the "moral credit" for actually being a BT, since it's not as if I had some "moral awakening" that chose me to choose a frum lifestyle. As such, I can't be considered a true "Ba'al Teshuva" (in the context in which it's used in this discussion) either.

    So, once again, I'm neither here nor there in life -- neither comfortable nor entirely welcome in either camp.

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  11. philosopher
    clearheaded

    Baalie teshuvas years ago usually had a better chance of integrating within the frum community because the moral decay in the secular world wasn't that bad, so there wasn't so much suspicion regarding the BT's.

    Also most baalei teshuvas years ago (I'm not talking about Russian baalei teshuvas which is a seperate category) became frum because they were attracted to Yiddishkeit or simply attended a frum school.

    Today there is this mass movement to freneticly grab any person who claims they are Jewish and influence them to become frum, in an effort to stem the imagined total dissapearance of frum Jewry.

    Granted, in the secular world assimilation is tragic and of immense proportions. But the cutting off of a large percentage of Jews from klal Yisroel is not a new phenomenon. It happened quite a few times in history.

    The frum community is b"H growing nicely.

    I don't think we should focus on making baal teshuvas. I think we should focus on taking care of the new BT's that are already in our communities, even after they were married and established a family. Ersht demelz, they need support.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  12. Health
    Member

    I think the problem is that these orgs. make them frum and then dump them. These groups should be the new found friends and family of the BT's that they made. They need help in all facets of life -financial, help getting their kids into schools (if they live in that type of community), help with shidduchim and anything else you can think of. Chazal say -If someone begins a Mitzvah, we tell them to complete it.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  13. a few points to ponder-
    There are many BT's who really know how to "fit in" and integrate that you would NEVER guess that they are BT's or that they're parents are. Sometimes, I am not generalizing, but sometimes you'll find that BT's or they're children and families are more frum and more makpid than ffb's. Sometimes you'll find that they're the one's who really "get it" (i mean 'get' and truly appreciate yiddishkeit)i've had a few experiences where i saw this clearly.

    I think a lot of the "discrimination" besides for the tahara thing comes from the fact that the BT's don't blend in, and stay with their "hashkafos" and ways of thinking and try to combine it with Torah and yiddishkeit. I've seen this many times and instead they end up mixed up/with mixed up kids.

    Talking about kiruv and stuff- lets work on ourselves and the kedusha itself spreads. If one is in kiruv - im sure you heard the saying - while your doing kirvu rechokim make sure your not being marchik the krovim

    Posted 3 years ago #
  14. tomim tihye
    Member

    I think that if one is comfortable with himself, he is generally comfortable and welcome wherever he goes.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  15. tomim tihye
    Member

    One major issue facing children of many ba'alei t'shuva is lack of extended family who are part of their community. All their friends seem to have cousins being raised the same way they are, and these children do not. Their grandparents are not the same as those of their friends, and they do not have relatives' simchos or family gatherings (of the same nature as their friends') to attend. This can be very isolating for children, even if there are many siblings in the family, as extended family plays a crucial role in the frum community.

    As the child of an FFB and a BT, I wanted to marry a BT, if only to give him and his future children the joy of being part of a large frum family, B"H. I am grateful that Hashem led me on that path.

    It might be helpful to ba'alei t'shuva if a FFB family makes them feel like part of their own family. You don't need to mentor them (unless they request specific advice), but you need to treat them like close family members. Well, maybe with more conscious effort since the blood bond isn't there.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  16. philosopher
    clearheaded

    Health, I agree with you. Most of these kiruv orginizations leave the fresh BT's sort of adrift on their own.

    Also, I don't believe we should go fishing for BT's.

    I say we should just concentrate on being good Jews, Jews with emes and derech eretz.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  17. Sister Bear
    Granddaughter of "Da Bears"

    One major issue facing children of many ba'alei t'shuva is lack of extended family who are part of their community. All their friends seem to have cousins being raised the same way they are, and these children do not. Their grandparents are not the same as those of their friends, and they do not have relatives' simchos or family gatherings (of the same nature as their friends') to attend. This can be very isolating for children, even if there are many siblings in the family, as extended family plays a crucial role in the frum community.
    I'm the child of a BT and a semi FFB and it is hard not having any family around. (That could also be due to the fact that we live in a different country then them all :)) But you can make your own "family". My family is very close with a bunch of people that I consider siblings, aunts, even a few mothers ;)... that none of my friends whose parents are FFB's can understand.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  18. "I say we should just concentrate on being good Jews, Jews with emes and derech eretz."

    BS"D

    The Lubavitcher Rebbe ZYA spoke of a tzaddik in peltz, a Yid who kept himself warm with his own Torah and mitzvos as if he were wearing a fur coat while everyone else was freezing.

    He was referring to the attitude expressed in the quote above. I am truly pained to see it expressed by any ben or bas Torah, and the last time I saw it expressed was by someone who himself was mechutz lamachane.

    We are the descendants of Avraham Avinu, who kept his tent open at all four sides and who made neshomos for Hashem.

    And the Clinton wedding shows what the fate of those whom we have not yet reached often turns out to be.

    We cannot be satisfied. We are 10% of world Jewry at best. 10% is an F in every school I ever attended. We should not even be satisfied with a B, let alone an F, when it comes to any aspect of Yiddishkeit.

    The problems of poor integration of some BT's into the community (a very complex problem because we don't brainwash people and indeed some BT's are not rebuked when they believe they can reconcile everything from extreme leftist politics to devotion to strange music to soft drug use with Torah chas vesholom) and lack of proper followup by kiruv organizations (true but getting better) does not and never can preclude our obligation to reach out to every Jew, no matter how far he may seem.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  19. Moshe Rabeinu
    Member

    Although it is certainly very idealistic to expect that organization like Lev Leahim, Orooh, Kiruv schools, etc. would look after BT until they become grandparents themselves it is not realistic due to their specialization, limited resources, etc. But not looking down at others who come from different backgrounds would certainly help. We have to understand that we could have been like “those people” if we had their life circumstances. Especially when it comes to shidduchim people are frequently judgmental of others even before meeting them. They have to realize that although someone maybe missing in one respect or be not like us, that same person can outshine in different characteristics. We need to know that the main thing in marriage is personal compatability( such as character, etc.) and not your in- laws lifestyle habits.Years of going on shidduchim can be cut if we remain more open-minded to all sorts of issues such as BT/ FFB, Learning/ Working, Ashkenazim/Sefardim, etc. I will not quote someone who learned this hard way.
    2. "As someone who got married later I think they’re foolish to believe it’s all due to age. Look at what’s going on in our communities! The problem is that we’re too judgmental of others so we’re making our children too picky. As someone who married someone from a different background my only charata is not having been open-minded when I was younger. I’m pretty sure if these 14% would consider guys from YU, chassidish or BT backgrounds that number would be smaller. The... community thinks too much of itself"

    Posted 3 years ago #
  20. philosopher
    clearheaded

    A600kilobear, those who will marry BT's and make sure their kids get accepted into frum schools can help people become frum.

    There is barely place for children from frum families in these overcrowded schools so only the "best" families are easily accepted. The rest have to beg. Forget it when you are BT! It's hard for them! I just read a letter in the Yated of how a BT father is crying becasue his children can't get into schools.

    You can't play with people's lives. If we are really ready to accept them in terms of totall integration within our families and schools then you have point, otherwise at the rate it's going it will be a disaster.

    Years ago, when a person became frum, they could send their kids to school without a problem. They could marry their kids off, with maybe a little more diffuculty than the regular family, just like any other family with issues, but today with the shidduch scene being what it is, this is even harder.

    Only ten, fifteen years ago, when even the secular world beleived in family values, then you knew that a father is a father and a person's mother is a mother. Can you guarantee that all of those we bring into our communities are not memzerim?

    Years ago, if a person said he's Jewish, he was. Today with so many sham conversions of the Reform and Conservative created a nightmare regarding really knowing who is a Jew untill it is too late.

    It is not so simple to go to a college campus or the streets of Manhattan and set up a table and promote Judasim to anyone who claims they are Jewish. One needs to see the outcome of all of this.

    I say that for those who are already frum, let's take care of them. I feel it's heartless to leave them hanging without freinds or a support system.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  21. oomis
    Best Bubby EVER

    Maybe every Jew who comes from a family where there is a possibility of a non-halachic conversion of the mother, should undergo hatafa and tvilah in the case of the men, and tvila in the case of women. Their assertion that they are Yidden should eliminate any problem of a chashash on them. On the other hand, if they are halachically already Jewish, would there be an issur to do this (i.e. is there a bracha that has to be made, so it would be l'vatalah in such an instance?)

    Posted 3 years ago #
  22. BS"D

    1) Sometimes the fault of poor integration lies with the BT himself. I cannot tell you how many I know who still follow various treyfe music or who are into all kinds of New Age garbage. Unfortunately there is no one like Rav Avigdor Miller ZTL or R' Eli Teitelbaum ZL now who is able to deliver toichecho and break through such klipa beahavas Yisroel.

    On the other hand, some BT's who are not conformist are best advised to go to perfectly halachic "alternative" communities like Breslov where they fit in better and are able to live according to Torah but in their own culture. Nothing wrong with that at all.

    2) We need more schools. Plain and simple.

    3) Everyone has documentation of some sort in the modern world and it is usually enough to prove there is no mamzerus. Issues regarding conversion usually come out and once it does, the sincere BT is willing to do gerus whereas someone who is not as strong simply drops out at that point. The problem of conversion affects perhaps 5% of potential baalei tshuva, if that. Most products of such conversions could care less about Judaism or are so steeped in the movement that converted their mothers that they would never look at Torah and in this case we can only say B"H.

    We cannot leave a single Jew behind. We are leaving 90% of Jews behind. And if we don't act, Deformed is only too happy to get a few more members for its tembels by offering some feel good program.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  23. Sacrilege
    the real one

    I am an FFB who has dated (I am still single) a number of BTs. I actually have seen that my friends and other singles think that it's weird/different that I do date/like BTs. I dont know if I would call it discrimination, I think that its more of a close mindedness and a mis-guidance. Obviously every person is different and you have to do what works for you. Over the few years that I have been dating what I have noticed is that a lot of times BTs say that they want an FFB (wether to feel like they are "fully integrated" or what not) but in the end many times they feel most comfortable with another BT. (yes, speaking from LOTS of experience here)

    Posted 3 years ago #
  24. mybat
    Member

    Sacrilege, I am also a FFB and my husband is a BT. My in laws are traditional, their house is 100% kosher. They used to go to a conservative shul but when their son started becoming more religious they started going to an orthodox shul. In the beginning they were really traumatized that their son who they raised suddenly went "crazy". But now when they see him married and they see their grandchildren they are thrilled.since my husband works with his father they really have a very close relationship and my father inlaw, even though he is not "religious" is one of the most decent, honest, hardworking and giving person that I know. He gives tzedaka to poor brides and to kolel couples. Everyone who meets him gets blown away with the quality of person that he is.
    And my ashkenaz (I'm syrian), BT husband, well let's just say...... How many people would say NO to such a match without even meeting the person?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  25. oomis
    Best Bubby EVER

    Mybat, sounds liked you lucked out the same way I did. :)

    Posted 3 years ago #
  26. Sacrilege
    the real one

    Mybat - I think that sounds beautiful, that you can transcend all the "barriers" that people themselves put up. BT/FFB/Ashkenaz/Sphardi.... Like I said before everyone has to do what works for them but excluding whole groups out of ignorance or because of a "stereo-type" seems inane to me.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  27. Midwest2
    Member

    It strikes me that a lot of the adjustment issue is related to geography. Out-of-town BTs, geirim, returnees (born FFB, went off and came back) etc. are pretty much accepted on their own merits. That could simply be that in smaller communities people can become known as individuals, rather than labels.

    In places like NYC, though, where everybody seems to belong to an "identity group" anybody who is different is going to have problems. If you wear the wrong color shirt, you're beyond the pale. If you go to the wrong sem you'll never get a shidduch. Once upon a time people becoming frum out-of-town wanted to move to NYC because a) that was where the "real" Yiddishkeit was based and b) that's where everybody went for a shidduch. Now, people are moving to Boston, Baltimore or Chicago, simply because it's now known that NYC doesn't welcome "outsiders" any more, and everybody is too busy calling everybody else unpleasant names.

    The moral here? When you've got real achdus you don't worry what music the next person is playing on their CD, and you aren't afraid that a BT child will influence your children instead of the other way round. When major groups of FFBs start accepting each other, eventually they may get around to accepting BTs too.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  28. mybat
    Member

    Yes oomis, b"h like you.
    Sacrilege, my point exactly. Don't vetoe everything because of peer pressure, you never know what Hashem really has in store for you.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  29. so right
    Joseph

    Midwest2: Apparently the issue lies outside NYC, as your comment demonstrates you don't "accept" frum NY'ers. Your very comment reflected upon yourself. I notice quite a bit of jealousy by some out of towners.

    That being said, one point made was glaringly factually wrong, in that out-of-towners still move to NYC literally in droves. There must be a reason, and the reason continues.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  30. artchill
    Member

    so right:

    "Out-of-towners flock to NY in droves"

    The ONLY reason:

    Their GPS was broken!!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  31. OOT are NOT jealous AT ALL. I give up a LOt of conveniences to live OOT and i LOVE it. I thank Hashem all the time that i live where i do. It's a wonderful community with a shtraka kehilla. Sometimes i think that because there are so many yidden K"h living in Brooklyn there's so much machlokes. That's just a thought. I guess it's true - 2 Jews 3 opinions.

    Many "flock" to brooklyn areas for a simple reason - job opportunities/shidduchim/family situations

    Posted 3 years ago #
  32. not only machlokes, but you know - "types" and groups... many times all on a chitzonies level.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  33. midwest, i couldn't agree more.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  34. haifagirl
    Chief of Grammar Enforcement Commandos

    I am so glad I live out of town. But I still don't understand why Eretz Yisroel is "out of town."

    Posted 3 years ago #
  35. mdd
    Member

    I am appaled by the utter lack of Ahavas Isroel, a feeling for another, trying to see yourself in another person's place displayed by some people, including some of the posters here. They do not feel that frei Yidden are Yidden also, that we need to mekarev them,if possible (why did Ribono shel Olam send all the Nevi'im to rebuke Yidden, who were ovdei avoda zorah?). That baalei t'shuva are your brothers, and one must treat them accordingly. To some of the born-frum ba'alei ga'ava: had you been born in a frei home, would you become frum? If yes, how quickly? It appears that for some, as long as they (or, maybe, their community)are ok, the rest of Klal Isroel can just go under. has ve'sholom. It is not suprising that we
    are still in golus.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  36. Sacrilege
    the real one

    Mybat - No need to warn me about peer-pressure, I'm a bit of a non-conformist anyways ;)

    I am a born and bred New Yorker and would give up close to anything to live out of town for many reasons, chief among them "judgmentalness" of In-Towners.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  37. Sacrilege
    the real one

    mdd - truer words have never been written on this site.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  38. "when it comes to shidduchim, gelt is nisht kein maaleh & yichus is nisht kein chisaron! "

    sorry to say, but sometimes yichus, well they're so full of themselves because of the yichus that there's no yichus atzmo. S/o i know was redt ashidduch and they kept on bragging about yichus yichus... the father kept asking "what aabout the boy himself?" it was clear that that was all he had- Yichus. (it like a bunch of 0's without any one before it)

    Posted 3 years ago #
  39. rebdoniel
    Modern/Open Orthodox

    I was brought up in a home with parents who were off the derech, and had left Orthodoxy in their teens, but became frum, learned Hebrew, how to make a leining, and started doing all of this when I was 16. I am 20 now, go to college, hold a job to pay for medical expenses, and learn several hours each day, give shiuirim, write articles and pilpulim (you see some of them here), try to be mechazek others and do acts of chesed, and try to be medakdek b'mitzvos. I have experienced some discrimination, some which may be intentional, other discrimination which may be unintentional, such as people using an overabundance of Yiddish terms I may not know. Most exceptionally, though, I have faced rejection by some over my openness to learning torah from different camps (i.e. quoting Rav Kook, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, pesukim from Tanach, etc. in some circles will not go over well), but this may just be that some are closeminded and are just following what their rebbe or rov tells them to do and think. As a result of my transition to frumkeit, my parents and I have nothing to do with each other, despite my being young (20), and I live without material support (I sacrificed my yerusha, my home, everything to be able to live a Torah lifestyle), sometimes I sleep on the trains, spend nights in Shomrei Shabbos learning Gemara, more or less doing the best that I can to get by. This is being mesiras nefesh for Torah and I would choose poverty/homelessness to keep mitzvos and learn torah any day of the week over, c"v, abandoning the lifestyle of emes HaShem revealed to me. On top of all of this, I am visually impaired, dyslexic, and am undergoing treatment for yeneh machla. The biggest challenge I face is the lack of monetary support a parent provides at this age, but it is a no-brainer for me to choose Torah u'mitzvos over living in an environemnt where I am not welcome due to my religious practices and beliefs. It is also depressing to not have a family to eat by for Shabbos and Yom Tov; my shabboses normally consist of making kiddush in Shomrei Shabbos, eating what hot item I can find there, and learning. It is very hard not having the simcha and ruchnius of a loving mishpacha who is with you and supports you in your faith. Most of all, though, I am not a baal teshuvah. I haven;t mastered the art of repentance. I consider myslef a tinok shenishba and a chozer b' teshuva; for whatever reason, HaShem decicded I should be born to the people I was born to, but now that I am of the age to do as I please, I have taken upon myself shmiras hamitzvos. For this I would trade nothing. I;d even give my life for it, and to an extent I have (being homeless is no fun and can get to you). The most important thing I remember and that gives me chizuk is this: For my father and my mother have forsaken me, but HaShem gathers me in (Tehillim 27:10).

    Posted 3 years ago #
  40. jay11691
    Member

    R' Shimon Schwab says in "Collected Speeches" that the correct term for people who have returned to Yiddishkeit is not Baalei Teshuvah, but "Tzaddikim"........

    Posted 3 years ago #
  41. MDD: THANK YOU.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  42. dazed
    Member

    I am a Gerus and my husband a BT. It has been hard for us marriage wise because neither of us has any frum family support and not a lot is offered in the community for couples like us. We didn't find a Rabbi to adopt us or an FFb family to guide us in our journey which would have been great. I notice that most stable BT's have other BT family members. I have watched a BT marriage fall apart which didn't have support. I think BT marriages need more than just each other for support. I think BT's are "shaking" not only from fear of Hashem but from insecurity in the community, feeling not accepted by the Frum community, feeling like they don't fit in. and judgementalism really hurts from FFB's and BT's, i actually find other BT's very judgmental sometimes. too many are focused on externals.

    FFb's seem very busy and happy with their own big frum families and their frum lives, they don't seem to know what to say to us.......we've noticed we have only been invited to an FFb home for a meal once since moving to our neighborhood which is very Yeshevish.... only other BT's have invited us. my husband and I kind of understand this. people are happiest around people of similar ilk, we don't have similar experiences and interests and of course very different family backgrounds, so maybe there isn't much to talk about?? frankly, I wouldn't know what to say to them. I have so many family situations that they can't relate to and I am use to....

    you have to do the best you can do and remember why you became frum/Jewish in the first place. have emunah and be nice and friendly and you'll attract other nice and friendly families. whether FFb or BT

    Posted 1 year ago #
  43. anon1m0us
    Member

    Edited Some FFB's discriminate against everyone, not just BT's so there is really no reason to get worked up about their discrimination policy. If you are Yeshivish Lite ( a new term that I was just introduced to), MO, YU, Chassidish, Tuna Bagels, and the list goes on. In truth, why would one want to marry someone with such warped hashkofus that they feel the need and presumptions to label and discriminate against everyone. I'm an FFB and when I was dating was just looking for a nice Jewish girl that had good midos and someone I was able to respect. Everything else is narishkeit that unfortunately people who have the least to brag about have the most demands! So my advice, ignore people who feel they are superior, because they would not allow their children to marry Moshe Rabaynu who was adopted by goyim (and probably a BT) or any of the avos since they had terrible father in laws!!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  44. Torah613Torah
    (613)Torah²

    Warning: Here comes a megilla.

    How a BT adjusts ultimately depends on how well you integrate into the community, and that depends on your willingness to take on customs that may not make sense to you, but are the norm in your neighborhood. Most BTs who did not adopt social norms have difficulty with their children integrating as well.

    BTs tend to be more thought out than FFBs. This is a good thing, in my humble opinion. For example, BT parents are more willing to send a kid to therapy or use medication if needed. They are more honest about their own faults and open to growth.
    However, they need to understand that there is a mild stigma for shidduchim, and not tell their neighbors/friends/coworkers about it. Or they like dressing their little ones in flowery dresses, but everyone else in the preschool is wearing striped jumpers. Or they insist on flouting a school rule that doesn't make sense to them.

    Becoming Orthodox isn't just about keeping Mitzvos, although that's the major part of it. It's also becoming a member of a community, with all the responsibilities, annoyances, and trusting the leadership that that entails. You need to have a Rabbi and be realistic about who you are, where you are growing, and what your children need.

    Most BTs and children of BTs with whom I am familiar are indistinguishable from FFBs. They don't talk about their past unless it is relevant, and are focused on serving Hashem and personal growth. I deeply admire them and would love to be like that.

    If you integrate well, you don't really worry about discrimination, as you realize that any school that won't accept your children (after you apply appropriate Rabbinical pressure, using your networking to its fullest), probably isn't the school for you.

    You realize that shidduchim are bashert.

    Anyone foolish enough to turn down your sweet, beautiful, bright, active, Torah-valuing, Mitzva-doing daughter because you are a BT is not worthy of her, and there are plenty of families in the same situation who will be happy to marry with yours.

    Hashem says that in the place where a BT stands, a completely righteous person cannot stand. Hashem loves you, and will help you get to the position you need in life.

    All the best,
    Torah613^2

    Posted 1 year ago #
  45. TheBearIsBack
    (Otis)zviller Rebbe

    What is wrong with invei hagefen veinvei hagefen? There are some BTs who could never marry FFBs because they retain much of their old culture - and these are often davka the ones who complain they can't find someone when there are tens of mates for them who are also BT and haven't given up their yoga, or their Grateful Deceased, or their nonconformist dress etc. And there are some old-fashioned families who want to marry into families they knew in the alte heim - so be it (until it gets to the point that there are genetic problems LA from a small gene pool, but Dor Yeshorim helps with that).

    Some BTs kvetch about everything in their new world too, and think they are the ones who should make changes before they even know alef beis. FFBs are only right to see BTs as unstable when week after week, these types (dis)grace their Shabbos table before they drop out anyway. Believe me, it is no fun to have your Shabbos disturbed by wannabes who call you racist, fascist, misogynist etc because they don't like the answers to their pointed questions.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  46. shmendrick
    Blocked

    A BT comes with a family who are often not BT.

    Suppose the BT's brother acts like a goy, eats like one and is marries to a man - that can create huge complexities. Do you attend the "simcha" of an intermarriage or a man "marrying" a man? DO you sit at a wedding that serves treif food, a chuppah officiated by a lady rabbi and a minister?

    Likewise the BT's parents can create a problem for the couple's children when they do not act as a Zaidy or Bubby should act.

    I agree with Health that BT's should USUALLY marry BT's and deal with common issues that are B"H foreign to FFB's.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  47. zahavasdad
    Member

    shmendrick is that what your uncle the R'Y of BMG would say?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  48. shmendrick
    Blocked

    I would appreciaye if you don't mention my personal information.

    The R"Y said many times that we FFB's would not be able to stand up to the nisyonos and the daily complex dilemmas that a B"T must deal with. We have it "easy" - al mei menuchos, compared to the BT's life.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  49. zahavasdad
    Member

    You posted it, if you didnt want it mentioned dont post it

    Posted 1 year ago #
  50. I became observant when shall we say it was not fashionable, attended prominent yeshivas just like our true brethren ( from the ffb club)speak ivrit , Yiddish all fluently i might add, and just for fun people, yes a reminder is thrown in periodically not meant to necessarily hurt, however, yes it does. One would think perhaps as this might not be the case, i hate to use this word, but for lack of a better one, bigotry is alive and well, flourishing on all levels here in the USA. Yes i am an import. I was shocked to the core at the level of hurt the our ffb brethren, not knowingly of course, inflict on the BT community.
    I am grateful someone has the gumption to spearhead a campaign
    of awareness and highlight this uncomfortable situation which exists in our community. Amazing as this may sound there is no level of discrimination when accepting our checks for tzedoko. Moron ve'raboisai, wake up, there are still mitzvois bain odom le'chavairo we can fulfill and not rely purely on bain odom lamakoim to serve the Ribono shel Oilam.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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