November 10, 2015 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #616638
The only reason why most orthodox jews choose to live outside of Eretz Yisroel, Is Financial Or “Gashmius” concerns. In Israel, there is lack of financial stability as well as a limited variety of leisure, pleasure and other stuff such as Macys, walmart, or dbenhams(if you’re from crawley) etc. Very few orthodox jews live abroad for health, chinuch, kibud av or other UNCOMPROMISING reasons. Most orthodox jews live abroad for COMPROMISING REASONS, in other words, basically, reasons that are not good reasons.
If so then chutznikim should think hard about why they are living in chutz laaretz, Lands which bear no kedusha, no significance to the Jewish people.
For some it may be hard to adjust to israeli attitude.
For some, israel is just the wrong place to go shopping.
For some, Living in a semi developed country is very difficult.
For Some, It’s simply the zionists (yu excluded)
Some are scared of the rockets
For some, driving a smashed in bewick and living in an apartment the size of a rabbit cage doesn’t work.
Whatever the reasons, they need to be judged carefully. There will be many points to ponder such as the fact that no one in eretz yisrael dies of starvartion and that hashem gives everyone parnassa. the zchus of living in eretz yisrael. After all, Ruchniyus comes before gashmiyus,
and as for me…??? I am rabbi of crawley!!November 10, 2015 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #1112834
For a number of people, they benefit spiritually, for a wide variety of factors, by living in chutz l’aaretz.
In Eretz Yisroel there are extremes. Most people are either kodshei kodoshim, very holy and spiritual and pay little to no attention to gashmius and are entirely or almost entirely devoting their lives to ruchniyus – or rachmana litzlon the other extreme, where they almost completely neglect ruchniyus.
As far as an “excuse”, you’ll have to ask Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Aharon Kotler, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, the Chofetz Chaim, the Baal Shem Tov, the Vilna Gaon, the Rosh, Rashi, Rabbeinu Gershom, et al what their excuse for living in chutz laaretz was.November 10, 2015 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1112835
How about people who have relatives who cannot go and cannot leave them
Maybe someone has an elderly parent who cannot fly and they cannot leave themNovember 10, 2015 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1112836
Lack of financial stability? In the US many Orthodox Jews have been living off gemachs since the financial crisis and those who have decent jobs have to send their kids to public schools because they are too poor to pay full tuition but too rich for scholarships.
Israeli attitude? What about the American attitude about victims and victimizers? Anyway, I was told that NYers have an attitude.
The rest are even more ridiculous. They are the sin of the spies. Of course, if people are already in mid-life and cannot start a business it is hard to start over. They missed the train so they have to wait for the next one (when they retire). If someone must take care of elderly parents who cannot make aliya themselves they also have a heter. There may be other individuals who have heterim. However, the default position is that a Jew must live in EY.November 10, 2015 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #1112837
that is a good reasonNovember 10, 2015 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #1112838
reb moshe lived in america before religious jewry was significant in israel, so it could be at the time it was not an optionNovember 10, 2015 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1112839
reb moshe lived in america before religious jewry was significant in israel, so it could be at the time it was not an option
And Rav Mordechai Gifter, Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, Rav Avigdor Miller, Rav Avraham Pam, Rav Yitzchok Hutner, Rav Gedalia Schorr, the Bobover Rebbe, the Satmar Rebbe, the Skulener Rebbe, Rav Elya Svei, Rav Joseph B. Soloveitchik, Rav Hershel Schachter and the many more I didn’t mention including many current Gedolei Yisroel shlit”a?November 10, 2015 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1112840
It is uncertain that there’s a mitzvah to live in eretz yisrael nowadays.
(Here’s one marah makom: Tosafos k’suvos 110b d”h ??? ???? ?????)November 10, 2015 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1112841
I dont follow, you say “The only reason why most orthodox jews choose to live outside of Eretz Yisroel, Is Financial or gashmiyus”
but then you list several examples that are not financial nor gashmiyus related:
“For some it may be hard to adjust to israeli attitude.”
“For some, Living in a semi developed country is very difficult”.
“For Some, It’s simply the zionists”
“Some are scared of the rockets”November 10, 2015 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1112842
In answer to the original question:
Eretz Yisrael has been overrun by uncouth vulgar barbarians with disgusting habits who will stop at nothing to uproot Torah, and about whom there is little we are able or even willing to do about it.
Not to mention the country is under constant attack by very annoying Yismaelim.November 10, 2015 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1112843
I live in Eretz Yisroel and its the best place EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!11
But seriously, think it through when you have teens. There’s a 50 percent chance I would of gone OTD, true- I didn’t. I managed to almost finish high school without doing anything crazy. (Still got a few months left..) but seriously. You can destroy people this way.
Ask a Rav. That’s a legit reasons to stay in chul.
The real question is, why didn’t you move before you had kids?November 10, 2015 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1112844
Thats true, but in spite of that the Zionist government supports them financially anywayNovember 10, 2015 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1112845
these list of Tzaddikim were sent by hashem to guide us throughout our lives.
Do you think if all gedolei Hador only lived in Israel. the yidden of Chutz La’aretz could manage & remain frum? no rebbe’s no roshei Yeshiva or mashgichim etc…November 10, 2015 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1112846
why do Rabanim live in chul nowadays??? In order to guide yidden who live in eretz yisrael. (Or they are just satmar)November 11, 2015 1:09 am at 1:09 am #1112847
No one needs an excuse to live in golus during golus. When Moshiach comes he will gather us.November 11, 2015 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1112848
The Lubavitcher rebbe counseled many rabbis and other community leaders not to make aliyah, because otherwise they would no longer be able to have positive influences on the Jews they left behind in chutz la’aretz.
Aside from that, most of us don’t really have any excuse aside from convenience. If most of us were to uproot ourselves and give ourselves a few years to try to live in Israel, learning the language and finding an income and so on, most of us would find we can make it. It would just mean a few years of uncertainty and adjustment difficulties. In some places most are Anglos and you can get by with English much of the time.
There are extremes in Israel but there are also those in between. There are certainly American-style moderate charedim. There are even neighborhoods full of them. The dati leumi are increasingly frum (and less rationalist than MO, due to R’ Kook’s mysticism). Most “chilonim” are more religious (and far more likely to be halachically Jewish) the Reform or Conservative Jews here (the vast majority of chilonim fast on Yom Kippur.) There’s a tiny minority of radical leftist self-haters but most of the non-Orthodox are relatively traditional and respectful toward religion.
Terrorism is a problem, but the murder rate is still much higher in America. And I’d trust the IDF to keep me safe more than the American military any day (here more likely to make us less safe by engaging in unnecessary wars).
The main thing is assimilation. If your kids c”v’s go OTD in Israel they will most likely still marry other Jews and have Jewish grandchildren. It is only a matter of time before Israeli is majority Orthodox, which will eventually inspire those grandchildren to make teshuvah. In America OTD kids marry non-Jews, have non-Jewish grandchildren, and are lost to the Jewish people forever.
How many more millions of us need to assimilate before we get the message and move to the Jewish state?November 11, 2015 2:37 am at 2:37 am #1112849
Many of us have large school debts that we could never pay on an Israeli salary. And it is asur to deliberately refuse to pay debts that you owe.November 11, 2015 5:03 am at 5:03 am #1112850
To Sacred Driver Delight,
You said, “It is uncertain that there’s a mitzvah to live in eretz yisrael nowadays.” Please look in the Pe’at Hashulchan. I don’t have the sefer in front of me, but I seem to remember that he brings that there definitely is a mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisroel today. The only machlokes is whether it is D’oraisa or D’Rabannan. This depends on the machlokes Rambam vs. Ramban which goes back to the machlokes Tanaim about Kudsha L’shaysa vs. Kudsha L’atid Lavo.November 11, 2015 5:17 am at 5:17 am #1112851
I guess he is sacred.November 11, 2015 6:47 am at 6:47 am #1112852
Wow. So much irrationality and even nonsense in so few posts. Even the title of the post is absurd. A much better question, of course, is does anyone have a good excuse to move to the portion of E”Y that the Zionists invaded given that Zionism is shmad and that the Zionists have riled up the savages in the region, etc.
Let’s start with a paraphrase from Rabbi Herschel Schachter himself from a recent Yom HaAtzamos lecture:
If a person’s learning, ruchnius, etc. will be better in chutz LaAretz then he should certainly stay in chutz laAretz.
So the question posed in the title is absurd; even RHS would tell you to stay for those reasons.
Now lets go, lihavdil, to Traditional Orthodoxy.
The Brisker Rav noted: Two things are certain: Zionism is A”Z and all who live in E”Y stumble in Zionism.
Consider that for a moment. Are you sure you want to stumble in A”Z when there is a viable alternative?
The answer, of course, is that Zionist idolatry does not allow the MO/”RZ”s to consider that there is an alternative to stumbling in that idolatry even as they live in Teaneck or wherever else. On the contrary, “making aliyah” is perhaps the greatest mitzvah in their theology, just like Zionism takes precedence over Jewish lives in Zionist theology. It’s sad, really.November 11, 2015 6:48 am at 6:48 am #1112853
Since someone brought up intermarriage:
First, those statistics of American intermarriage are regarding Jews who never had a Jewish education. So this is irrelevant.
But, while on the topic, if a woman goes off the derech in E”Y she is NOT likely to marry a Jew; unfortunately, in many cases, girls “married” a Muslim Arab and went through living hell including bearing children from that savage who’d beat her and treat her like trash until some compassionate and daring Jews would manage to get her out of the hell-hole in which she lived. Not to mention that Arabs are the cashiers, the workers, etc. fully integrated into the Jewish societies in E”Y, and they know how to flatter women…
So, in Israel, there are organizations dedicated to freeing these naive women from their Arab masters and tormentors in Israel, and nothing remotely like that anywhere else in the world. Yet you absurdly claim that chutz laAretz is the concern?
The idolatry of Zionism is so strong that people say and do the most illogical and strangest things and don’t even understand that, were it not for the A”Z, they would seem to be under some influence of some very strong substances.
But that’s what A”Z does to a person. In case anyone wonders how it was in Eliyahu HaNavi’s time that only 600 people did not bow to baal, one need only look at the immense confusion wrought by Zionism on so many otherwise intelligent people.November 11, 2015 6:55 am at 6:55 am #1112854
The Brisker Rav noted: Two things are certain: Zionism is A”Z and all who live in E”Y stumble in Zionism.
So everyone who lived or lives in E.Y. stumbles in A”Z, including the Brisker Rov???November 11, 2015 11:47 am at 11:47 am #1112855
akuperna: Those “uncouth vulgar barbarians with disgusting habits who will stop at nothing to uproot Torah ve funded Torah learning more than anyone else in history.
You persist in the outright lie that they are trying to destroy Torah. The original secular zionists no longer exist and even they funded Torah, for whatever their motivations were.
zahavasdad: Rabbi Pinchas Winston writes extensively about these issues. As far as people in circumstance beyond their control, one of which you mentioned, he says that even if someone can’t make Aliyah as a result, they should at least want to do so.November 11, 2015 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1112856
I’m more than willing to entertain the notion that zionism could be classified in our times as avodah zara, however what about the Rambam hilchot melachim u’milchot perek 5
????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???”? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?”? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?’ ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?????????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????
And as far as the gedolim listed that lived in Chu”l, I would venture to guess that most if not all of them chose to live there because of their communities that needed their guidance. The Baal Shem Tov is not a ra’yah and adaraba – he davka tried to get to E”Y but was prevented from Shemayim. I have an English biography on Rebbe Yoel m’Satmar that says he lived for some time in Yerushalayim and personally wanted to stay the rest of his life but decided to go back out of a sense of responsibility to all his chassidim in America.November 11, 2015 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1112857
gavra_at_workParticipantNovember 11, 2015 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1112858
assurnet – “And as far as the gedolim listed that lived in Chu”l, I would venture to guess that most if not all of them chose to live there because of their communities that needed their guidance.”
So this is enough of a reason to be – ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?”? – I don’t think so! So there must be another reason(s). How about this one -“that zionism could be classified in our times as avodah zara”?!?November 11, 2015 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1112859
‘On the contrary, “making aliyah” is perhaps the greatest mitzvah in their theology’
The source for that is Chazal.November 11, 2015 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1112861
“And I’d trust the IDF to keep me safe more than the American military any day (here more likely to make us less safe by engaging in unnecessary wars).”
Do not EVER blame the American military for getting us into unnecessary wars. They follow the orders of the elected civilians like George W. Bush.
Especially on Veterans Day.November 11, 2015 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1112862
BarryLS1 – “you persist in the outright lie that they are trying to destroy Torah. The original secular zionists no longer exist and even they funded Torah, for whatever their motivations were.”
In reality, they are still doing it! See CR title – “Torah vs. IDF – post #3”.November 11, 2015 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1112863
Rav Kook explained taht in his time they were rebelling against a misconception of Tora. Today they are much more ignorant. On the other hand,having hit bottom they are now thirsting for Tora. Shuls are even being established on HaShomer HaTzair kibbutzim.
[is the fulfillment of a commandment]November 11, 2015 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1112864
I “stumbled in Zionism” as a child: my day school was unmistakably Eretz Yisroel oriented, full of teachers that were Israeli yordim. (ironic) One set of my grandparents retired for the second time to EY. My parents were olim late in their careers and worked for some years. I made the move in my 40s, and have been able to transfer my livelihood, such as it is. I sometimes get used to the local attitude, but not always. I came here for a lift in ruchnius. With a touch of ESP that runs in the family, I saw the US in spiritual decline and in a downward spiral of economic in-sustainability. I had an opportunity to make the move before the US housing bubble popped.
For me, “Zionism” is the connection of mitzva observance with the land (Ramban parshat kedoshim) There is the concept of ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? That we are meant to live here, and if sovereign, to have a system of government. (Rambam hilchot melachim) The current government is less than halachically acceptable, but so was the rule of the Hasmoneans. If you dismiss Jewish sovereignty of even bad character, perhaps you should reconsider celebrating Chanuka.
As for the economic hardship, people of the old yishuv. the Chachmei provence, the talmidim of the Gra, the aliya of chassidim, these people faced horrific starvation, disease and want. It did not deter them. I would figure that the current gap in income to compared to chul is greater than seah b seataim, but that standard is edited (bame devarim amurim) to when there is nothing to be had at any price. There are gashmiut things that are hard to come by, but not all critical to a modest lifestyle, and it is a lacking is kvod EY to express the lack of basic needs. (Torat MOshe Shoftim/ mi hoish)November 11, 2015 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #1112865
twisted: The Chanukah neis has nothing to do with the Hasmoneans subsequent rulership. Indeed Chazal are critical of the Hasmonean for taking the reigns of power since they were Kohanim not Davidians. Additionally, the bad behavior of the Hasmonean rulers were of later generation Hasmoneans not the ones that defeated the Yevonim.November 11, 2015 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #1112866
As jews, we must help turn israel from a developing country into a dveloped one, by moving there, thus enlarging the economy and employment,November 11, 2015 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1112867
twisted: The Chanukah neis has nothing to do with the Hasmoneans subsequent rulership. Indeed Chazal are critical of the Hasmonean for taking the reigns of power since they were Kohanim not Davidians. Additionally, the bad behavior of the Hasmonean rulers were of later generation Hasmoneans not the ones that defeated the Yevonim.
From the Rambam Laws of Chanukah (and yes, even though they did other things wrong as you correctly point out, the reason for the holiday is ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ???)
???? ??? ?????? ????, ???? ?????? ?? ?????, ?????? ???, ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???????; ????? ??? ??????, ?????????; ?????? ?????, ????? ?? ?????, ?????? ??????. ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??????, ?????? ??? ????, ?? ????? ????? ????? ???????, ??????? ????. ????? ??? ??????? ??????? ???????, ?????? ??????? ????? ????; ??????? ??? ?? ???????, ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ???–?? ?????? ????November 11, 2015 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1112868
Avi K – “Today they are much more ignorant”
Wrong. The ones that went with Lapid were the RZ – the Mizrachi. They changed the law from the status quo. They claim they are Frum.
And there is No Milchemes Mitzvah, like I’ve seen you post previously!November 11, 2015 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #1112869
It is extremely rare for an Israeli Jew to marry an Arab. It is extremely common, indeed the norm, for secular American Jews to marry non-Jews. There are plenty of people who go off the OTD, rachmana litzan, even with good Jewish educations, and I’ve never heard any evidence that they’re less likely to marry non-Jews than other secular Jews.November 12, 2015 1:22 am at 1:22 am #1112870
Yytz – “There are plenty of people who go off the OTD, rachmana litzan, “
Let’s say you’re right, that would be for kids, not for me. I’m not going OTD, so why should I be exposed to Avodah Zara? Nowadays when they are forcing the Charaidim into the Army, it’s a Shailah of Yeharog V’al Yavorr!November 12, 2015 2:26 am at 2:26 am #1112871
The Russian gentiles who moved to Israel, many of whom have a fake State conversion and many who don’t, frequently intermarry R”L with Israeli Jews.
There are plenty of people who go off the OTD, rachmana litzan, even with good Jewish educations, and I’ve never heard any evidence that they’re less likely to marry non-Jews than other secular Jews.
OTDs are far less likely to marry a gentile than secular or Reform/Conservative Jew. The ones intermarrying are far more likely to have left Torah Judaism multiple generations before the person with whom intermarriage r’l occurs.November 12, 2015 2:32 am at 2:32 am #1112872
I understand the idea that if you’re learning (or for that matter other mitzvot observance) is better here then you shouldn’t make aliyah. But it doesn’t necessarily make sense to think about that in the short term. It may take a while to find a new chavrusa or beis midrash or Rov, but there’s no reason to think that in general one’s learning would be better here.
One might be drafted, but defending the land of Israel is also a mitzvah, and since one cannot come into harm through fulfilling a mitzvah, this shouldn’t concern us either.
In addition, once you are fluent in modern Hebrew, one’s fluency in Biblical/rabbinic Hebrew will also increase. Just think how much more advanced your children’s learning could be if they grow up speaking modern Hebrew fluently. I see it in my own kids’ classes here — the Israeli kids in their school are way ahead because they don’t need to bother with learning how to translate Chumash.November 12, 2015 7:22 am at 7:22 am #1112873
Health, in my halachic universe, the Rambam looms large. His definition of milchemes mitzva include “lezras yisroel mtzar haba aleihem” This cam mean responding to rocket fire from Aza, or taking necessary measures against the misbehaving inbreeds train from childhood to engage in jihad. I sense you might disagree. It is all about context.November 12, 2015 8:55 am at 8:55 am #1112874
yytz: Absolutely right. Growing up in the States and going to Yeshiva, to see the level of learning the children have in Israel boggles the mind. There is no comparison. My only regret is that I didn’t raise my children in Eretz Yisroel, though most live here now.November 12, 2015 9:42 am at 9:42 am #1112875
Health – “So this is enough of a reason to be – ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?”? – I don’t think so! So there must be another reason(s). How about this one -“that zionism could be classified in our times as avodah zara”?!?”
One of the three exceptions the Rambam lists for allowing people to leave E”Y is to learn Torah. I’m not a posek but it seems like you could make a kal v’chomer that if it’s muttar to leave to learn then it should be muttar to leave in order to teach.
I think you are mixing up loving and living in E”Y with zionism l’havdil. Just because someone chooses to live in Israel instead of moving to Chu”l does by no means classify them as a zionist. The Eida haCharedis operates out of Yerushalayim and is probably the biggest private kashrus hashgacha in the country… are you suggesting they are zionist?November 12, 2015 11:32 am at 11:32 am #1112876
This is probably a waste of time, but…
Are you denying that Jewish girls have fallen prey to these savages, married them, and then had to be literally rescued from them? That these organizations solicit money from Jews OUTSIDE E”Y for this? This is not some abstract debatable idea; it’s obviously very real.
By your “logic”, one could choose to settle in some Arab hell hole refugee camp in E”Y and claim that since they’re doing a mitzva of settling the land that they can come to no harm.
But your logic is already proven to be not true based on all the rivers of Jewish blood spilled in E”Y, HY”D, the blood of people who were doing that (allegedly in-force) mitzvah of settling the land. Yet that didn’t stop Hashem from allowing all the savage attacks in His holy land.
And when you claim that one “need not worry that his Torah will suffer”, I guess you feel you know better than Rabbi Herschel Schachter who claimed that one SHOULD have that concern.
Next, what, exactly, does the land need defending from? The land does not seem in any danger. Do you mean to say that defending the State of Israel is a mitzva? Clearly, the gedolim have ruled decades ago that this is not so.
As to the gemara in Kesubos that you quoted, as mentioned, RHS was surely aware of that gemara yet he still stated that you should NOT live in E”Y if it will negatively affect your ruchnius, etc.
Zionism is heresy and idolatry and the Zionists have no answers.November 12, 2015 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1112877
I am coming here knowing that the OP may attempt to refute whatever I say, and whether his arguments make sense, I realize it’s not worth arguing back. The OP seems very set in his ways.
“Eretz Yisrael has been overrun by uncouth vulgar barbarians with disgusting habits who will stop at nothing to uproot Torah, and about whom there is little we are able or even willing to do about it.
Not to mention the country is under constant attack by very annoying Yismaelim.” – akuperma
As someone who has lived in Israel in B”H a time of relative quiet, I have to agree with akuperma on this one.
I love the Holy Land, but I see no compelling reason to live there, especially now.
My dear friends who still live in the state of Israel assure me constantly that a) it’s actually really safe in Israel right now, despite all that silly the “propaganda” the media is propagating about terrorism in Israel right now, and b) we should all leave America because the very same things that are going on in Israel right now could happen here.
Well, they’re happening in Israel right now on a very grand scale, believe it or not. Here, not so much, if at all. I live here, so I know. Right now, at this very moment in time, I am a lot safer living “chutz la’aretz.” (It cracks me up how for some, the whole world revolves around Israel. Everywhere and everyone else is just a “chutznick.”)
How many murdered yeshiva bochurim, Jewish girls who fall trap to the sadistic young Ibrahims and Youssefs of the Muslim community, whole families being murdered in their sleep, and innocent pedestrians getting stabbed and maimed in the streets, will it take before people realize just how flipping unsafe (and STUPID) it is to live in Israel right now? And that’s just physical danger. Spiritual danger is a WHOLE other story!
You may say I’m living in a bubble, that I’m blocking out all rhyme and reason propagated by the good religious Zionists, encouraging me to save my soul before America goes boom. (Some, dual citizens of the US and Israel, speak of such an idea with such relish, it makes me sick.) I say that aliyah-pushers should take a good look at their own backyard and realize the first place that would go kablooey in a Muslim anti-Israeli/anti-Semitic attack is the so-called Jewish State. Don’t give me your anti-American fear-mongering headcanons. Israeli-American dual citizens especially, I (like most Americans) don’t like President Obama or his policies any more than you do, but you should be ASHAMED of yourselves with the evil you wish daily on your fellow Jewish American people.
I hope and pray that Hashem will continue to watch over every Jew in the world, from Israel, to America, to Madagascar, and the moon. And if I had a dollar for every time someone has told me G-d only watches over the Jews Israel, I could buy plane tickets to fly all my Israeli family and friends (and even my frenemies) to real safety!November 12, 2015 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #1112878
Hakatan: What some gedolim ruled decades ago does not necessarily answer today’s circumstance. What is your alternative to the current governmet. The Ottoman Turks are no longer available, I trust you don’t live in the La La Land that is home to our errant brothers the NK. Lets not frame this as Zionism. We have a huge community of “normal” Jews who are machshiv the spiritual benefits, who love the land, who hold by the deos that it is a kiyum mitzva, who are macshiv a government that had maalos and hesronos over anarchy or dhimmitude. I would be open to suggestions for a suitable acrostic.November 12, 2015 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #1112879
RE: leaving EY to learn Torah. The Sifri reference by Ytz loosely tranlated by yours truly
A maaseh with Rabbi Yehuda ben Beseira, Rabbi Masiah ben Harash, Rabbi Hanania bar Ahi,Rabbi Yehoshua and Rabbi Yehonasan, who were going to hutz laaretz (reason unspecified) When they reached Paltom, they remembered Erez Yisrael and lifted their eyes, and they wept. They read (recalled) the mikra “that you shall inherit them, and dwell in their land (devarim 19) that dwelling in EY is weighted against all the mitzvot. They reversed and went back to their place.
A maaseh with Rabbi Elazar ben Shamua and Rabbi Yohanan Hasandlar who were going to learn Torah with Rabi Yehuda ben Beseira. They reached Tzidon, remembered Eretz Yisrael, wept, and returned home.]
It is notable that in the second tale, Rabbi Yehuda ben Beseira had obviously overcome his original reticence to leave, as he was one of the travelers in the first tale. The point remains, that there were those who could not leave EY even for talmud torah, This was the dor shel shmad, they had lost sovereignty to the Romans, and it was for the survival of Torah that some went chu’l to set up Torah centers out of the reach of the Romans. Rabbi Hananya be Ahi is also mentioned as setting up in chu’l, a team was sent to him to put him in nidui for setting years and iburim in chu’lNovember 12, 2015 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #1112880
I belive the Satmar Rebbe forbid people from leaving Hungary/Romania before World War II
Obviously after the war he changed him mind.
In fact most gedolim forbid moving to either the United States or israel before World War II, yet ALL of them obviously changed their minds. It would be hard to find a tshuva forbidding moving to NY and it would sound silly to quote such a tshuva today as halachaNovember 12, 2015 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1112881
Would those demanding all Jews move to Israel have made the same demand during the times the Christian Crusaders controlled it?November 12, 2015 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #1112882
Barry – “Growing up in the States and going to Yeshiva, to see the level of learning the children have in Israel boggles the mind. There is no comparison. My only regret is that I didn’t raise my children in Eretz Yisroel, though most live here now.”
You see – you didn’t go to the right Yeshivas!November 12, 2015 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1112883
Bookworm120 – you have touched on an issue that I feel many people lack a lot of intellectual honesty with – is Eretz Yisrael really safer or not. Statistically speaking I’m not sure if it’s safer or not in a general way (they say the chances of getting killed in terrorism here are still lower than from a traffic accident but that could just say something really bad about Israeli drivers). However I personally have come to the conclusion that the odds of getting chalila getting injured or killed solely for being Jewish is higher here than any other place in the world (with France probably coming in second place these days) and on a pashtus level it seems that is because of zionism. Possibly even most anti-semetic attacks in chu”l are a result of zionism. I’m not basing that statement on any rabid anti-zionist neturei karta ideology – I’m just basing it on what the people who carry out these attacks tend to themselves say is their reason.
We have to be honest with ourselves – one shouldn’t choose to live in E”Y because they think it’s safer. The choice should be based on if that person feels it’s ratzon Hashem and it will allow them to live a life more connected to Him. For myself and my wife we feel it’s something worth being somewhat moser nefesh for. I do leave the house for work every day knowing there is a possibility I might not make it back that night G-d forbid, however that possibility isn’t grave enough to prevent me from doing it every day. And if it’s Hashem’s will that chalila some guy pulls out a knife/gun/bomb/whatever, at least I can die with the comfort that I lived in a place I loved – not because it’s necessarily the nicest place to live but because it’s the place Hashem gave me as a yid.
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